Hot Topic: Israel’s Nukes and Iran’s Nukes

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The way that the nuclear weapons world works today is that if you are “trusted” by the US and Europe — you can overtly or covertly hold on to your nukes, particularly if a nation is not part of the non-proliferation regime.
But if you aren’t trusted, you can’t have them under any circumstances.
But Israel is a complicated case — and a provocative Al Jazeera show is going to delve into this and thought I’d share:

7 September 2009, Monday, 4:30 pm EST
RIZ KHAN – NUCLEAR ISRAEL

Watch live here
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) will meet Monday to discuss Iran’s nuclear capabilities just as Israel accused the monitoring body of holding back on its most recent report on Iran. Israel says it “expects the international community to take substantive and prompt steps to halt Iran’s military nuclear program.” But what about Israel’s nuclear arsenal?
It’s a well-known secret that Israel not only has nuclear capabilities but has nuclear weapons. Officially, Israel has a policy of not confirming or denying its nuclear capabilities. Whenever the U.S. raises its concerns about proliferation, Israel is not mentioned. Experts and anti-nuclear activists argue that the way in which the West deals with Israel’s programme sets a dangerous double-standard that makes it impossible to stem the tide of nuclear proliferation in the Middle East or anywhere else. Breaking with past precedent, a U.S. State Department official recently said that they would like Israel to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty but a White House official went on to note that the Israeli and Iranian programmes were unrelated “apples and oranges”.
On Monday’s “Riz Khan” we discuss Israel’s nuclear programme and ask “When will Israel bring its nuclear weapons out of the shadows and could an open and honest discussion of its capabilities pave the way for a nuclear-free Middle East?” Joining our discussion will be Dr. Avner Cohen author of “Israel and the Bomb” and Israeli journalist and human rights activist Gideon Spiro.

Definitely a ‘hot’ topic.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

208 comments on “Hot Topic: Israel’s Nukes and Iran’s Nukes

  1. Ned says:

    Carrol comment is out of content the Nazi commited in an era where it was only found out after the fact. The Isreali IDF is so humane it choose to murders an armed civilians on live TV.See carrol there is a difference. The Isreali ruthlesness has made the civilized world wonder how long will the so called international committee tolerate these crime wars.The iranian decesion to encounter the Isrealis crime of wars and safe gaza children is evil because the jews have the right to excercise their hobby of murdering children. Those who are hurt by Carrol comment should look at their children and imagine if they were torn into pieces by the ISrealis , drprived from water, medicin and food . The state of isreal have gone beyond what man kind can bear a sign of self destructing strategy starting to materlize . The panic among the zionist indicate their final acknowledgement a state that is built on blood will vanish in blood a scary feeling for god chosen people which make the rest of us christians moslems and others no god chosen people second class creature , you zionists are funny ….

    Reply

  2. Ned says:

    Carrol comment is out of content the Nazi commited in an era where it was only found out after the fact. The Isreali IDF is so humane it choose to murders an armed civilians on live TV.See carrol there is a difference. The Isreali ruthlesness has made the civilized world wonder how long will the so called international committee tolerate these crime wars.The iranian decesion to encounter the Isrealis crime of wars and safe gaza children is evil because the jews have the right to excercise their hobby of murdering children. Those who are hurt by Carrol comment should look at their children and imagine if they were torn into pieces by the ISrealis , drprived from water, medicin and food . The state of isreal have gone beyond what man kind can bear a sign of self destructing strategy starting to materlize . The panic among the zionist indicate their final acknowledgement a state that is built on blood will vanish in blood a scary feeling for god chosen people which make the rest of us christians moslems and others no god chosen people second class creature , you zionists are funny ….

    Reply

  3. learn english online says:

    The entire world knows that Israel won’t cooperate, especially as that is one area of politics that the U.S won’t push Israel on. Combined with Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and Syria’s unexplained nuclear facilities the IAEA becomes less credible every day which increasingly adds to the danger of a nuclear world.

    Reply

  4. ... says:

    questions – poa helped you out again!

    Reply

  5. questions says:

    See, I didn’t go to Samarra!! I went to the Sahara!! I have avoided my fate…. For now, that is.

    Reply

  6. Outraged American says:

    Carroll: I’ll see your one and raise you two. One of my cats,
    Dua,is the dumbest cat that ever lived. I say that with
    confidence because my family took in stray cats and at one
    point had seven.
    Put a bowl of food in front of Dua and he’ll stare at it like he’s
    never seen food before. Or like he doesn’t trust me and needs a
    poison taster. He refuses to come out of the garage so now
    lives in perpetual darkness.
    In terms of nuns: I did a few months of volunteer work in
    Calcutta (my home town) the first time I went back to India. You
    can guess where.
    Anyway, we used to call the Head Nun, Sister Luke, Atilla the
    Nun. Her favorite phrase was, “This is not a hospital, it’s a home
    for the dying.” At which point we would have to take the not-
    quite-dead body and dump it out in the street. Most probably
    to be eaten by starving orphans and their pet rats.
    Wait, I’ll raise you another nun. My Mad Ant is a former Loreto
    nun and as such took a vow of poverty. While she was still a nun
    (she got kicked out of the order for never showing up) she
    became a real estate speculator in Sydney, and now owns “units”
    overlooking Sydney Harbor, as well as a Jaguar.
    This is the best story about her, well, there are so many. When I
    was living with her in Australia she got into a car accident where
    she was at fault. So she rammed her car into a Sydney bus and
    then demanded that the city of Sydney pay for all the damage.
    Ah Catholicism — you can leave the hypocritical mind-f*ck that
    is the church, but it never leaves you…

    Reply

  7. Carroll says:

    Posted by Outraged American, Sep 10 2009, 4:15PM
    BTW Carroll, we have a West Highland White/ Norfolk TERRIER
    mix — one of those little, white, fluffy, cute-looking dogs, but
    she is a weapon of mass destruction. Like seriously, we could
    have just sent her into Iraq and she would have had Saddam by
    the balls before you could say… whatever you said about Israel
    being a midget, Nazi country.>>>>>>>>>
    Great! We can team him up with Sugar Toes, my cat from hell. She’s an excellent sniper, hides on top of shelves and stairs and then jumps down on your head. She’s an excellent guard cat too, every time the door bell rings she runs to the door plants herself there and screams and hisses at the guest. Actually she is the reincarnation of Mother Hache, my dorm nun in high school who use to pray for me to have patience. Every year for 30 years I got a Christmas card from her saying she was still praying for me
    to cultivate some patience. Evidently the praying didn’t work so when she died 13 years ago she came to live with me as a cat to carry on her reform Carroll project. It must be working somewhat, I haven’t killed the cat yet…despite the fact that she constantly swats me in the face to get my attention and has destroyed everything she can claw her way into….always my things, never touchs anyone else’s.

    Reply

  8. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I hereby invite Questions to write comment number 197”
    Why would he? The posted account of AIPAC actually writing the correspondence leaving our “Representative'”s offices, and the all expense paid junkets to Israel by the very Congresspeople seeking to undermine Obama’s stance on the settlements, requires no response.
    After all, we all know AIPAC is irrelevent, impotent, and ineffective don’t we? Hasn’t he told us so, ad nauseum now, for a year or two? If we aren’t convinced by now, whats another vague and academically pretentious two thousand word essay going to do?

    Reply

  9. Paul Norheim says:

    I hereby invite Questions to write comment number 197. If he doesn`t use this
    opportunity to argue against something POA have said above in this thread, I also
    hereby declare him the winner in the fierce battle between him and Destiny.
    Even I have to admit that my prophetic gifts are astonishing in their accuracy.
    Thus Spake Zarathustra.
    Now, I`m sure a dozen of additional comments by people like Mr.Murder and others will
    show up as this tread slowly fades away, vanishing gracefully into the archives. But
    if you at he end of the day subtract the “off topic chit chat comments”, that I “in
    an effort to reach the desired number”, according to POA, have been seeding this
    thread with, I feel confident that we`ll still reach the predicted number.
    197 is for you Questions.

    Reply

  10. Outraged American says:

    If Israel doesn’t shut-up I’m going to call-up Iran and tell them that
    the Knesset has decided to nuke Tehran in five minutes.
    Let’s just get this all over with — the suspense is killing me. Will
    Israel nuke Iran, or will she not?
    Better than “Who shot JR”
    And on that note I’m taking my dog for a walk, past McCain’s old
    house. If McCain’s abandoned poodle shows up I’m going to clip
    him first and then sell his fur and organs. To Israeli settlers.
    McCain wouldn’t mind — he’s already sold his soul.

    Reply

  11. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    Speaking of Iran’s “nukes”, Reuters is reporting that Iran wants to develope a system to end global nukes..do tellllll. http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN10411457

    Reply

  12. Kathleen Grasso Adersen says:

    OutragedAmerican/Carroll…you gals are nailing it…so right on, it’s making me smile….OA I was just thinking about Iran-Contra and the role Israel played in the arms scam part of it…
    Carroll..on the subject of TWN readers not being sheeple who swallow whole the disinformation that passes for news these day, I was just thinking that the Press/MSM which used to be the 4th Branch of Gov’t, has morphed into the Judas Goat of the Republic, with its pre-chewed, microwave mentality regurgitated Talking Points….
    Arthrurrrrr,,,teeeeheee

    Reply

  13. arthurdecco says:

    kotzabasis, Until I read you, I had no idea that a person could be educated well beyond their intellectual capabilities.
    H.L. Mencken once wrote:
    “The demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.”
    He also wrote:
    “The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.”
    He could have had your picture stapled to the wall above his typewriter when he snapped the keys smartly on that morsel, doanchathink?

    Reply

  14. Outraged American says:

    Yeah-far from being a Bolshevik (and who was behind all that
    anyway?) I’m a registered Republican. Mostly so that I can call
    up the nimnuts who “represent” me now, Kyl, McCain and
    Shadegg, and start off my complaints about Israel, Iraq,
    Afghanistan, Pakistan — or rather this new country called “Af-
    Pak” — single-payer health care, with the words, “I am a
    registered Republican and…”
    Not that they listen. Kyl’s office is the worst and that’s a tough
    race. Mention Israel and you get a dial tone. Of course the
    slimeball is joined at the Terrorism Industrial Complex with
    Jokin’ Joe Lieberman. “Committee on the Present Danger” my
    flat ass.
    Want a good laugh? Check out its website — according
    KyLieberman the terriers (TM Carroll) are everywhere!:
    http://www.committeeonthepresentdanger.org/
    BTW Carroll, we have a West Highland White/ Norfolk TERRIER
    mix — one of those little, white, fluffy, cute-looking dogs, but
    she is a weapon of mass destruction. Like seriously, we could
    have just sent her into Iraq and she would have had Saddam by
    the balls before you could say… whatever you said about Israel
    being a midget, Nazi country.
    Bibi should live in fear of my terrier. Forget Obama “regretting”
    the settlements, my terrier would have Bibi backed into a corner
    promising a one state solution and the right of return to every
    Palestinian, even ones that are only pretending to be because
    they love the view from Gaza.

    Reply

  15. Carroll says:

    Posted by kotzabasis, Sep 09 2009, 9:50PM – Link
    Nadine
    Nothing new about the New Left as they continue to wear the dunce caps of the old left on their “skulls that they will never smile again,” intellectually, to quote Leszek Kolakowski, the Polish philosopher.>>>>>>>
    How stupid.
    You obviously don’t really read the comments.
    Commenters here are more informed and educated than the average and therefore aren’t followers of either the ‘liberal’ or ‘conserative’ herd…their opinions are based on their own research and observations. Some might occasionaly agree with the liberals on one issue or the conseratives on one issue…but there aren’t any die hard party sheep.
    I would characterize 99% of posters here as ‘critical thinkers’… they look beyond the spin and disinfo fluff to get to the heart of the matter …perhaps that’s what you can’t handle, particulary when it comes to the Israeli problem.

    Reply

  16. ... says:

    and of course the other popular label that always gets dragged out = leftist/new left by the same lame folks… predictable and sad…

    Reply

  17. ... says:

    nadine and kotz offer up typical knee jerk anti-leftist crap… what else is new??? it is so much easier to label others (anti semites wearing dunce caps as a generalized example) rather then reflect on the hypocrisy of there own position… for that it would take courage which neither of them have shown.. lying and smearing is all they’ve got…
    questions thanks for your comments… this conversation on international law was on a different thread but i think indicative of wigwags general attitude towards international law… his logic on this as i read it is much the same as gwbushs… if we can use the un to serve our purposes, we will do so, but if they get in the way, we will choose to negate them to the american public in such a way that negates its role in helping to resolve international conflict as exampled in bushs rush to the war in iraq.. of course these same individuals in favour or war – wigwag, nadine and kotz all have the same ideology as gwbush in this respect… why acknowledge some other viewpoint, when you are so righteous as to think you view is the only rational intelligent one… from my view, nadine, wigwag and kotz are full of shit for all intensive purposes, but then you probably already knew that!

    Reply

  18. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “kostabasis, all this thread shows is that on Washington Note threads, open, vicious anti-Semitism………”
    Go screw yourself, you ignorant racist buffoon.

    Reply

  19. Outraged American says:

    We won’t smile again if we’re dead. Although skeletons kind of
    grin.
    What don’t you get that the world is fed-up with Israel and her
    incredibly dangerous narcissism? If it was just Israel primping in
    the mirror and telling herself how awesome she was it would be
    different, but instead Israel is on the verge of LYING THE ENTIRE
    WORLD INTO WAR.
    And I’ll paraphrase Karen Kwiatowski, who might have a
    smidgen of Polish blood. She was working for Bill Luti in
    Douglas Feith’s “Office of Special Plans” and said that Israelis
    were in and out of there.
    I’m too lazy to quote Schlmo Brom, retired IDF Brig. General,
    who did a study for Tel Aviv University, Jaffee Center, and can’t
    be bothered to look it up. The study, an ISRAELI STUDY,
    revealed that ISRAEL FED THE US FALSE INTELLIGENCE in the
    run-up to the second time we were lied into invading Iraq.
    Suck it. You want real “anti-Semitism” i.e., the Jews being hated
    for just being Jews, then the Zionists are doing a damn good
    job. And I resent it as the wife and aunt of Memebers of the
    Tribe.

    Reply

  20. kotzabasis says:

    Nadine
    Nothing new about the New Left as they continue to wear the dunce caps of the old left on their “skulls that they will never smile again,” intellectually, to quote Leszek Kolakowski, the Polish philosopher.

    Reply

  21. questions says:

    I’m not sure you have WigWag’s position quite right, but I might be wrong on this.
    Law is effective when there is a broad agreement as to its legitimacy, when there’s an overarching power to enforce it, when the sanctions are such that the law’s command is preferred to suffering the sanction, when the respect for the law is so deep that no one would think to disobey. None of these really obtains in international law. There may be situational respect, and situational sanctions, but in general, the agreements are on the weaker side as there really isn’t compelling overarching authority.
    There are numerous arguments for and against strong international law. The strongest for is that we need to cooperate internationally just as we do nationally or we’re sunk in a horrific game theory scenario. The strongest against is that law works better when it’s local and more particularized than international law can manage. And of course, who’s going to punish whom?
    I don’t think WigWag’s position is as off the deep end as you make it seem. In my reading at least.

    Reply

  22. Outraged American says:

    The nukes are not in the hands of Ahmedinejad, but in the
    hands of the mulllahs, who have proven themselves over the
    years to not be suicidal, but rather crafty old buzzards who have
    worked with Israel. Iran-Contra ring a bell?
    In 2003, Iran offered UsRael a really good deal, one that “we”
    spurned.
    In 2002, the Arab League offered Israel a good deal and Israel’s
    response was to attack and lay siege to the Church of the
    Nativity in Bethlehem, pissing off just about every Christian sect.
    Except for those dingbat Christian Zionist who believe that every
    Jew has to return to Israel, and then either convert or be killed,
    in order for the Messiah, who they obviously have never
    bothered to study, to come again.
    From the Washington Post:
    In 2003, U.S. Spurned Iran’s Offer of Dialogue
    Some Officials Lament Lost Opportunity
    By Glenn Kessler
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Sunday, June 18, 2006
    Just after the lightning takeover of Baghdad by U.S. forces three
    years ago, an unusual two-page document spewed out of a fax
    machine at the Near East bureau of the State Department. It was
    a proposal from Iran for a broad dialogue with the United States,
    and the fax suggested everything was on the table — including
    full cooperation on nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and
    the termnation of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.
    http://tinyurl.com/rt9lb

    Reply

  23. nadine says:

    kostabasis, all this thread shows is that on Washington Note threads, open, vicious anti-Semitism is greeted with smiles and affability, but any attempt to point out the rather obvious danger of nukes in the hands of Iranian President Ahmedinejad and his new terrorist Defense Minister Vahidi are greeted with a chorus of “lies! lies!” and a ton of invective.
    Welcome to the new Left and the decline of the West.

    Reply

  24. hootie1776 says:

    Wow. What a shocker!!

    Reply

  25. ... says:

    questions, i don’t see this about partisanship, but about hypocrisy… is anyone willing to admit to the same hypocrisy they support? that to me is the relevant ”question”..
    in previous discussions wigwag has been happy to admit he supports a system of ‘power’ as opposed to international law… i suppose the power he likes to support is one that could also alter the laws to suit this same ‘power’.. he has said that he thinks that is the way it always is in the world and that we are being naive to think such a thing as international law would be relevant in any way, other then perhaps to suit these same ‘powers’ he readily supports…

    Reply

  26. questions says:

    …,
    Actually I think the opposite might be the case. WigWag seems quite willing to admit partisanship and wonders why others do not simply admit that they, too, are partisan. That seems to me the point behind noting the dearth of criticism of all nasty regimes and the plethora of criticism of Israel around here. I don’t think it’s the strongest point one could make as the flaws of one don’t really justify the flaws of another; but it’s also not the weakest point as, indeed, the hits on Israel when there are ever so many dirty players in the world and wannabe dirty players is noticeable around here.
    And now, Paul, have I met the hooded stranger in Samarra, or am I safe?

