Reflections on the USS Liberty and Gilad Shalit: Disproportionate Response

-

uss-liberty.jpg
A group of armed Palestinians, some connected to the militant wing of Hamas, did penetrate Israel’s border security and did kidnap a young soldier, Gilad Shalit. Those who defend the action say that it was in response to Israel’s killing 7 members of an innocent Palestinian family. It was wrong to kidnap the soldier — absolutely wrong, and the G-8 leaders have said that; but they have also condemned Israel’s perceived disregard for the safety and value of innocent Palestinian lives.
Since then, Israel has been on a rampage and has permitted emotion and knee-jerk, overzealous responses prevail over measured and sober approaches that might not have only helped get the Israeli soldier freed but made some progress in establishing a climate to talk about the bigger picture of an Israeli-Palestinian solution.
Now Israel is not only blowing up bridges and power plants but has arrested dozens of Hamas ministers and lawmakers. Israel is arresting symbols of the Palestinian government — and edging this situation to potential full-out war. Condi Rice is urging restraint, but Israel seems out of control.
Americans have a lot to be thankful for that they didn’t live under this Israeli government during the Cold War because the hot-headed, lack of restraint would have surely led to a nuclear exchange with the Soviets if Israel had been at the helm.
Israel would do well to go reacquaint itself with the USS Liberty, which Israelis fired on killing American servicemen. I have had a discussion with someone who was the former head of the U.S. National Security Agency who has no doubt at all that Israel’s attack on the U.S. ship was purposeful and not an accident, as Israelis and Americans eager to cover up the incident have asserted.
America’s response was measured and put in context — whether one agrees with that or not. Israel got a huge pass.
Israel is demonstrating profound immaturity with its behavior, though I support the importance of negotiating and even pursuing its kidnapped soldier. However, despite its regional superpower status, Israel is showing that it tilts too easily towards responses far disproportionate to any sane or reasonable action. While Israel radicalizes Palestininans and many Arabs in the region with this behavior, it needs to know that it is eroding American support for its behavior and position.
Lines must be drawn — and Israel is way over the line now.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

118 comments on “Reflections on the USS Liberty and Gilad Shalit: Disproportionate Response

  1. steven says:

    shame on you for twisting this tragic reality, steve!
    here is the truth of the matter:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html#j
    MYTH
    “During the 1967 War, Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty.”
    FACT
    The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.
    On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty’s crew and wounding 171.
    Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty’s flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.
    According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin’s memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.28 The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels.29 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.
    A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.
    The Joint Chiefs of Staff investigated the communications failure and noted that the Chief of Naval Operations expressed concern about the prudence of sending the Liberty so close to the area of hostilities and four messages were subsequently sent instructing the ship to move farther away from the area of hostilities. The JCS report said the messages were never received because of “a combination of (1) human error, (2) high volume of communications traffic, and (3) lack of appreciation of sense of urgency regarding the movement of the Liberty.” The report also included a copy of a flash cable sent immediately after the attack, which reported that Israel had “erroneously” attacked the Liberty, that IDF helicopters were in rescue operations, and that Israel had sent “abject apologies” and requested information on any other U.S. ships near the war zone.
    Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting.30 Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty.
    The Israelis were “obviously shocked” by the error they made in attacking the ship, according to the U.S. Ambassador in Tel Aviv. In fact, according to a secret report on the 1967 war, the immediate concern was that the Arabs might see the proximity of the Liberty to the conflict as evidence of U.S.-Israel collusion.30a
    Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.31 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a “case of mistaken identity.” Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.
    Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. Tapes of the radio transmissions made prior, during and after the attack do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack. During the attack, a pilot specifically says, “there is no flag on her!” The recordings also indicate that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack and they were given an order to leave the area. A transcript of the radio transmissions indicates the entire incident, beginning with the spotting of a mysterious vessel off El Arish and ending with the chief air controller at general headquarters in Tel Aviv telling another controller the ship was “apparently American” took 24 minutes.32 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version.
    A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the “Egyptian warship” that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. “Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian,” the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.33
    In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector, a triple ace, who shot down 15 enemy aircraft and took part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. “This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn’t one of ours.” The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector’s radio transmission in which he said, “I can’t identify it, but in any case it’s a military ship.”34
    None of Israel’s accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel’s only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.
    Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.35
    Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn’t know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.”
    Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.”
    In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “cover­up.”36
    In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence “strongly suggested” Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.37
    The new documents do not shed any light on the mystery of what the ship was doing in the area or why Israel was not informed about its presence. The evidence suggests the ship was not spying on Israel.
    Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.
    Notes
    1Encyclopedia Americana Annual 1961, (NY: Americana Corporation, 1961), p. 387.
    2Yehoshafat Harkabi, Arab Attitudes To Israel, (Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1972), p. 27.
    3Howard Sachar, A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time, (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1979), p. 616.
    4Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1985), pp. 10-11, 185.
    5Netanel Lorch, One Long War, (Jerusalem: Keter, 1976), p. 110.
    6Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 60.
    7Ibid.
    8Abba Eban, Abba Eban, (NY: Random House, 1977 p. 330.
    9Leibler, p. 60.
    10Leibler, p. 18.
    11Leibler, p. 60.
    12Leibler, p. 18.
    13Chaim Herzog, The Arab-Israeli Wars, (NY: Random House, 1982), p. 149.
    14United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea, (Geneva: UN Publications 1958), pp. 132-134.
    15Yehuda Lukacs, Documents on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 1967-1983, (NY: Cambridge University Press, 1984), pp. 17-18; Eban, p. 358
    16Lyndon B. Johnson, The Vantage Point: Perspectives of the Presidency 1963-1969, (NY: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971), p. 293.
    17AP, (June 5, 1967).
    18Sachar, p. 629.
    19Katz, p. 3.
    20Jerusalem Post, (April 23, 1999).
    21Encyclopedia Americana Annual 1968, p. 366.
    22George Gruen, “The Refugees of Arab-Israeli Conflict,” (NY: American Jewish Committee, March 1969), p. 5.
    23Gruen, p. 5.
    24Gruen, p. 4.
    25Encyclopedia Americana Annual 1968, p. 366.
    26Don Peretz, “Israel’s New Dilemma,” Middle East Journal, (Winter 1968), pp. 45-46.
    27Lyndon B. Johnson, Public Papers of the President, (DC: GPO 1968), p. 683.
    28For the most comprehensive analysis, see A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (Washington, D.C.: Brassey’s Inc., 2002);Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, (CA: University of California Press, 1996), pp. 108-109.
    29Rabin, p. 110.
    30Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, (NY: HarperCollins, 1998), pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109.
    30a“United States Policy and Diplmacy in the Middle East Crisis, May 15-June 10, 1967,” declassified secret document, Lyndon Johnson Presidential Library, pp. 143-144.
    31Washington Post, (November 6, 1991).
    32Hirsh Goodman, “Messrs. Errors and No Facts,” Jerusalem Report, (November 21, 1991); Arieh O’ Sullivan, “Exclusive: Liberty attack tapes revelead,” Jerusalem Post, (June 3, 2004) .
    33Nathan Guttman, “Memos show Liberty attack was an error,” Ha’aretz, (July 9, 2003).
    34“Pilot who bombed ‘Liberty’ talks to ‘Post,” Jerusalem Post (October 10, 2003).
    35Hirsh Goodman and Ze’ev Schiff, “The Attack on the Liberty,” Atlantic Monthly, (September 1984).
    36“The Larry King Show” (radio), (February 5, 1987).
    37Jerusalem Post, (January 13, 2004); Washington Times, (January 13, 2004).

    Reply

  2. James Civil says:

    Are you hipocrits afraid? forgot September 11th? was it US, the israeli jews that blew your Twin towers?
    was it US , the israeli jews, that blew up the underground in London? or the Atocha station in Madrid?
    Is it us israeli jews that have 12 kids even when we’re broke?
    Is it us israeli jews that refuse to blend with the western society even when we live within it?
    IS IT US ISRAELI JEWS YOU HATE SO MUCH?

    Reply

  3. RK says:

    Wow! The Israel haters and anti-semites are out in full force! Nothing but blood libels, especially the sickest one of all, comparing the Jews to Nazis. Absolutely vicious, sick and anti-semitic.
    No one mentions the deaths of Israelis by Palestinian rockets, yet an early CNN report of a family ALLEGEDLY killed by Israelis trying to hit the terrorists launching missiles, earns instant credibility by the haters on this site.
    Of course most of this criticism IS anti-semitic–anyone who denies the right of Jews to engage in legitimate and appropriate self-defense is employing a double-standard and, as such, it is anti-semitic.
    Of course, this string of vitriol was set up by an over-the-top blog post by some bscure “expert” Clemons, whom I’ve never heard of ed on a link. More kooky nonsense from the fringe left of the Democratic Party–the fringe left with disproportionate influence and which has done so much to relegate this once fine party to permanent minority status.

    Reply

  4. passingthru says:

    Wow. You have “with someone who was the former head of the U.S. National Security Agency who has no doubt at all that Israel’s attack on the U.S. ship was purposeful and not an accident”?
    Heck, I’m convinced. That’s proof positive! Talk about your empirical, unassailable evidence!
    What kind of bozo weblog is this? You pretend to be a centrist, and pretend that you take no sides, and you slam Israel with a libel like this?
    Yeah. Right. It was totally in Israel’s best interests to attack the ship of the one nation that didn’t spit on them everytime they walked by.
    But you talked to someone who KNOWS. I’m convinced.
    Right.

    Reply

  5. andrew says:

    Zionism is quite like National Socialism. It is a jewish problem and only jews can solve it. So here is the solution, “JEWS TO BOYCOTT ISRAEL”.

    Reply

  6. Jack says:

    Israel hasn’t even begun to respond with as much force as it could or probably should have.
    Since Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza it has been used routinely and consistently as a launching pad for terrorist attacks.
    Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization whose charter and goal calls for the destruction of Israel. You don’t negotiate with people whose purpose is to destroy you.

    Reply

  7. Pissed Off American says:

    POA may or not be an anti-semite jew baiter (I’d bet on him/her being the latter, but that’s just an impression and I’m open to being proven wrong), BUT he/she clearly is an ASSHOLE. Of course, as he/she pointed out that’s not such a big deal.
    Sorry Steve. Not very lady like of me, but a person can only take so much drivel for so long.
    Posted by Sandy
    I know what you mean.
    BTW, thanks for your informative and fact based opinion on the Pal/Isreali issue.

    Reply

  8. Sandy says:

    POA may or not be an anti-semite jew baiter (I’d bet on him/her being the latter, but that’s just an impression and I’m open to being proven wrong), BUT he/she clearly is an ASSHOLE. Of course, as he/she pointed out that’s not such a big deal.
    Sorry Steve. Not very lady like of me, but a person can only take so much drivel for so long.

    Reply

  9. Doctor Biobrain says:

    This was probably already said, but I’m too lazy to read all these comments, but I think this is entirely intentional on Israel’s part. I think this is just an extension of the neo-con’s “crazy f-er” strategy, to teach Palestinians that Israel is just crazy and not to be screwed with. Much like how they think America needs to show how crazy it is, and how we shouldn’t be screwed with. That’s a stupid policy, but these people are known more for their cunning than their brilliance. So in this case, Israel just wants to show how crazy they get over this kind of thing, in order to discourage it. It won’t work, but that’s probably the strategy.
    And secondly, I suspect that part of this is due to a subset of the Israeli power-players who really want to aggrevate the situation. Their idea is to stir-up the hornet’s nest, just to show how angry the hornets can be; which then justifies destroying them. Civilized people need excuses to destroy enemies, and so these people are trying to create that excuse. And again, this is a strategy that similar-minded people are trying to trap us Americans into too. We anger the Muslims so we can justify destroying them and conquering their countries.
    Overall, the “crazy f-er” strategy and the hornet-stirrers are all part of the same thing, and they think that this will work out to their advantage. And now that I think about it, this is also the Rove strategy for domestic politics; though I’m not suggesting that these folks are the same people. But overall, the strategy is to stir things up as quickly as possible in the hopes that they can clear all variables off the table; and thus making it easier to strategize.
    I used to play chess like that because I was a lousy chess player and couldn’t foresee all the various moves; and now I just don’t play chess at all. Because I couldn’t win that way either. And I suspect that these are lousy chess players who are trying to clear the board in hopes that their straight-forward strategy of overwhelming military strength will win-out. It won’t work for them either.

    Reply

  10. DIL says:

    Actually, I earn my living as a lowly software engineer at an institution of higher learning.
    So here’s classic evidence of your personal antisemitism — the accusation of dual loyalties, to wit: ” … both in your government AND in our White House … ” In spite of my clear statements that I am an American, you refuse to recognize me as a citizen, and insist instead that the Israeli government is ‘my’ government. I’ve never been to Israel, never voted in an Israeli election, and have only the loosest affiliation with Jewish organiations (I attend synagogue during the year while my daughter goes to Hebrew school). But, like many American Jews, I continue to see the historically informed necessity for an armed Jewish state, and refuse to apologize for that. For you, that is apparently information enough on which to base accusations of false loyalty, the most classic antisemitic dodge of them all.
    By the way, in spite of your increasingly hysterical paranoia:
    http://people.brandeis.edu/~lieberma/
    The site is a little out of date, but at least provides evidence that, your desperately flailing accusations notwithstanding, I have not falsified my identity or my personal history. (As I’ve said, I was no Audie Murphy. Nevertheless, I was on active duty during the first Gulf War–though, fortunately, I was not deployed. I remember very clearly that Jewish soldiers going to the desert were advised to remove the religious identification from their dog tags; it was anticipated that they might receive “special” treatment in the event that they were taken as POWs if the enemy were to learn the truth of their identity. More recent events have certainly born that out.)
    So, sadly, your deductions as to the source of my stench, imaginative though they may be, fall rather short. My expressions of concern for the violent vilification of Israel are driven entirely by my experience as a Jew (or, if you insist, as a “jew” — I note that apart from this one instance, you do seem perfectly in control of your capitalizations, which lends further circumstantial support to my diagnosis of your condition).
    This bit, by the way, is delightful: “America is waking up to your meddling and your manipulation of our affairs.” I ask again, are you at all aware of the history of the rhetoric you’re toying with here? All you’ve managed to accomplish with this little tirade is to confirm the suspicions of those Jews (including this one) who, conscious of our tendency to fall too easily into a seige mentality, cannot complete convince ourselves that our fears are entirely unjustified. So, thanks.
    David Isadore Lieberman
    (no relation, I’m pleased to say, to the gentleman from Connecticut)

    Reply

  11. Fumanchu says:

    If as some of you say, the state of Israel is needed so that Jews can have a homeland, why the heck don’t you all just move over there? This tyranny over an occupied populace would make more sense if all Jews lived in Israel: If it’s so bad everywhere else that they must have the Palestinians land, at least go live there will you? If it isn’t so can you please just give up on this stupid Zionist adventure that has caused nothing but trouble since it began?

    Reply

  12. Pissed Off American says:

    “…..if the Jews of the United States and Israel really are as awful as Carroll, Frank, Sky-Ho, mangels and you continue to insist they are….”
    Care to show us one single example of where Carrol or I insist Jews are “awful”, either those here, or those in Israel??? Can’t, can you??? No, your empty horseshit is nothing more than a straw argument. There is NO ANTI-SEMITISM in our remarks, nor can you point to any. The comment I made about STENCH was directly focused at YOU, and the criminals currentlty deciding the Israeli policies towards the Palestinians, both in your government AND in our White House. You don’t stink as a jew, you stink as a slimey lying finger pointing deflective TROLL……TASKED to respond to criticism of Israeli policy EXACTLY as you have done on this thread, and as others with the same task are attacking Americans all over the airwaves and the internet. You don’t stink because you are a jew, you stink because you are a liar and a fraud that places Israel’s interests above that of the United States, and you justify it with filthy accusation and arguments founded in the fantasies of your masters’ scripts. We have seen before, and will see again, the tactics you employ to defend Israel’s manipulation of our foreign policies and their bribery of our elected officials. Lies, accusations of anti-semitism, and false patriotism that is both manufactured and despicable. You are fooling very few here, and America is waking up to your meddling and your manipulation of our affairs. We in America DESERVE BETTER, as do the Palestinians, and as do the citizens of Israel. And so do the jews everywhere, for they need not be judged by the actions of fanatics such as yourself and your masters. It is YOU that is betraying the jews, for with your hatred and your despicable tactics of rationalization and justification comes an everlastiing animosity between jews and Palestinians, and a deepening distrust that Americans are feeling towards AIPAC, Israel, and its damaging and destructive meddling in our affairs.