    Reply

  27. Outraged American says:

    Israel has admitted her nukes. Olmert tripped up and confirmed
    them in a 2006 interview with of all things a GERMAN TV
    station.
    From the New York Times:
    In A Slip, Israel’s Leader Seems To Confirm Its Nuclear Arsenal
    http://tinyurl.com/kn66uz (via a different site)
    Mr. Olmert then added: “Iran openly, explicitly and publicly
    threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the
    same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons as
    America, France, Israel, Russia?”
    From the Guardian UK
    Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe
    · PM admits on TV that Israel has atomic weapons
    · Blow to longstanding policy of ambiguity
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/13/israel
    Paul, since Israel’s pissed, expect an attack on Norway by
    “Radical Islamic Terrorists” in five, four, three…

    Reply

  28. ... says:

    paul norheim quote “The subject of Steve Clemons` post – with reference to a TV program by Al Jazeera
    – is the double standard, or hypocrisy, if you will, of the Western world: Who
    are allowed, and who are not allowed to possess nuclear weapons, according to the
    democratic “Western civilization”, and why?
    And those who defend Israel`s right to possess nuclear weapons – where are they?
    What did they provide as a defense for that right?
    Now, Wigwag pretends that this is a “boring” topic. Really?”
    paul, i think your first paragraph is exactly right… people like wigwag would prefer to downplay this and suggest there are no double standards or nothing hypocritical in their ideological position, when it fact it is just what their ideology is built on.. when faced with this, what is a person with an ideology built on hypocrisy left to do but downplay this central fact?
    outrageous americans 143pm is another aspect of the brainwashing that goes on unabated in the usa and beyond..it is with this in mind that people like wigwag feel they have nothing to fear over any challenge to their continued hypocrisy on this topic..as long as they have similar minded hypocrites in areas of media, they can continue on it their bullshit 24/7 unchallenged..
    keep on pointing out the truth.. it freaks these same folks out..

    Reply

  29. Outraged American says:

    Questions, you used “congressional” and “scholars” in the same
    sentence, what are you, nuts?
    BTW: that documentary about the deliberate demonization of
    Muslims by Hollywood is called Reel Bad Arabs. Very informative
    with big and respected names behind it, including some in
    ACADEMIA.
    Watch it online.
    http://tinyurl.com/ohfyut

    Reply

  30. questions says:

    Paul, I don’t get nervous from “contemplating.” But I do wonder about wholesale realignments of nuclear-armed world powers. Hmm. Wonder why. Probably no reason at all. Certainly, nothing could get any worse in the world than it is now, and since we’re at rock bottom, maxed out on human suffering, there’s nowhere to go but up.
    And I guess you’re actually right. No one should read anything because no one in history has ever had an insight that could possible pertain to this unique historical moment. Certainly not anything I read. But antiwar.com and the AIPAC website, now those are places! And Counterpunch.org when it’s posting stuff POA likes is okay too.
    And no scholar who studies a subject knows more than you and POA, so why read congressional scholars? Seriously. Big waste o’ time. Bunch of f’ing academics who don’t know….
    So, you know what, let’s just DO YOUR THING –whatever YOUR THING is.

    Reply

  31. WigWag says:

    “Now, Wigwag pretends that this is a “boring” topic. Really?” (Paul Norheim)
    Yes, really, Paul. And there is no need for me to “pretend.”
    Debating whether Israel will give up its nuclear weapons is like debating whether the United States, China, Russia, Great Britain, France, Pakistan or India will give up their nuclear weapons. They won’t; Israel won’t.
    And on the subject of Iran’s putative nuclear weapons program I’ve commented extensively in the past.
    Steve Clemon’s is deluded if he thinks this topic is “hot.” It’s about as hot as a winter’s day in Norway.
    I have glanced at several of the comments on this thread but mostly find them to be the “same old, same old.”
    About the most charitable thing I can say about this post by Steve Clemons (and the comments that follow) is that it is a tremendously effective soporific.
    But thanks for thinking of me.

    Reply

  32. Outraged American says:

    Israel has admitted her nukes. Olmert tripped up and confirmed
    them in a 2006 interview with of all things a GERMAN TV
    station.
    From the New York Times:
    In A Slip, Israel’s Leader Seems To Confirm Its Nuclear Arsenal
    http://tinyurl.com/kn66uz (via a different site)
    Mr. Olmert then added: “Iran openly, explicitly and publicly
    threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the
    same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons as
    America, France, Israel, Russia?”
    From the Guardian UK
    Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe
    · PM admits on TV that Israel has atomic weapons
    · Blow to longstanding policy of ambiguity
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/13/israel
    H/T to The Wisdom Fund, a great site although not very well
    organized, you have to kind of dig. http://www.twf.org/
    Expect an attack on Norway by “Radical Islamic Terrorists” in
    five, four, three…
    And about the border fence. We need to fix our economic policy
    towards Mexico or there will always be people risking their lives
    to get here, and making ours miserable. Formerly slow, dusty ol’
    Phoenix is now one of the kidnapping capitols of the world, and
    yet they won’t do me a favor and kidnap my husband. They can
    behead him too and steal his organs.
    I have a whole slew of articles that I’ve collected about the
    economic costs of illegal immigration, especially in the border
    states. We need a viable guest worker program because
    someone has got to pick that lettuce and A-mur-cans (TM
    Dumbya) are too fat to even bend over and see where it is.
    Then there’s that F-ing “War on Drugs” — Mexico saw the light
    and just legalized possession of small quantities.
    http://tinyurl.com/r9bah
    As someone who has been directly affect by the drug use of a
    loved one, I hate drugs, but this “War on Drugs” cannot be won
    and only feeds more into the prison/ industrial complex.
    Non-violent drug offenders (some) should be let out, and the
    money used to incarcerate them could go into treatment and
    increased law enforcement.
    License the dealers and you can tax and regulate them. Of
    course, that additional money would probably be used on the
    other nebulous “War on Terror” so let the states handle it and
    get the revenues.

    Reply

  33. Paul Norheim says:

    Sorry, that was a typo. Correction:
    “Ok, unless someone is submitting a comment while
    I`m writing, this is comment No. 172.”
    So, then we`re at 173… And yeah, I know you`ll
    suspect me of trying to inflate the number of
    comments. Please relax: Add this one – as well as
    the chit chat music comments above – as bonus
    comments, in addition to the 197.
    In the role of a prophet, I never cheat. Pure as a
    white poodle.

    Reply

  34. Paul Norheim says:

    Ok, unless someone is submitting a comment before mine here, this is comment No.
    172.
    The subject of Steve Clemons` post – with reference to a TV program by Al Jazeera
    – is the double standard, or hypocrisy, if you will, of the Western world: Who
    are allowed, and who are not allowed to possess nuclear weapons, according to the
    democratic “Western civilization”, and why?
    And those who defend Israel`s right to possess nuclear weapons – where are they?
    What did they provide as a defense for that right?
    Now, Wigwag pretends that this is a “boring” topic. Really?
    The other defenders of Israel seem to regard it as perhaps a bit less boring, and
    are mostly busy talking about other, seemingly related issues – like Nadine about
    France, UK and Iran. Or like Kotzabasis, busy commenting the commentators.
    And I assume that Questions would be very nervous contemplating any disturbance
    of the oh so horrible, but oh so fragile Status Quo in international relations,
    and thus is accordingly silent. Read up on this, read up on that, spend years
    reading up while eating vegetables, and things will at least not be worse than
    they were before you started reading up.
    Actually, I`ve only noticed ONE serious argument so far from the pro-Israeli
    camp, among 172, that may be considered relevant to the issue. That argument was
    provided early on by Nadine, before she unfortunately started her lying/denying
    project.
    Her comment:
    “If Israel’s Arab enemies really thought that Israel was “batshit crazy” they
    would have moved heaven and earth to get nukes of their own. Yet somehow Egypt,
    Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have survived and even made war on Israel while knowing
    that Israel had nukes! How come? Were they completely suicidal? Or did they
    understand that Israel’s nukes were not going to be used except as last-ditch
    self-defense?
    But now that Iran is going to get nukes, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are scrambling to
    get theirs. Mubarak kept trying to get Obama to pay attention to Iran’s nukes.
    Their behavior shows that nukes in Iran’s hands are a lot more serious in their
    eyes, at any rate.”
    ——————————————
    That`s fine, Nadine. Thanks. But that`s basically what we`ve got from the
    defenders of Israel.
    After 172 comments.

    Reply

  35. Paul Norheim says:

    Allow me to be a bit more explicit here – and this one is for you, Wigwag:
    As we all remember, you`ve been accusing your opponents at TWN of hypocrisy, since
    none of us has a habit of providing a list of all the other countries on the planet
    violating human rights, when we comment on a particular country on threads devoted to
    that country.
    The latest example: the Dubai thread some days ago.
    Especially, you seem to think that we should condemn China, also on threads not
    related to China whatsoever. I assume that Myanmar is also high up on your list of
    countries seriously violating human rights? So let`s repeat this quote from TPM Cafe
    – already quoted above – clearly suggesting that Israel not only itself violates
    human rights, but also happily assists other countries well known for human rights
    abuses:
    “According to a March 1, 2000 report in Jane’s Intelligence Review by William Ashton,
    titled “Myanmar and Israel develop military pact,” Israeli companies and the Israeli
    government had been supplying and developing weapons for the Burmese regime. In 1997
    Elbit won the contract to upgrade Myanmar’s (then) three squadrons of Chinese-built
    F-7 fighters and FT-7 trainers. Six years ago, Elbit established an office in
    Shanghai, China, whose human rights record is less than stellar. No doubt there are
    numerous other cases of Elbit’s technology being used by regimes and for purposes
    that contravene human rights.”
    ———————————————–
    Now, what was that word again, Wigwag? Hicrapocy? Hippopotacrocy? Hipocrap?
    Pocripocisity? Sycrophantopocrapicy?
    Sorry, Wigwag. I`ve forgotten how to spell it. Perhaps you could help me?

    Reply

  36. paul Norheim says:

    Thanks for the link, Carroll,
    — which you didn`t provide directly, however – so here it is:
    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/profco/2009/09/israel-summons-
    norway-envoy-ov.php
    Elbit is obviously an active and expanding company on many levels. Certainly
    intriguing stuff:
    “Elbit, by the way, has already been awarded the contract to build the
    surveillance system for the proposed wall between the US and Mexico, pending
    approval of the wall’s actual construction by Congress. (Yes, THAT Congress–
    the penny-pinching one that’s so worried that health care reform will be cost
    too much.) A substantial portion of the U.S.-Mexican, were it ever to be built,
    would no doubt be constructed in McCain’s home state.
    What’s rather ironic that the Norweigian divestment from Elbit is based upon
    its providing surveillance sytems for the Wall. Elbit’s UAVs were used
    extensively by Israel in the “second Lebanon war,” and were considered to have
    performed so successfully that the British govt. ordered 110 of them. Elbit’s
    UAV’s have also been used by Israeli forces in Gaza. Sixty percent of Elbit’s
    sales are to foreign countries and governments, . Elbit has provided upgrades
    to Myanmar’s (a/k/a Burma’s) air force fleet.
    According to a March 1, 2000 report in Jane’s Intelligence Review by William
    Ashton, titled “Myanmar and Israel develop military pact,” Israeli companies
    and the Israeli government had been supplying and developing weapons for the
    Burmese regime. In 1997 Elbit won the contract to upgrade Myanmar’s (then)
    three squadrons of Chinese-built F-7 fighters and FT-7 trainers. Six years ago,
    Elbit established an office in Shanghai, China, whose human rights record is
    less than stellar. No doubt there are numerous other cases of Elbit’s
    technology being used by regimes and for purposes that contravene human
    rights.”
    ————————————————————–
    One would hope that the Mexican wall connection, as well as the connection to
    Myanmar, China and the implicit human rights issues could tempt Wigwag to put
    his weight in here, so that this thread will reach 297, instead of only 197
    comments…
    I`ve read about this issue in Norwegian newspapers, but was not aware of the
    TMP Cafe comment. First our celebration of Hamsun, and now this…
    It was actually our Finance Minister, Kristin Halvorsen, a member of the
    Socialist Party (which currently governs in a coalition with the Labor party),
    who announced this divestment last week. Her party, as well as she herself,
    also support a boycott of Israeli products (an issue not directly related to
    this, since the actual divestment is a result of an evaluation made by an
    ethical council for the petrol fund), just like they supported a boycott of
    South African products during apartheid – which was implemented in the 1980`s.
    Personally, I regard boycotts as problematic, as they also hurt innocent
    civilians – frequently more than their governments. And I am especially opposed
    to boycotts in academic and cultural areas.
    OK, I`ve never personally been accused of anti-semitism (and have on rare
    occasions accused others of this tendency), but it`s strange to see my own
    government being accused of it:
    “It’s been just over a week since Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman
    accused the Norwegian government of anti-Semitism for honoring Knut
    Hamsun,Norway’s greatest author, because of Hamsun’s pro-Nazi sympathies during
    WWII. Lieberman also took a swipe at the Norwegians for participating in
    Durban II. “I remember that in the Durban-II conference,” Lieberman said,
    referring to last April’s UN anti-racism summit which was criticized as
    allegedly biased against Israel. “The Norwegian representatives were among the
    few who didn’t walk out, and today I realize it’s not a coincidence. How low
    can you go?”
    As I (‘Profco”) waste my time noting in the comments below the Haaretz article,
    the Nobel-prize winning Yiddish author Isaac Bashevis Singer considered Knut
    Hamsun (also a Nobel Laureate) to be the the father of modern literature. “The
    whole school of fiction in the 20th century stems from Hamsun,” Singer wrote in
    1967, citing Hamsun’s “subjectiveness, his fragmentariness, his use of
    flashbacks, his lyricism.” Singer also wrote the Introduction to Hamsun’s novel
    Hunger.”
    ———————————————–
    So did Paul Auster to Robert Bly`s English translation. And yesterday I (Paul
    Norheim) read in a Norwegian newspaper that the novelist Siri Hustvedt, half
    Norwegian (from Bergen, where I live now), half American, wants to make a new
    translation together with her husband, Paul Auster.
    BUT NOW, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: LET`S GET BACK TO THE TOPIC!
    Actually, Norway may very well be an anti-semitic country according to Avigdor
    Lieberman`s perverse definitions of that word. I can certainly live with that,
    even quite comfortably. However, in the longer historical context, Israel has
    no reason to be so hostile towards Norway.
    As a matter of fact, Norway helped Israel getting these infamous nuclear
    weapons in the late fifties and early sixties. Here is a little excerpt from
    Wikipedia (“Nuclear weapons and Israel), and I`m including paragraphs related
    to the involvement of the not-torturing France (Nadine) and not-invading
    England (Nadine) here – all of this to suggest that if Iran attacks Norway
    (yes, you guessed it: Nadine again!), then it`s the damned duty of Israel to
    protect us
    WIKIPEDIA:
    “When Charles de Gaulle became French President in late 1958 he wanted to end
    French-Israeli nuclear cooperation, and said that he would not supply Israel
    with uranium unless the plant was opened to international inspectors, declared
    peaceful, and no plutonium was reprocessed.[22] Through an extended series of
    negotiations, Shimon Peres finally reached a compromise with Foreign Minister
    Maurice Couve de Murville over two years later, in which French companies would
    be able to continue to fulfill their contract obligations and Israel would
    declare the project peaceful.[23] Because of this, French assistance did not
    end until 1966.
    Top secret British documents obtained by BBC Newsnight show that Britain made
    hundreds of secret shipments of restricted materials to Israel in the 1950s and
    1960s. These included specialist chemicals for reprocessing and samples of
    fissile material—uranium-235 in 1959, and plutonium in 1966, as well as highly
    enriched lithium-6 which is used to boost fission bombs and fuel hydrogen
    bombs. The investigation also showed that Britain shipped 20 tons of heavy
    water directly to Israel in 1959 and 1960 to start up the Dimona reactor.[28]
    The transaction was made through a Norwegian front company called Noratom which
    took a 2% commission on the transaction. Britain was challenged about the heavy
    water deal at the International Atomic Energy Agency after it was exposed on
    Newsnight in 2005. British Foreign Minister Kim Howells claimed this was a sale
    to Norway. But a former British intelligence officer who investigated the deal
    at the time confirmed that this was really a sale to Israel and the Noratom
    contract was just a charade. The Foreign Office finally admitted in March 2006
    that Britain knew the destination was Israel all along. Israel admits running
    the Dimona reactor with Norway’s heavy water since 1963. French engineers who
    helped build Dimona say the Israelis were expert operators, so only a
    relatively small portion of the water were lost during the years past since the
    first operation of the reactor.”

    Reply

  37. Carroll says:

    Here you go Paul…
    More on Norway’s targeted divestment
    Posted by Helena Cobban
    September 3, 2009 3:15 PM EST | Link
    Filed in Israel-2009
    The compendiously smart and well-informed blogger Profco has a lot of great background about Israeli-Norwegian relations over at TPM Cafe today.
    S/he wrote it, of course, in light of Norway’s recent decision to divest itself of previous investments in the company Elbit, which produces electronics for Israel’s illegal Wall.
    Profco notes that Haaretz has put a new lead onto its story about this, noting the following:
    The director general of the Foreign Ministry, Yossi Gal, on Thursday summoned the Norwegian ambassador to Israel, Jakken Bjørn Lian, to protest Norway’s decision to pull all of its investments from the Israeli arms firm Elbit.
    Following the meeting, the Foreign Ministry relayed that, “Israel will consider further steps of protest in the future.”
    “Further steps of protest”! Like what? Does Israel, too, have a $400 billion sovereign wealth fund that it can deploy in defense of its national values around the world?
    Maybe the Israelis will unleash dirty tricks, or an invasion and occupation, or a suffocatingly tight siege against Norway?
    Um, maybe better not, since Norway is not only a pretty darned exemplary western democracy but also a member of NATO.”