    Reply

  13. DIL says:

    Actually, there are dozens of sound arguments to be made against Israeli policy and military conduct. There are certainly sound arguments for decreasing or even eliminating US assistance to Israel. That said, I don’t think there’s any particular reason to take the UN’s enthusiastic Israel-bashing all that seriously, considering the one-country/one-vote structure of the General Assembly. Most of the nations that make up the GA were, shall we say, less than charitable toward world Jewry during *its* moment of need, and I see no evidence to suggest that anything has changed much on that score. You certainly aren’t providing any, which is why I have yet to feel any obligation to take your questions all that seriously, either. Given your persistently abusive tone, and your obvious penchant for hurling personal accusations from a position of total ignorance, I strongly doubt there is anything the Israelis could do, either as a government or as a population, short of massive self-immolation, that would satisfy your rage. Sadly for the state of your blood pressure, that seems an unlikely development in the near term.
    You’re quite right to note that I’ve never posted to Steve’s comments before now. I happen to have a particular, longstanding interest in the pattern of self-righteous Jew-bashing that emanates from the American political left. I expect a certain amount of racialist nonsense from the right, all that thinly veiled resentment directed at “New York” and “Hollywood,” for instance. That an equally virulent strain also exists on the left, targeted not at “New York” or “Hollywood” but at “Tel-Aviv” and “Jerusalem,” but otherwise all but indistinguishable from its rightwing counterpart, is endlessly fascinating to me, in part because, at least superficially, it is so paradoxical.
    And, of course, it continues to fascinate me that a community such as the one that has emerged in this discussion, whose mistrust of and dislike for Jews is so pronounced, continues to insist that “antisemitism” is a dirty word. Again — if the Jews of the United States and Israel really are as awful as Carroll, Frank, Sky-Ho, mangels and you continue to insist they are, then antisemitism must by definition be a perfectly reasonable, perfectly ethical reactive posture. I fail to understand why it so difficult to say so.

    Reply

  14. Pissed Off American says:

    “Thank you, Sky-Ho and Frank, for illustrating my main points so effectively.”
    — DIL
    Still spitting a bunch of empty horseshit at us, eh, troll? I find it quite telling that you have not commented about the acts of espionage Israel has committed against the USA. Your only response about the UN resolutions that Israel is ignoring was to belittle the UN. The actual statistics about deaths and injuries are ignored by you as well. All you seem capable of doing is playing the “anti-semitic” tune by rote, countering each and every argument against Israel’s policies by droning the same crap at us, over and over and over. How interesting that you only shows up here on this one issue, despite the fact that you claim to be a vet and a patriot. You also make the claim of being against Bush’s Iraq policy, yet you have NEVER posted here under such viewpoints on the appropriate threads, or at least not under your current screen name. Why don’t you scroll on up to the post where I cite the myriad of examples of espionage committed against us by Israel, and take them one by one, explaining to us why we should accept and condone such acts of espionage committed against us. Or explain to us why we should ship Israel millions of dollars weekly while we have thousands upon thousands of New Orleans residents that are indigent and displaced. Or why don’t you address the recent MURDER of the seven beachgoers whose only crime was the seeking of an afternoon of leisure??? Or explain to us how one soldier’s captivity justifies turning off the lights and the water to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Palestinians that HAD NOTHING TO DO with his kidnapping???
    Or hey, you can just continue to drool the empty horseshit that you have been tasked to drool. Thats my bet.

    Reply

  15. DIL says:

    Thank you, Sky-Ho and Frank, for illustrating my main points so effectively.
    — DIL

    Reply

  16. Frank says:

    Stirred up a hornet’s nest of too long a suppressed indignation, and disgust with Israel’s antics..We have lost lives and treasure because of their behaviour. As a nation, they are bringing new meaning to the term “axis of evil” .

    Reply

  17. Sky-Ho says:

    I, for one, would like to see regime change in Isreal.
    You’d think, after sixty years (60) of doing the same thing, pissing on their neighbors, they’d try something different.
    Side note: The Old Testament (you know, the part that applies to the Jew), in several places, God reserves the right to exact vengence. Even David respected that right when dealing with Saul.
    Perhaps, were the Jews of Isreal to try following their own historical documents (you know, the ones they use to “justify” their “country”) things might start working out for them.
    Perhaps the suicide bombers are sent by God to punish the Jews for not following their own Bible?

    Reply

  18. Anonymous Diplomat says:

    Dear Steve:
    I think you missed your point with the Liberty post.
    The most apposite factor at the moment is to remember that the Israelis very likely destroyed the USS Liberty because they were afraid it was going to find out about their massacre of unarmed and surrendered Egyptian PW at El Arish (which was happening as the Liberty steamed 12 miles off El Arish). The Israelis have a very good idea why they did what they did, its just that the United States remains in deep denial.

    Reply

  19. DIL says:

    POA: “Its where we ALWAYS end up in these bullshit charades that you trolls consistently engage in. Attack your opponents patriotism, claim to be an American hero..ad nauseum.”
    Well, I’m reasonably certain I said nothing at all about your patriotism, one way or the other. Your evident defensiveness on this score is a matter of whatever is going on in your own mind, and has no antecedant in anything I have claimed. Nor did I claim to be a “hero” — in fact, I’m more than reasonably certain that as a soldier I was unlikely ever to have been mistaken for Audie Murphy. I mentioned my service experience purely by way of illuminating my skepticism regarding Bush’s Iraq adventure. Moreover, for all your apparent conviction that I have cast aspersions on your service experience (of which I have said nothing because, as you rightly note, I know nothing), you seem to have no qualms at all about making accusations from a position of total ignorance, to wit:
    “But hey, asshole, if you want to make this an argument about racism why don’t you shag your red white and blue ass straight to the capitol and demand the billions that are being sent to Israel get sent to the blacks in New Orleans instead, eh?”
    You may make whatever assumptions you like as to how I have or have not engaged with my congressional representatives on this or any other issue, but you should know that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
    POA: “The ‘jews’ aren’t the problem in Israel, its the fucking fanatics and zealots making policy that are the problem.” An interesting point. Of course, the Israeli government is democratically elected. Tell me, were you among those who insisted that Israel had to accept Hamas as the legitimate ruling party in the PA because it was democratically elected? If so, why do you deny Israelis the same right to self-representation?
    POA, on whether I ought to migrate to Israel: “Actually, I am all for it. Why don’t you do us all a favor and SWIM over?” Ah. So you would like to drive me into the sea, then?
    POA: “being called a ‘jew baiter’ or being accused of being ‘anti-semitic’ is a FAR WORSE slur than being labeled a mere asshole.” Really? Why? (I mean the question seriously. See below.)
    POA: “So, in return, perhaps DIL will now show us were I have clearly shown myself to be a ‘anti-semitic’, a ‘jew hater’ or a ‘jew baiter’.” Well, as Steve Clemons has also pointed out, accusations of “evil” and “stench” go a long way toward making the case.
    Finally, a couple of points in response to mangels, who wrote, “You are but small minority who thinks the world hates the Jew….who thinks that anti-Semitism is psychological condition of the Gentile, and the only safe sancturary for Jews living in the hateful Gentile world is Israel.”
    Actually, I think antisemitism is a profoundly complex, remarkably resilient phenomenon, driven largely by contemporary social and political factors at any given historical moment but informed by traditions of exclusion and group identity formation dating to the late Roman empire and the anxieties surrounding the precarious institutional status of the early Christian church.
    mangel: “Without hatred of Jews there is no Israel….no Zionism.” This is almost certainly true. But surely you don’t mean to suggest that the perception of early Zionists such as Herzl that antisemitism was a rising political force throughout Central and Eastern Europe in the late 19th century was pure fantasy? If so, then you must conclude that much of the history of the 20th century involving Jews has been wholly fabricated, a colossal lie put forth by a wholly unethical people determined to bend the world to their will. If you truly believe antisemitism is now and has for the last hundred years or so been largely fictitous, then you must also believe Jews are essentially a race of liars. What’s more, they are a dangerous race of liars, driven by an agenda that threatens the peace and security of the entire world. If this is indeed an accurate picture of the role of Jews in the world (and if antisemitism is more fiction than reality, how could this picture not be accurate?), I am forced to ask again, how could there possibly be anything *wrong* with being an antisemite? I would think opposition to the agenda of a people so utterly bent on building a base of power on lies and deceit as the Jews must be, as evidenced by their cunning manipulation of the false notion of antisemitism for so many decades, would be a mark of herioc virtue. Why would anyone be insulted to be identified with those brave few with the courage to oppose Jewish power?
    DIL

    Reply

  20. Carroll says:

    I think Steve’s call for civility is good.
    I also think is it good to make clear statements now and then about exactly why someone is opposed to the Israeli Lobby and Israel and opposed to the zionist activist who promote the theory that they can maintain a loyalty to the US, and at the same time work to use America and American’s power and riches for the benefit of Israel..because…Israel and the US have a “special relationship”…or Israel and the US are “one and the same”.
    So from an American’s point of view here it is…and this is for the benefit of those here who are rabid supporters and apologizers for Israel and the US/Isr “relationship.
    Israel and America are not “alike” much less one and the same. Israel’s culture is not an American culture, we don’t share a similar “culture” or similar interest or social mores or attitudes. Israel is not a “western civilization” or a true democracy and is in no way similar to America. And all the PR campaigns in the world to try to convince people they are alike won’t make it so. The “pretense” adopted by zionst that what they do in support of Israel that is often determintal to the majority American interest is O.K. and is not a “divided loyalty” because we are “one and the same” is just that..a RP pretense.
    As an American I don’t have a “favorite” foreign country politically or emotionally or have another “real homeland”.
    The American attitude toward foreign alliences and favortism was best expressed in George Washington’s Farewell Address and what we see today is a good reason to go back and adopt his advise.
    As an American I also don’t care if you are Jewish, Budhist, French, German, black , white or polka dot..Until…you start f******* with my country, it’s policies, it’s goverment, in ways that effect Americans and in ways that affect America’s attitude and actions toward other countries.
    When you do this I don’t care who or what you are, or what your history, grip, grudge or whine is, you will become my enemy and I will defend the interest of my country against you and your influence in every nook and cranny. And you had really better have some bigger guns than simple slurs if you think you are going to turn my country into a version of your “Other country”.
    Because if you say you can have equal loyalty to two countries you are a liar..because no two countries will ever, have ever, had identical interest. And maintaining a higher loyalty to another country based on religon or ethnics or any other cult nationism is going to make you disloyal to my country sooner or later in large or small ways. We have already seen that happen in the zionist lobby community. We have seen it happen in some elements of the Cuban “exile” community whose sole purpose in living in America is to get us to invade Cuba and seize back their casinos and elite living status for them. We see American taxpayers robbed of 3 billion plus a year to finance Israel and see the US congress prevent American farmers from selling their products to Cuba simiply because the ‘exile-political” Cubans in Flordia want to keep the US-Cuba grudge match going for their own purpose.
    Americans have never before had to defend their country from within, but we do now because those I describe above have taken advantage of our “diversity”, of our “free speech” of our “minority protection” of our “right to lobby” our goverment…and have perverted those rights and privilages and used our own democracy against us. We gave you an inch and you took a mile, we took you in, you rob us,we gave you equal rights, you “demand” privilages above and beyond the other ordinary Americans, we include you in representation in our goverment and you use it for another country, we engage in political criticism of your positions and actions or your “other” country and tell you are going against the principles of our country and you slur us and call us names for defending or fighting for what we consider to be the right way for America.
    So bottom line, we don’t dislike you for being Jewish or Cuban or Mexican or German..we dislike those of you who are “duals” and dissemblers and deliberate liars and mud slingers and run with the zionist pack slanders of anyone who objects to US/Isr, and minpulators and users of a country that took you in and that obviously is not your own, who you have no regard for, no loyalty to, whose citizens you distain and insult, whose founding principles that made it possible for you to live here to begin with, you don’t subscribe to.
    Now, I realize a lot of the ‘exiles’ and “dispora” who constantly slander in these discussions about Israel probably live among others like them and have no real understanding of the average American opinion or mindset of “plain” Americans.
    And I could have made this explaination nicer but it’s time you got served straight up.
    It would be and would have been nice if the great democratic diversity and “melting pot” could have worked smoothly as planned, but there are always those who won’t be satisfied with just “equal” , who won’t be happy with being “part of” the melting pot, and will try to take advantage of the entire nation for their own narrow agenda or mental twistedness or just plain greediness.
    That is what is happening now in this country, in other areas besides Israel, but Israel is the most dangerous one to American at the moment so it deserves this dicussion and singling out.
    So if you are one of those people quoted in newpapers and political discussions during the last US elections who said they were voting for “who was best for Israel”..or one of those Cubans who said they were voting for whoever would be the toughest on Castro….you are living in the wrong country.
    For a long time I though this was a “political war”, a fight about politics and policy….I have never been into “identity” or “protecting” my own “culture” in the way the semi racist culture hawks talk about….but lately I have come to agree with others that it is more than a political fight going on now..that America is in the beginings of a “culture war” or identity war of sorts, determining what
    America be will….and where it concerns Israel the question is, will we remain Americans or become a version of Israelis?

    Reply

  21. Carroll says:

    Steve….I agree with you mostly …except I would question the way the US goverment handled the USS Liberty as being for the “greater good”..and whose greater good was it for?…the reputation and goals of zionist in the US…for the politicans political favor from the zionist lobbies and donators?….for Israel itself?….for our weapons and military industrial complex scheme with Israel?.
    I really cannot see any way it was for the good of Americans to see their goverment put an ethnic or religious group or a foreign country or personal political ambitions or greed above it’s own people and especially it’s own service people doing their duty in the service of this country when they were killed and attacked.
    If it had truely been determined to be an accident then not making a case of it I would agree was for the greater good. But that wasn’t the case.
    Whether the order to attack the Liberty came from the top in Israel of came from further down the chain of command…the point is the US goverment let justice for our own people go…and no punishment was exacted from the responsible party in Israel.
    If this had been an “accident” by any other country, much less deliberate, we would have started a war over it.
    I would argue that every time we have given Israel and their zionist supporters a pass we have gone further and further down the slippery slope to right where we are now…..viewed as the same kind of outlaw and rouge country as Israel …and complict in what they are doing ouside the law in Palestine.
    Our allience with Israel and the undue influence of their lobby and the corruption of our US politicans in the Israel relationship and in all other sectors for that matter, have made America barely recongizable as it former self.

    Reply

  22. Pissed Off American says:

    Steve, I asppreciate your calls for civility. But being called a “jew baiter” or being accused of being “anti-semitic” is a FAR WORSE slur than being labeled a mere asshole. Besides, I never call anyone an asshole unless they have clearly shown themselves to be one. So, in return, perhaps DIL will now show us were I have clearly shown myself to be a “anti-semitic”, a “jew hater” or a “jew baiter”.
    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hatespeech.html

    Reply

  23. Steve Clemons says:

    Keep it on policy and politics folks – I don’t like or have patience for the name-calling on both sides of this debate. I think that many of you are keeping this discussion civil — and appreciate that — others of you can try a bit harder.
    There are legitimate differences of opinion on what is unfolding — let’s hear everyone out.
    Israel has a right to pursue its soldier, its security interests, and regional order — but I think it is doing a poor job of achieving stability and long-term security. This is a legitimate view — and I welcome debate with others who disagree.
    But let’s not delve into the name-calling, etc. – – it doesn’t help. I support Israel for the record — but I reserve the right to disagree with how it pursues its security, when it seems to me its undermining stability in the Middle East.
    I think DIL has a point that mentioning things “like stench”, etc. don’t keep this debate on the level that all of you deserve. POA is very informed and has strong passion — as others of you do — let’s balance it out and debate the issues.
    I have to head out and will post more later on the blog, but keep it civil — that will make me happy — and may also help others see how a civil discussion on Israel-Palestine manners can be conducted.
    More soon,
    Steve Clemons

    Reply

  24. mangels says:

    DIL:
    You are but small minority who thinks the world hates the Jew….who thinks that anti-Semitism is psychological condition of the Gentile, and the only safe sancturary for Jews living in the hateful Gentile world is Israel. Without hatred of Jews there is no Israel….no Zionism. As the father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, wrote:
    ?It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends?. (Theodor Herzl, Diary, Part I, pp. 16)
    To claim anti-Semitism where it isn’t is an obvious necessity….you’ve proved that all along. Sorry to say….it’s not working anymore.

    Reply

  25. Pissed Off American says:

    “Why is it so hard for you to admit how you really feel about Jews?”
    I am as indifferent about “jews” as I am about ANY religous or ethnic grouping. The “jews” aren’t the problem in Israel, its the fucking fanatics and zealots making policy that are the problem.
    “Or are you this maniacally obsessed with the transgressions of all the ‘other’ brutally repressive regimes of the world?”
    We don’t send millions of dollars a week to the “other brutally repressive regimes of the world”. Nor do we allow their operatives to infiltrate our governmemntal entities, such as the “Office Of Special Plans”. Or bribe our public officials through the most powerful lobbying organization in existence.
    “By the way, as an American Army veteran……blablahblah…..”
    Yeah yeah yeah, that makes your opinion more valid, I know. Its where we ALWAYS end up in these bullshit charades that you trolls consistently engage in. Attack your opponents patriotism, claim to be an American hero..ad nauseum. Well hey buddy, go screw yourself. You don’t know SQUAT about me, about whatever service I have or haven’t rendered to my country, or what I am NOW doing to be of service. But hey, asshole, if you want to make this an argument about racism why don’t you shag your red white and blue ass straight to the capitol and demand the billions that are being sent to Israel get sent to the blacks in New Orleans instead, eh?
    “So, POA, since you clearly have no interest in having me as a fellow citizen, and you certainly seem to feel I have no right to migrate to Israel”
    Actually, I am all for it. Why don’t you do us all a favor and SWIM over?

    Reply

  26. DL says:

    POA asks, “Any more questions, troll?”
    Well, yes — or no, really, since it’s actually the same one I’ve already asked twice without getting any kind of response, not even a dishonest one. Why is it so hard for you to admit how you really feel about Jews? Or are you this maniacally obsessed with the transgressions of all the ‘other’ brutally repressive regimes of the world?
    By the way, as an American Army veteran, I was against Bush’s vanity war from the beginning. Like the great majority of American Jews, I proudly vote Democratic, even though, like the great majority of American Jews, I’m profoundly aware of how badly the political left is tainted with such bigotry as you, POA, are clearly incapable of suppressing. The principle difference between the bigoted left and the bigoted right, as far as I can see, is the former’s neurotically self-righteous inability to acknowledge its own bigotry.
    So, POA, since you clearly have no interest in having me as a fellow citizen, and you certainly seem to feel I have no right to migrate to Israel (being a Jew and all), where precisely would you in your magnanimity allow me to live? Or do I already assume too much — i.e., that given the full run of your well-considered druthers, you would, indeed, allow me to live?
    Update: POA: “I find it pathetic and, well, evil. — the stench … ” … Oh, the stench. My goodness, do you even know the history of the rhetoric you’re invoking here? I believe you make my point.
    DIL

    Reply

  27. Steve Clemons says:

    Dear TWN Readers & Posters —
    Let’s keep things civil. This is too important and controversial a subject to roll into name-calling.
    For those who have questioned my reference of the USS Liberty, which I agree is an imperfect analogy, the reason I did so is that it demonstrates some degree of what I am talking about.
    The soldiers on the USS Liberty were as valuable to American citizens as the kidnapped Israeli soldier to his. While the foes in this particular case are very different — the fact remains that many in the US believe the incident to have been one that was consciously pursued by Israel — and potentially, a relationship-breaking event that might have produced wildly different outcomes in the Middle East.
    Despite the obvious emotion of the incident, the US covered it up — it chose not to escalate. It made a decision that I think was problematic, but I understand the larger reasons the US did seek to quiet things after the Israeli attack.
    My point is that if Israel was pursuing greater goals, it could put even horrible and outrageous incidents in a larger context — and be less engaged in knee-jerk, emotional, overdone responses.
    Israel is the superpower in the Middle East; it sets the temperature for things. I think that the USS Liberty case is something Americans and Israelis should remember because American servicemen did die — and the cover up was designed for some greater good.
    The Israeli government should begin to get to work on that greater end game — and end the status quo of crisis — with better strategy and policy. Yes, the Palestinians and Hamas will need to figure out how to play nicely — but Israel sets the temperature.
    Steve Clemons

    Reply

  28. Pissed Off American says:

    Has anyone else noticed that those here drooling this bullshit about “anti-semitism”, and those advocating or defending Israel’s actions do so without any substantive arguments??? Where are THEIR links rebutting the aqccusations of Israeli espionage directed against the United States??? Where are THEIR links rebutting figures that portray the TRUE COSTS in human suffering and demonstrate the truly lopsided coasts in human life and suffering? Where are THEIR explanations for the many FACTUAL EXAMPLES we give of Isreali duplicity in their dealings with the United States, and their repeated acts of Espionage directed against us. No, instead we see the kind of empty senseless bullshit we see on this thread, where the facts are IGNORED by those defending Israel’s actions, and the best they can come up with is the tired and timeless accusations of “anti-semitism” and “jew baiting”. I find it pathetic, and….well…..evil. The stench emanating from their camp closely mimics the smell oozing out of the Oval Office. I have a feeling its not by coincidence.

    Reply

  29. Pissed Off American says:

    “Pissed off American trots out a list of UN resolutions against Israel. Since when are pissed off Americans so impressed with the U.N.?”
    Well, since they were RIGHT about Iraq, and the Bushlickers were WRONG.
    Any more questions, troll?

    Reply

  30. DIL says:

    Pissed off American trots out a list of UN resolutions against Israel. Since when are pissed off Americans so impressed with the U.N.?
    I don’t pretend that the conduct of Israeli defense policy is either error-free or morally blameless. Nor do I deny that the military incursions of the last couple of days have imposed significant hardship on Gazans. What I do contend is that it is intellectually dishonest at best to attack Israeli military measure without acknowledging the extraordinary lengths taken to avoid loss of innocent life and limb, while at the same time making the same old tired accusations about Jews bent on genocide, etc., etc. What I also contend is that the level of outrage directed by so many in this thread at a single nation state, whose flaws are certainly no more egregious (and in many ways considerably less so) than those of many other nation states around the world or in the region, suggests something more intense than a mere concern for geo-political ethics. Nothing in the discussion on offer here persuades me that the outrage now directed against “the Zionists [who] fucked it up” is in any way different from the outrage historically directed at pre-Zionist Jews. Again, it perplexes me that this is such a contentious point. Clearly, “antisemite” has long since ceased to be a dirty word — why does it offend all of you so?
    History teaches Jews this: if the choice is to be hated for being defenseless or to be hated for being aggressive in our own defense, take the latter every time. Call me a buffoon, an idiot, a fucked up Zionist, whatever you want, all you want. I know your kind — you could at least allow yourselves the dignity of admitting the truth to yourselves, as well.
    DIL

    Reply

  31. Sue says:

    Carroll,
    Ploy? An honest request (yes, really) for information is a ploy? You just make a blanket statement that Israel INTENDS GENOCIDE and expect me to accept it as fact? Because you say so? Yes, mommy.
    And no, if you were starving me to death it wouldn’t be the spitballs that killed me.
    So you say Israel is committing genocide based on intent, without anything to back it up, and that methods don’t matter. But we’ve just established that methods DO matter: spitballs=not genocide – starvation=genocide. So because I disagree that oppression does not equal genocide I have to go back to kindergarten? And I’m a Zionist? You apparently didn’t get any of my previous hints about ASSumption, or deliberately ignored them.
    And while we’re on the subject of schooling, you stated that the U.S. had declared “HAS DECLARED ITSELF AND ISRAEL ABOVE ANY LAWS IN THE UNIVERSE.” Am I safe in ASSuming that the laws of gravity are still alive and kicking? I sure hope so, ‘cause I want to take the kids to the beach this weekend and that’s going to be a problem if the ocean is floating around in the atmosphere.
    Can I have my milk and cookies now?

    Reply

  32. Peter Schwartz says:

    Schwarz: “And if you go back far enough, they were Jews; go back even further, they were Philistines (and others, I believe).”
    We ain’t going back “far enough”, because we can’t agree on which era is pertinent. I say the Zionist crime of the modern era, which took place in the early 1900s, is the event that ignites the hell in Palestine.
    As for your attempt to rewrite history, it ain’t gonna work. I have seen the maps of the region.
    The one thing we agree on, and hope the world comes to realize that it is the best solution: restore Palestine, and allow all people to live there as they did before the Zionists fucked it up.
    Sorry, can’t agree. The maps don’t show a nation called Palestine, because there wasn’t one. As far as going back “far enough,” there is no need to go back to any period: Jews have been living continuously in the region, literally, since the beginning of time. To suggest that the Palestinians were “the original” inhabitants, and Jews are intruders, is just factually wrong. In one map I saw, they were a majority of Jerusalem’s population in 1875 (just to pick one date). In any event, you can’t “restore” Palestine–even if you got rid of all the Jews living there–any more than you can restore the “United States,” even the most recently conquered sections, to the time before the Anglos arrived. It’s not a serious proposal from any perpsective.

    Reply

  33. Matthew says:

    Steve: Here’s a follow up to the speech and dinner with Ambassador Sahieh. He was articulate and charming and, to use his own phrase, “unreasonably reasonable.” His speech repeated many themes that he’s previously espoused on C-Span. (Just thought I’d get that observation in for the policy wonks.) The meeting was tense because he talked plainly and our audience was quite mixed. (There were easily as many Jewish Americans as Arab Americans in attendance.)
    When we had a chance to talk in the smaller group, I asked him about one of his favorite themes: A weak American president is bad for the Palestinians. And if you compare Bush’s rhetoric in 2002 with his rhetoric in 2006 that point seems uncontrovertable.
    The emotions were really running high last night. My fear is that these escalations always detract from discussions of final status issues, which is a shame, since a number of participants–without drawing an audible objection from the Ambassador– voiced support for an USA-EU-UN-imposed solution on the parties. And I think that is the point. The process is lost to those with hidden, evil agendas, not to bold leadership that articulates the end game. I think everyone present felt that interim agreements were ineffective and easily gamed by both sides.
    All in all, a very informative evening.

    Reply

  34. Pissed Off American says:

    “Much of Gaza, INCLUDING TWO MAIN HOSPITALS, was without power and running water as a UN aid chief warned that the 1.4 million residents of the strip were three days away from a humanitarian crisis.”
    Okay, so we impose economic sanctions, block the shipment of food and goods into Gaza, look the other way as Israel takes out the infrastructures that supply water and electricity, and some buffoon gets on here and implies there are no casualties. When people like that post their bullshit, it only reinforces the points and arguments of those that oppose Israel’s actions.

    Reply

  35. sglover says:

    “Interestingly, not one of the posters decrying the “brutality” of Israel’s response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit (including you, Steve) has seen fit to mention that there have been no reports of casualties as a result of this Israeli military action. And then you wonder why Israelis and Jews suspect that much of the criticism leveled at them smacks of antisemitism. What I don’t understand is why so many enthusiastic Jew-baiters find it so offensive to be labeled as such. You all take such apparent pride in making clear how much you resent Jews and Israel; why can’t you wear the name “antisemite” proudly, as it was intended to be worn?”
    Somebody needs to come up with a counterpart to Godwin’s Law for this kind of kneejerk bullshit. Think of the bandwidth we could save if we only had to type “X Alert!” or “Don’t X-ize the thread” when the old “Anti-Semite! Anti-Semite!” diversion gets trotted out.

    Reply

  36. Pissed Off American says:

    “Interestingly, not one of the posters decrying the “brutality” of Israel’s response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit (including you, Steve) has seen fit to mention that there have been no reports of casualties as a result of this Israeli military action.”
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19645805-2703,00.html
    Much of Gaza, INCLUDING TWO MAIN HOSPITALS, was without power and running water as a UN aid chief warned that the 1.4 million residents of the strip were three days away from a humanitarian crisis.
    “They are heading for the abyss unless they get electricity and fuel restored,” said emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland, who urged militants to free Corporal Shalit and stop firing rockets into Israel.

    Reply

  37. Jerome Gaskins says:

    The first step in fixing Zion’s mess is giving the proper weight to its words. Israel has no credibility, so how can it define what terrorist acts are? If Zion’s ally insists that they can make the definition, it is absolutely necessary that Zion’s victims be afforded the same credibility and authority to define what acts are terrorism.

    Reply

  38. Jerome Gaskins says:

    Schwarz: “And if you go back far enough, they were Jews; go back even further, they were Philistines (and others, I believe).”
    We ain’t going back “far enough”, because we can’t agree on which era is pertinent. I say the Zionist crime of the modern era, which took place in the early 1900s, is the event that ignites the hell in Palestine.
    As for your attempt to rewrite history, it ain’t gonna work. I have seen the maps of the region.
    The one thing we agree on, and hope the world comes to realize that it is the best solution: restore Palestine, and allow all people to live there as they did before the Zionists fucked it up.

    Reply

  39. Pissed Off American says:

    Resolution 106: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid”.
    Resolution 111: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people”.
    Resolution 127: ” . . . ‘recommends’ Israel suspends it’s ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem”.
    Resolution 162: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions”.
    Resolution 171: ” . . . determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria”.
    Resolution 228: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control”.
    Resolution 237: ” . . . ‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees”.
    Resolution 248: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan”.
    Resolution 250: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem”.
    Resolution 251: ” . . . ‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250″.
    Resolution 252: ” . . . ‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital”.
    Resolution 256: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation”.
    Resolution 259: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation”.
    Resolution 262: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport”.
    Resolution 265: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan”.
    Resolution 267: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem”.
    Resolution 270: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon”.
    Resolution 271: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem”.
    Resolution 279: ” . . . ‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon”.
    Resolution 280: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon”.
    Resolution 285: ” . . . ‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon”.
    Resolution 298: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem”.
    Resolution 313: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon”.
    Resolution 316: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon”.
    Resolution 317: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon”.
    Resolution 332: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon”.
    Resolution 337: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty”.
    Resolution 347: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon”.
    Resolution 425: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
    Resolution 427: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
    Resolution 444: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces”.
    Resolution 446: ” . . . ‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
    Resolution 450: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon”.
    Resolution 452: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories”.
    Resolution 465: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program”.
    Resolution 467: ” . . . ‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon”.
    Resolution 468: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return”.
    Resolution 469: ” . . . ‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians”.
    Resolution 471: ” . . . ‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”.
    Resolution 476: ” . . . ‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claim to Jerusalem are ‘null and void'”.
    Resolution 478: ” . . . ‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law'”.
    Resolution 484: ” . . . ‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors”.
    Resolution 487: ” . . . ‘strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility”.
    Resolution 497: ” . . . ‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith”.
    Resolution 498: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon”.
    Resolution 501: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops”.
    Resolution 509: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon”.
    Resolution 515: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in”.
    Resolution 517: ” . . . ‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon”.
    Resolution 518: ” . . . ‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon”.
    Resolution 520: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut”.
    Resolution 573: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.
    Resolution 587: ” . . . ‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw”.
    Resolution 592: ” . . . ‘strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops”.
    Resolution 605: ” . . . ‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
    Resolution 607: ” . . . ‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
    Resolution 608: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians”.
    Resolution 636: ” . . . ‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
    Resolution 641: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians.
    Resolution 672: ” . . . ‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
    Resolution 673: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
    Resolution 681: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
    Resolution 694: ” . . . ‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
    Resolution 726: ” . . . ‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians.
    Resolution 799: “. . . ‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

    Reply

  40. Pissed Off American says:

    “Interestingly, not one of the posters decrying the “brutality” of Israel’s response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit (including you, Steve) has seen fit to mention that there have been no reports of casualties as a result of this Israeli military action.”
    Yeah, I am sure that besides a few skinned elbows there has been no harm done. Idiot. The loss of water and electric utilities will have no health ramifications either, eh? Those kids can just drink sand, and eat unspoilable goods. Besides, the skinny ones can’t run so fast, and are much eadsier targets.

    Reply

  41. DIL says:

    Fortunately, nobody in Israel is asking the likes of the Jew-baiters posting to this thread for permission to defend Israeli interests. It’s a hell of a lot harder to beat up on Jews when they’re armed, too, isn’t it? You don’t like Jews? Fine, you don’t like Jews. Have a nice life.
    Interestingly, not one of the posters decrying the “brutality” of Israel’s response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit (including you, Steve) has seen fit to mention that there have been no reports of casualties as a result of this Israeli military action. And then you wonder why Israelis and Jews suspect that much of the criticism leveled at them smacks of antisemitism. What I don’t understand is why so many enthusiastic Jew-baiters find it so offensive to be labeled as such. You all take such apparent pride in making clear how much you resent Jews and Israel; why can’t you wear the name “antisemite” proudly, as it was intended to be worn?

    Reply

  42. EasyE says:

    Hamas cabinet ministers did not kidnap Israeli soldier. Either done by free-lance street thugs or staged by IDF as precursor for toppling Hamas government. Sadly, all sanctioned by the U.S. in its sinful support of radical Likudnik regime.

    Reply

  43. sglover says:

    Folks of a certain age might recall the outrage over ‘Koreagate’ a few decades ago. In the ’70’s, many Americans still got outraged about the idea that a foreign power’s intelligence service was intent on swaying congressmembers. Less than ten years ago, right-wingers were fuming about purported Chinese influences on the executive branch.
    Yet today, in Israel we have an “ally” whose agents have been convicted of espionage on our soil multiple times. AIPAC — which doesn’t even pretend to represent American interests — has more clout than many (most?) domestic lobbies, and may well be a coordinator for Israel’s spying. The pay-off for Tel Aviv is plain: We underwrite their economy, we supply their military, we’ve even bought off their most worrying foe, Egypt. The pay-off for Americans? Nil — unless some Bizarroland accounting scheme can convert wasted billions and the hatred of a billion Muslims as assets.
    Allegations of Korean and Chinese influence could at least get a public airing, but for some reason our dysfunctional water-carrying for Israel isn’t a fit topic for polite company. Ask the simplest question about our Israel policy — What’s in it for us? — and you’ll hear “Anti-Semite! Anti-Semite!” before your next breath. While its effects on my country, America, are terrible, I gotta admire the sheer wizardry of Tel Aviv’s foreign policy. There aren’t too many examples of a third-rate, county-sized state playing a superpower like a ventriloquist’s dummy. I wish American foreign policy was half as clever.

    Reply

  44. mangels says:

    Steve and everyone,
    If you haven’t already read this book “Open Secrets: Israel Foreign and Nuclear Policies” by the late Prof. Israel Shahak, I highly recommend it.
    This prophetic book published in 1997 contains a compilation of essays Prof. Shahak had written in the early to mid 90’s. Through his observations and analyses of the Israel media, and interviews with Israeli military and political officals, Prof. Shahak pieces together Israel’s foreign policy objectives in the coming decades. Needless to say, this book was a wake up call for the United States as it details Israeli hegemonic Middle East ambitions and the role an unwitting United States would play in fullfiling these ambitions. One of the primary foriegn policy goal was to militarily take out the Iraqi, Syrian, and Iranian regimes. Shahak writes that for Israel to execute this military campaign would bring international condemnation on them, hence Israeli political and military officials saw the best way to accomplish this goal would be to convince the United States to do it for them. Israel recognized they could exploit Americans general ignorance on Middle East issues, hence they would exploit this ignorance through a misinformation and lobbying campaign (the Israeli people were also being prepped via a propaganda campaign in their own country). US Middle East policy would be shaped through pro-Israel: lobby groups, US media, editorial writers (Shahak mentions William Safire at the New York Times among others), lawmakers, and government officials. As Shahak writes, the desired time to get the US militarily involved in the Middle East would be shortly after the turn of the century….and the rest is history.