    Reply

  38. Outraged American says:

    Wasn’t there a Star Trek episode where this happened?
    Arthur Decco and …, I’m glad that you realize now that my
    tongue has burrowed a hole in my cheek.
    I do know what’s going on — I spent years covering it. I just
    don’t think there is one thing we can do about it. I came to that
    conclusion after years of trying to effect change.
    Israel controls US foreign policy in the Middle East, that’s it.
    Israel will find a way to attack Iran, whether it be a false flag
    operation involving “Muslims” — actually that’s my guess. Israel
    pulls this type of shiitte all the time — Hariri of Lebanon’s
    assassination. The bombing of the US barrack in Beirut back
    during the Reagan “Catsup is a vegetable” years.
    I still try: I’m up for my own radio show. But there are just too
    many nefarious forces (read the US Congress, the military/
    terrorism/ industrial complexes, the mainstream media and the
    Israel Lobby) at work for us peons to stop anything.
    “Anne Coulter – Free!” keeps flashing at the top of the site.
    Maybe I’ll invite her to Feminazia only to strip search her at the
    border and force her to prove she’s female. Reaching for the
    brain bleach now…

    Reply

  39. PissedOffAmerican says:

    In modern history, or any history, do any of you EVER recall key members of the President’s own party, en masse, traveling to a foreign nation and willfully expressing dissent against their own president’s stated foreign policy goals and advocations?

    Reply

  40. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Construction of a New Settlement: Maskyiot
    Hagit Ofran 06/09/2009
    Despite of the recent talks about a settlement freeze, massive construction for some 20 permanent housing units and 5 caravans, in the settlement of Maskiyot, Jordan Valley has just recently begun.
    Effectively this means a new settlement is being established in the West Bank.
    Maskiyot is in the northern Jordan Valley, it originally served as an IDF outpost in the 80’s, and since 2002 lies relatively abandoned. When the IDF left the base a small group of religious students came to live there periodically.
    Following the evacuation of Gush Katif, in 2005, a group of evacuees from the outpost Shirat Hayam in the Gaza Strip moved to the area to re-establish the settlement Maskiyot.
    At the end of 2006 then Defence Minister Amir Peretz , approved the promotion of a plan to construct 100 housing units in Maskiyot, this met with international condemnation and the cancellation of the plan.
    In response a group of families from Shirat Hayam moved into the settlement with the aim of not giving up the original plan of establishing Maskiyot.
    In 2008 Defence Minister, Ehud Barak decided to renew the plan.
    Recently construction of some 20 housing units have begun.
    http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=66&docid=4388
    Meanwhile, the whole world watches as Netanyahu spits in Obama’s face, with no reaction or substantive response from the Obama Administration. High fives all around in the Israeli brothel known as “Congress”, having effectively derailed Obama’s half-hearted efforts to put an end to settlement expansion.
    Reid, Hoyer, Cantor, Huckabee, and scores of other Israel enablers have demonstrated irrefutably that Israeli influence in Washington DC surpasses that of the President of the United States. The Israeli lobbies are more powerful than our own President as it applies to American foreign policy in the middle east.
    And in the face of such developments, TWN’s blog contributors remain mute. In one of the most striking examples of Israeli power and arrogance over United States foreign policy to be seen in decades, Steve has nothing to say. Like Obama and Hillary, he is silent before the poised scythe of the Israeli machine. Israel not only dictates the policies, it also dictates the debate.

    Reply

  41. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Many of the silent readers of this long thread must have seen that the more serious commentators of TWN—although some of them continue to pen in a serious manner comical propositions….blablah…drool….blahblah…”
    Note how Kotz doesn’t specify the “comical propositions”. By failing to do so, he avoids the need to debate, yet falsely assumes he has adequately discredited “propositions” he is too intellectually cowardly to name.
    Any debate in support of the “official version” of the events of 9/11/2001 is doomed, by the supporter, to be reduced to accusations of “conspiracy theorist”, because the official version CANNOT be logically defended by the “conclusions” of the 9/11 commission. That is simple fact. There are far too many holes in the 9/11 Commission’s report, and as time numbs the shock of the event, more and more people are realizing that the fantastic and ridiculous fantasy we were fed just isn’t believable. And if in fact the “official version” is anywhere close to the actual truth, which it obviously is not, than the ineptitude and malfeasance displayed by the upper tiers of this government is simply unacceptable, and it defies reason that such incompetence escaped mass impeachments.

    Reply

  42. DonS says:

    M.J.Rosenberg, reading the tea leaves, sees an Israeli strike on Iran as early as this
    Fall, with the blessing of liberal Democrats. Of course, the nuke ‘issue’ is the excuse.
    tp://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/05/get_ready_big_push_for_liberals_to_support_iran_wa/
    Oh yeah, POA, as a US citizen, count me as not feeling represented, unless it’s in the Knesset..

    Reply

  43. samuelburke says:

    there are no conspiracies, no govt or group of individuals has ever in the history of the world conspired to do anything evil.
    meetings to do evil are illegal therefore conspiracies can not be real.
    the truth stands alone naked for the world to inspect it, lies and conspiracy theories are protected by a bodyguard of rules which impede them from being scrutinized for fear of being discovered.

    Reply

  44. questions says:

    My computer works fine, Paul. I can post!

    Reply

  45. Paul Norheim says:

    Personally, I would say that Questions so far is
    showing a less predictable performance than I
    thought he would. Apparently he`ve decided to put
    up a fierce fight with destiny.
    Perhaps he chose the same tactics as Odysseus?
    Asking his friends to tie him to the chair and
    leave him there, right in front of the PC screen,
    able to read the comments of POA and others, but
    unable to touch that red on/off button on the fog
    machine…
    36 more comments on this thread, and he`s a free
    man again.

    Reply

  46. arthurdecco says:

    Outraged American, you’re firing on all cylinders just now. (It’s good to grin, isn’t it?)
    Every one else appears to be performing as expected…especially Nadine.
    Kudos to Carroll: her distilled-to-essence comments are as true as true can be and a beacon of brutal reason.

    Reply

  47. ... says:

    kotzabasis, you’d be better remaining silent.. you have a lousy way making humour but on the other hand nothing you say can be taken seriously… you are essentially a walking ‘no mans land’…

    Reply

  48. Outraged American says:

    Hey Kotzi, I was out in the trenches. With my nanny. And a
    pacifier dipped in gin.
    George W. Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address was the biggest
    Conspiracy Theory that the world has ever heard. To paraphrase
    his Daddy, it was the “Mother” of all Conspiracy Theories.
    Sorry, I’d rather laugh than cry.
    Kotz, you go and sit under UsRael bombs. I’ll provide the umbrella
    and the diapers for when you sh*t from fright.

    Reply

  49. easy e says:

    My apologies if this has already been posted. If so, it deserves posting again:
    US HYPPOCRISY ASTONISHES THE WORLD
    By Paul Craig Roberts
    September 07, 2009 “Information Clearing House” — Americans have lost their ability for introspection, thereby revealing their astounding hypocrisy to the world.
    US War Secretary Robert Gates has condemned the Associated Press and a reporter, Julie Jacobson, embedded with US troops in Afghanistan, for taking and releasing a photo of a US Marine who was wounded in action and died from his injury.
    The photographer was on patrol with the Marines when they came under fire. She found the courage and presence of mind to do her job. Her reward is to be condemned by the warmonger Gates as “insensitive.” Gates says her employer, the Associated Press, lacks “judgment and common decency.”
    The American Legion jumped in and denounced the Associated Press for a “stunning lack of compassion and common decency.”
    To stem opposition to its wars, the War Department hides signs of American casualties from the public. Angry that evidence escaped the censor, the War Secretary and the American Legion attacked with politically correct jargon: “insensitive,” “offended,” and the “anguish,” “pain and suffering” inflicted upon the Marine’s family. The War Department sounds like it is preparing a harassment tort.
    Isn’t this passing the buck? The Marine lost his life not because of the Associated Press and a photographer, but because of the war criminals–Gates, Bush, Cheney, Obama, and the US Congress that supports wars of naked aggression that serve no American purpose, but which keeps campaign coffers filled with contributions from the armaments companies.
    Marine Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard is dead because the US government and a significant percentage of the US population believe that the US has the right to invade, bomb, and occupy other peoples who have raised no hand against us but are demonized with lies and propaganda.
    For the American War Secretary it is a photo that is insensitive, not America’s assertion of the right to determine the fate of Afghanistan with bombs and soldiers.
    The exceptional “virtuous nation” does not think it is insensitive for America’s bombs to blow innocent villagers to pieces. On September 4, the day before Gates’ outburst over the “insensitive” photo, Agence France Presse reported from Afghanistan that a US/Nato air strike had killed large numbers of villagers who had come to get fuel from two tankers that had been hijacked from negligent and inattentive occupation forces:
    “ ‘Nobody was in one piece. Hands, legs and body parts were scattered everywhere. Those who were away from the fuel tanker were badly burnt,’ said 32-year-old Mohammad Daud, depicting a scene from hell. The burned-out shells of the tankers, still smoking in marooned wrecks on the riverbank, were surrounded by the charred-meat remains of villagers from Chahar Dara district in Kunduz province, near the Tajik border. Dr. Farid Rahid, a spokesperson in Kabul for the ministry of health, said up to 250 villagers had been near the tankers when the air strike was called in.”
    What does the world think of the United States? The American War Secretary and a US military veterans association think a photo of an injured and dying American soldier is insensitive, but not the wipeout of an Afghan village that came to get needed fuel.
    The US government is like a criminal who accuses the police of his crime when he is arrested or a sociopathic abuser who blames the victim. It is a known fact that the CIA has violated US law and international law with its assassinations, kidnappings and torture. But it is not this criminal agency that will be held accountable. Instead, those who will be punished will be those moral beings who, appalled at the illegality and inhumanity of the CIA, leaked the evidence of the agency’s crimes. The CIA has asked the US Justice (sic) Department to investigate what the CIA alleges is the “criminal disclosure” of its secret program to murder suspected foreign terrorist leaders abroad. As we learned from Gitmo, those suspected by America are overwhelmingly innocent.
    The CIA program is so indefensible that when CIA director Leon Panetta found out about it six months after being in office, he cancelled the program (assuming those running the program obeyed) and informed Congress.
    Yet, the CIA wants the person who revealed its crime to be punished for revealing secret information. A secret agency this unmoored from moral and legal standards is a greater threat to our country than are terrorists. Who knows what false flag operation it will pull off in order to provide justification and support for its agenda. An agency that is more liability than benefit should be abolished.
    The agency’s program of assassinating terrorist leaders is itself fraught with contradictions and dangers. The hatred created by the US and Israel is independent of any leader. If one is killed, others take his place. The most likely outcome of the CIA assassination program is that the agency will be manipulated by rivals, just as the FBI was used by one mafia family to eliminate another. In order to establish credibility with groups that they are attempting to penetrate, CIA agents will be drawn into participating in violent acts against the US and its allies.
    Accusing the truth-teller instead of the evil-doer is the position that the neoconservatives took against the New York Times when after one year’s delay, which gave George W. Bush time to get reelected, the Times published the NSA leak that revealed that the Bush administration was committing felonies by violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The neocons, especially those associated with Commentary magazine, wanted the New York Times indicted for treason. To the evil neocon mind, anything that interferes with their diabolical agenda is treason.
    This is the way many Americans think. America uber alles! No one counts but us (and Israel). The deaths we inflict and the pain and suffering we bring to others are merely collateral damage on the bloody path to American hegemony.
    The attitude of the “freedom and democracy” US government is that anyone who complains of illegality or immorality or inhumanity is a traitor. The Republican Senator Christopher S. Bond is a recent example. Bond got on his high horse about “irreparable damage” to the CIA from the disclosures of its criminal activities. Bond wants those “back stabbers” who revealed the CIA’s wrongdoings to be held accountable. Bond is unable to grasp that it is the criminal activities, not their disclosure, that is the source of the problem. Obviously, the whistleblower protection act has no support from Senator Bond, who sees it as just another law to plough under.
    This is where the US government stands today: Ignoring and covering up government crimes is the patriotic thing to do. To reveal the government’s crimes is an act of treason. Many Americans on both sides of the aisle agree.
    Yet, they still think that they are The Virtuous Nation, the exceptional nation, the salt of the earth.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23439.htm

    Reply

  50. kotzabasis says:

    Many of the silent readers of this long thread must have seen that the more serious commentators of TWN—although some of them continue to pen in a serious manner comical propositions—have abandoned this thread and handed it out to the conspiracy peddlers and to all those who might have escaped from the tender grip of their nannies but who have never escaped their cradles that rock with fairytales.

    Reply

  51. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Oh my. Just sign it, there ain’t no reason to read it, is there?
    Yep, Dan, he’s a real winner.
    http://www.andrewhemingway.com/2009/08/04/hodes-reading-bills-would-slow-down-progress/
    Hodes – “reading bills would slow down progress”
    Yet another Democrat: Who has time to read these bills?
    posted at 12:46 pm on August 4, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
    After Rep. John Conyers attempted to laugh at those who insisted he do the job to which he was elected, Rep. Paul Hodes (D-NH) tried a more sympathetic approach with the Nashua Telegraph. How can people expect their elected representatives in the House and Senate to read the bills before voting on them? Do constituents have any appreciation for their workload?
    Democratic Rep. Paul Hodes (NH-02) believes reading every bill in Congress “would slow down the business of Congress to a crawl and it would be hard to get done what needs to be done.”
    Members of Congress who don’t read the bills they are voting on “is not necessarily the major problem with the way Congress functions,” he said. …
    “Hodes said it’s not realistic to expect members of Congress to read every bill word-for-word, as Congress took more than 2,000 votes in the session that ended in December,” the paper reports.
    This year, Hodes voted in support of President Barack Obama’s stimulus package and for so-called cap-and-trade legislation. Both measures were finalized late in the legislative process and rushed to a vote before any individual member could read the bills.
    First, most of those bills are proclamations and minor legislation renaming post offices and the like, not serious lawmaking. Even apart from that, does Hodes really want to issue a cri de coeur over the hard life of a Representative — on the first day of his six-week vacation? How many people get paid $174,000 per year for working four-day weeks for about two-thirds of a year? I’m certain his constituents will feel his pain, especially those having to work overtime to make ends meet or those who can’t get a job at all in this economy.
    Continues……

    Reply

  52. Outraged American says:

    Yeah, Hodes saw the canopy over the Sderot backyard
    swimming pool torn by a Palestinian bottle rocket.
    I actually called his office when Hodes said something equally as
    absurd a few weeks ago. The 9-year-old who answered the
    phone asked if I was from New Hampshire, because she couldn’t
    relay my message to the Congressman if I wasn’t, and I
    reminded her of the fact that my tax dollars are spread equally
    throughout Congress.
    So despite that California has a few billion citizens, not counting
    the Mes-Skins, and New Hampshire has four, her congressman
    gets as much money from me as the thugs and whores who
    “represent” California do, including uber war profiteer Feinstein.
    For all those who want to turn me in for pulling an Ann Coulter,
    I voted legally in Cali the last time, because I was in transition.
    Next election I just won’t vote. What’s the point unless we all
    get to vote in Israel?

    Reply

  53. PissedOffAmerican says:

    The following link takes you to a lengthy article that includes the Congressional and public statements of the various “representatives” that endorsed the bloodbath known as “Operation Cast Lead”. It also includes the statements of Ron Paul, and Dennis Kucinich, who refused to endorse Israel’s actions.
    I can’t help but wonder if Dan K, expressing his satisfaction with his “representative”, is aware the his representative supports frying Palestinian women and children in white phosphorous.
    Heres Hodes ignoring the fact that it was ISRAEL that broke the cease fire on Nov.4th, 2008.
    http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=453145
    Rep. Paul Hodes (D-NH)
    Concord, NH— Congressman Paul Hodes (D, NH-2) released the following statement on the ongoing violence in the Middle East. “It is extremely unfortunate that Hamas’ despicable terrorist activity has necessitated a response from Israel to protect itself. I had the opportunity to visit Sderot last year and saw first hand the damage done by incessant rocket attacks launched from Gaza. The United States must stand by Israel’s right to defend itself. We call on Hamas to renounce terrorism, recognize Israel’s right to exist and to live in peace. The attacks from Hamas must end for a constructive peace dialogue to begin. Our thoughts are with the families in the region during this difficult time and our hope is for an end to the violence and peace negotiations to resume.” (Press Release, December 31, 2008)

    Reply

  54. PissedOffAmerican says:

    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/02/israel-is-in-my-dna-and-is-the-home-for-the-jewish-people.html
    He (Hodes) also spoke about his first trip to Israel, in 2007:
    Hodes says his support in Congress for Israel was never in doubt. “It’s in my DNA,” he said. But the trip solidified that support in ways he struggles to articulate.
    “It’s very interesting in midlife to come to a place where something is as moving as my trip was in terms of seeing the home for the Jewish people and understanding how fragile life is there, and how important the relationship between America and Israel is,” Hodes said. “It was a stunner.”
    http://capwiz.com/aipac/issues/bills/?bill=13259581&cs_party=all&cs_status=C&cs_state=ALL
    Bill Name: To amend the Iran Sanctions Act of 1996 to enhance United States diplomatic efforts with respect to Iran by expanding economic sanctions against Iran.
    Bill Number: H.R.2194
    co sponsor from New Hampshire? Paul Hodes.

    Reply

  55. Dan K says:

    I am more or less happy with my own Representative, Paul Hodes.

    Reply

  56. Carroll says:

    Posted by PissedOffAmerican, Sep 07 2009, 3:37PM
    “Who here, as a AMERICAN CITIZEN, feels “represented” by these lying pieces of shit in Washington DC? “>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Not me…or anyone I know…really, not a single person I know.
    BWTTGASO.
    I’ll bring the torches.

    Reply

  57. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    POA…meanwhile, back at the range, I’d say go Frency with the poodle…chien aux vins…

    Reply

  58. ... says:

    utah philips in an interview on democracy now.. sent to me by a friend.. some here might find it rewarding to watch/listen..
    http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/7/the_golden_voice_of_the_great

    Reply

  59. Outraged American says:

    POA, I’ve spent the last 4+ years looking at picture of kids my tax $
    have made look like half-eaten chicken wings.
    There’s no way we can change things so we might as well laugh.

    Reply

  60. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Excerpt…..
    “The Iranian president said his country would continue to have routine talks with the IAEA. But in his report to the agency’s board, ElBaradei said Iran had failed to answer questions arising from evidence suggesting it had at least contemplated the design of a warhead”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/07/iran-nuclear-sanctions-elbaradei
    Uh oh, they can’t prove an Iranian nuclear weapons program, so now they are going to go after Iran for “contemplating” one?
    What a fuckin’ joke.
    I see the AIPAC website still has John Kerry on its home page, being its billboarded mouthpiece, blathering the Israeli sales pitch about the deadly Iran/nukes.
    Considering the settlement issue, and the issue of Iran, it is increasingly obvious the Democratic party is owned, lock stock and barrel, by Israel. The Dems will NEVER recieve one single vote from me again. A vote for a democrat, is a vote for killing more Palestinians, stealing more land, and perpetual war on Israel’s behalf. And a vote for a Republican is no better. So where the fuck is the “representation”? Who here, as a AMERICAN CITIZEN, feels “represented” by these lying pieces of shit in Washington DC?