    Reply

  45. Shaneekwa says:

    I love my Jewish brothers and sisters, but courageous Americans need to remind our Israeli friends – as friends must when our friends err – that Likud nationalism and barbarism is not in the Israeli national interest or in the interest of regional or world peace. Thank you to Steve for his sober and courageous commentary on this situation.
    For those who failed to understand the point of his essay, the reminder of the USS Liberty (which I’d never heard of before today) was not to pick at an old sore or smear Israel, despite what paranoia might suggest. The stated purpose of that reminder was to highlight the muted American response to that outrageous *Israeli* use of violence against a far more powerful nation.
    SHALOM

    Reply

  46. pauline says:

    Pissed Off American wrote:
    “Why are you going back forty years to cite Israeli crimes against America?”
    “The investigation by the FBI leads to the exposure of the largest foreign spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, operated by Israel. Half of the suspected spies have been arrested when 9-11 happens. On 9-11, 5 Israelis are arrested for dancing and cheering while the World Trade Towers collapse. Supposedly employed by Urban Moving Systems, the Israelis are caught with multiple passports and a lot of cash. Two of them are later revealed to be Mossad. As witness reports track the activity of the Israelis, it emerges that they were seen at Liberty Park at the time of the first impact, suggesting a foreknowledge of what was to come. The Israelis are interrogated, and then eventually sent back to Israel. The owner of the moving company used as a cover by the Mossad agents abandons his business and flees to Israel. The United States Government then classifies all of the evidence related to the Israeli agents and their connections to 9-11. All of this is reported to the public via a four part story on Fox News by Carl Cameron. Pressure from Jewish groups, primarily AIPAC, forces Fox News to remove the story from their website. Two hours prior to the 9-11 attacks, Odigo, an Israeli company with offices just a few blocks from the World Trade Towers, receives an advance warning via the internet. The manager of the New York Office provides the FBI with the IP address of the sender of the message, but the FBI does not follow up.”
    “The organization at the heart of the latest spy investigation, AIPAC, wields tremendous influence over the US Congress. Through its members and affiliated PACs, AIPAC directs a huge flow of campaign cash in favor of, and occasionally against, Senators and Representatives solely on the basis of their willingness to support Israel. As an example, in 2002, U.S. Rep. Artur Davis, D-Birmingham received so much help from pro-Israeli pacs that 76% of his campaign budget came from OUTSIDE the state of Alabama, mostly from New York.”
    “Let me repeat that. A Congressman AIPAC wanted elected received more money from pro-Israel groups outside his state than from his own constituents inside his state. Who is that Congressman going to be thinking of when he votes in Congress?”
    “For two years, the FBI has suspected AIPAC of spying for a foreign country, and for those two years (and for decades before) that group suspected of spying for Israel has been reshaping the US Congress for the benefit of a foreign government.”
    “And THAT is the mother of all scandals.”
    heck, I’ll even go back 43-44 years and point out that Michael Collins Piper in his book, “Final Judgement” details how the Israelis hated both JFK and his father Joe, illegally bought nuclear weapons to the chagrin of JFK, and may have been a party to a certain asassination on 11/22/63. that connection has been virtually absent from most JFK conspiracy and mainstream press stories.
    just like the 9/11 moving companies you mention, the seemingly Israeli connections to many tragic American historical events needs much more serious attention.
    one always should ask “who benefits” when analyzing these tragic events.

    Reply

  47. Friendly Fire says:

    All I can say is that this is a brave post Steve and I admire you for that. Because it is the truth.
    PS: Watch out for Mossad Honies!

    Reply

  48. Pissed Off American says:

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/motherofallscandals.html
    1947. Information collected by the ADL in its spy operations on US citizens is used by the House Select Committee on Unamerican Activities. Subcommittee Chair Clare Hoffman dismisses the ADL’s reports on suspected communists as “hearsay.”
    1950 John Davitt, former chief of the Justice Department’s internal security section notes that the Israeli intelligence service is the second most active in the United States after the Soviets.
    1954 A hidden microphone planted by the Israelis is discovered in the Office of the US Ambassador in Tel Aviv.
    1956 Telephone taps are found connected to two telephones in the residence of the US military attaché in Tel Aviv.
    1954 “The Lavon Affair”. Israeli agents recruit Egyptian citizens of Jewish descent to bomb Western targets in Egypt, and plant evidence to frame Arabs, in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon is eventually removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.
    1965 Israel apparently illegally obtains enriched uranium from NUMEC Corporation. (Washington Post, 6/5/86, Charles R. Babcock, “US an Intelligence Target of the Israelis, Officials Say.”)
    1967 Israel attacks the USS Liberty, an intelligence gathering vessel flying a US flag, killing 34 crew members. See “Assault on the Liberty,” by James M. Ennes, Jr. (Random House). In 2004, Captain Ward Boston, Senior Legal Counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the attack swears under oath that President Lyndon Johnson ordered the investigation to conclude accident, even though the evidence indicates the attack was deliberate. Given the use by Israel of unmarked boats and planes, and the machine-gunning of USS Liberty’s lifeboats, the most likely explanation is that USS Liberty was to be sunk with all hands, with evidence left to frame Egypt for the sinking. This would have dragged the US into the war on Israel’s side.
    1970 While working for Senator Henry “Scoop” Jackson, Richard Perle is caught by the FBI giving classified information to Israel. Nothing is done.
    1978, Stephen Bryen, then a Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer, is overheard in a DC hotel offering confidential documents to top Israeli military officials. Bryen obtains a lawyer, Nathan Lewin, and the case heads for the grand jury, but is mysteriously dropped. Bryen later goes to work for Richard Perle.
    1979 Shin Beth [the Israeli internal security agency] tries to penetrate the US Consulate General in Jerusalem through a “Honey Trap”, using a clerical employee who was having an affair with a Jerusalem girl.
    1985 The New York Times reports the FBI is aware of at least a dozen incidents in which American officials transferred classified information to the Israelis, quoting [former Assistant Director of the F.B.I.] Mr. [Raymond] Wannal. The Justice Department does not prosecute.
    1985 Richard Smyth, the owner of MILCO, is indicted on charges of smuggling nuclear timing devices to Israel (Washington Post, 10/31/86).
    1987 April 24 Wall Street Journal headline: “Role of Israel in Iran-Contra Scandal Won’t be Explored in Detail by Panels”
    1992 The Wall Street Journal reports that Israeli agents apparently tried to steal Recon Optical Inc’s top-secret airborne spy-camera system.
    1992 Stephen Bryen, caught offering confidential documents to Israel in 1978, is serving on board of the pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs while continuing as a paid consultant — with security clearance — on exports of sensitive US technology.
    1992 “The Samson Option,” by Seymour M. Hersh reports, “Illicitly obtained intelligence was flying so voluminously from LAKAM into Israeli intelligence that a special code name, JUMBO, was added to the security markings already on the documents. There were strict orders, Ari Ben-Menashe recalled: “Anything marked JUMBO was not supposed to be discussed with your American counterparts.”
    1993. The ADL is caught operating a massive spying operation on critics of Israel, Arab-Americans, the San Francisco Labor Council, ILWU Local 10, Oakland Educational Association, NAACP, Irish Northern Aid, International Indian Treaty Council, the Asian Law Caucus and the San Francisco police. Data collected was sent to Israel and in some cases to South Africa. Pressure from Jewish organizations forces the city to drop the criminal case, but the ADL settles a civil lawsuit for an undisclosed sum of cash.
    1995 The Defense Investigative Service circulates a memo warning US military contractors that “Israel aggressively collects [US] military and industrial technology.” The report stated that Israel obtains information using “ethnic targeting, financial aggrandizement, and identification and exploitation of individual frailties” of US citizens.
    1996 A General Accounting Office report “Defense Industrial Security: Weaknesses in US Security Arrangements With Foreign-Owned Defense Contractors” found that according to intelligence sources “Country A” (identified by intelligence sources as Israel, Washington Times, 2/22/96) “conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally.” The Jerusalem Post (8/30/96) quoted the report, “Classified military information and sensitive military technologies are high-priority targets for the intelligence agencies of this country.” The report described “An espionage operation run by the intelligence organization responsible for collecting scientific and technologic information for [Israel] paid a US government employee to obtain US classified military intelligence documents.” The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (Shawn L. Twing, April 1996) noted that this was “a reference to the 1985 arrest of Jonathan Pollard, a civilian US naval intelligence analyst who provided Israel’s LAKAM [Office of Special Tasks] espionage agency an estimated 800,000 pages of classified US intelligence information.”
    The GAO report also noted that “Several citizens of [Israel] were caught in the United States stealing sensitive technology used in manufacturing artillery gun tubes.”
    1996 An Office of Naval Intelligence document, “Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare” reported that “US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology.” Jane’s Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that “until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China.” The report noted that this “represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation.” (Flight International, 3/13/96)
    1997 An Army mechanical engineer, David A. Tenenbaum, “inadvertently” gives classified military information on missile systems and armored vehicles to Israeli officials (New York Times, 2/20/97).
    1997 The Washington Post reports US intelligence has intercepted a conversation in which two Israeli officials had discussed the possibility of getting a confidential letter that then-Secretary of State Warren Christopher had written to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat. One of the Israelis, identified only as “Dov”, had commented that they may get the letter from “Mega”, the code name for Israel’s top agent inside the United States.
    1997 US ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk, complains privately to the Israeli government about heavy-handed surveillance by Israeli intelligence agents.
    1997 Israeli agents place a tap on Monica Lewinsky’s phone at the Watergate and record phone sex sessions between her and President Bill Clinton. The Ken Starr report confirms that Clinton warned Lewinsky their conversations were being taped and ended the affair. At the same time, the FBI’s hunt for “Mega” is called off.
    2001 It is discovered that US drug agents’ communications have been penetrated. Suspicion falls on two companies, AMDOCS and Comverse Infosys, both owned by Israelis. AMDOCS generates billing data for most US phone companies and is able to provide detailed logs of who is talking to whom. Comverse Infosys builds the tapping equipment used by law enforcement to eavesdrop on all American telephone calls, but suspicion forms that Comverse, which gets half of its research and development budget from the Israeli government, has built a back door into the system that is being exploited by Israeli intelligence and that the information gleaned on US drug interdiction efforts is finding its way to drug smugglers. The investigation by the FBI leads to the exposure of the largest foreign spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, operated by Israel. Half of the suspected spies have been arrested when 9-11 happens. On 9-11, 5 Israelis are arrested for dancing and cheering while the World Trade Towers collapse. Supposedly employed by Urban Moving Systems, the Israelis are caught with multiple passports and a lot of cash. Two of them are later revealed to be Mossad. As witness reports track the activity of the Israelis, it emerges that they were seen at Liberty Park at the time of the first impact, suggesting a foreknowledge of what was to come. The Israelis are interrogated, and then eventually sent back to Israel. The owner of the moving company used as a cover by the Mossad agents abandons his business and flees to Israel. The United States Government then classifies all of the evidence related to the Israeli agents and their connections to 9-11. All of this is reported to the public via a four part story on Fox News by Carl Cameron. Pressure from Jewish groups, primarily AIPAC, forces Fox News to remove the story from their website. Two hours prior to the 9-11 attacks, Odigo, an Israeli company with offices just a few blocks from the World Trade Towers, receives an advance warning via the internet. The manager of the New York Office provides the FBI with the IP address of the sender of the message, but the FBI does not follow up.
    2001 The FBI is investigating 5 Israeli moving companies as possible fronts for Israeli intelligence.
    2001 JDL’s Irv Rubin arrested for planning to bomb a US Congressman. He dies before he can be brought to trial.
    2002 The DEA issues a report that Israeli spies, posing as art students, have been trying to penetrate US Government offices.
    2002 police near the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station in southern Washington State stop a suspicious truck and detain two Israelis, one of whom is illegally in the United States. The two men were driving at high speed in a Ryder rental truck, which they claimed had been used to “deliver furniture.” The next day, police discovered traces of TNT and RDX military-grade plastic explosives inside the passenger cabin and on the steering wheel of the vehicle. The FBI then announces that the tests that showed explosives were “false positived” by cigarette smoke, a claim test experts say is ridiculous. Based on an alibi provided by a woman, the case is closed and the Israelis are handed over to INS to be sent back to Israel. One week later, the woman who provided the alibi vanishes.
    2003 The Police Chief of Cloudcroft stops a truck speeding through a school zone. The drivers turn out to be Israelis with expired passports. Claiming to be movers, the truck contains junk furniture and several boxes. The Israelis are handed over to immigration. The contents of the boxers are not revealed to the public.
    2003 Israel deploys assassination squads into other countries, including the United States. The US Government does not protest.
    2004 Police near the Nuclear Fuel Services plant in Tennessee stop a truck after a three mile chase, during which the driver throws a bottle containing a strange liquid from the cab. The drivers turn out to be Israelis using fake Ids. The FBI refuses to investigate and the Israelis are released.
    2004 Two Israelis try to enter Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base, home to eight Trident submarines. The truck tests positive for explosives.
    This brings us to the present scandal. Two years into an investigation of AIPAC’s possible role as a spy front for Israel, Larry Franklin, a mid-level Pentagon Analyst is observed by the FBI giving classified information to two officials of AIPAC suspected of being Israeli spies. AIPAC hires lawyer Nathan Lewin to handle their legal defense, the same lawyer who defended suspected Israeli spy Stephen Bryen in 1978.
    Larry Franklin worked in the Pentagon Office of Special Plans, run by Richard Perle, at the time Perle (who was caught giving classified information to Israel back in 1970) was insisting that Iraq was crawling with weapons of mass destruction requiring the United States to invade and conquer Iraq. There were no WMDs, of course, and Perle has dumped the blame for the “bad intelligence” on George Tenet. But what is known is that the Pentagon Office of Special Plans was coordinating with a similar group in Israel, in Ariel Sharon’s office.
    With two suspected Israeli spies (at least) inside the office from which the lies that launched the war in Iraq originated, it appears that the people of the United States are the victims of a deadly hoax, a hoax that started a war.
    The leaking of the investigation of AIPAC to the media on August 28th, 2004 gave advance warning to other spies working with Franklin. The damage to the FBI’s investigation was completed when United States Attorney General John Ashcroft ordered the FBI to stop all arrests in the case. Like the Stephen Bryen case and the hunt for “Mega”, this latest spy scandal seems destined by officials who have their own secret allegiances to protect, barring a massive public outcry.
    The organization at the heart of the latest spy investigation, AIPAC, wields tremendous influence over the US Congress. Through its members and affiliated PACs, AIPAC directs a huge flow of campaign cash in favor of, and occasionally against, Senators and Representatives solely on the basis of their willingness to support Israel. As an example, in 2002, U.S. Rep. Artur Davis, D-Birmingham received so much help from pro-Israeli pacs that 76% of his campaign budget came from OUTSIDE the state of Alabama, mostly from New York.
    Let me repeat that. A Congressman AIPAC wanted elected received more money from pro-Israel groups outside his state than from his own constituents inside his state. Who is that Congressman going to be thinking of when he votes in Congress?
    So here is the mother of all scandals.
    For two years, the FBI has suspected AIPAC of spying for a foreign country, and for those two years (and for decades before) that group suspected of spying for Israel has been reshaping the US Congress for the benefit of a foreign government.
    And THAT is the mother of all scandals.
    Think about that as billions of your tax dollars flow to Israel while your roads and schools crumble and decay and services are cut.
    Think about that as the coffins come home with your loved ones inside.
    Think about that when you and a million of your fellow citizens march down the streets of America opposing wars built on lies and deceptions and wonder why the government just doesn’t want to listen to you any more.

    Reply

  49. Pissed Off American says:

    Why are you going back forty years to cite Israeli crimes against America? Have we already forgotten the Israeli spy rings rounded up ON AMERICAN SOIL and deported in the days following 9/11??? Does the name “Franklin” ring any bells here???

    Reply

  50. pauline says:

    from http://www.wingtv.net/documentaries.html
    War Crimes and Treason: Israel’s Deliberate Attack on the U.S.S. Liberty (1967)
    Script by Victor Thorn
    Part One — The U.S.S. Liberty – an introduction
    June 8th, 1967 was a clear, sunny day with unlimited visibility. It was such a nice day that as the U.S.S. Liberty floated in international waters 14 miles north of the Sinai Peninsula, sailors were sunbathing on the spy ship’s deck.
    ===========================================================================================
    But all wasn’t as tranquil as the sunny day would convey, for June 8th also marked the 4th day of the 6-Day War, which involved Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
    ===========================================================================================
    Monitoring this situation was the U.S.S. Liberty, a World War II freighter that had been converted into a spy vessel by the NSA – the National Security Agency. In fact, the Liberty was the most sophisticated and identifiable intelligence ship in the world at the time with dozens of large antennae, state of the art electronic intercept equipment, moon bounce satellite dishes, massive aerials, plus a TRSSCOM system that sent real-time messages to the Pentagon. The Liberty also flew a large 5×8 foot American flag, was freshly painted with large white numbers and letters on its bow and hull, and contained no offensive weaponry except for four 50 caliber machine guns for defensive purposes.
    ===========================================================================================
    These details are important to keep in mind, because at 8:00 am, as the Liberty floated in international waters at less than 5 knots – with a 5×8 foot American flag furling in the wind – a squadron of Israeli jets circled the ship at least a dozen times. These reconnaissance planes flew at such low levels – as close as 200 feet – that the sailors aboard the Liberty actually waved to the Israeli pilots. And, as we will show later in this documentary, those commanding these Israeli jets not only I.D.’d this ship as being of American origin, they also positively I.D.’d it as being the U.S.S. Liberty.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Two – The Attack
    Despite being fully aware of its status, at 2:00 in the afternoon, three unmarked Israeli Mystere and Mirage III fighter jets pummeled the Liberty with rockets and cannon fire. These bombers initially went after the ship’s antennae and electronics dishes, in the process filling the American flag full of holes. As sailors fled for cover, Liberty crewmen hoisted a new, even larger 7×13 foot flag into the air. But this new, even larger flag didn’t stop the Israeli onslaught as they sprayed the Liberty with napalm – the highly incendiary substance burning the sailor’s flesh.
    ===========================================================================================
    While this unprovoked act of war was taking place, radio operators aboard the Liberty tried to signal for help. But their SOS distress messages were not heard because the Israeli’s had deliberately jammed all five of the Liberty’s emergency radio channels – a phenomenon that shows quite clearly that the interfering party was aware of their target beforehand and had previously zeroed in on it, for to jam a stranger’s radio in such a rapid manner is virtually impossible.
    ===========================================================================================
    Unable to get help, the U.S.S. Liberty, with eight sailors already dead and 100 wounded, including Commander William McGonagle, was a sitting duck for the Israeli’s who, at 2:24 pm, sent in three torpedo boats loaded with thousands of pounds of explosives. With their target already in flames, the Israeli’s bombed the Liberty with shells, quickly killing 25 more men.
    ===========================================================================================
    As firefighters and medical personnel tried to put out fires and save their ship and crew, they were repeatedly machine gunned by Israeli aircraft. By 3:15 pm, after it was apparent that the Israeli’s didn’t want to leave a single man alive, the crew abandoned ship. But as the surviving crewmen fled for their lives, Israeli warships, at close range, sprayed those rafts aboard the ship with gunfire, along with those carrying the wounded that had already been lowered into the water. It was a sickening display of brutality and savage inhumanity – a total lack of regard for human life. The Israeli’s wanted NO survivors.
    ===========================================================================================
    When word eventually reached the White House, President Lyndon Baines Johnson assumed that it was the Egyptians attacking our ship, so he immediately dispatched air support which would have reached the Liberty in 40 minutes. But then, when LBJ discovered that it was, in fact, the Israeli’s who were attacking our vessel, he immediately called off the rescue.
    ===========================================================================================
    In other words, Phantom jets already en route from the Sixth Fleet were ordered to turn around and return to their point of origin. Try to let the seriousness of this situation sink in for a moment. Navy fighters launched from the aircraft carriers U.S.S. Saratoga and U.S.S. America were recalled by the White House!
    ===========================================================================================
    But the blame doesn’t stop there. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and National Security Advisor Walt Rostow at first ordered instantaneous retaliation, but upon discovering that the attack originated from Israel’s Haifa Base, McNamara called off the exercise. In fact, it was reported later that Robert McNamara was so irate when discovering that Liberty radio men contacted the U.S.S. America that he barked, “Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately.” Due to this traitorous behavior, the U.S.S. Liberty had to wait 16 hours after the attacks stopped before they were rescued by our military forces. It is the ONLY instance in American naval history that a rescue mission was aborted while an American ship was under attack.
    ===========================================================================================
    In all, the Israeli attack on America’s U.S.S. Liberty – a ship that sat almost motionless in the water with NO offensive weaponry while sailors sunbathed on its deck – lasted for two full hours, equaling the length of Japan’s infamous attack on Pearl Harbor. 821 holes were found in the ship resulting from aircraft rockets, cannon fire, and torpedo blasts, while over 3,000 holes from Israel’s machine gun fire were also counted.
    ===========================================================================================
    Far more tragically, the Israeli’s killed 34 Americans that fateful day, wounded 171 more, and instigated the worst U.S. naval losses since World War II. And even though U.S. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer called this attack deliberate, to this day not one guilty party in Israel or the U.S. has been brought to justice.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Three – Israeli Lies
    Let us make one thing perfectly clear before we proceed. What occurred on June 8th, 1967 was an unmitigated WAR CRIME perpetrated by the nation of Israel against the United States. To make this event even more appalling, Israel continues to lie about it to this day; and even has the audacity to place the impetus of blame on us. A case in point is Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, who flew a Mirage III fighter jet code named “Kursa” and was the first pilot to reach the U.S.S. Liberty. He said, and these are his exact words, “As far as I know, the mistake was of the U.S.S. Liberty for being there in the first place.”
    ===========================================================================================
    But this is only the first of many cowardly lies told by the Israelis to cover their tracks, for now, many years later it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that radio operators in Spain, Lebanon, and Germany heard the Israeli pilots report that they were indeed witnessing an American ship. This revelation was confirmed by U.S. Ambassador Dwight Porter, who had access to radio monitors at the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon.
    ===========================================================================================
    The evidence is even more damning when we learn that Israel had been monitoring the Liberty for a full six month before the attack, while a CIA observer at the Tel Aviv U.S. Embassy revealed that Israeli leaders had already decided on June 7th – a day before the attacks – to sink the U.S.S. Liberty if it came into what they considered “the war zone” – i.e. international waters.
    ===========================================================================================
    If you find all of this hard to swallow, then consider what Major Seth Mintz, who was in the Tel Aviv war room during the attacks, said. “Every person in that room knew without a doubt that it was an American ship and that it was the U.S.S. Liberty. There were many comments about the markings, about the extra large U.S. flag. There was never any discussion about the ship not being American. But General Dayan ordered the attack anyway. We Israelis were guilty of an outrage.” (Source – Jim Taylor in the American Free Press, August 4, 2003)
    ===========================================================================================
    We will get to Moshe Dayan’s role in this sordid affair a little later, but first let’s weigh in with what senior Israeli pilot Evan Toni told Congressman Pete McCloskey. He said that while on air patrol that day, he immediately recognized the U.S.S. Liberty, informed headquarters of its status, and was told to ignore the American flag and attack. When he refused and returned to base, he was arrested on the spot for refusing to follow orders. Another pilot confirmed this report, stating that orders came directly from IDF – the Israeli Defense Force – to attack the Liberty, and when he said that he saw an American flag, they once again told him to “attack it.”
    ===========================================================================================
    But the Israeli’s continued to tell lie after lie following the attacks, the first being that there had been only ONE aircraft involved in the attack, and that the Liberty was sailing at high speed. But please remember that the Liberty was floating at only 5 knots and that when it was dragged into port at Valleta, Malta it was filled with 821 rocket and cannon fire holes, plus over 3,000 machine gun blasts.
    ===========================================================================================
    The Israeli’s also lied by saying that they mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship – the El Quseir. But let’s examine this obviously fabricated tale. First of all, there were no Egyptian naval exercises that day. Secondly, the Liberty was twice the El Quseir’s length, four-times its weight, and had a totally different appearance. Thirdly, Egyptian ships have their numbers painted in black and in Arabic, while U.S. ships paint their letters in white and in the English language. Finally, our life rafts clearly had U.S. Navy written on them. Any member of the Israeli Defense Force would be familiar with such distinctions, and to say otherwise is a bald-faced lie.
    ===========================================================================================
    But the evidence doesn’t end there. Unbeknownst to the Israeli’s, on June 8th, 1967 the U.S. Navy had a top-secret EC-121 intelligence aircraft flying overhead the U.S.S. Liberty that recorded the entire affair. When the IDF discovered the whereabouts of this surveillance plane, they gave orders to shoot it from the sky! Think about the completely savage disregard for American lives displayed by the Israeli’s. Luckily the EC-121 evaded the Israeli missiles or we would have had even more casualties that day.
    ===========================================================================================
    With all of this information in mind, the most obvious question is: who ordered these attacks on the Liberty? The answer, quite simply, is Israeli Defense Minister General Moshe Dayan, who served under Prime Minister Levi Eshkol. This explosive news has been confirmed by many different sources, including a CIA report which states uncategorically: “Dayan personally ordered the attack on the ship, and that one of his generals adamantly opposed the action, saying, ‘This is pure murder’.” But Moshe Dayan, in addition to being a cold-blooded murderer, was also a liar, for he said that he commanded the Israeli Air Force to cease and desist as soon as they saw U.S. lettering on the Liberty. But the fact of the matter is quite different: they kept firing well beyond that point, and only quit when hearing that American aircraft were on their way to rescue the ship. Moshe Dayan is, ladies and gentlemen, a truly despicable human being, and should go down in the annals of history as a war criminal on par with any Nazi butcher.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Four – U.S. Government Cover-up
    In the aftermath of Israel’s lies and heinous behavior, Senator Barry Goldwater and Adlai Stevenson both called for full investigations, while a secret 1976 Naval Board of Inquiry report concluded that Israel’s attack upon the Liberty had been deliberate. In addition, a recent Independent Commission of Inquiry declared that Israel had committed “an act of war” against the U.S. Captain Ward Boston, in a signed affidavit, even went so far as to say that Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara told those heading a Navy inquiry to “conclude that the attack was a case of mistaken identity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.”
    ===========================================================================================
    Yet to this day, similar to the terrorist attacks on 9-11, no one has been held accountable, no one has stood up to take responsibility, and none of the guilty parties have been brought to justice. Why? What were LBJ and Robert McNamara trying to cover-up?
    ===========================================================================================
    By law, Lyndon Johnson knew that he had to order an investigation of this attack. But he was mortally afraid that the public would learn about his orders NOT save the Liberty by calling back aircraft that were already en route to rescue our ship. Johnson’s actions were so unforgivable that he actually uttered at one point, “I don’t care how many Americans are attacked; I will not attack our friend and ally, Israel.” You know the old saying: with friends like that, who needs enemies?
    ===========================================================================================
    Anyone who has read Michael Collins Piper’s Final Judgment already knows what a lackey and subservient boot-licker LBJ was to the nation of Israel; while a report in the Spotlight newspaper on November 21, 1977 pointed out that CIA counter-intelligence chief James J. Angleton also helped Israel in orchestrating this attack. In the end, LBJ brought in the ultimate Washington D.C. fixer – and later BCCI bank fraud criminal – Clark Clifford to help smooth over this mess, then pawned-off the investigation to a spineless Navy Admiral named John S. McCain Jr., father of current Arizona senator and one-time presidential candidate John McCain.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Five – The McCain Hearings
    Since the U.S.S. Liberty was attacked by Israel on June 8th, 1967 there have been 13 quote-unquote “official” hearings into this matter, but not once has a surviving Liberty crewman been allowed to testify. Not only that, the first hearing presided over by John McCain Jr. was held in secret, the press was barred from attendance, and every soldier and NSA agent aboard the ship was told they would be court-martialed if they ever testified before any commission. The government’s cover-up was so heavy-handed that military officers even imprisoned certain sailors against their will in psychiatric wards, drugged them, and threatened them with electroshock to keep them from speaking.
    ===========================================================================================
    As mentioned earlier, the first U.S.S. Liberty hearings were overseen by Admiral John S. McCain Jr., who was the European Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Navy, and were subsequently carried out by Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Thomas Moorer. Despite the seriousness of these attacks, Admiral McCain only gave his investigators one week to gather evidence.
    ===========================================================================================
    But Admiral McCain’s loathsome behavior didn’t end there, for he is quoted as telling those sailors who went against the official party line, “Shut up; we don’t want to hear that. If you ever tell the truth you’ll be court-martialed and spend the rest of your life in a military prison at Fort Leavenworth.”
    ===========================================================================================
    Even more peculiar, it was later discovered that on June 6th, 1967 – two days before the Liberty’s attack – the Joint Chiefs of Staff sent Admiral McCain an urgent message telling him to move the Liberty at least a 100 miles off the Gaza Coast. John McCain Jr. never forwarded this message. Why?
    ===========================================================================================
    To implicate himself even further, Admiral McCain’s instructions to Rear Admiral Kidd before the hearings were twofold: limit their damage to the Pentagon, and – get this – protect Israel’s reputation! As an aside, I have to ask one question: whatever happened to bringing the guilty parties to justice? With these ground rules firmly in place, even though Admirals Moorer and Kidd believed with certainty that Israel’s attack on the Liberty was deliberate – and that the Israeli pilots involved, as well as their superiors, knew it was an American ship – they still ruled it a case of mistaken identity.
    ===========================================================================================
    Admiral McCain ultimately approved these conclusions even though Captain Merlin Staring, a Navy legal officer, said the 700-page report was flawed, incomplete, and contrary to the evidence. Worse, when Newsweek magazine ran an expose’ on the Liberty, Admiral McCain was enraged; so much so that he placed every surviving crewman under a gag order.
    ===========================================================================================
    Years later, Arizona Senator John McCain penned a biography entitled Faith of My Fathers. On the book jacket it said, “John McCain learned about life and honor from his grandfather and father, both four-star admirals in the U.S. Navy. This is a memoir about their lives, their heroism, and the ways that sons are shaped and enriched by their fathers.” Senator McCain, I ask you now, what kind of honor is found in betraying your country? What kind of honor is found in selling-out the lives of those sailors who died aboard the U.S.S. Liberty? And Senator McCain, what kind of heroism is shaped from covering-up this matter for over 35 years? I think the only kind of honor and heroism that you – an influential U.S. Senator – can display right now is by immediately re-opening this investigation and shining the bright light of justice on those guilty parties who acted so reprehensibly and were responsible for this tragic, sickening event.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Six – Israel’s Motives
    At this point, the utmost question on everyone’s mind should be: what were Israel’s motives in attacking the U.S.S. Liberty? We will provide those answers in a moment, but first, please remember that the Israeli leaders at that time only “admitted their mistake” after Lyndon Johnson made a half-hearted threat to cut off their undeniable lifeblood – U.S. financial aid. Only then did they come up with their cock-n-bull story that the attacks were due to “mistaken identity.”
    ===========================================================================================
    So, what were Israel’s motives? First and foremost, Israel attacked the U.S.S. Liberty in a blatant Pearl Harbor fashion; then absolutely tried to leave NO SURVIVORS and no trace of responsibility because they wanted to blame it on the Egyptians, thus drawing America into the Six Day War on Israel’s side. By turning U.S. sentiment against the Arab world, we would thus feel justified in invading the Middle East. Such a scenario is pertinent even today, especially in light of the many Israeli ties to the 9-11 terrorist attacks, our perpetual war in the Gulf, and the fact that Israel’s primary objective has been, and always will be, the primacy of the Jewish state.
    ===========================================================================================
    Secondly, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harmon assured President Lyndon Johnson that Israel would not attack Syria during their Six Day War. But the Israeli’s had already amassed troops along the West Bank and the Golan Heights, and were primed for further invasions. But with the U.S.S. Liberty positioned off the Sinai Peninsula, it would be readily able to send back reports that Israel had indeed lied and violated their agreement. Thus, similar to their Pearl Harbor-style attack on the Egyptians (who still had their fighter jets parked on the runway) to begin the Six Day War, the Israeli’s could only engage in a similar attack on Syria after they Pearl Harbored the U.S.S. Liberty and removed it from the picture.
    ===========================================================================================
    Lastly, on the very day that the Liberty was sunk, the Israeli Defense Force, specifically Ariel “Bulldozer” Sharon, who was the commander of an armored division, was in the process of slaughtering and executing at least a thousand Egyptian and Palestinian prisoners of war, then burying them beneath the sands of the Sinai Desert. Israeli army officers admitted to this massacre years later – a clear and undeniable example of another war crime committed by the nation of Israel. Tragically, Ariel Sharon’s inhumane behavior hasn’t changed much since then, as can be seen from the way America’s Rachel Corrie was BULLDOZED to death by the Israeli military in 2003.
    ===========================================================================================
    Part Seven – Conclusion
    In the end, we must ask ourselves: why does the nation of Israel hold such a diabolical, hypnotic sway over the United States? After bombing the U.S.S. Liberty on June 8th, 1967, were the Israeli leaders apologetic for their heinous actions? No. Instead, they called the sailors who tried to reveal the truth anti-Semitic Israel haters.
    ===========================================================================================
    Even worse, why is our own government acting in the same way? If ANY other country in the world would have acted in a similar fashion and committed this act of war, we would have retaliated with a vengeance. This can be seen from Lyndon Johnson’s initial reaction when he thought Egyptian forces had attacked the Liberty. He immediately dispatched fighter planes to bomb the hell out of them and rescue our ship. But upon discovering that in fact Israel was the guilty party, he called back our jets and allowed the Liberty to be further pummeled.
    ===========================================================================================
    Ladies and gentlemen, this was an indisputable act of treason committed by Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara, and the subsequent kangaroo court cover-up hearings conducted by John McCain Jr. were clearly an obstruction of justice to the utmost degree. With that in mind, we need to ask ourselves another question: why is the U.S. government more concerned with covering for the Israelis, especially after they had been caught red-handed bombing the U.S.S. Liberty, than they are in getting justice for the families of those who were brutally killed? Plus, why weren’t the guilty Israeli’s brought to trial and convicted of war crimes? Finally, why hasn’t the Israeli government been publicly told in no uncertain terms to never ever again kill an American citizen?
    ===========================================================================================
    Even more sickening is the case of a Wisconsin town that wanted to re-name its public library in honor of the U.S.S. Liberty. But instead of applauding this patriotic effort, pro-Israeli action groups campaigned to label this town anti-Semitic, while the U.S. government demanded that no Navy personnel was allowed to attend the ceremony. What truly despicable behavior.
    ===========================================================================================
    Another point we would like to discuss is: after Israel blatantly betrayed America by attacking the Liberty, how much financial aid did we cut off to them? The answer: none. Not a red cent. Also, did you know that even though Israel is the world’s 16th wealthiest nation, and even though it only accounts for one-tenth of one-percent of the world’s total population, they still receive over 1/3 of all U.S. foreign aid? In fact, in 1997 alone, the total amount of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel, plus the interest costs associated with these payments, came to a whopping 8.7 billion dollars! That means we’re giving them nearly $24 million a day – every day. And when we say give, we mean precisely that, for our U.S. Congress has forgiven every single loan ever made to Israel and laid the entire cost of the principal and the interest in the laps of the American taxpayer. Worse, in 2002, a year of great economic peril in the U.S. where millions of our workers were losing jobs and the deficit was soaring through the roof, Israel had the audacity to ask for another $14 billion in annual aid. That comes to us giving them over $38 million a day. Folks, something is seriously wrong with this picture, and we need to start taking action to correct it.
    ===========================================================================================
    In our opinion, the first step in regard to the U.S.S. Liberty is to expose the following men for their part in the attack and cover-up: Moshe Dayan, Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, John S. McCain Jr., and Ariel Sharon. These individuals are war criminals, traitors, and are guilty of either betrayal or treason. The pages of history should remember and recount their barbaric behavior.
    ===========================================================================================
    The first step in bringing closure to this situation would be for current Arizona Senator John McCain to hold public, full-disclosure hearings to set the record straight instead of sidling up to the Israeli government and covering up these sordid actions. Senator McCain, as an influential U.S. Senator, you have the resources to accomplish this feat, and until you right the numerous wrongs committed against the Liberty on June 8, 1967, we feel you are one-in-the-same as the above-mentioned men.