    Reply

  61. PissedOffAmerican says:

    BTW, in the above cited essay by Tim Hjersted, he concludes….
    “Fortunately, issues of torture, WMDs, and illegal wiretapping have not had the same cultural stigma, and the truth has come out about these issues”
    I couldn’t disagree more. I think that statement is naive and misleading. We DO NOT know the truth about these issues, and there are very real criminals, in the upper branches of our government, that are escaping accountability for their crimes because of the continued efforts, under the Obama Administration, to conceal the truth from us.

    Reply

  62. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Since we’ve already discussed the delicate
    subject of your genetalia do you want it hacked off before or after? More importantly, will (I) be able to find it?”
    You’ll have to ask Wig-wag about that, as she has used her powers of teleportation to pay me a paranormal visit while I was showering. As fate would have it, it was a cold shower day. Gads, how I despise nosy intrusive hasbarists. The least she could have done is drop in while I was outdoors with my Stihl 250 running. Number one, I would have made a better showing, and, number two, it would have been the last time she dropped in on anyone unannounced, or otherwise.
    But, uh, do me a favor, will ya? Lets put an end to this kind of banter, shall we? I’m quite concerned that we will embarrass Mr. Kervick further, by not devoting ourselves to the grave seriousness and deep analysis that current events demand. It is obvious that great attention has been paid to every detail of conning the American people into buying into this global charade known as the GWOT by the charlatans masquerading as “representatives” of the American people. Such epic and monumental efforts of deception certainly demand our unfettered respect and civil discussion.
    We need to sound smart while we are getting fucked out of our freedoms, our voices, and our security. Now is not the time for inane levity. We need to bend over with dignity, and suffer the lack of lubricants with stoic indifference and smart sounding complacency. Its the American way.
    http://www2.ljworld.com/weblogs/tribalzendancer/2009/sep/05/why-conspiracy-theory-rhetoric-is-hurting-our-demo/
    Why Conspiracy Theory Rhetoric is Hurting our Democracy
    By Tim Hjersted
    Shortly after the terrorist attacks of September 11th, President Bush asked the American public to “never entertain outrageous conspiracy theories.” The irony of his statement is easily lost. Most people consider themselves reasonable, thoughtful individuals that don’t believe in crazy conspiracy theories, but the Official story of 9/11 – that 19 radical terrorists conspired for several years to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings – is, in fact, a conspiracy theory. It just happens that this theory has the official endorsement of the U.S. government. So, believe our conspiracy theory, not theirs, Mr. Bush asks us. Don’t look at the facts. Don’t investigate for yourself. Just believe what you’re told.
    This is, in effect, what the government and the mainstream media is asking us when it labels any idea a “conspiracy theory,” and we can see how incredibly effective this tool has been in stunting rational debate.
    Over the decades, the term “conspiracy theory” has gained an increasingly negative stigma. People associate conspiracy theorists with kooks and wackos, paranoid rabble-rousers and self-proclaimed prophets with delusions of grandeur.
    Long story short, the term has a whole long list of negative connotations, and most reasonable folks who value their reputation will avoid any conspiracy topics like the plague once it’s clear that the topic is now deemed ultra hazardous “conspiracy” territory.
    Because of this, the term has become an incredibly effective propaganda tool for those who would prefer to silence dissenting opinions rather than debate them. After all, if you can’t win an argument with evidence and reason, dismissing the topic by negative association is your next best bet.
    9/11, of course, has been the most recent casualty of the “crazy conspiracy theory” propaganda tactic.
    You can almost hear the sirens going off and the bright flashing warning lights that turn on when someone brings up alternative ideas about 9/11. “Whoa,” people cry, “don’t go there!” Discussing 9/11 critically remains as heretical today as questioning the Iraq war was back in 2003.
    Our mainstream media got the hint early on. The political climate around the issue has been inhospitable, to say the least. Quickly after the official narrative became dominant in the headlines, reporting on any conflicting evidence or giving air time to “both sides of the story” would have been career suicide.
    Because of this, we have seen a virtual blackout of serious investigation from the mainstream media. Even most of the liberal alternative media has steered clear of the issue most likely because it would be deemed too costly to their credibility.
    All the while, serious evidence that has been dug up and compiled by patriotic independent researchers remains largely obscured from mainstream public view. Eight years since the September 11th attacks, a deluge of information has come out that contradicts the official narrative in many ways.
    You wouldn’t know this from the mainstream media, but since the 9/11 Commission released their official report in 2004, over one hundred professors and over fifty senior government officials have been quoted raising serious questions about the integrity and accuracy of the report. Let me give just four examples.
    Senator Max Cleland, a former member of the 9/11 Commission, who resigned in December 2003 and who has been a U.S. Senator from Georgia from 1996 to 2002 is on the record saying:
    “If this decision stands [to limit 9/11 Commission access to White House documents], I, as a member of the commission, cannot look any American in the eye, especially family members of victims, and say the commission had full access. This investigation is now compromised.”
    Next is a quote from Raymond L. McGovern, a 27-year CIA veteran, and former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer:
    “I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 report is a joke. The question is: What’s being covered up? Is it gross malfeasance, gross negligence? Now there are a whole bunch of unanswered questions. And the reason they’re unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions.”
    Third is a quote from Representative Curt Weldon. He is a ten-term Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania. He is the House Armed Services Committee Vice Chairman and Homeland Security Committee Vice Chairman. In a speech he gave to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2005, he says:
    “Intelligence officers … identified [lead 9/11 hijacker] Mohammed Atta and three terrorists a year before 9/11, tried to transfer that information to the FBI, were denied, and the FBI Director has now said … the FBI could have used it to perhaps prevent the hijackings. The 9/11 Commission totally ignored this entire story.
    I am a strong supporter of our military. I am a strong supporter of President Bush. I say all of that, Mr. Speaker, because … there is something desperately wrong here. I have met with at least 10 people who fully corroborate what [intelligence officer] Tony Shaffer says. This is not [about] Republicans or Democrats. It is about what is fundamental to this country.”
    And last, just this month, former F.B.I. translator and government whistle blower Sibel Edmonds said that she was aware from her work at the F.B.I. that “Osama Bin Laden worked for the U.S. right up until 9/11.” Despite this shocking allegation made by a former government official, no mainstream news outlets have covered her story. To this day, she remains gagged and unable to speak about her knowledge due to a court order. Doubly, the testimony that she gave to the Official 9/11 Commission was censored from the final report.
    The list goes on. The point is, these are not “nut-job” conspiracy theorists. As Alan Miller writes on behalf of WantToKnow.info:
    “These dedicated individuals from across the political spectrum are not irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report is not only reasonable and responsible, it is in fact a patriotic duty.”
    I just have to wonder what kind of a country we would live in if every topic that the administration wanted to bury could be easily dismissed by labeling it a “conspiracy theory.” What if accusations of torture had been labeled a conspiracy theory? Would we have ever found out about the horrendous acts that took place at Abu Ghraib? Would we have found out that there were in fact high-level discussions in the Bush administration that approved very specific methods of torture?
    What if the accusation that there were no WMD’s in Iraq was labeled a conspiracy theory? Would we have ever found out the truth – that the evidence presented by the administration was a complete fabrication, a lie?
    What if the Bush administration’s secret domestic surveillance program was dismissed as a silly conspiracy theory? “Ooh, Big Brother! Always watching you!” They’d cry. Would journalists have had the political breathing room to investigate whether the claim was true?
    The fact that journalists have been so afraid to investigate legitimate questions about 9/11 sets a dangerous precedent. This tactic will no doubt continue to be exploited as long as the public and the media remains susceptible to its persuasive and silencing effect.
    Fortunately, issues of torture, WMDs, and illegal wiretapping have not had the same cultural stigma, and the truth has come out about these issues. But I have to ask: What price will our democracy pay because our political climate forbids the media from covering some issues that are deemed “too hot to handle.” What price has it already paid?

    Reply

  63. Outraged American says:

    McCain moved. Now he’s about two miles away as opposed to
    300 yards. But he left his damn poodle. Dastard.
    Hope McCain’s cell phone gives out his GPS position for when
    Iran bombs Phoenix.
    POA, can you address the allegation that you are a spy for Iran?
    As I look back over your posts the clues are all there.
    Suspicious fondness for Arabs. Oh wait, Iranians hate Arabs.
    Taliban sympathizer. Oh wait, Iran helped the US in their initial
    effort against the Taliban.
    Love of Hamas. Oh wait, Hamas is Sunni and the mullahs are
    Shia.
    Well, as a descendant of Joe McCarthy ( he was my great-aunt), I
    don’t need no g*ddamn proof to sentence you to 700 lashes for
    being a spy for Iran. Since we’ve already discussed the delicate
    subject of your genetalia do you want it hacked off before or
    after? More importantly, will be able to find it?
    BTW: Israel has admitted she has nukes.

    Reply

  64. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Poodles — there’s a poodle down the street, probably McCain’s, that keeps trying to attack my Catahoula mix. Vicious little
    buggers. Send me the recipe for poodle burgers and I’ll make them the official dish of the Homeland”
    Are you kidding??? Why would you eat poodle burger when you live right near the making’s of an excellent Politico Pate’?

    Reply

  65. ... says:

    i like the way this thread went! could have been far worse….

    Reply

  66. Outraged American says:

    Name of my DC escort service: “Whores for Whores.”
    Done. I’ll get some delivery systems too. No point in having
    nukes without them. Iran better learn that fast, the dumbells.
    Then Feminazia will threaten her neighbors, Phoenixistan,
    Scottsdalestan, and especially Mesasestan — hot bed of radical
    Mormonism. The Morms are out to take over the world.
    I’m going to go back into entertainment and write scripts that
    slyly expose, through humor and drama, The Threat of Radical
    Mormonism. I’ll twist the necks of all my friends in TV until they
    make the Latter Day Saints the villains in sitcoms.
    Then Utah will probably try to get a nuclear weapon, at which
    point Feminazia will cut a deal with…anyone who wants to get
    laid by hot chicks, to ally against the Utahan Threat.
    Paul, I’m going to send you daily updates of the weather here as
    you descend into the throes of the Norwegian winter and I sit
    outside in a tankini.
    Everyone here has a redneck, but none more redder than mine.
    It’s from all that time I spend at the border trying to keep the
    Wetbacks out.
    Poodles — there’s a poodle down the street, probably McCain’s,
    that keeps trying to attack my Catahoula mix. Vicious little
    buggers. Send me the recipe for poodle burgers and I’ll make
    them the official dish of the Homeland.

    Reply

  67. Carroll says:

    For discussing nukes FAS has a good data base.
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/summary.htm
    You can find the Israeli nuke doctrine here also.
    Complete with their “Sampson Option”.
    Every one who has watched the Israelis understands that their nukes aren’t strictly for “protection” against unprovoked attack.
    Israel uses it’s nuke status and threat of nukes to allow them to carry out premptive “agression”…in keeping with the zionist delusion that the chosen people will be a “world force”..a “power”…will ‘rule’ the ME.
    If Iran or Lebanon or Syria for instance had nukes also, Israel wouldn’t be routinely bombing other countries like they did Lebanon and Syria.
    So is it any wonder Iran would like to have nukes?
    Either let Iran have nukes and activate MAD or take away Israel’s nukes.
    The Israeli MO of attacking without provocation any country it pleases and then saying if you attack us back we will ‘nuke’ you needs to be shut down.
    Let other ME countries get the bomb and watch how fast Israel shrinks back inside it’s own walls or blows itself up.

    Reply

  68. Carroll says:

    For discussing nukes FAS has a good data base.
    http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/factsandfigures/government_data_index.html
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/summary.htm
    http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/factsandfigures_index.html
    You can find the Israeli nuke doctrine here also.
    Complete with their “Sampson Option”.
    Every one who has watched the Israelis understands that their nukes aren’t strictly for “protection” against unprovoked attack.
    Israel uses it’s nuke status and threat of nukes to allow them to carry out premptive “agression”…in keeping with the zionist delusion that the chosen people will be a “world force”..a “power”…will ‘rule’ the ME.
    If Iran or Lebanon or Syria for instance had nukes also, Israel wouldn’t be routinely bombing other countries like they did Lebanon and Syria.
    So is it any wonder Iran would like to have nukes?
    Either let Iran have nukes and activate MAD or take away Israel’s nukes.
    The Israeli MO of attacking without provocation any country it pleases and then saying if you attack us back we will ‘nuke’ you needs to be shut down.
    Let other ME countries get the bomb and watch how fast Israel shrinks back inside it’s own walls or blows itself up.

    Reply

  69. Carroll says:

    For discussing nukes FAS has a good data base.
    http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/factsandfigures/government_data_index.html
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/summary.htm
    http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/factsandfigures_index.html
    You can find the Israeli nuke doctrine here also.
    Complete with their “Sampson Option”.
    Every one who has watched the Israelis understands that their nukes aren’t strictly for “protection” against unprovoked attack.
    Israel uses it’s nuke status and threat of nukes to allow them to carry out premptive “agression”…in keeping with the zionist delusion that the chosen people will be a “world force”..a “power”…will ‘rule’ the ME.
    If Iran or Lebanon or Syria for instance had nukes also, Israel wouldn’t be routinely bombing other countries like they did Lebanon and Syria.
    So is it any wonder Iran would like to have nukes?
    Either let Iran have nukes and activate MAD or take away Israel’s nukes.
    The Israeli MO of attacking without provocation any country it pleases and then saying if you attack us back we will ‘nuke’ you needs to be shut down.
    Let other ME countries get the bomb and watch how fast Israel shrinks back inside it’s own walls or blows itself up.

    Reply

  70. Paul Norheim says:

    Can`t say for sure who`s involved in this pizza business,
    Outraged. The only thing I know is that the ladies in
    Feminazia have been eating a hell of a lot of pizza
    recently. “Speciality of the House”? Olive, pineapple and
    chopped poodle.
    (There are some internet rumors about chopped redneck liver
    as well, but I think this is pure propaganda)

    Reply

  71. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Read the following excerpt carefully, and note Israel’s conditions for even a “pause” in settlement expansion. What Arab nation is going to give Israel unfettered access to its airspace? Israel, to even make minor inconsequential concessions, demands conditions it KNOWS will not be met. What more proof does anyone need to convince themselves that Israel does not want peace?
    And where is an equally forceful response from Clinton or Obama? How long will these too send their spokesmen out to make tepid and unpublicized protestations while Israel screams to the world that the United States is Israel’s bitch?
    Who really runs United States foreign policy? Apperently, Israel, and the treasonous whores Reid and Hoyer, backed up by four fifths of Congress.
    What representative government? What change? What peace? What security?
    http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/06/israeli-cabinet-approves-settlement-expansion-rules-out-full-freeze/
    Israeli Cabinet Approves Settlement Expansion, Rules Out Full Freeze
    Deputy PM Says Govt Will Agree to ‘Strategic Pause’
    by Jason Ditz, September 06, 2009
    The Israeli Cabinet has united in favor of the planned approval of several hundred new housing units in West Bank settlements, and has rejected any notion of a full settlement freeze. Officials insist, however, that a ‘compromise’ deal is close with the US.
    Israeli Minister Eli YishaiDeputy Prime Minister and Interior Minister Eli Yishai said that the agreement will only amount to a “strategic pause” during which Israel will not approve any new construction, though work on the thousands of approved units, including those recently announced will be allowed to continue.
    Israeli officials say this “pause” will only occur if the nation is given certain incentives, including Arab states allowing Israeli planes access to their airspace and other economic incentives. And while the US reportedly is seeking a pause of one year, officials say it is likely to only be for a few months. East Jerusalem will not be involved in any deal.
    Continues……..
    And why Steve’s silence on Israel’s arrogance? Why his silence on the mutinous and undermining efforts of Reid and Hoyer? “More later” is no longer a credible bargaining chip to garner our optimism about his objectiveness or his alliances. Far too much is occurring in the ISR/Pal/USA dynamic to continue to overlook this inexplicable non-engagement on Steve’s part. I don’t get it.

    Reply

  72. easy e says:

    Nadine is undoubtedly a fervent admirer of Daniel Pipes and a passionate watcher of the beacon of credible journalism, Faux News……….
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/77376/iran_declares_war_on_usa/
    [ I expected to see a comment from Nadine on the video clip; perhaps she goes by a different name on other blogs ]

    Reply

  73. Carroll says:

    Posted by nadine, Sep 05 2009, 7:11PM – Link
    Kathleen, Carroll refers to the Jews as a “cannibal zionist tribe” who should be made “extinct” >>>>>>>>>
    You should be extinct…like the nazis. And get use to being called cannibals, it’s going to continue.
    I long ago gave up intelligent debate backed up by hundreds of offical documents and mountains of records on the I-P conflict and Israel’s history and zionism because you can’t debate or inform the dishonest and the cult mentality…it’s a waste of time…even when confronted with undeniable facts they continue wih the same yada,yada disproven lies like blind cave bats.
    What is not a waste of time, as has been recently shown by changing attitudes and US public opinion on Israel, is calling you out for what you are.
    As they say in the movies if you bring a knife to the fight I will bring a gun…every time you start the whinning, sluring, anti semitism, victimhood, myth and lying bullshit you’re gonna get called what you are…cannibals, parasites, midget nazis.
    My goal in commenting now is to help kill off all political correctness and up the anty on the nazi zionist and to help others feel free to call your disguting cult what it is. Over the past two years the anti semite hurl as an excuse to cover the zionist agenda and crimes has been all but wiped out..it’s become a joke.
    Now we get on to the business of encouraging the public to speak up and speak honestly about Israel and the zionist cannibals that threaten not only the ME but the US and all Americans.
    It’s a new day honey. The holocaust excuse for zionist genocide of Palestine and treason against America is dead.
    If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen cause it’s going to get even hotter.