    Reply

  51. Punchy says:

    There appears to be no effective way to discuss the Israeli–Palestinian conflict without the “anti-Semite”, “Hitler”, and “hate” charges being tossed around like candy at a parade…
    Amazing.

    Reply

  52. Brendan Sullivan says:

    Steve – While I have been a long time opponent of the Israeli government’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, (as well as a long time alarmist about Islamofacism) I think your analysis rather misses the mark with the current conflict. Putting aside all of the hysterical reactions of some of your pissed off posters, the current crisis could be quickly alleviated simply by Hamas releasing the hostage. That is, the one they have not murdered already. Too late for the 18-year old that was also taken hostage and introduced to a bullet in his head.
    While I get your point about the perplexing case of the USS Liberty, and our measured response, I think you have a profound underestimation of the value Israeli society puts on its soldiers. I had the pleasure and honor of visiting Israel in the eighties as part of an inter-faith peace group, and I was struck by how close a society it was and how much more they saw their soldiers as their children than we seem to see our own soldiers. War will bring that out in a people I guess. Clearly the Palestinians don’t love their own sons any less, but I remember speaking to a Palestinian father of 8 in Ramallah who shared that he was prepared to sacrifice 5 of his son’s to rid the land of Jews. Carroll’s accusations of genocidal intent are hysterical and not based in fact at all. If the Israelis had wanted to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians they could have at any time, but despite their ill-conceived occupation they have not done so. Anyways, good luck with this not that you’ve opened up this can of warms. You’ll have all sort of interested creatures crawling out from both sides. I think the earlier poster had a good point about Rove smiling. Try to keep the fleas off.

    Reply

  53. alec says:

    pathetic. a bunch of armchair pundits holding forth on issues they know little about. i wonder how many of the “experts” here have ever stepped foot in the middle east? can we take a poll? has anyone ever visited ramallah or damascus or riyadh or cairo? while we’re at it, and while we’re comparing others to nazis, who here witnessed the reality of hitler’s “final soultion”
    this conflict is certainly nothing new. blame israel, blame the arabs, whatever. it’s been happening for millenia.
    and speaking of bulldozing children, try googling “hama, syria” to see how poor old assad dealt with threats to his safety.
    hate is hate and i feel it aplenty in this comments section.
    we’re all hypocrites, YOU included.
    whatever team you’re on, count me out.

    Reply

  54. lone star liberal says:

    Thank you for this post, Steve–very measured and courageous. In the American discourse on Israel, your comments are a little drop of reason in a sea of misinformation, one-sidedness and insanity.

    Reply

  55. Gary Sugar says:

    Collective punishment, like torture, is a war crime.
    Israel and its sponsor America need to stop committing these crimes; and Israel needs to get back behind the 1967 borders where it belongs.
    Israel’s right to exist depends on the same international laws that Israel and America routinely ignore.

    Reply

  56. karenk says:

    The number of comments here regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict reiterates in my mind what I’ve believed for years. This is a topic that needs to be more publicly debated in America. My own opinion is torn. I love the Jewish people, in NYC they are and always have been at the forefront of the fight for everyones civil rights. They didn’t resort to blowing up German coffee shops etc after WWII. For this reason, the Israeli’s unfair treatment of the Palestinians has always baffled me. But ultimately I’m American and believe that we have to set our boundaries as a nation and not just go along with everything the Israelis do to the Palestinians. We need to follow our own moral compass. If we continue supporting Israel unconditionally we do it at our peril. Americans need to put American interests first.
    http://www.tpmcafe.com/user/12141/recent
    BTW if Israel is “so good at dealing with terrorists” why, 80 years later, are they still dealing with them?? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    Reply

  57. Peter Schwartz says:

    “Schwartz, this is your view of those events, what Zionists defend as the status quo.
    A more realistic look at these actions would declare that “the UN broke international law by demanding and foisting the Zionist Project upon the State of Palestine, partitioning this once fertile and cosmopolitan nation and leaving its original citizens with less than half of their country.
    As time has progressed, the Zionist intruders have slaughtered and massacred countless native Palestinians.”
    Palestine was not a “nation”, and there was no “State of Palestine.” Its “original citizens” if you will were both Arabs and Jews. And if you go back far enough, they were Jews; go back even further, they were Philistines (and others, I believe). As a matter of historical fact, Jews predate Arabs in Palestine. I believe that Arabs (originally) invaded the land of Palestine, as they did the lands from Saudi Arabia to Morocco and Spain.
    I say this not to excuse Israel’s behavior or to suggest that Jews have rights that are superior to the Palestinians. I’m not an advocate of Greater Israel, or anything close to that. But I think the historical record will show that this is true.
    The UN partitiion and two-state solution was imposed on the region in order to settle increasingly irreconciliable differences and high tensions between the two groups.
    A number of people are proposing that the world impose other arrangements on the two sides now. I wonder what that will produce? Who can say for sure. Personally, I llike a lot of what tj has to say about a possible imposed solution.
    It’s an unfortunate fact–but a fact, I think, nonetheless–that the world map has almost always been drawn and redrawn through some form of violence and the imposition of one group’s will on another. We sit here tapping away on Native American land. South and Central Americans speak Spanish because Spain invaded, killed and pillaged. The same is true of the Arab world that stretches from Saudi Arabia to the Atlantic Ocean. The UN is a valiant attempt to change that pattern, and it deserves a lot of support from us.
    Perhaps if Europeans–from France to Russia–had let the Jews among them live in peace–or done more to save them–over a century or two–there would have been less impetus for the founding of the State of Israel. This isn’t to say that the Palestinians should have to “pay” for what the Europeans did to the Jews. But it’s hard to blame the Jews for not wanting to let it happen to them again…and for being touchy on the subject.
    If the Palestinians, and the rst of the Arab world, had accepted the two-state solution back in 1948, there would be a Palestinian state today. I think I can say that with some certainty.

    Reply

  58. JS Narins says:

    To be more accurate:
    64 Hamas members arrested
    38 of them were Members of Parliament (132 member body)
    8 of them were ministers (I don’t know how many Ministers total).
    Source: Financial Times

    Reply

  59. bp32 says:

    Pissed off American: Not once did I indicate or imply that your poerspective was anti-semetic, rather I was arguing that your hypothesis regarding Israel’s causal role in Iraq was wrongheaded. If you don’t like people disagreeing with you that’s fine, but don’t turn around and try to smear me by implying that I find such perspectvies anti-semetic–I don’t.

    Reply

  60. larry birnbaum says:

    Steve,
    section9 offers a good perspective, admittedly with a sarcastic tone. What was the point of bringing up the Liberty attack in this context? OK, you’re angry. But when odd images or somewhat orthogonal thoughts come to us when angry, we need to reflect on them, not just utter them or (G-d forbid) act on them.
    Also, unfortunately, you offer a vision of calm, strong, and wise American decision-making which we might aspire to but don’t always reach. For example, in the decisions of the current administration. Having high standards is good. Projecting anger at the failure to hold those high standards onto others is not good.

    Reply

  61. bob h says:

    Israel is behaving with an arrogance borne of the knowledge that they will not be seriously criticized or sanctioned by the Bush administration.

    Reply

  62. jeffers says:

    The Palestinians had a democratic election; we did not like the results; good opportunity to destroy the democratically elected government and have another election that results in a better choice. And they better not vote for Hezzebollah after Hamas falls, or the same thing will happen.
    Get your elections in order peoples of the world!

    Reply

  63. Jerome Gaskins says:

    Just in case I haven’t made myself clear:
    from its actions since 1948, I see Israel as a nation of thieves, cowards and unholy belligerents. If that makes me an anti-semite, so be it. There was a time when the paranoia inherent in that curse was well warranted and appropriate, but it is gone now, and the curse is a tell, as if the curser were trying to hide the truth of the expression they are trying to shout down.
    I don’t think I hate Israel, because if it were to change its ways and stop being a fucken drama drag queen, peace would easily settle upon that land.
    But as long as they act like they have more rights than the Palestinians, as long as they believe that what is written (by people) in their holy books is supposed to define and control their behavior toward their neighbors, and as long as they try to convince the world that they are STILL victims, I will have nothing in my heart for Israel but contempt and disappointment.

    Reply

  64. Jerome Gaskins says:

    “Please provide your sources for Israeli ‘intent’ on genocide. Also, I question your application of the term ‘genocide’ without consideration to method – after all, I can’t commit genocide with spitballs. I might intend to, but does that really qualify?”
    Sue, get real. You KNOW Israel is trying to wipe the Palestinians out just as sure as Adolf was trying to wipe them out! If not, why couldn’t they share Palestine under one flag? Why are children dying every doggone day at the hands of the Zionist army? Why is the political reality rigged so aggressively against Palestine?
    I think most people who have investigated this conflict know in their hearts that Israel is exacting revenge for the Holocaust on the Palestinians. If this was the war between Ethiopia and Eritrea, rhetoric and action would be much more civil. Hell, the rhetoric between Bush and Hussain was more civil!
    Stop making excuses for Israel. They are beating on the Palestinians abusively, and make a terrible noise if Palestine stands up to them and hits back. What other country would be stupid and brutal enough to take over a country, change it’s name and keep the former nation’s citizens penned up for 50 years, all the while making the pen smaller.
    Palestine has every right to retaliate against the people who make war upon her. That includes taking prisoners of war, and being protected by the Geneva Conventions.
    What’s gonna wind up happening is that some nation is gonna get fed up with this shit and focus its force on Israel. Even though they have nukes, they can still be beat down. And they will deserve every lick, every pain and every loss they get.

    Reply

  65. Carroll says:

    Not to belabor the point Steve made about the US and the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty….but I just want to restate my opinion that the US response was “betrayal” of Americans…and had we acted to curb Israel right then and there they might have learned a lesson.
    But as one poster mentioned, the anniversary of the USS Liberty comes and goes and no thought is given to it except by the familes of the dead and the survivors.
    So for the survivors I will post here some excerpts from Bamfords book shown at the site that contains his response to the zionist minons at the NR who typically tried to smear him also as an anti-semite for exposing the inside info on the Liberty cover-up.
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/bamford.html
    — Lieutenant General Marshall S. Carter, director of the National Security Agency at the time: “There was no other answer than it was deliberate.”
    — Dr. Louis Tordella, the deputy director of NSA at the time: “I believed the attack might have been ordered by some senior commander on the Sinai Peninsula [where the massacres were taking place] who wrongly suspected that the Liberty was monitoring his activities.” Tordella also scrawled across the top page of the formal Israeli “mistake” report, “A nice whitewash.”
    — Major General John Morrison, NSA deputy director of Operations at the time: “Nobody believes that explanation. The only conjecture that we ever made that made any near sense is that the Israelis did not want us to intercept their communications at that time.”
    — Walter Deeley, the senior NSA official who conducted an internal NSA investigation of the incident: “There is no way that they didn’t know that the Liberty was American.”
    — Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: “I have to conclude that it was Israel’s intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American.”
    — Captain William L. McGonnagle, the Liberty’s commander: “After many years I finally believe that the attack was deliberate.”
    — Phillip F. Tourney, president of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and a survivor of the attack: “The Israelis got by with cold-blooded, premeditated murder of Americans.”
    — Richard Helms, Director of Central Intelligence at the time: “Your chapter on the Liberty was exactly right.”
    — George Christian, press secretary to President Johnson at the time: “I became convinced that an accident of this magnitude was too much to swallow.”
    — Paul C. Warnke, Under Secretary of the Navy at the time: “I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units…. I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests.”
    — Dean Rusk, Secretary of State at the time: “The Liberty was flying an American flag. It was not all that difficult to identify, and my judgment was that somewhere along the line some fairly senior Israeli official gave the go-ahead for these attacks.”
    — David G. Nes, the deputy head of the American mission in Cairo at the time: “I don’t think that there’s any doubt that it was deliberate…. [It is] one of the great cover-ups of our military history.”
    — George Ball, Under Secretary of State at the time: “American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of its citizens.”
    …and that last remark by Sec of State Ball tells you all you need to know about why Israel and their zionist supporters in our own goverment be seperated from the US.

    Reply

  66. Carroll says:

    Sue, honey…you are wasting your time with this worn out ploy…
    “Carroll,
    “Genocide is genocide because is it the “Intent” involved, not the methods.”
    “Please provide your sources for Israeli ‘intent’ on genocide. ”
    I don’t have to provide you with any sources and your “request for sources’ is a worn out tactic for zionist activist..
    And this….”Also, I question your application of the term ‘genocide’ without consideration to method – after all, I can’t commit genocide with spitballs. I might intend to, but does that really qualify?
    LOL..yes honey I could kill you with spitballs if I was starving you to death as the same time.
    Go to bed, or do your homework, you are embrassing yourself with this kindergarden reasoning.

    Reply

  67. Carroll says:

    Steve’s inclusion of the USS Liberty incident is perfectly appropiate.
    In considering what needs to be done about Israel, and the ME in relation to Israel, and also in relation to the US, we need to take into consideration their past history and behavior. If the frog hadn’t been stung to death giving the scorpion a ride across the river you could ask him if the scorpion changes it nature.
    The USS Liberty incident was and still remains a betrayal of Americans by their own goverment. The US goverment betrayed the American dead and the survivors of the USS Liberty and denied them justice. It was the first instance of Americans “offically” being betrayed by their own goverment for the benefit of zionist and Israel. But it wasn’t the last, and it has only gotten worst over the years as the zionist have covered their transgression by hiding behind anti-semitism and pushing the concept that America and Israel are “One and the Same”. They aren’t.
    Time for Americans to say “Never Again” and enforce it ….by riding our goverment of every individual and influence who is not for America,the original American principles of fairness and Americans first.

    Reply

  68. Jim Bruin says:

    Steve:
    Straight from Stan’s Donuts …. (been a while)
    Speakin’ the words “USS Liberty” invites a whole bunch of contumely …
    Some of us know better.
    As Rather parted: “Courage.”
    I continue to appreciate the work you’re doing. And it ain’t gettin’ easier …
    Jim B.
    Mill Valley

    Reply

  69. Pissed Off American says:

    “That’s right, Steve, you’ve let the Totenkopfverbande out. You just couldn’t help but dredge up the U.S.S. LIBERTY incident to signal to the rest of your readers just how shifty them backstabbing Israelis are! On cue, the latent anti-Semitism and Jew-baiting of the Modern Left came out with a vengeance.”
    Steve, I know you asked us to be civil, but do we gotta???? This guys an asshole, pure and simple.

    Reply

  70. section9 says:

    Oh, GREAT Steve! Thanks a lot. I should actually fax this whole comments section over to Karl Rove and Ken Mehlman.
    That’s right, Steve, you’ve let the Totenkopfverbande out. You just couldn’t help but dredge up the U.S.S. LIBERTY incident to signal to the rest of your readers just how shifty them backstabbing Israelis are! On cue, the latent anti-Semitism and Jew-baiting of the Modern Left came out with a vengeance.
    This is great. The RNC will love this. I mean, it’s not like we’re going to lose our majority anymore or anything. After all, when Larry Sabato throws in the towel, it’s time for liberals to find the nearest tall building from which to jump. But the notion, peddled by liberal “progressives” in these comments, that the Jooos want to impose a “Final Solution” on the Arabs is just peachy. Well, for us. I mean, once the Angry Left’s True Face starts getting out to the Jewish Community, well, let’s just say there’ll be a big smile on Karl’s puss.
    Too bad, Steve. You want to be a Major Player for Team Hillary, but you ended up publishing an online version of “The Spotlight”. That’s not only Bad Mojo, that’s Bad Mojito….

    Reply

  71. section9 says:

    Too bad, so sad. Hamas had a chance, a serious chance, to come out as a popular, peacemaking alternative to Arafat’s corrupt Fatah moneymaking empire. Everyone in Palestine knew that Arafat and Fatah were in it for the cash, and they stole from everyone. Now, one of Hamas’ head guys, sitting pretty in Damascus, starts ordering kidnappings to see how far he can push the Israelis.
    Hamas is supposed to be running a sovereign government, remember? This isn’t a rampage. This is called “Jews trying to survive.” This is the Israelis telling Hamas that under no circumstances will another suicide bombing campaign be tolerated. If one starts, the entire Hamas leadership, up to and including the head ass clown in Damascus, will be liquidated. The Israelis have just showed them the opportunity cost of not remaining at peace with the Jewish state.
    Hamas was pushing the envelope to see how far it can go. Behind them are Hezboallah in Lebanon with a hand-up from their friends in the Iranian Pasadaran. And I suppose the guy in Damascus was operating without the cooperation of the Boy President of Damascus? But this is a liberal blog, so you don’t see this. Oh, and it’s Bush’s fault.
    Too bad the Western Freaking Democracy always gets the lion’s share of blame on this blog. Oh well, the spirit of Appeasement didn’t die at Munich, I suppose.

    Reply

  72. Pissed Off American says:

    “Please provide your sources for Israeli ‘intent’ on genocide.”
    Can’t. They’re all dead.

    Reply

  73. Pissed Off American says:

    “But my mind is open. These are tough matters — and i hope that we get to a better place in Israeli-Palestinian matters soon, but my sense is that the situation just got significantly worse. That said, the deterioration may cause Bush to finally jump in to things again.”
    Oh Gawd……please, spare us the spectacle and disaster that occurs anytime and everytime that feckless buffoon “jumps into” ANYTHING. Do you REALLY want to see matters deteriorate further? God willing, the only “jumping” that clown will do is OUT of Air Force One. At 10,000 feet.

    Reply

  74. Sue says:

    Carroll,
    “Genocide is genocide because is it the “Intent” involved, not the methods.”
    Please provide your sources for Israeli ‘intent’ on genocide. Also, I question your application of the term ‘genocide’ without consideration to method – after all, I can’t commit genocide with spitballs. I might intend to, but does that really qualify?
    As for my slur, that was also an @SSumption, based on your assertion that the U.S. had “DECLARED ITSELF AND ISRAEL ABOVE ANY LAWS IN THE UNIVERSE.” I figured it was ‘over the top’ night. Your “without justifying the Israeli’s nazi like conduct by citing their eternal victimhood” was an @ssumption as well. I had no intention of doing anything of the sort. Although, I’m kind of curious as to how me being a little shit validates your opinion about Zionism being a racist cult.
    Mangels, I would love to see our aid dramatically scaled back and a great deal more spent on other things. I’ve got two kids in public school – I know all about it.
    Yeah, POA, I heard about Iraq, and I happen to think that’s a BAD thing, but that’s another thing for another time, yes?
    As far as, “http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
    Posted by Socrates
    Thanks for posting that. If you didn’t, I would have. Very few Americans know how lopsided the violence is, and just how far Israel has gone in their oppression of the Palestinians. People decry the suicide bombings, as do I. But what weapons do the impoverished Palestinans have against the American funded modern Israeli military?”
    What weapons do they have? Question: true or false? If someone puts bigger military-type weapons in their hands, they will have the SAME WEAPONS THEY HAVE NOW only the ones they are choosing to use will make bigger holes. The only thing that will accomplish will be to even out the numbers. So I guess the real question would be what other weapons do they have now that are either not being used, or not being used properly?
    Truth be told, at the end of the day when I’m snuggled in my bed, I strongly suspect it is sacrilege when innocent blood is spilled on holy land, and that if blood calls out for blood then surely the very stones themselves cry out. It’s making everyone over there crazy, and it’s freakin’ contagious.

    Reply

  75. Steve Clemons says:

    I have had a large slew of responses to this post both here on the blog and even more by emai. Quite a number agree with my perspective and many others don’t and have written thoughtful critiques and alternative takes on the israel-Palestine matter. That said, the responses have been 99.9% civil and much appreciated. One response came in labeling me anti-semitic, a “hitler”-lover, etc. — and is the type of counter-productive commentary that makes sensible debate and discussion about this matters almost impossible in many organizations. I won’t debate ad hominem attacks — and those types of remarks about myself or anyone else will be deleted.
    Keep your points thoughtful, intelligent and civil. There are many different views on these matters — and while some agreed with my general take, they saw my inclusion of the USS Liberty as wrong-headed and not useful. I think I disagree with them because my point was not to rub salt in wounds, but was rather to remind people of a bit of history in which the US might have reacted furiously and instead figured out a way not to respond disproportionately. There are many other examples I could use as well — but the USS Liberty interested me as I was discussing Jim Bamford’s book, Puzzle Palace, i which I first read of this 25 years ago — with several former high ranking national intelligence officials.
    But my mind is open. These are tough matters — and i hope that we get to a better place in Israeli-Palestinian matters soon, but my sense is that the situation just got significantly worse. That said, the deterioration may cause Bush to finally jump in to things again.
    More later.
    — Steve Clemons

    Reply

  76. Jerome Gaskins says:

    “The State of Israel was created through an act of the United Nations. The same act created a Palestinian state, which was universally rejected by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world in favor of war.”
    Schwartz, this is your view of those events, what Zionists defend as the status quo.
    A more realistic look at these actions would declare that “the UN broke international law by demanding and foisting the Zionist Project upon the State of Palestine, partitioning this once fertile and cosmopolitan nation and leaving its original citizens with less than half of their country.
    As time has progressed, the Zionist intruders have slaughtered and massacred countless native Palestinians. Zionists have broken and delayed every attempt by grumbling, disenfranchised and weary Palestinians to accept a peace which leaves them with ever less of their homes and in an apartheid state in which they are forbidden to travel within the confines of their native homeland.
    Today, the Zionists continue to feed on a daily diet of Palestinian citizens and their children with impunity, having seduced their patron into somnambulant acceptance of their genocidal behavior.
    Even when Zionists exhibit clearly psychotic behavior, such as storming a region of the Palestinian refugee villages with all the violence and greed for blood of Satan, Don US does nothing but sip his cappucino and nod sleepily in the shade of the disease of the Bush “administration”.”
    Now, if you don’t agree with the opinion of THE REST of the world, there’s no law against stupidity. And just as I have insulted you by calling you stupid, you may call me an anti-semite all you want. After all, everyone knows there’s no such thing as a Semite, except in some flawed pseudo-academic works that parallel numerology in rigor and veracity.

    Reply

  77. Zathras says:

    For me the whole Israeli-Palestinian controversy falls into a big category called Other People’s Problems. But this is a minority view in the blogosphere.
    So I’ll confine myself to observing that Ariel Sharon’s stroke left an enormous void in the middle of the Israeli political scene. Traditionally, Israeli governments scrape by with small majorities in the Knesset and so have relatively limited freedom of action in many areas. Sharon’s margin in his last election along with his outsized personality made him Israel’s unquestioned leader. He could take steps away from longtime Likud positions and maintain power. Ohlmert’s position is far more tenuous, and he must be aware that if Israelis perceive him as letting the Palestinians get away with anything his lease on the top job won’t last long.
    So I’m not surprised that the Israeli government has reacted neuralgically — and, I am afraid, unwisely — to Palestinian terror gangs incessant but ineffectual rocket attacks from Gaza. Israeli psychology is such that only leaders trusted to be strong can afford to be conciliatory; leaders who suspect they are not yet so trusted will go out of their way to demonstrate their willingness to answer several times over any Palestinian provocation. Of which, sad to say, there will never be any shortage, notwithstanding Saudi Prince Turki’s wise advice to the Palestinians the other day.

    Reply

  78. unscriptedunedied says:

    I completely agree with you. I included a link in my diary on daily kos to your article.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/29/193031/466

    Reply

  79. nitro says:

    Israel is on acid…

    Reply

  80. Pissed Off American says:

    “Perhaps we should reconsider our pursuit of OBL?”
    No need, Bush already did that. Thats why we are in Iraq. Haven’t you heard?

    Reply

  81. Pissed Off American says:

    “And what is with this “final solution” rhetoric? Pissed off American you sound like some wild conspiracy theorist–‘Israel is pulling the strings in Iraq’, etc, etc. Give me a break–you need to get over the “Israeli Lobby” meme already.”
    Tell you what. If you are going to rebut my comments, do so with something other than such predictable simplistic drool.
    Are you denying that Israel abetted these criminals in Washington with their deceptive lead up to the invasion of Iraq, or are now trying to commit the same kind of inflamatory posturing against Iran? Or how about making a mock strafing run over a Syrian leader’s home?
    Is it your contention that Israel will allow an Iranian backed Shiite theocracy to come to power in Iraq??? Surely you aren’t that fuckin’ stupid.
    And if they WON’T allow it, how will they stop it?? By nuking Bagdad??? Or perhaps with black ops and the clandestine manipulation of the “insurgency”? Which option makes the most sense, genius?
    Do you want me to recap the past??? Link to thier historical deceptions??? Are you denying that the Mossad has been CAUGHT RED HANDED impersonating Al Qaeda operatives? Do you want me to dredge up the COUNTLESS EXAMPLES of Israeli acts of espionage carried out HERE IN THE UNITED STATES??? You asses would have the American people DENY REALITY, and when we choose not to do so you drone on with your mindless chants about “anti-semitism”.
    Go bulldoze some more children, or bombard another beach or two. Surely you will win the Palestinian hearts that way, eh?

    Reply

  82. Carroll says:

    Sue…
    “Are the Palestinians living in ghettos? Yes. Are their movements restricted? Yes. Are they being herded up into box cars and slaughtered like cattle? No, unless you have new information for us. And no, I do not consider oppression to equal genocide.”
    Well I do…slow motion genocide, fast forward genocide…no difference except the time table. Genocide is genocide because is it the “Intent” involved, not the methods.
    I have never read the Protocals of the Elders, I depend mostly on the official historical records such as the British National Archives and the US Presidential Libaries for my information concerning the zionist movement and Israel but your resort to that type slur tells me that I am coreect in my opinion that the cultist racism of the German nationalist and the Zionst nationalist are exactly the same.

    Reply

  83. DC says:

    It’s easy to criticise Israel for its horrid actions, which speak for themselves. However, whenever you do, several heads pop up shouting, “anti-semite.” We will never get anywhere with that. Fact is, Israel doesn’t need to defend itself, immediately, with “force,” whenever the Palestinians pull a stunt. Steve has it right when he points out there is a lack of maturity in the region.

    Reply

  84. Pissed Off American says:

    Go look at some of the stats when it comes to Israeli and Palestinian violence. It might surprise you.
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
    Posted by Socrates
    Thanks for posting that. If you didn’t, I would have. Very few Americans know how lopsided the violence is, and just how far Israel has gone in their oppression of the Palestinians. People decry the suicide bombings, as do I. But what weapons do the impoverished Palestinans have against the American funded modern Israeli military? What options do they have? And now, with these sanctions against the Palestinans, the oppression only becomes more draconian. What Palestinian is going to press for peace after seeing their children STARVE under the heavy hand of an American backed system of oppression that only favors an ever increasingly hostile and rabid Israeli disdain for the Muslims?
    What Muslim nation could get away with making a mock strafing run over Washington, or over Tel Aviv?

    Reply

  85. Carroll says:

    I have good news for you Mangels…that day is here. The New Rule is everyone can say what they think, question whatever they want to question. Pass this good news on, as soon as everyone knows about the New Rule, all things will be sorted out and start to change for the better.
    “The day American’s can freely discuss and debate such matters in public without the fear of retribution will be our first victory in our (and Israel’s) “war on terror”.
    Posted by mangels at June 29, 2006 04:55 PM

    Reply

  86. mangels says:

    Sue,
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, Israel can takecare of itself. I move to withdraw all US aid from Israel as well as the billions of dollar of aid money we pay to Israel’s neighbors to keep them in check. We have better use for that money in the United States. I’m sure you’d agree.

    Reply

  87. Sue says:

    Carroll,
    I think the point you are trying to make is that the theory of ‘racial superiority’ is, well, shitty, regardless of race (or religion). On it’s face, I agree with that. However, the Israelis aren’t angels but the Master Race experiment was, as I said before, wholesale slaughter. Are the Palestinians living in ghettos? Yes. Are their movements restricted? Yes. Are they being herded up into box cars and slaughtered like cattle? No, unless you have new information for us. And no, I do not consider oppression to equal genocide.
    Do you really think the State of Israel would suddenly collapse if the US withdrew its support, monetary, military and political? Bah. I do not agree.
    Still holding onto your copy of ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, eh?

    Reply

  88. lalla says:

    Condi’s mealy-mouth irrelevent mewlings aside, from *Shmuel Rosner and **JTA’s reporting; “let the Palestinians sweat a little” and “The Bush administration will not force Israel into concessions”, there’s tacit adminstration acceptance of Israel’s behavior in Gaza and whatever Olmert wants vis a vis the territories eventually granted to the Pals.
    *http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/732542.html
    **http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=3341
    SOS.
    If our government accepts the mass “arrests”, destruction of power plants, humanitarian crisis in Gaza etc, as Israel’s right, it could throw multiple monkey wrenches into diplomatic efforts on other fronts…such as the Iran issue, TWOT, rallying support for the Iraqi puppet government, NK etc.
    According to the***Boston Globe, the main power plant bombed by Israel is insured under a special US program. Guess who controls the dispersal of the repair monies?
    Why, it’s those self-righteous champions of democractic/humanitarian values strutting around the halls of Congress, that’s who.
    ***http://tinyurl.com/g6q8h

    Reply

  89. Carroll says:

    Dear Peter Schwartz …you really should read Jackie Roses’s a “Question of Zion”..being a jew herself she does a excellent job of describing the “collective neurosis” of zionism thru out it’s history and how it attracks those jews who are already predesposed to neurosis and paranoia and low self esteem and are eager to take on the zionist myth as their identfy and reason for their existance.
    Excellent book for anyone to understand why “not all jews” are zionist and why others are….just plain old “cultism”…jewish or gentile, some people are just mentally bent to buy into the myths and the cultist groups.

    Reply

  90. Peter Schwartz says:

    “”For some reason, it is easy to accept that every people has a right to a homeland, except when it comes to the Jewish people.”
    It still amazes me that people continue to confuse a religion with a race. Racially, Jews and Palestinians are identical. But even if we allow that argument, it still falls apart. I can’t think of one nation that is officially the “homeland” of one race or another…except Israel…which is not really homeland to a race of people, but rather a theocracy, similar to many nations in that matter.”
    First of all, Jews are not a race; nor are Arabs. They are a people or an ethnic group. More akin to Europeans or North Americans. (There is the caucasian race, the Asian race, the negro race, etc. No European race or French race exists.
    Second, Jews are both an ethnic and a religious group. In Judaism, there is no clear distinction between peoplehood and religion. Put another way, the Western concept of religion as something separate from peoplehood doesn’t really exist in Judaism, even though Jews may be more or less religious, or even non-religious. For many non-religious Jews, religious rituals, say the Passover seder, are not religious acts, but expressions of their culture.
    Israel is not a theocracy. Many, many Israeli citizens are not Jews. Saudi Arabia would be closer to a theocracy (no Jews live there), as would Iran (few, if any Jews remain there). Should we be destroying Saudi and Iran because they don’t allow the practice of other religions? What should we do about Mecca? I believe that a non-Muslim cannot step foot in Mecca or mingle with the haj without, what?, being killed? I wonder what international law has to say about this? Why is the Arab world not up in arms about the terrible theocratic oppression going on in Mecca, the heart of the Muslim world, the place where every Muslim in the world is duty bound to visit before he dies? What does international law have to say about this? Why are we never (really) talking about this issue? The last I heard, all three major religions have shrines in Jerusalem, and anyone in the world is free to visit there.

    Reply

  91. Carroll says:

    Well Sue…would you care to explain the difference between the two?….without justifying the Israeli’s nazi like conduct by citing their eternal victimhood.
    Germans-Israelis..same mentality, same sickness.
    The only reason the Israelis haven’t wiped out Palestine in one swope certainly isn’t because they have any morals, it is their fear that that outrage would finally turn the US public totally against them…so they carry out their genocide slower and use straw man excuses for every little bite they take out of Palestine.

    Reply

  92. mangels says:

    Steve,
    Speaking of the USS Liberty, last June 8th came and went, and not one acknowledgement from our mainstream media, nor our public officials, on the 39th anniversary of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty that ended the lives of 34 and wounding of 174 US servicemen. Even though this attack could easily be overshadowed by the Vietnam War, its importance and impact on US Middle East policy has been felt ever since from oil embargo against the US in the early 70’s, to 9/11, our war on terror, our current war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and ironically Israel’s assult on Gaza.
    The USS Liberty and the heroes that served on it were our eyes and ears to the events that unfolded during the Arab/Israel Six Day War in 1967. Israel’s attack on the Liberty essentially blinded US leaders to a seminal event leading to the ‘war on terror’….. Israel’s land grab for Gaza, Sinai Peninsula, West Bank, and the Golan Heights. A land grab and occupation that to this day is a primary motivator for Islamic terrorism. Three days into the Six Day War Israeli leaders feared that if intelligence continued to flow through the USS Liberty, US diplomats would have ‘obstructed’ their land grab objective….hence the attack was ordered.
    The day American’s can freely discuss and debate such matters in public without the fear of retribution will be our first victory in our (and Israel’s) “war on terror”.