    Reply

  74. Outraged American says:

    aSalaam Alaykum, Ahmad. I assume you’re a Jew. Good point.
    Jackie, those damn A-Rabs not only have nukes pointed at your
    city, and a dirty bomb poised to detonate at the corner
    raghead-owned 7/11, they are hiding under your bed.
    Wait — no they’re Persians. But they still wear rags on their
    heads and have long range missiles that can hit Hawai’i. Forget
    the nukes, the Persians should do an Israeli type genetic based
    weapon and take out all the Haoles in revenge for B. Hussein
    Obama not being born there.
    The Israelis will probably do it first given that Bibi just sent a
    huge F-you to Hussein O.
    Barak Approves Construction of 455 West Bank Homes
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?
    pid=20601087&sid=aO1TKptOIJhQ
    Check under the bed with a flashlight and a baseball bat. No, on
    second thought, being the compulsive Iranian invaders that they
    are, they probably have squirt guns, so be an American and get
    out your AK-47.
    Make sure you wear a burka, even if you’re male, lest they want
    to take advantage of you, because Muslims have never seen
    anyone in US- style night clothes before, and might get turned
    on by a woman wearing only a 12-year-old T-shirt saying “I’M
    OUT OF ESTROGEN AND I HAVE A GUN”
    They’re a violent lot.
    Be careful not to mistakenly attack the dust bunnies. Much like
    the Palestinians, they’re powerless and will resort to asymetrical
    warfare, like ramming themselves up your nostrils while you
    sleep, or hurling themselves into your first, relaxing, cup of
    morning vodka.
    Paul, are you implying that POA is an Iranian spy? I have had my
    suspicions. What better front than to pretend to be in
    construction in rural Central California/ Northern Mexico?
    That’s an even better cover than those Israeli art students who
    mysteriously followed around the Sept. 11 “hijackers.”
    My homeland better not vanish from the pages of time. All the
    hot babes are there. Better start a lobby. The American-
    Feminazia Public Affairs Committee.
    No, that’s too boring, I’ll just start a DC escort service. Will have
    my own nukes faster than Iran does, that’s for sure.

    Reply

  75. ahmad says:

    why we blame to Israel and America ragarding Nukes of iran when our islamic countries of middle east keep sielence on Israel but cry on iran.They consider Iran a greater risk than Israel because these countries are allies of America with israel.

    Reply

  76. Paul Norheim says:

    Careful Outraged,
    right now the Mad Mullahs of Mascunazistan are
    pointing their not-yet-perhaps-never-to be-
    developed nukes at the capital of your homeland –
    intending to wipe it off the map, or waiting for it
    to vanish from the page of time – depending on
    which translation you trust.
    They`ve also smuggled in spies – masked as
    androgynous employees from a Pizza Restaurant.

    Reply

  77. ... says:

    david 436pm post…. why is it that those who have eyes, can’t see and those who have ears can’t
    hear?? did you ever get your head around that particular parable??? i think it was meant for the scribes and parasees.. those were the religious scholars of the day who were schooled very well in the letter, but had absolutely no inner understanding of any of it…
    so many seekers after truth settle for a literal, materialistic understanding of the bible.. they are just like the scribes and parasees jesus talked about… you appear to be a modern day version… dig a bit deeper.. the bible isn’t some literal thing to clobber others over the head with.. thinking ‘israel’ is nothing more then a country with a changing border in the 21st century will not help your ‘biblical’ understanding any either unless you were trying to be a modern day scribe or parasee…

    Reply

  78. Outraged American says:

    Ok Pauline, I’ll try to get this Collins Piper on the show, although I
    never trust hyphenated names.
    Are you sure he isn’t writing his Amazon reviews himself?
    And you are very seriously invited to be the High Priestess of my
    homeland, which was started in response to Anti-Feminism on this
    very site.

    Reply

  79. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Prather pretty well lays it out for us as far as the extreme measures the United States has gone to to demonize and illegalize Iran’s nuclear program….
    http://original.antiwar.com/prather/2009/09/04/elbaradeis-swan-song-2/
    ElBaradei’s Swan Song
    by Gordon Prather, September 05, 2009
    Director-General Mohamed ElBaradei – who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to prevent Bush-Cheney-Bolton from launching a war of aggression against Iraq on the basis of false accusations about Iraq’s nuclear programs, then verified by ElBaradei to be in compliance with its Safeguards Agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency – has really had it tough the past several years.
    ElBaradei has had to contend with a Board of Governors that has acted in blatant disregard of the governing articles of the IAEA Statute, violating Iran’s inalienable rights affirmed not only in Iran’s Safeguards Agreement and in the IAEA Statute, but also affirmed by the Treaty on Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
    ElBaradei has just provided his final report which – once again – “continues to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material in Iran.” In other words, Irancontinues to be in complete compliance with its NPT-related Safeguards Agreement, and hence, continues to fulfill its NPT obligations as a non-nuclear-weapon signatory.
    Okay, but what’s all this contained in his report about “relevant provisions of Security Council resolutions 1737, 1747, 1803, and 1835”?
    Well, those are the Security Council resolutions which Bonkers Bolton strong-armed the Security Council – despite some resistance from Russia and perhaps China – into passing, in blatant disregard of the governing articles of the UN Charter.
    You see, way back in February, 2006, as a result of strenuous arm-twisting by Bush-Cheney-Bolton, the IAEA Board passed a resolution [.pdf], which after
    “Recalling that Article IV of the NPT stipulates that nothing in the Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable rights of all Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination,”
    nevertheless, proceeded to discriminate, “deeming it necessary” for Iran to:
    re-establish full and sustained suspension of all enrichment-related and reprocessing activities, including research and development, to be verified by the Agency;
    reconsider the construction of a research reactor moderated by heavy water;
    ratify promptly and implement in full the Additional Protocol;
    pending ratification, continue to act in accordance with the provisions of the Additional Protocol which Iran signed on 18 December 2003;
    implement transparency measures, as requested by the Director General, including in GOV/2005/67, which extend beyond the formal requirements of the Safeguards Agreement and Additional Protocol, and include such access to individuals, documentation relating to procurement, dual use equipment, certain military-owned workshops and research and development as the Agency may request in support of its ongoing investigations;
    Bush-Cheney-Bolton hoped that this outrageous “decision” by the IAEA Board, in violation of the IAEA Statute and the UN Charter, would result in Iran withdrawing from the NPT, itself, as had North Korea.
    It didn’t work.
    So, then Bush-Cheney-Bolton got the UN Security Council – claiming to be “acting under Article 41 of Chapter VII ” of the UN Charter – to “decide” that Iran “shall, without further delay, suspend”
    (a) all enrichment-related and reprocessing activities, including research and development, to be verified by the IAEA; and
    (b) work on all heavy water-related projects, including the construction of a research reactor moderated by heavy water, also to be verified by the IAEA;
    Furthermore;
    “Decides that all States shall take the necessary measures to prevent the supply, sale or transfer directly or indirectly from their territories, or by their nationals or using their flag vessels or aircraft to, or for the use in or benefit of, Iran, and whether or not originating in their territories, of all items, materials, equipment, goods and technology which could contribute to Iran’s enrichment-related, reprocessing or heavy water-related activities, or to the development of nuclear weapon delivery systems.”
    Now, these actions by the Security Council not only amounted to an egregious violation of Iran’s rights affirmed by the NPT, and the IAEA Statute, and Iran’s IAEA Safeguards Agreement, but also an egregious violation by the Security Council of the procedures set forth in Chapter VII of its charter, entitled “Action with respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression”
    “Article 39: The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.
    “Article 40: In order to prevent an aggravation of the situation, the Security Council may, before making the recommendations or deciding upon the measures provided for in Article 39, call upon the parties concerned to comply with such provisional measures as it deems necessary or desirable. Such provisional measures shall be without prejudice to the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned. The Security Council shall duly take account of failure to comply with such provisional measures.
    “Article 41: The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.”
    The Security Council had noreason to even consider, apropos Article 39, whether Iran’s failure to capitulate to the outrageous demands of the IAEA Board – made in obvious violation of the IAEA Statute, the NPT and Iran’s Safeguards Agreement – could possibly constitute a threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression.
    At worst, the Security Council, upon receiving the outrageous IAEA Board “report,” should have called, apropos Article 40, upon “the parties concerned” to comply with “certain provisional measures,” without “prejudicing the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned.”
    There is no sense in which the measures imposed by the Security Council in Resolution 1737 can be viewed as not “prejudicing the rights, claims or position” of Iran.
    continues…….

    Reply

  80. pauline says:

    Another Amazon reader’s review — this one of Michael Collins Piper’s, “The Judas Goats: The Shocking Story of the Infiltration and Subversion of the American Nationalist Movement”.
    “Michael Collins Piper has done an outstanding job once again in presenting an in-depth expose of the elements within this country who are destroying this great nation in the interests of a cabal that has global hegemony as its goal. The book examines the origins and the modi operandi of the traitors within our borders who have promoted themselves as patriotic Americans but in actuality have functioned as dupes for those nefarious characters who wish to destroy the constitutional foundations of our republic and to establish a “tyranny of the plutocrats”. Many of the individuals whom I admired growing up in this country whom the popular media portrayed as being exemplary, America first patriots were not really loyal to this nation according to the research conducted by Piper. Money and greed can corrupt anyone, and principles are the first to be sacrificed when seeking fame and recognition.
    “Piper has done a thorough and precise analysis of the historical trends over the past sixty years and the groups that have tried to manipulate and to profit from the outcomes of significant events such as World War II, the Middle East conflict, the social revolutions of the 60’s in America, and this so called “war on terror”. The author does not seek to blame any ethnicity or political group for hijacking patriotism and promoting “globalism” to benefit only the super rich. He is genuinely pro-American and wants to revert to the essence of the republic that was founded out of rebellion from colonial bondage. Piper makes noteworthy references to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and their warnings against foreign intervention and alliances for this nation, which they foresaw as bringing substantial complications to this nation.
    “This well written and documented book should be a must read for social science (political science, history, economics, etc.) students. The impending dangers facing this country has to be understood by those who are searching for valid and logical explanations to the causes of the political and economic problems in this society. True patriots will also be astounded by the factual information presented in the text. While Michael Collins Piper may not be invited to any book signing ceremonies at Barnes and Noble, his book is priceless in the attempt to inform and to educate the masses in the tradition of his other great works such as FINAL JUDGMENT, THE HIGH PRIESTS OF WAR, and NEW JERUSALEM.”

    Reply

  81. questions says:

    Just offered some Oregon on vinyl to a friend. We’re all digitized at this point.

    Reply

  82. Outraged American says:

    The ad at the top of the sites says “Ann Coulter-Free!” No thanks,
    not even with a strap-on dildo and 72 virgins.

    Reply

  83. Jackie says:

    Yikes, Iran has nukes pointed at Kansas City? I hope it’s Kansas City, MO and not Kansas City, KS, since I live here. I really hope they do geography better than we do. Do you really think you will get to 197 comments? Just curious.

    Reply

  84. DonS says:

    tripping down memory lane, I thank you, . . ., for reminding me of Ralph Towner, nd in particular I include “Sargasso Sea”. I’m glad you had the chance to interact with some of these folks who did seem to represent a certain vibe.

    Reply

  85. ... says:

    dons – oregon was the main influence for all the new age music that came afterward, including winter and etc.. most of that stuff was really watered down and not all that good.. however oregon was really good.. i got to see them live a few times and their music, or that of ralph towners anyway was also carried on the ecm label.. i once did the banff jazz workshop in 82 or 83 and the teaching staff included abercrombie and holland, along with kenny wheeler, albert mangledorf, dave liebman and a few others… very educational and inspirational to be able to play with these musician who i really looked up to at the time.. dejohnette who lives in woodstock ny is still one of my favourite drummers and has been an influence on many others including myself.

    Reply

  86. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    Paul Norheim…sorry..I’m the one who introduced the organ donor issue to this thread…as I explained up thread, it felt like the same bottom line, namely, Isreal can have nukes, but Iran can’t…Israelis can have live organs, but don’t donate them much and on the subject of presumed consent…they seem to think it’s okay to harvest organs from Palestinian dead,without consent, so I wondered how they would like that policy..
    So back on topic, sort of, who should be trusted with nukes, I’m always amused with the canard that Iran says Isreal should be wiped off the map, given that Palestiune has already been wiped off the map…
    Here’s what the EU thinks of Israel’s human rights record…
    Legal Action to enforce Human Rights Conditions in EU-Israel Association Agreement
    Clare Short MP and the European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza have launched a legal action to require the European Union to uphold the human rights conditions entrenched in the EU-Israel Association Agreement. The action was launched in a letter sent to President Barroso and Javier Solana, the High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy, spelling out the way in which the Treaty conditions are being breached and the way in which international law applies. The case is being taken forward on behalf of the complainants by Public Interest Lawyers of 8 Hylton Street, Birmingham.
    The Commission has been given 28 days to reply to the detailed case outlined in a 15 page letter which spells out the fact that under the EU-Israel Association Agreement, the EU has clear obligations in the light of Israel’s violations of international human rights and humanitarian law in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The case made is that the EU is failing to meet these obligations.
    In the letter it is argued that ‘Palestinian, Israeli and International Human Rights organizations have concluded in numerous reports and studies that Israel’s actions in Operation Cast Lead intentionally and systematically disregarded and violated both international humanitarian law and international human rights law’.
    Furthermore ‘the combined reports delivered to the UN including that of Richard Falk, charged with investigating the human rights situation in Palestine found several breaches of law in Operation Cast Lead. The Special Rapporteur on Poverty discussed reports that during the military intervention Israel deliberately obstructed the work of humanitarian personnel leaving the poor without basic medical, food and other services in violation of both international humanitarian law and human rights law’
    The case presented outlines the position of the International Court of Justice and the UN with respect to the countless violations, amongst which include the acquisition of territory by force, obstructing the self determination of the Palestinian People and many other peremptory norms.
    In pointing to EU’s obligation in the face of so many reports and statements of the highest authority in international law, it states that ‘Under the Geneva convention The EU must not only insure that its own comply with human rights: it also requires it to base its relations with Israel on the mutual respect for human rights . Thus where Israel persistently violates human rights and the EU does not take appropriate steps against Israel it will be in breach of article 2 of the Geneva Convention’.
    Maintaining the status quo in the EU-Israeli Association Agreement, which makes Israel, EU’s biggest trading partner is improper and more importantly it is justiciable. The letter points towards specific steps which the European Community is required to take under the agreement where Israel is in breach of Article 2 of the Geneva Convention.
    In recognition of its obligations it calls upon the Commissioner to meet its obligations and further provide detailed description of its actions in fulfilling its obligations.
    Clare Short said today “I and many others have tried through our parliaments to require our governments to comply with international law, without success. We now hope legal action will require compliance. It is my firm belief that the only way to peace is to require Israel to comply with international law and that this is in the interests of all parties. The European Commission and member states are failing in their duty to uphold the conditions of our own treaty with Israel and to use these requirements to obtain long term peace and justice.”
    A full copy of the letter is available here:
    http://www.savegaza.eu/images/stories/letter_to_council_of_ministers.pdf

    Reply

  87. DonS says:

    I know when I realized that the Koln Concert was improvisational it was hard to fathom.
    From ECM catalog, and I have a good number of their 33’s, I’ve had a certain attraction to “Cloud Dance” (Abercrombie, Holland, and de Jonnette I believe). I like most of what I’ve heard, though I don’t listen to it much (or anything) these days. Except for the Aeolian harp; I never did quite get that one. Anyway, the ECM material, IMO, so far outclasses any of the later so-called new age gossamer stuff.
    I will say, the Winter Consort/Oregon (“Brown Ricccce”) had a certain something going for a while.

    Reply

  88. ... says:

    paul, lol!!!
    i have a cd of ‘belonging’, along with ‘my song’, both great recordings.. that is cool you met some of those folks… jon is still playing as are jan g i believe… i know jarrett is..
    there was a group from norway that played here about a year ago maybe – atomic… i don’t know if you have heard of them, but everyone is from norway, except one from sweden… they were awesome.. the drummers dad runs a jazz club in trondheim and he is also a drummer – paal nilssen love… they started as a reaction to ecm, which is an interesting approach!
    >>Atomic grew out of the reaction against the so-called ‘mountain jazz’ (or ECM school) begun 10 years ago by the vigorous, high energy Coltrane inspired group Element. ‘Our tone is much more back to basics, in a way, the music is right to the point,’ explains Haker Flaten.<<
    http://www.jazzlandrec.com/atomic_bio.html
    check them out if they play anytime near you..

    Reply

  89. Paul Norheim says:

    Between us POA, that threatening Sweden stuff was just something I said. As a
    matter of fact, I never threaten Sweden, not even with conventional weapons.
    I just claimed that I do so, as a polemical point. It was a big lie. Just
    like Nadine, I`m a liar. If she confront me with that particular lie, I
    intend to say: “What lie, Nadine?” Then I plan to falsely accuse her of
    threatening to bomb Nicaragua, and blame her for this in very strong words.
    I invited Kotz to help us get back on track, but he didn`t take the
    challenge. I guess it has something to do with his amour propre. Or perhaps
    he`s in a cul-de-sac right now, who knows? So I would say Poodle Stew recipes
    may be considered an on topic eh… topic.

    Reply

  90. David says:

    ISRAEL NUKES BIBLICAL!
    This is very much off subject, but it is acually Biblical that Israel have nuclear weapons. In Zecheriah 14:12 it mentions a plague that will strike the nations that war against Israel. The affects of this plague are the same affects of a nuclear weapon. REALLY LOOK THIS UP!
    We should not deter or try to stop Israel from owning nukes!

    Reply

  91. questions says:

    http://washingtonindependent.com/57912/glenn-becks-next-target-cass-sunstein
    Back to Sunstein, I just gotta ask, is this where the panic comes from???? Nothin’ like a little Glenn Beck truthiness to wake me up in the morning!
    I’m off to Samarra to avoid my fate!! Woohoo! Gonna meet Oedipus and his dad there too!! Party time!!

    Reply

  92. paul Norheim says:

    POA, I guess my chit chat posts may add some 10-20 comments to those I predicted.
    197 PLUSS my chit chat.
    I`ll check out Wyman, and also Winstone, tomorrow, when I have broadband
    connection.

    Reply

  93. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I notice that you`ve put up an impressive fight
    with destiny, Questions”
    Well, what has questions to respond to?
    Certainly, articles describing Congressional junkets to Israel by scores of Democratic and Republican Congresspeople, paid for by AIPAC, as well as AIPAC actually writing Congressional correspondence, demonstrates questions oft offered premise of AIPAC’s irrelevency, doesn’t it?

    Reply

  94. Paul Norheim says:

    “And so I, like the visitor to Samarra, am avoiding
    my Paul-declared fate!”
    I notice that you`ve put up an impressive fight
    with destiny, Questions. Not bad. There are many
    not-yet-written comments on this thread, though. 84
    or 184, to be precise.

    Reply

  95. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Stay on topic people”
    I thought the topic was….
    “how many posts will be on this thread?”.
    or….
    “Organ theft”.
    or….
    “Nadine’s dishonesty.”
    or……
    “Kotz’ drooling bigotry and paranoia.”
    or…….
    “MEMRI mistranslations”
    or……
    “How long ago was the Viet Nam conflict?”
    BTW, Paul, weren’t you just recently taking OA to task for making a statement similiar to the following? Or was that Arthur?……..
    “I frequently threaten Sweden in similar phrases, Nadine, but neither I nor Iran possess
    nukes”
    …(referencing tongue in cheek threats to “nuke” one country or another.)
    Can we talk about Poodle Stew recipes now, or is that too far off topic?

    Reply

  96. Outraged American says:

    Yahweh! Why are we talking about Bach when Iran has nukes
    pointed at Kansas City?
    Stay on topic people.

    Reply

  97. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “That Ahmedinejad denies the Holocaust and calls Israel a rotten corpse and says it should and will be removed from the map? Is that a lie too?”
    Yes, Nadine, that is a lie. Heres half of it. Perhaps you’ll supply the other half by supplying us with a quote from Ahmedinejad, “denying the holocaust”.
    Yes, Nadine, repeatedly, I have demonstrated, irrefutably, that you are a filthy liar.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16218.htm
    Iran’s President Did Not Say “Israel must be wiped off the map”
    By Arash Norouzi
    01/18/07 “Information Clearing House” — — Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran’s President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, “Israel must be wiped off the map”. Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as this article will prove.
    BACKGROUND:
    On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled “The World Without Zionism”. Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster’s title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass’ narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.
    Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote— they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.
    THE ACTUAL QUOTE:
    So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in farsi: “Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.”
    That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word “Regime”, pronounced just like the English word with an extra “eh” sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase “rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).
    So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh”, is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map”, despite never having uttered the words “map”, “wipe out” or even “Israel”.
    THE PROOF:
    The full quote translated directly to English:
    “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”.
    Word by word translation:
    Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
    Here is the full transcript of the speech in farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad’s web site
    http://www.president.ir/farsi/ahmadinejad/speeches/1384/aban-84/840804sahyonizm.htm
    continues……

    Reply

  98. questions says:

    The pieces I’ve heard from the Jenny Lin Shostakovich have had this Bach-with-a-twist sensibility that just grabbed my ear and kept me rapt. I would expect the next note to be some particular thing, and then the twist. Really something! Hope the whole thing lives up to the part I heard!
    Came across Turning Point’s “Creatures of the Night” while youtubing earlier. Funk and jazz blend. Kinda funky.
    And I agree that music would be far better than bombs.

    Reply

  99. PissedOffAmerican says:

    BTW, Paul, your prediction about the thread length has no credibility if you are going to simply seed the thread with off topic chit chat in an effort to reach the desired number.
    But if you must, check out Bill Wyman and The Rythym Kings for some roots. An old friend of mine, (whom I haven’t seen for some time now, and miss he and his family dearly), Albert Lee, plays with this eclectic mix of talented musicians. Its fun stuff.

    Reply

  100. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Its interesting how many of you miss the obvious holes in Nadine’s particular line of bullshit. Nadine is quite fond of pointing out Iranian humanitarian trangressions that disqualify them, morally, from possessing nuclear weaponry.
    But her list of Iranian crimes can easily be put right in the laps of the Israelis, for each and every Iranian action she describes is being committed daily by Israel against the Palestinian people. Peaceful protest is met with deadly force. Journalists are regularly targeted. Torture is routine in Israel, to the point there are credible allegations that Mossad agents were participants in the Abu Ghraib abuses. The Mossad is also believed to have coached the CIA on torture methods. One infamous Abu Ghraib photo reveals an Israeli IDF tattoo on the arm of an interogator.
    But even more germaine to the topic of this thread is Israel’s past history of both false flag attacks, and the use of weapons designed to inflict mass casualties against civilian populations. As we KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Israel used thousands of cluster bombs in Lebanon, both in populated and unpopulated regions, raining literally millions of cluster bomblets throughout Lebanon, including areas were no Lebanese combatants were believed to be. Some Lebanese farmlands were rendered unusable because of the dangers of the unexploded bomblets. Further, Israel used white phosphorous in urban areas of Gaza, in direct violation of international treaties defining the protocols of warfare.
    So, Nadine lists a number of crimes that she alleges renders Iran too dangerous and rabid to possess nuclear weapons, while ignoring the fact that Israel commits these crimes on a daily basis, IN ADDITION to its indisputable willingness to inflict mass casualties on civilian populations, as recently demonstrated by Operation Cast Lead. So, who is the dangerous party in ACTUAL POSSESSION of nuclear weapons? Who, recently has inflicted mass casualty on civilian non-combatants? Who has shown a willingness to use modern mass casualty weapons against civilian populations? Who, daily, uses deadly force against peaceful protestors? Who censors the press and recently refused to allow foreign journalists into Gaza to bear witness to Operation Cast Lead? Who has threatened nuclear reaction to the Iranian nuclear program through implied threat? Who has rattled the nuclear sword by sending nuclear armed warships through the Suez Canal? And who has willfully and callously attacked, under false flag pretenses, American military in an effort to involve the United States in war?
    Every single reason that Nadine submits to stop the Iranian nuclear program can be applied to the Israelis. Every single action that she claims demonstrates the Iranian propensity for the USE of nuclear weapons are actions that Israel commits with arrogance and impunity on a regular basis.
    Using Nadine’s own logic and criteria, she has demonstrated to this blog, that, in her own opinion, Israel is far too dangerous a state to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1112475.html
    An excerpt….
    That little village that was previously barely known even in Palestine became synonymous with the nonviolent Palestinian civil struggle and a place where Israeli and Palestinians demonstrate shoulder-to-shoulder. And now, two years after the High Court of Justice ruled that the separation fence built by the IDF there is illegal and ordered the state to redraw its route – two years in which the IDF has not carried out the ruling – the two generals concluded this was the time to smash this wonderful solidarity, to crush the Friday demonstrations in Bil’in.
    It began around six months ago, with approval of the use of special teargas grenades. The Bil’in demonstrators were already the guinea pigs of all sorts of weapons invented in the army’s laboratories: pepper balls that burn the body; “the scream,” a device that emits a frequency of noise said to render demonstrators helpless; “the skunk,” which as its name implies fires a foul-smelling liquid that adheres to clothing and skin and causes vomiting and abdominal pain. This is all, of course, without abandoning the use of rubber-tipped bullets, regular teargas and stun grenades, live bullets and good old plastic and wooden batons. Thus the story of the Bil?in demonstrations is also the story of innumerable broken bones, bleeding faces and bruises in all the colors of the rainbow.
    But the special teargas grenades, with the increased range and the force of a small missile, represent an escalation even for Bil’in. In the neighboring village of Nil’in they caused critical head injuries to Tristan Anderson, an American demonstrator who has been lying in Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, for the past five months. Shortly after their introduction in Bil’in they killed Bassem Abu Rahme, a young man who never hurt a fly and became the first fatality of the demonstrations there.
    After the special grenades came the nighttime raids. Their purpose was to arrest those who the army or the Shin Bet security services believed to be members of the village’s Popular Committee against the Wall, which organizes the demonstrations. For the past two months every few nights the children of Bil’in awaken to the screech of army Jeeps and stun grenades. Companies of soldiers under the command of Shamni and Tivon break into homes, usually at 3 A.M., and arrest whoever they can grab: men, teens and children. Some are released a few hours later, others after a few days and still others remain under arrest on ridiculous accusations. No one touches the Israelis: even the major general and the brigadier general have their limits.

    Reply

  101. ... says:

    we would be so much further along if the money and energy spent on nuclear weapons was applied to music and arts….. instead self preservation and it’s close friend ‘fear’ is mostly what we get… when will folks get beyond there materialistic attachments to something a bit deeper?
    paul – not sure if there’s a connection between radka and norma, but their might be… both great singers either way, one still alive and the other not..
    questions – that’s cool! i have jarretts shostakovich double disc from 92 here.. i think it is great, but i am not a classical purist.. i am focused on jazz and improv primarily.. i liked what one reviewer said from amazon on the jarrett version as it rings very true from what i know of this nature…
    >>All the great classical composers were great improvisors. Because of the constraints of the academy, one wonders if most of todays players could even fake “Happy Birtrhday”.
    We are lucky to have someone like Keith Jarrett alive in our own time. Since he is capable of actually improvising profound music, he seems to bring a liveness and spontenaity to this Shostakovich masterpiece. The first recording I ever heard was by Ashkenazy and even then I felt that something was missing. Then I heard the Jarrett version and it came to life! I’m sure any criticism by classical purists is just jealousy…this is perhaps like hearing a great musician/composer, such as Liszt, playing Chopin…or perhaps like Chopin playing Bach!
    There are so many college trained “button-pusher” pianists around today that it is refreshing to hear the emotional vividness and luminous technique displayed by Jarrett in this recording. I assumed that these pieces would be dark and possess and dated, pre WORLD WAR II quality, but like the Bach pieces that inspired them, they convey all sorts of emotions that are beautifully realized by Keith Jarrett.
    He makes the other versions seem like journeyman efforts that were played by pianists who had to seek out a teacher to told them “How” they should be performed.<<

    Reply

  102. questions says:

    its way to me, not it’s. Urgh. Typos. Urgh.

    Reply

  103. questions says:

    Norma Winstone in the background as I type. THANKS!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpObkq2cmM
    I’ve been working on Shostakovich’s preludes and fugues. Bach with a twist. There’s a new recording by Jenny Lin that is on it’s way to me one day. Very Bach-inspired. The Keith Jarrett, less so, but that’s the one I’m listening to for now.
    And I’m on a big Fats Waller kick. The piano is intricate, the emotions are easy. I love the contrast, even if the emotional stuff is clearly fiction. No one is THAT relaxed!
    And so I, like the visitor to Samarra, am avoiding my Paul-declared fate!

    Reply

  104. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “But remember this: I am not in range of Iran’s long range missiles, but you are. It is not by any law of nature that nobody has tried to invade Norway since the Nazis conquered it, though you seem to think so”
    OMG, now we gotta worry about Iran nuking Norway.
    Like I’ve repeatedly pointed out, Nadine is as crazy as they come.
    As far as that goes, the possibility of a false flag nuclear event, with Israel as the perpetrator, is far more likely than Iran nuking someone with nukes they don’t even have. And history attests, irrefutably, to Israel’s willingness to kill Americans in order to advance its agenda. Note how questions NEVER addresses Israeli false flag attacks, because there is no way to obscure that they’re very real occurrences. Wig-wag never addresses them, because Wig-wag figures any discourse about them only increases the awareness that Israel engages in such criminal action. And Nadine never comments on Israel’s history of false flag attacks because she’s willfully dishonest, but intelligent enough, just barely, to see the stupidity of denying they have occurred.

    Reply

  105. Outraged American says:

    Vietnam was over 50 years ago? I’m 46 and I remember it well, I
    must be a time traveler.
    Pauline, I’ll try to get that author of the JFK book on the show.
    Because Israel is behind every evil thing that ever happened ever.
    I can blame my sister’s divorce on Israel, and I’m not kidding.
    The one good thing Israel has ever done.
    How can you be “verbally” castigated on a message board? Is
    there a call-in number for feuding posters?
    Because I’d like to call Norheim and tell him to get his ass
    outside before the Norwegian summer ends. Paul, don’t bitch
    and moan about the winters there when you’re spending your
    summers typing. Shouldn’t you be out catching salmon or
    yodeling?
    I have interviewed Jonathan Cook of the organ donor story. He
    put himself out there and actually lives in The Holy Land,
    probably at considerable risk to his longevity. Very credible IMO
    and has written some good books on the Yisrael/ Palestine
    situation.

    Reply

  106. Paul Norheim says:

    “Paul, it is indeed dispiriting to see a seemingly
    intelligent man turn himself into a moron as an act
    of will.”
    A heartbreaking experience, if you ask me. Simply a
    tragedy. You have no idea how hard it was to turn
    myself into a moron by a pure act of will. The
    whole enterprise took me several years.
    However, I can`t hear you anymore. I`m sleeping
    now.

    Reply

  107. Paul Norheim says:

    Belonging… My song… the Keith Jarrett quartet…
    I grew up with all of that myself as well (after Beatles, which I heard
    much of in Ethiopia in the early/mid seventies; Stevie Wonder; Pink
    Floyd; Genesis and Manfred Mann, Yes etc) from around 1977-78, and I`m
    very familiar with the ECM catalogue. The Köln Concert (Jarrett solo
    piano, 1975), Ralph Towner, Egberto Gismonti, Eberhard Weber… The
    group Oregon (with Towner, but mostly not connected to ECM)… And
    records like “Listen to the grey voice” by Jan Garbarek Group, with
    Weber, but also Bill Friesell… fabulous record…
    Once, I think I was 19, I remember helping Jon Christensen carrying some
    drums to the stage before a performance in a club in Oslo – around 1981.
    He was a god in my eyes… I also talked to Garbarek, asked him if he
    was ever going to play with Jarrett again. He said no.
    A small world…
    Norma Winstone? I`ve heard the name, but I`ll check her out tomorrow (I
    have to go to sleep now.) I think I`ve seen her mentioned in connection
    to Radka Toneff, right?

    Reply

  108. nadine says:

    Paul, it is indeed dispiriting to see a seemingly intelligent man turn himself into a moron as an act of will. You’ve got your hands over your ears and are shouting “lie! lie! lie!” when anybody tries to point out the facts of the modern Middle East.
    Okay, I give up. Iran is not a revolutionary regime, Hizbullah doesn’t exist, the Qods Forces don’t exist, no terror attacks have ever been ordered or funded by Iran, and unless Iran is sending in tank divisions it’s a “lie” to say they are invading any country. There is no connection between Iran and the insurgencies in Iran or Afghanistan. There is no connection between Iran and Hamas. Iran may not be very nice but you’ll show them who’s boss by frowning hard in their direction.
    There, you happy now? You can go back to your mutual intellectual congratulations now with your equally idiotic admirers.
    But remember this: I am not in range of Iran’s long range missiles, but you are. It is not by any law of nature that nobody has tried to invade Norway since the Nazis conquered it, though you seem to think so.

    Reply

  109. ... says:

    paul – very nice.. thanks! i’m sure wigwag would enjoy her singing.. i was able to listen to another recording of hers (sometime ago) that has some of the same songs as the one you mention…i hadn’t heard of her before but recognize some of the people she had played with.. Arild Andersen who she lived with for a number of years played with jan gabarek, terje rypdal and jon christensen, all musicians whose music i am very familiar with…jon is one of my favorite drummers, and i especially liked his and jan gabareks playing with the keith jarrett group from the 70’s.. i was very into ecm a record label that is out of germany and top notch in my view for being at the forefront of a certain type of jazz that captured my attention in many ways more then what was coming out of the usa during the same period..
    yes, i play music.. i have been doing some work on sibelius 6 a music program i use from time to time, and am taking little breaks by popping back here.. thanks for pointing her out to me.. have you heard of norma winstone? perhaps you and wigwag would enjoy her as well..
    http://www.amazon.com/Distances-Norma-Winstone/dp/B0012NON7U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1252220912&sr=1-1

    Reply

  110. PissedOffAmerican says:

    The beginning salvo, on this thread, of Nadine’s bullshit…
    1)”But now that Iran is going to get nukes…”
    Deceptive. There is no evidence that Iran is “going to get nukes”.
    2)”A wanted terrorist will have control of Iran’s nuclear bombs!”
    What “nuclear bombs”????
    3)”It’s only a hot topic for those who want another chance to attack Israel and whine how unfair it is to regard Iran’s nukes differently from Israel”
    Iran’s nukes ARE different from Israel’s, in the respect Iran doesn’t have nukes, nor is there any evidence they are working towards having them. (Just a minor glitch in Nadine’s defective reasoning and deceptive delivery)
    And this drooling idiot Kotz? Why do any of you respond to him with anything other than the incivility and disdain he has so earnestly earned? The guy probably becomes grossly orgasmic every time the media shows Cheney’s death’s head grin. The only redeeming quality Kotz has is the fact that he’s not corrupting the air or taking up space on this continent. One hopes the DHS is doing its job, and has him on a “no entry” list.

    Reply

  111. Paul Norheim says:


    You`re a listener, and perhaps also a performer of music?
    Right now, my translation is finished, and I`m having a beer and
    listening to a jazz record called “Fairytales”, by Radka Toneff.
    Just piano and vocal. I doubt that you`ve ever heard it.
    Give it a try, will you? And go tell Wigwag if you actually like
    it. It`s a wonderful record for calm and lazy Sundays.

    Reply

  112. ... says:

    did it again, lol.. proof reading is not one of my specialties…

    Reply

  113. ... says:

    paul, that probably has to do with the fact you are a professional writer… i do so many typos on blogs, i’ve come to accept them… if i was writing in some other context such as a book i would feel very differently.. i’m also aware that ”appearances” are all ‘some’ folks rely on, instead of actual”substance”.. i have always had an attitude towards those who value appearance over of substance, or think that somehow if the appearance isn’t right that it takes away from the content… i don’t share that view, but i know those who hold to it… people can and are fooled by ”’appearances”’ regularly…
    thanks for your comments.. sounds like a fascinating translation you are involved in! good luck with the deadline.. drop the *dead weight* from your mind while you’re here!

    Reply

  114. Paul Norheim says:

    Correction: I totally agree with WHAT you SAID…
    “I totally agree with you say” sounds genuinely Chinese to
    my ears…
    After commenting here for a couple of years, I somehow feel
    entitled to typos like everybody else commenting here –
    unrelated to my perpetual struggle with a foreign language.
    Still, it always annoys me when I realize what I`ve written.

    Reply

  115. Paul Norheim says:

    …,
    I totally agree with you say.
    It felt like a waste of time, and it was a waste of time.
    I felt stuck between discussing organ donations and this back and forth with Nadine,
    because no one seemed willing or capable of delivering a substantial contribution to the
    issue at hand.
    I should have watched a movie instead…
    On the other hand, since many days before this thread started, I`ve been busy working on
    a translation of a fascinating excerpt from a German novel, which I delivered to a
    literary magazine some hours ago, between the commenting here. The magazine will go to
    the printer on Monday, so I had a very strict deadline. I`ve been moving back and forth
    between this fascinating, well written, kind of experimental sci-fi text about a brave,
    female lizard warrior on Mars, and the lies of Nadine during the whole day and night. A
    strange experience – and, thinking about it, not a total waste after all…

    Reply

  116. ... says:

    >>Posted by Paul Norheim, Sep 05 2009, 8:20PM – Link
    “You argue that it’s not fair to prevent Iran from
    having nukes.”
    Could you please quote my “argument”, Nadine? Where
    did I say that?>Posted by nadine, Sep 05 2009, 10:14PM – Link
    So Paul, which are the lies?<<
    nadines lying goes on endlessly…. she claims paul said something he never said….she is unwilling to provide a quote for it, because it doesn’t exist… when paul points this out to her, she moves on to the next one as if none of her previous lies matter… they do…
    it’s foolish to try to point any of this out to her, as she’ll go on to create more while ignoring all the previous… one wastes their time having any kind of conversation with nadine… that much is very obvious here today…
    paul, thanks for taking her to task.. however, i think you’d be doing yourself a favour by moving on… she isn’t worth it…she’ll continue to spin her lies… she seems incapable of doing anything else…

    Reply

  117. Paul Norheim says:

    As I`ve repeated half a dozen times before, the
    “invasion” part of this quote:
    “Posted by nadine, Sep 05 2009, 6:17AM – Link
    (…) Iran is actively invading and torturing right
    NOW, both inside Iran and outside, a process which
    would be immeasurably improved with the threat of a
    nuclear weapon added in.”
    And this is my last word on this issue.

    Reply

  118. nadine says:

    “Then I confronted her with what she actually had said, pointing out that she was the one
    lying about France and England`s past actions and Iran`s current actions.”
    Which of Iran’s current actions am I lying about?

    Reply

  119. Paul Norheim says:

    So now you feel an urge to lecture me on intellectual integrity, Kotz?
    Someone stole cigarettes and chocolate in a shop the other day, and the shop owner
    shouted: – Hey, stop stealing from my shop. Then the police came and arrested the shop
    owner.
    Now, I`m not the shop owner in this case, because historical facts are not private, but
    public, common property. But do I have to remind you that it wasn`t me who stole the
    chocolate?
    It was actually Nadine who by herself claimed that England and France had not tortured
    nor invaded any countries since they acquired nuclear weapons; and that Iran, who many
    fear will acquire nuclear weapons in the future, are invading other countries right now.
    She did not back her claims, and have since acted as if she doesn`t understand why such
    frivolous manipulation with basic historical facts is something to make a fuzz about.
    This attitude makes it unacceptable to discuss “contemporary differences” with that
    particular commenter. If this makes my intellectual integrity more “sans” than “avec” in
    your eyes, I notice that this is how you interpret the case. Obviously I see this
    differently.
    I would actually be much more interested in discussing the topic of this thread, than
    arguing back and forth with Nadine, or discussing organ donations, so feel free to try
    getting us back on the track. Most people have avoided discussing the topic of this
    thread so far.

    Reply

  120. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “So Paul, which are the lies?”
    “That the Iranians are shooting demonstrators…”
    Ever heard of Tristan Anderson? Rachel Corrie?
    “…jailing political protesters…”
    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
    http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/stats/prisoners.html#source
    “That Ahmedinejad denies the Holocaust….”
    Liar. Provide us with a quote of him “denying the holocaust”.
    And your habit of talking about Iranian nukes, as if they exist, is also deceptive: “and how “unfair” it is that anybody should object to Iran’s nukes”. When the FACTS are that the IAEA has been completely unable to uncover ANY evidence of an Iranian nuclear WEAPONS program.
    Yes, Nadine, you’re a lying racist, and a bad one at that.
    “I don’t see France threatening to nuke anybody”
    Provide us with one single quote of an Iranian leader threatening to “nuke” Israel. The FACTS are that both Israel and the United States have made thinly veiled threats directed towards Iran, which have IMPLIED the threat of nuclear force by statements such as “all options on the table”.
    Have you already forgotten your comments denying the use of white phosphorous, denying severe hunger in Gaza, and denying Palestinians have been deprived of medical care?
    Somehow I doubt it. Bottom line, you’re a shameless liar, and you know it. You lie purposely, and poorly. So there’s two possibilities; You’re emotionally unstable, or you’re morally bankrupt. Or of course, there’s the third possibility; That you’re both of the above. Thats my bet.

    Reply

  121. kotzabasis says:

    Paul
    I made my position clear in regard to Clemons’ opening and to the nukes of Israel and of Iran in my first post in this thread. The amour propre has nothing to do in this context. It has to do with your intellectual escapism in unprincipled diversions since you are unable to deal with the nub of the question, as for example when Nadine speaks of the CONTEMPORARY differences between Iran and France you reply to this with the atrocities of Vietnam and British invasions. In your intellectual dalliance you are like an octogenarian who throws himself upon the intellectual maiden with hardly making an impact, to paraphrase Marcel Proust.
    You are “quite intelligent” but sans intellectual integrity.

    Reply

  122. Paul Norheim says:

    “So Paul, which are the lies?” (Nadine)
    Some of them are right here:
    “France and Britain have nukes. Have they tortured, invaded, etc? No. But Iran is
    actively invading and torturing right NOW, both inside Iran and outside (…)” (Nadine
    ————————————–
    I said that this was incorrect, that her statements about France, England and Iran were all
    factually wrong.
    Nadine`s response: “What lies? I am talking about the behavior of France vs. Iran TODAY”
    Then I confronted her with what she actually had said, pointing out that she was the one
    lying about France and England`s past actions and Iran`s current actions.
    And now, she responds:
    “I’m concentrating on the future here.”
    Why are you continuing this childish game, Nadine?

    Reply

  123. nadine says:

    So Paul, which are the lies? That the Iranians are shooting demonstrators, jailing political protesters and raping and abusing them? Is that a lie? That Ayatollah Yazdi says it’s legit? Is that a lie? That a terrorist wanted by Interpol is the new Defense Minister? Is that a lie? That Ahmedinejad denies the Holocaust and calls Israel a rotten corpse and says it should and will be removed from the map? Is that a lie too? What about the arms ship going from North Korea to Iran that the UAE just intercepted? Is that a lie too?
    Come on, which is the “lie,” the “propaganda”?
    Or is it all a “lie” because I didn’t take enough to flagellate France for war crimes in Algeria, nearly 50 years ago? Talk about a red herring. So everything I say is a lie if I don’t concentrate on YOUR area of comfort, the sins of European colonialism? Piss off, I’m telling the truth about Iran and you can’t even manage to deny it. You can only avert your eyes or come up with weak-kneed phrases about your “distrust” about the Iranian government. It’s not much of a distrust if you’re so complacent about their nuclear program.
    I’m concentrating on the future here. I don’t see France threatening to nuke anybody. The French Foreign Legion is not blowing up schools or community centers around the world. France is a democracy and democracies don’t need external enemies to stay in power the way deeply unpopular dictatorships do.

    Reply

  124. PissedOffAmerican says:

    The Best Congress AIPAC Can Buy
    September 2nd, 2009
    The Best Congress AIPAC Can Buy
    http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2009/09/02/the-best-congress-aipac-can-buy/
    Many Americans who thought that the health care debate was important must have wondered where their congressmen were in early August during the first two weeks of the House of Representatives recess. It turns out they were not hosting town hall meetings or listening to constituents because many of them were in Israel together with their spouses on a trip paid for by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Fully 13% of the entire US House of Representatives, 56 members, traveled to Israel in the largest AIPAC-sponsored fact-finding visit by American politicians ever conducted. And the leaders of the two congressional groups, 25 Republicans for a week starting on August 2nd followed by 31 Democrats beginning on August 13th, were drawn from the top ranks of their respective parties. House Minority whip Eric Cantor headed the Republican group and House Majority leader Steny Hoyer led the Democrats.
    Cantor and Hoyer are longtime enthusiasts for Israel and all its works. In January, when Israel was pounding Gaza to rubble and killing over a thousand civilians, Hoyer and Cantor wrote an op-ed entitled “A Defensive War,” which began with “During this difficult war in the Gaza Strip, we stand with Israel.” Why? Because “Instead of building roads, bridges, schools and industry, Hamas and other terrorists wasted millions turning Gaza into an armory.” Hoyer and Cantor, clearly noticing a militarization of the Gaza Strip that no else quite picked up on, also affirmed that Israel occupied the moral high ground in the conflict, “While Israel targets military combatants, Hamas aims to kill as many civilians as possible.” That Hoyer and Cantor were completely wrong on this vital point as well as others, in fact reversing the truth, has never resulted in an apology or a correction of the record from either lawmaker.
    And there’s more. In May 2009, Cantor and Hoyer teamed up again in a congressional letter sent to their colleagues in congress. The message described how Washington must be “both a trusted mediator and a devoted friend to Israel” because “Israel will be taking the greatest risks in any peace agreement.” AIPAC couldn’t have put it better. In fact, AIPAC wrote the missive since Cantor and Hoyer apparently needed a little help to get the message just right. The actual source of the letter was revealed when the document was circulated with the file name “AIPAC Letter Hoyer Cantor May 2009.pdf,” which the intrepid congressional duo had failed to change before sending out.
    continues………
    http://america-hijacked.com/2009/09/02/the-best-congress-aipac-can-buy/
    But, of course, AIPAC engages in organizing and paying for junkets, as well as actually writing the political correspondence of American politicians, knowing full well that such expenses and efforts return no dividends for Israel.
    Right, questions? Isn’t that your primary line of bullshit?

    Reply

  125. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Nadine is just too ignorant, and too dishonest, to recognize that Israel has become its own worst enemy.
    http://peacenow.org/entries/new_op-ed_in_washington_jewish_week_the_west-bankization_of_israel
    The ‘West-Bankization’ of Israel?
    By Ori Nir on August 13, 2009
    From Washington Jewish Weekly
    August 12 2009
    By Ori Nir
    Israelis were recently appalled by reports of sadistic hazing in the Israel Defense Forces’ tank corps. Israeli newspapers uncovered routine patterns of beating, lashing, severe humiliation and other forms of brutal behavior toward new recruits.
    But it seems that few were truly surprised. In the eyes of many, the story was depicted as one more expression of the growing brutalization of the IDF and of Israeli society. Hardly a day goes by without a murder, a road-rage related stabbing, a heartbreaking case of domestic violence, a Mafia-style drive-by shooting or an incident of teen violence.
    “You have to be blind not to notice that our domestic security situation has long since spiraled out of control,” Ha’aretz’s leading columnist Yoel Marcus recently wrote.
    It would be a colossal stretch to argue that the occupation is exclusively responsible for this ugly wave of brutality and hatred. But it would be equally irresponsible to ignore the impact of the brutal behavior of Israelis across the Green Line on what is happening inside Israel. What happens in Nablus and Hebron doesn’t stay there.
    In February 1988, as a reporter covering the West Bank, I witnessed a group of Israeli soldiers beating an unarmed Palestinian teenager with clubs just north of Hebron. Moments earlier, the soldiers ‹ against IDF regulations ‹ were hurling tear-gas canisters into a home in which frightened Palestinian women and children were huddled. This conduct ‹ bone-breaking blows and overzealous use of tear gas and rubber bullets ‹ was all too commonplace in the West Bank and Gaza at that time, the first weeks of the first Intifada.
    I had a short, tense conversation with the commander of the soldiers, who was eager to get rid of me and a fellow journalist. Before leaving, I stuck a business card in his hand. Months later, shortly after he finished his military service, the commander phoned me and asked to meet.
    He was confused and embarrassed. He explained that the mere power you have often drives you to exercise it in ways that you know are wrong. “You do it because you can,” he said. And that frightened him. He was scared of telling people what he and his soldiers did because of what it would say about him and about the IDF, he said. He was alarmed by how easy it was to let your violent urges take over. What if it happens to me in civilian life? he wondered.
    Well, it did. Maybe not to him personally, but on the national, collective level, anti-Palestinian brutality did cross the Green Line. You can see it in the way law enforcement officers used force against Israeli civilians. Example: in Umm al-Fahm and Nazareth, in October 2000, Israeli police snipers shot and killed stone-throwing Arab citizens of Israel, who demonstrated in solidarity with their Palestinian brethren. Israeli police had never before used lethal sniper-fire to control demonstrating crowds.
    The practice was “imported” from the IDF’s playbook for controlling Palestinian demonstrators in the West Bank and Gaza. An Israeli civil rights activist once called it the “West Bankization” of Israeli law enforcement officers’ conduct.
    But the trend certainly didn’t end there. Israeli sociologists and journalists have documented during the past two decades the lingering impact on Israeli society of the IDF’s aggressive behavior in the West Bank and Gaza. It’s obvious. It’s even natural. Israelis are aware of it, at least at a certain level. But many Israelis, refusing to come to terms with the IDF’s actions across the Green Line, have built a wall of suppression and denial to block it out.
    And when the courageous, patriotic Israeli soldiers of Breaking the Silence try to tear down that wall by talking about what they saw, and did in the West Bank and Gaza, Israel’s government launches a campaign to dry up their funding and to intimidate them, as it has been doing in the past few weeks.
    The occupation burdens Israel politically, economically and militarily. It is also a heavy moral liability. Exercising power, as a military occupier, over a civilian population leaves deep, violent scars in the minds of young Israelis. It conditions them to solving problems by force. It contributes to the brutalization of Israeli society. It’s yet another reason to redouble the efforts to seek peace and pursue it.
    Ori Nir, the spokesperson of Americans for Peace Now, previously covered Palestinian affairs for the Israeli daily Ha’aretz.

    Reply

  126. Paul Norheim says:

    “I get it, the Iranians are just fine, and if they aren’t, it is somebody else’s
    fault.” (Nadine)
    I have a deep contempt for, and distrust in several crucial aspects of the Iranian
    government and current leadership, as well as the theocratic principle as such,
    articulated in their constitution. And don`t get me started about this Ahemdinejad
    fellow. But I don`t want to discuss these issues with someone who produces lies and
    propaganda nonstop. I prefer to get the facts straight first.
    And you`re not willing to accept certain elementary facts relevant to this issue.

    Reply

  127. PissedOffAmerican says:

    http://original.antiwar.com/cook/2009/09/04/the-missing-link-in-palestinian-organ-theft/
    An Excerpt……..
    Equally disturbing, the doctor behind the plunder of body parts, Prof. Yehuda Hiss, appointed director of the Abu Kabir institute in the late 1980s, has never been jailed despite admitting to the organ theft and he continues to be the state’s chief pathologist at the institute.
    Hiss was in charge of the autopsies of Palestinians when Bostrom was listening to the families’ claims in 1992. Hiss was subsequently investigated twice, in 2002 and 2005, over the theft of body parts on a large scale.
    Allegations of Hiss’ illegal trade in organs was first revealed in 2000 by investigative reporters at the Yediot Aharonot newspaper, which reported that he had “price listings” for body parts and that he sold mainly to Israeli universities and medical schools.
    Apparently undeterred by these revelations, Hiss still had an array of body parts in his possession at Abu Kabir when the Israeli courts ordered a search in 2002. Israel National News reported at the time: “Over the past years, heads of the institute appear to have given thousands of organs for research without permission, while maintaining a ’storehouse’ of organs at Abu Kabir.”
    Hiss did not deny the plunder of organs, admitting that the body parts belonged to soldiers killed in action and had been passed to medical institutes and hospitals in the interests of advancing research. Understandably, however, the Palestinian families are unlikely to be satisfied with Hiss’ explanation. If the wishes of a soldier’s family were disregarded by Hiss, why not Palestinian families’ wishes too?
    Hiss was allowed to continue as director of Abu Kabir until 2005 when allegations of a trade in organs surfaced again. On this occasion Hiss admitted to having removed parts from 125 bodies without authorization. Following a plea bargain with the state, the attorney general decided not to press criminal charges and Hiss was given only a reprimand. He has continued as chief pathologist at Abu Kabir.
    It should also be noted, as Bostrom points out, that in the early 1990s Israel was suffering from an acute shortage of organ donors to the extent that Ehud Olmert, health minister at the time, launched a public campaign to encourage Israelis to come forward.
    This offers a possible explanation for Hiss’ actions. He may have acted to help make up the shortfall.
    Given the facts that are known, there must be at least a very strong suspicion that Hiss removed organs without authorization from some Palestinians he autopsied. Both this issue, and the army’s possible role in supplying him with corpses, needs investigation.
    Hiss is also implicated in another long-running and unresolved scandal from Israel’s early years, in the 1950s, when the children of recent Jewish immigrants to Israel from Yemen were adopted by Ashkenazi couples after the Yemenite parents had been told that their child had died, usually after admission to hospital.

    Reply

  128. nadine says:

    “Nadine attempted to paint a rosy picture of some
    European nuclear powers (England and France), with
    the aim of making it easier to demonize Iran.”
    How hard does one have to work to “demonize” a country whose spiritual leaders announce that is is legal to rape and abuse political prisoners? How hard does one have to work to “demonize” a country that makes a terrorist who master-minded bombing a Jewish community center in Argentina Defense Minister?
    Not hard at all, if you are rational. But if you are a leftist who has worked hard to believe that all countries and all wars are the same everywhere except for the Europeans/US/Israel who are uniquely sinful, their sins alone being visible, then it’s impossible.
    I get it, the Iranians are just fine, and if they aren’t, it is somebody else’s fault. They don’t have nukes, except it’s fine for them to have nukes, and whatever they plan to do with them, nobody can anticipate that or criticize. That would be a “double standard.” Can’t have that.
    The policy of someone who has never even had to think about self-defense, who can scold others from safety, and preen himself about how clean his own hands are.

    Reply

  129. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Nadine….
    Why are you here, if not to derail debate and irritate the shit out of us? Repeatedly you offer known and obvious lies, that no one with even a moderate awareness or body of knowledge believes. You aren’t doing this out of conviction or a lack of knowledge. You are purposely lying with full knowledge of it.
    To what end, you obnoxious jenny? Why? It is obviously not grounded in an effort to inform or enlighten. It is obviously not an effort to gain knowledge. And if it is an effort to sow propaganda, it is failing miserably by your prolific use of blatant and ridiculous untruths.
    So just what the hell do you expect to accomplish here with your incessant bullshit? It is obvious your motives aren’t altruistic or constructive, so what perverse purpose is your sick little mind convincing you lies at the end of your efforts?
    You aren’t doing anyone any favors, Nadine. And like I said before, those with a sympathetic or supportive inclination towards Israel would be well served to strongly suggest you put a cork in it.

    Reply

  130. Paul Norheim says:

    “You argue that it’s not fair to prevent Iran from
    having nukes.”
    Could you please quote my “argument”, Nadine? Where
    did I say that? My “argument” on this thread have
    consistently been: let`s get the facts on the table
    before we start arguing, assuming, demonizing etc.
    And I have commented on the double standard. That`s
    about it so far.
    I can even back up what I say right now with
    proves. Facts first – that`s been my line.

    Reply

  131. Paul Norheim says:

    “Iran has already threatened to nuke Israel”
    I frequently threaten Sweden in similar phrases, Nadine, but neither I nor Iran possess
    nukes. Could you please proved some facts supporting your claim?
    “Iran’s track record, which you wish to avoid discussing by throwing up red herrings
    about France, is godawful.”
    As I`ve documented above, it was you who brought up France and England, not me:
    —————————————–
    Posted by nadine, Sep 05 2009, 6:17AM – Link
    (…)
    France and Britain have nukes. Have they tortured, invaded, etc? No. But Iran is
    actively invading and torturing right NOW, both inside Iran and outside (…)

    Reply

  132. Paul Norheim says:

    To put it in context:
    Nadine attempted to paint a rosy picture of some
    European nuclear powers (England and France), with
    the aim of making it easier to demonize Iran.
    That`s the propagandistic aspect of her
    manipulations.

    Reply

  133. nadine says:

    Paul, repeating your lame arguments doesn’t make them any more logical. You argue that it’s not fair to prevent Iran from having nukes. Either Iran’s track record matters or it does not. Iran’s track record, which you wish to avoid discussing by throwing up red herrings about France, is godawful. France at least has possessed nuclear weapons for fifty years without nuking anybody or threatening to. Iran has already threatened to nuke Israel, and their total disregard for the lives of their own people, let alone the lives of Arabs or the hated Jews, makes their threats credible. If you don’t want to believe Israel on this one, ask Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

    Reply

  134. Neo Controll says:

    Nadine: ” . . .you start blathering about Vietnam. That was over 50 years ago”
    Try maybe 30-33 Lies is lies.
    Nadine is toxic and should be ignored. Mea Culpa. She is obviously prepped on the big lie.
    –NCHQ

    Reply

  135. Paul Norheim says:

    Nadine,
    an unwritten rule with regards to intellectual
    honesty is NOT TO DISPUTE WELL DOCUMENTED OR
    PROVEN FACTS unless you can provide good arguments
    or credible documents challenging these facts.
    After accepting certain facts, you may interpret
    them etc. But if you manipulate whimsically with
    facts, you open up for anyone to deny anything
    that is documented as historical facts.
    You can“t just say that Holocaust happened, but
    the Falkland invasion in the 1980`s or the torture
    in Algerie in the 1960`s didn`t take place, just
    because these facts seem unconvenient to you.
    Very few people here respect you now, mainly due
    to your complete disrespect for truth and
    documented facts. Your tendency to claim
    something, and then hours later deny that you said
    it, is also astonishing.
    You may perhaps get away with this kind of foolish
    behavior in your private family, but not here,
    Nadine. We don`t accept it.

    Reply

  136. Paul Norheim says:

    Nadine said: “What lies? I am talking about the behavior of France vs. Iran TODAY,
    and you start blathering about Vietnam. That was over 50 years ago. Why not add in
    the campaigns of Napoleon while you’re at it?”
    Nadine, let me provide the context of our argument (everything is quoted from
    exchanges above on this thread, for all to see) – I`ll not let you escape so
    easily:
    —————————————————-
    Posted by Paul Norheim, Sep 05 2009, 1:45AM – Link
    (…)
    1) how many times Israel has attacked a neighboring country during the last four
    or five decades?
    2) how many times Iran has attacked a neighboring country during the same time
    span?
    3) How many times USA has attacked a country in the Middle East or close to Iran
    during the same time span? —————-etc, etc
    —————————————————————-
    Posted by Paul Norheim, Sep 05 2009, 4:00AM – Link
    (…)
    No other country than ours can be allowed to have nukes, to torture, to invade, to
    slaughter, to create mayhem, to starve their enemies, deny them medicines, water,
    sanitation. It`s a privilege given by God to the civilized word, and not to the
    barbarians and the fanatics on the planet.
    ——————————————————–
    Posted by nadine, Sep 05 2009, 6:17AM – Link
    Paul, now you playing word games. (…)
    France and Britain have nukes. Have they tortured, invaded, etc? No. But Iran is
    actively invading and torturing right NOW, both inside Iran and outside (…)
    ——————————————————————–
    Posted by Paul Norheim, Sep 05 2009, 7:37AM – Link
    (…)
    Nadine, ever heard about, let`s say Algerie or Vietnam (look up “French
    torture”), the Falkland Islands (look up “British invasions”)?
    Or are you perhaps writing all this crap from one of those places that Iran
    is actively invading “right now”?
    ———————————————————————————
    Nadine, you explicitly asked above: “Have they (e.g. France/England)tortured,
    invaded, etc? No. But Iran is actively invading and torturing right NOW”
    And now, some hours later, you try to escape your former statements by saying:
    “What lies? I am talking about the behavior of France vs. Iran TODAY”
    Nice try.

    Reply

  137. nadine says:

    Kathleen, Carroll refers to the Jews as a “cannibal zionist tribe” who should be made “extinct” and yet you regard her as a good source of information? Consider the levels of overt anti-semitism you have become inured to – and yes, whatever line separates legitimate criticism of Israel’s government from open anti-semitism, Carroll crossed it long ago. Saying Zionist Jews should all die is not criticism of Israeli government policy.
    As for the black market in organ donation, I really don’t know if it affects Israel more than other places. The demand is more than the supply everywhere, and whenever you don’t allow a market to operate you will get a black market. The lower donation rate in Israel must be more cultural than religous, since 80% of Israel Jews are secular, and religious law is okay with organ donation. That was what the ruling that Carroll posted said (ironically, I doubt she noticed): that while it is forbidden to desecrate a dead body, you can make an exception if it is the case of “pikuach nefesh,” to save a life.

    Reply

  138. nadine says:

    “Nadine, I`m actually quite intelligent and informed. So are you. So please don`t treat me like a child. ”
    Then don’t argue like one.
    “You know very well that I didn`t at any time compare the diplomatic track record of France versus Iran, any more than I compared French
    paintings to Iranian paintings.”
    Of course you do, every time you object to treating the prospect of Iran’s nukes differently from French, British or Israeli nukes. If it’s “okay” for Iran to join the club, it must be a legitimate member, not a rogue. That speaks to track record – or else to the belief that everybody is legitimate, regardless of record. It’s one or the other. If the first, you are being disingenuous to say that you are not comparing diplomatic track records. If the second, then you really are arguing that foreign policy must play “fair” like a kindergarten, and are being infantile.
    “I simply addressed your lies with regard to France`s TORTURE track record and England`s INVASION track record, as well as your fantasy that Iran is invading someone right now. I just wanted to get the basic facts right before we started making assumptions and interpretations.”
    What lies? I am talking about the behavior of France vs. Iran TODAY, and you start blathering about Vietnam. That was over 50 years ago. Why not add in the campaigns of Napoleon while you’re at it? You have just given a demonstration of what the Left means by a “lie”: any fact they don’t like and want to delegitimize.
    Iran is running terrorist campaigns all over the Mideast (plus Argentina), via Hizbullah and the Qods Force, and has been doing this since the 1980s. That is no fantasy, and the list of attacks and car-bombed opposition politicians is a long one and involves many countries. Just because the mullahs Iran are using terrorists instead of tank divisions does not mean it isn’t happening. Now they have ramped up their oppression of their own populace, whose low opinion of them was shown in the massive post-election demonstrations. They have shot hundreds, and are raping and abusing thousands of prisoners. Did you know that Ayatollah Yahzdi, Ahmedinejad’s ally and spiritual mentor, has told his followers that it is lawful to rape prisoners of both sexes? And now a wanted Qods Force terrorist is Iran’s Defense Minister.
    And yet not a peep of protest from you and other soi-disant “defenders of human rights”. You’d rather talk about the “hot issue” of Israel’s nukes. Since the only new development is Iran’s nukes, not Israel’s, what purpose can the whole discussion possibly have except to throw up a protective shield for Iran’s nuclear program?

    Reply

  139. Paul Norheim says:

    Oops…
    I intended to write something on the Israel/Iran nuclear issue, but realize
    that I got lost, ending up in the organ donor thread instead.
    Sorry folks! I`ll try again.

    Reply

  140. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    Wigwag..If Israel’s nukes are not a hot topic, they damned well should be…at least as hot as Iran’s imaginary nukes….Despite what the UNIAEA has said about Iran’s non-weapons nuclear activities, and the fact that Iran has permitted UN Inspectors into their country to inspect their nuclear works, nuclear Israel wants to bomb them to prevent Iran from having what they have.
    Nadine…I prefaced the link with a mention of the recent news of blackmarket traffic in organs in Israel and the fact that organ donations rate is very low in Israel, I wondered what Israelis would think of such a policy, given the reluctance to donate. I personally have a big problem with presumed consent.
    The connection to the main topic for me is a policy stance/undercurrent of “it’s okay if we have something, anyway we can get it, but not if you do.”
    Carroll…thanks for the additional info..I have some reading to do.. I wondered if there was a religious proscription against organ donation, but I would think it would not be okay to receive one as well.
    I’ve heard so much grisly testimony at rhe UN Commsssion for Human Rights about the worldwide blackmarket sales of live organs, especially childrens’, that I asked my children, as a Mother’s Day gift one year, to remove their organ donor designation from their driver’s license because I didn’t want them to be allowed to die at some accident.. so their organs could be “harvested”…It happens all over the world. Greed is a very powerful force and I just didn’t want my kids to be viewed as a “money in the bank, walking root cellar”, if you will. In our family, we all know how we feel about it and have taken the steps to make it legally possible for a family member to give permission . AFTER death, not before. Presumed consent is too damned presumptuous for me and it wouldn’t take a giant leap to get from presumed consent harvesting to pulling the plug at just the right time.
    POA..thanks for reminding us that not all Jews are Zioinists and some Israelis oppose their gov’t the same way we do and suffer a lot of derision in the process from both sides, as they are swept into generalized categories. I think it’s important to keep mentioning this because what has to be said about Israeli policy is best said by them, so I’m grateful when readers post links to articles by Israelis opposing their gov’t because I think they are the best informed about the stuff on the ground.
    Pauline…hmmmmm..that would be a switch from the Mafia did it motiff…
    Now that Darth has come back from the dead to direct the Bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran chant, I’m knaming him…Count Darthula.
    I have to read more comments guys…re-read some too, but Steve is right, it is a special little club of those we “trust”, based on our selective inattention to the facts and a rule of thumb that requires that our version of reality prevails, kind of like Skull& Bones or Sigma Alpha Ooopsilon.

    Reply

  141. Outraged American says:

    easy e is Steve. Have you ever seen them in the same picture?
    I’ve interviewed this guy, he’s very credible in my opinion. He’s
    written some good books:
    The Missing Link in Palestinian Organ Theft
    The autopsy surgeon Aftonbladet forgot
    http://tinyurl.com/lp64fx
    But this made my day. I’m starting a novena. And then for one
    for Dick to get shot in the face by a “hunting partner.” Hail Mary
    full of grace…
    Could George W. Bush end up behind bars?
    http://tinyurl.com/lj4wrk
    h/t antiwar.com
    And this one, reminding us how truly stupid “defensive alliances”
    are — we do not have a Senate ratified defense treaty with
    Israel, BY ISRAEL’S CHOICE, but will probably launch WW III
    because of her. Why is NATO still around again?
    Did Hitler Want War?
    http://tinyurl.com/l3x4cj
    h/t informationclearinghouse — one of the best news sites.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

    Reply

  142. Paul Norheim says:

    …,
    if I had an anti-zionist agenda, I would certainly
    hire Nadine to write on informed blogs with a high
    average IQ. She`s a loose cannon blessed with
    chutzpah.

    Reply

  143. ... says:

    who in their right mind would hire her???? oh wait! i think i know!!

    Reply

  144. Paul Norheim says:

    And POA,
    with reference to our previous discussion, I was
    wrong. Nadine is obviously indoctrinated AND a
    liar. A clumsy amateur, regardless of whether she`s
    employed to write here or not.

    Reply

  145. Paul Norheim says:

    “Paul, are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between France and
    Iran in their diplomatic track record or their foreign policy intentions? Therefore
    it’s not “fair” to deny to one what is permitted to the other?
    This is beyond infantile. To believe such nonsense, you have to actively work at
    ignoring the facts and making yourself stupid.”
    —————————————
    Nadine, I`m actually quite intelligent and informed. So are you. So please don`t
    treat me like a child. You know very well that I didn`t at any time compare the
    diplomatic track record of France versus Iran, any more than I compared French
    paintings to Iranian paintings.
    I simply addressed your lies with regard to France`s TORTURE track record and
    England`s INVASION track record, as well as your fantasy that Iran is invading
    someone right now. I just wanted to get the basic facts right before we started
    making assumptions and interpretations.
    Nadine, your tactics are abominable. I catch you in a lie; you respond by inventing
    an unrelated statement that you claim comes from me, and then you accuse me of being
    “infantile” based on statements you pretend are mine.
    Obviously you think that you can talk your way out of any elementary facts if
    confronted with them. And Wigwag and Kotz may think that your behavior is adorable
    and charming. I don`t.

    Reply

  146. Paul Norheim says:

    Steve Clemons initiated this post by the following statement: “The way that the
    nuclear weapons world works today is that if you are “trusted” by the US and Europe –
    – you can overtly or covertly hold on to your nukes, particularly if a nation is not
    part of the non-proliferation regime.
    But if you aren’t trusted, you can’t have them under any circumstances.”
    Wigwag`s reply: “Does Steve Clemons really think Israel’s nuclear arsenal is a “hot
    topic?” Maybe amongst the intellectually infirm or the chronically bored, but for
    just about anyone else this post is laughably irrelevant.”
    Kotzabasis: “You are in dearth of any amour propre.”
    Questions: “It’s an entertaining, readable book with an interesting take on getting
    people to do things that are clearly in their interests: saving for the future,
    eating well, and yes, even donating organs…”
    Nadine: “Yes, I’m sure there is a more nuanced discussion to be had on persuading
    people to make better decisions all around. However, that is not what Sunstein is
    proposing. He is proposing an ‘opt-out’ policy for organ donation. (…) This
    argument is part of a deep philosophical difference: do liberties come from God or
    the government?”

    Reply

  147. pauline says:

    I’ve read most of the Michael Collins Piper offerings and in previous posts on TWN, I was verbally castigated each time for even bringing up Piper’s name.
    Here’s an Amazon reader’s review from 2000. Note his place of residency in 2000. This review is from, “Final Judgment: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy”.
    “Israeli State Terrorism Exposed – An Amazing Book”, September 5, 2000
    By David L. Rubinstein (Tel Aviv , Israel)
    “A landmark book for modern American history that should be on the bookshelf of every serious historian as well as every single concerned American. Let me give my reasons. This book is an extraordinary feat of investigative journalism. The information and facts that Piper uncovers are used in an extremely powerful way to reveal a whole sequence of Israeli/Jewish actions culminating in the assassination of JFK (who was an implacable opponent of the Israeli nuclear weapons program of the early 1960’s and 1950’s).
    “The depth and thoroughness of Piper’s investigative journalism literally takes one’s breath away. At the same time the book is very easy to follow and understand as Piper methodically builds up his damning case against showing the depth of Israeli involvement in the JFK assassination.
    “Once I started reading this book I could literally not stop until I had finished. I thoroughly recommend this book as a way to expand one’s mind beyond the confines of the modern day media which has severely suppressed this book making it almost a taboo for mainstream booksellers to stock it. This is shown by the fact that it takes Amazon.com 4 to 6 weeks to obtain a copy.
    “As an Israeli/American peace activist I welcome this book . This book is especially topical today as the search for peace in the Middle East continues. As Israelis as well international Jews who care about our country I believe it right and proper to engage in an informed and vigorous debate about the undoubted wrong-doings of our government in an open and informed way. This is the only way in which the worst excesses of Zionism can be curbed. This book provides us all with just such an opportunity.”

    Reply

  148. nadine says:

    Paul, are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between France and Iran in their diplomatic track record or their foreign policy intentions? Therefore it’s not “fair” to deny to one what is permitted to the other?
    This is beyond infantile. To believe such nonsense, you have to actively work at ignoring the facts and making yourself stupid. “I have to see the world as a five year’s kindergarten, where everybody is just the same and life must be fair.”
    Why don’t you try talking to a few Saudis and ask them if French nukes and Iranian nukes are just the same?
    Trying answering your list of questions for France vs Iran first. Maybe you can mail yourself a clue.

    Reply

  149. nadine says:

    “It’s an entertaining, readable book with an interesting take on getting people to do things that are clearly in their interests: saving for the future, eating well, and yes, even donating organs (since you never know when you or a family member might need one and it’s better to have donations than to have to, umm, take them from Palestinian victims or whatever (I REALLY don’t know what to make of this one!))”
    Yes, I’m sure there is a more nuanced discussion to be had on persuading people to make better decisions all around. However, that is not what Sunstein is proposing. He is proposing an ‘opt-out’ policy for organ donation.
    To suggest this policy shows the underlying assumption