    Reply

  93. baffled says:

    “…. among other things, did much to aid lesser developed countries in Africa and elsewhere.”
    You’re right, i vividly recall their strong support of the white minority government in South Africa.

    Reply

  94. tj says:

    Why do we let these two Semitic cousins constantly battle it out with each other? The old song lyric of “no one’s right when everyone is wrong” rings true when it comes to this conflict. The Israeli’s have every right to “defend” themselves, but the grievances of the Palestinians protesting the continual “collateral damage” of innocent children being obliterated by errant bombs, missiles and bullets cannot be gainsayed.
    How about a prosaic analogy…let’s imagine that we all live in a pretty nice neighborhood where everyone gets along fairly well. Of course there are always minor spats here and there, but with social comity and respect, these disputes are resolved without much rancor or conflict.
    Now lets suppose that there are two neighbors who constanly are bickering and fighting with one another, and that at some point, the tension escalates and shots are fired. One of these errant shots kills another neighbor living down the street.
    The community at large is so incensed that these two families cannot settle their disputes and are now threatening the general tranquility and peace of their neighbors that action must be taken to ensure the community is not adversely affected by these two radical families.
    The response is that the community burns down both their houses and kills the families before more innocent neighbors are killed because of the insanity and irrationality of these two clans to properly settle their disputes.
    This to me is the crux of the matter in regard to the continuing dispute of the Israelis and Palestinians.
    In a world in which the Cold War ended with a wimper and not a bang; where a Marxist terrorist imprisoned for 27 years can declare “let bygones be bygones” and two years later be elected President of South Africa, then certainly the world can and should “impose” peace on these unruly neighbors whose argument threatens the peace of all around them
    Ergo, the solution to the Israeli – Palestinian conflict is:
    1. the US must guarantee Israel’s right to existence – any attack which threatens their annihilation is an attack on the US and much like NATO, the US will intervene militarily in times of crises.
    2. There must be a Palestinian homeland according to the 1967 borders. Israel must dismantle their settlements, withdraw its troops and slowly remove portions of the wall.
    3. An Arab League – US – Israeli summit meeting must be held at which Israel’s right to exist is recognized by all countries in the region.
    4. To “encourage” this recognition, a mideast “Marshall Plan” will be announced pledging $200 billion over 10 years to help the “transition” of Palestine and Israel as well as assist regional countries develop an economic trade block which will get preferential tariff and tax treatment.
    5. A multinational “peace” brigade will initially patrol the border between Israel and Palestine to ensure that violence does not disrupt the process.
    By following the above measures, the “neighborhood” can be secured and the warring factions can be placated.
    Israel will be secure in the knowledge that they are recognized and that the US will intervene to guarantee their safety.
    The Palestinians are content that they will finally have their own country.
    The surrounding mideast countries will benefit from the enormous financial aid stimulus and the world will benefit by finally solving the last lingering conflict from the past millenia.
    Any comments?

    Reply

  95. Socrates says:

    Why is it we hear about Palestinian violence over and over but we never here much about what the Israelis have done? Why was this story forgotten about so soon?
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/
    Go look at some of the stats when it comes to Israeli and Palestinian violence. It might surprise you.
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    Reply

  96. vachon says:

    That post isn’t going to win you many friends, Steve.
    A pox on both their houses: Israel is can barely contain it’s enthusiasm at having an excuse to beat the crap out of the Palestinians.
    The Palestinians had a chance to start over with new, non-corrupt leadership and the full attention of the world community who very much wanted to see them succeed.

    Reply

  97. Zorro says:

    “For some reason, it is easy to accept that every people has a right to a homeland, except when it comes to the Jewish people.”
    It still amazes me that people continue to confuse a religion with a race. Racially, Jews and Palestinians are identical. But even if we allow that argument, it still falls apart. I can’t think of one nation that is officially the “homeland” of one race or another…except Israel…which is not really homeland to a race of people, but rather a theocracy, similar to many nations in that matter.

    Reply

  98. Sue says:

    Carroll, are you serious? Granted, it sucks to be Palestinian (not that it’s all that great to be an Israeli and get blown up on a bus or in a cafe), but I really do think there is more than a “dime’s bit of difference” between Palestinian oppression and wholesale slaughter. But that’s just my opinion.
    And yes, we’ve known for some time that we’re ‘above the law.’ That didn’t happen overnight.

    Reply

  99. Peter Schwartz says:

    Carroll wrote: “Let me repeat that…THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS REJECTED ALL INTERNATIONAL LAWS AND UNIVERSAL AGREED ON RULES OF CONDUCT AND HAS DECLARED ITSELF AND ISRAEL ABOVE ANY LAWS IN THE UNIVERSE.
    Just think about what that means….”
    The State of Israel was created through an act of the United Nations. The same act created a Palestinian state, which was universally rejected by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world in favor of war. BTW, the original State of Israel was much, much smaller than it was even in 1967 (after two wars). For some reason, it is easy to accept that every people has a right to a homeland, except when it comes to the Jewish people. When a conflict goes on and on…as this has for over half a century…both sides become more extreme and the extremists come out to wreak havoc because moderation and reason appear not to work. The Greater Israel movement only gained real traction late in the game. For most of its history, Israel had a socialist and secular government that, among other things, did much to aid lesser developed countries in Africa and elsewhere. For most of that same period, the Palestinian leadership, Arafat, pursued an overt policy of pushing Israel into the sea–as did her neighbors. This policy was abandoned not because Arab leaders discovered international law and its importance for world peace, but because they failed to defeat Israel militarily, and it was smarter to jaw jaw than to war war. If we’re all concerned about international law–and we should be–then the first thing we ought to say is that Israel has a right to exist in peace without the threat of war from its neighbors, without rockets pouring into settlements within long-established borders, and without suicide bombers blowing up pizza parlors. When all the Arab countries open up embassies in Israel and invite Israel to do the same in their countries, then we will have something like adherence to international law.

    Reply

  100. jerry says:

    I like it when they run over peaceful female protestors with bulldozers… a real concern for humanity there.

    Reply

  101. Carroll says:

    Congradulations Steve for calling a spade a spade.
    There is not a dime’s worth of difference between the German’s “Master Race” experiment and the Israeli’s “Chosen People” delusion.
    I want every American to pay attention to one thing once again most apparent in the US stance when it comes to itself and Israel..that the US has in effect condoned this latest violation of international law and “collective punishment” by the Israelis. We have for decades enabled the outlaw Israelis and America is now “Isramerica” in the eyes of the world.
    Let me translate this…the USA NO LONGER abides by or recongizes or respects the INTERNATIONAL Laws we ourselves help write and the rest of the world signed onto after WWII.
    Let me repeat that…THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS REJECTED ALL INTERNATIONAL LAWS AND UNIVERSAL AGREED ON RULES OF CONDUCT AND HAS DECLARED ITSELF AND ISRAEL ABOVE ANY LAWS IN THE UNIVERSE.
    Just think about what that means….

    Reply

  102. Sue says:

    The capture of a soldier is an act of war. It isn’t the start of one, just another act in the play.
    By the way, we opened the door for the Assad flyover with our Afganistan invasion. Assad is supporting and protecting exiled Hamas leaders and others who are planning and providing support for attacks in Israel – is Israel just supposed to let it go? Especially when one of them is saying “yes, kidnap MORE, not less”? Perhaps we should reconsider our pursuit of OBL? He planned attacks on our country and killed three thousand – is that the magic number Hamas has to hit to make Israel’s response ‘proportional’?
    I wonder, though, what young Mr. Gilad Shalit thinks of all the fuss. God willing, he’s still alive.

    Reply

  103. Blue Heron says:

    I usually agree with your point of view but think that you are totally over the line with this one. Dredging up a 39 year old incident like the Liberty to chastise Israel. 10 separate U.S. investigations including the Clifford Report, U.S. Navy Court, Joint Chiefs of Staff, CIA and 3 Israeli additional investigations have found Israel free of any malicious intent and concluded rather that the terrible incident resulted from confusion in the midst of an incendiary war in 1967.
    It is so typical of Americans to play the Israeli blame game, on the one hand throwing up our hands because of the restrictions on Palestinian travel and then reacting with typical silence on our part when a crossing station gets suicide bombed. As an American son of an Israeli Sabra, I have lived through a war and another major conflict in Israel. I am proud that the lives of its soldiers are so highly valued. The Israeli government has tried every rational way to setup a livable 2 state solution and have been thwarted every time. How does the maxim go? – the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The real truth of the matter is that the Hamas led government and the Islamic/hezbollah resistance has indicated its desire to throw every jew into the sea and to totally islamize the middle east and the Arabian Peninsula.
    Marquis of Queensbury rules and concessions have never resulted in any peace for Israel – the only thing that its opponents respect is strength.
    I am always amazed that the self defeating plight of the Palestinians gets so much traction in the Arab world, while Turkey and Iraq could massacre far more Kurds who have similar hopes for a homeland without batting an eye. Assad could kill 80,000 at Hama or the Jordanian Hashemite minority government can waste thousands of Palestinians during Black September and the events are met with stone silence. The world can only handle jews as victims or martyrs and Israel is expected to adhere to a code of moral behavior and a ration of general abuse that the rest of world would never countenance.

    Reply

  104. Ducktape says:

    I agree with Matthew (first poster) that it is a brave post, Steve. And I’m also sad that simply making this observation of the reality that you see is something we have to consider “brave.” I have no doubt you’ll have (or have had) the “will of God!” and “you’re anti-Semitic!” posters.

    Reply

  105. Peter Schwartz says:

    I agree: Israel does go over the line. And I agree with M&W that America does need to look at its interests vis a vis Israel in a more objective light. But, on the other hand, when you consider that Israel has had to fight for its life for its entire existence–some times in all out wars; other times against terrorism–it is easy to see why Israel goes over the line, even if one can’t excuse it. The Palestinians’ refusal to accept (except with their fingers crossed) Israel’s right to exist is the fundamental problem. And it has been since the beginning. Had the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab accepted the two-state solution at the beginning, the Palestinian state now be 58 years old, at least as big as Israel, with its capital (probably) in Jerusalem. Even at this late date, it is news that Hammas and Fattah are negotiating and reaching an agreement to accept Israel right to exist. This is so basic, and has been chewed over so many times, we forget how important it is. Perhaps because 99% of the world’s population lives in countries whose basic existence isn’t called into question–morally, politically, or militarily. Rockets still–and suicide bombers until recently–attacked within the pre-1967 borders. This isn’t a question of the occupied territories, so-called, it’s a question of whether Israel gets to exist at all. When Israel dealt with a country that did accept its existence, it willingly gave back the Sinai. It unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. It certainly has plans to pull out of much of the West Bank. I’m certain they would give up even more if they were assured of a friendly, or even a non-hostile neighbor. But when one’s neighbor is led by a political party that has sworn to annihilate you, things do get a little touchy. Imagine a Canada or a Mexico had been pursuing that course for that past half century with us, and we were the size of, say, Delaware.

    Reply

  106. Peter Schwartz says:

    I agree: Israel does go over the line. And I agree with M&W that America does need to look at its interests vis a vis Israel in a more objective light. But, on the other hand, when you consider that Israel has had to fight for its life for its entire existence–some times in all out wars; other times against terrorism–it is easy to see why Israel goes over the line, even if one can’t excuse it. The Palestinians’ refusal to accept (except with their fingers crossed) Israel’s right to exist is the fundamental problem. And it has been since the beginning. Had the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab accepted the two-state solution at the beginning, the Palestinian state now be 58 years old, at least as big as Israel, with its capital (probably) in Jerusalem. Even at this late date, it is news that Hammas and Fattah are negotiating and reaching an agreement to accept Israel right to exist. This is so basic, and has been chewed over so many times, we forget how important it is. Perhaps because 99% of the world’s population lives in countries whose basic existence isn’t called into question–morally, politically, or militarily. Rockets still–and suicide bombers until recently–attacked within the pre-1967 borders. This isn’t a question of the occupied territories, so-called, it’s a question of whether Israel gets to exist at all. When Israel dealt with a country that did accept its existence, it willingly gave back the Sinai. It unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. It certainly has plans to pull out of much of the West Bank. I’m certain they would give up even more if they were assured of a friendly, or even a non-hostile neighbor. But when one’s neighbor is led by a political party that has sworn to annihilate you, things do get a little touchy. Imagine a Canada or a Mexico had been pursuing that course for that past half century with us, and we were the size of, say, Delaware.

    Reply

  107. Pokehercuntus says:

    The Land is the Land of Israel given to them by God.
    The Palestinians are Indians who need to mind themselves on their reservations or they bees in heap big trouble.
    The only good Indian is a …. [edited by my shame]….

    Reply

  108. bp32 says:

    “Honestly, when you start buzzing the homes of other country’s presidents, you’re basically begging for war.”
    Or sending a message that using proxies such as Hamas may not be such a safe strategy anymore.
    And what is with this “final solution” rhetoric? Pissed off American you sound like some wild conspiracy theorist–‘Israel is pulling the strings in Iraq’, etc, etc. Give me a break–you need to get over the “Israeli Lobby” meme already.

    Reply

  109. John Wilson says:

    Re: Pissed off American.
    What he said.
    (I do like stark) 🙂

    Reply

  110. Jerome Gaskins says:

    Someone please tell me why it’s wrong for the Palestinians to kidnap a soldier, when Israel kidnaps and murders civilians?
    Governments in conflict often take prisoners of war, and no one can convince me that Israel is not at war against Palestine. They’ve been at war against Palestine since 1948.

    Reply

  111. Steambomb says:

    It sure is refreshing to see a washington insider take an objective view of Isreal in the manner that you have. So many times congressmen and senators refuse to speak of the Isreali flaws. Certainly over reaction has been a long and steady fault of the governing body in Israel.

    Reply

  112. Punchy says:

    It seems that Israel may have learned the “shoot first, reasses the situation later” meme from the U.S. itself. It surely took notes as we brazenly took over a country with fists rather than flowers, and probably correctly calculated we’d support this response, as foolish as it has become.
    Honestly, when you start buzzing the homes of other country’s presidents, you’re basically begging for war.

    Reply

  113. Pissed Off American says:

    Steve, as I have always maintained, Isreal seems hell-bent in its efforts to further destabilize the region, and force a “final solution” to the “muslim problem”. One undeniable facet of this whole thing is the FACT that Israel will NEVER allow a Shiite dominated THEOCRACY to rule in Iraq, even if it is masquerading as a “democracy” of American design. Isreal intends to escalate this thing, using OUR BLOOD and OUR TREASURE to finally force the issue in the middle east. The so called “insurgency” in Iraq may well be partially a construct of the Mossad, and personally I believe it is. Israel WANTS a permanent American military presence, and they DO NOT want Shiite dominance in Iraq. Obviously their designs for Iraq cannot see fruition if in fact the MAJORITY rules in Iraq in the manner of a true democracy. An Iraq in full civil war, with a strong american military presence is incapable of forming a structured theocracy, or of posing a military threat to Isreal.
    We can draw the same conclusions about a Hamas ruled Palestine. Israel will NEVER allow a truly democratic Palestine, because the FACTS ON THE GROUND are that Israel has murdered, enslaved, minimized, starved, caged, and abused the Palestinians for so long that entities such as Hamas are seen by the Palestinians as champions and saviours.
    And here we see Israel kidnapping and caging duly elected officials of the Palestinian government. And this mewling fraud of a President, this fucking swaggering buffoon, Bush, will surely give Israel a free pass, blater on about Isreal’s “right to defend itself”, and continue to ship them the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of dollars we send Isreal every WEEK.
    The Israelis are acting predictably, and as I have said many times here in the past, you ain’t seen NUTHIN’ yet. By the time Bush and his Israeli masters are through, the death toll is going to be in THE MILLIONS, if not the BILLIONS,.

    Reply

  114. bp32 says:

    Can we really compare the United States during the Cold War and Israel today? It would seem that the Israeli’s neighborhood is a bit different and certainly more dangerous than ours at any time in the last 150 years. Of curse this isn’t just about one soldier, but rather has multiple causes not the least of which is the fact that a terrorist organization that is based on the idea that Israel needs to be destroyed is at the helm right next door. If the United States every faced such a situation I think our restraint would also be tested…

    Reply

  115. Steve Clemons says:

    Thanks for the note Matthew. One thing about the RAND rail arc project, which I support strongly — Zbigniew Brzezinski told me a few months ago that he had agreed to serve as Chairman of that project. Just fyi,
    Steve Clemons

    Reply

  116. Matthew says:

    Thanks for the brave post, Steve. The Houston World Affairs Council is hosting the Palestinian Ambassador Afif Sahieh tonight. I plan on asking him for constructive solutions. In particular, I would like to know how he feels about the RAND study on the rail “arc” that will develop the Palestinian areas and provide positive economic development and integration with Israel. As we have learned from the Europeans, economic ties beget more responsible politics.

    Reply

Add your comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *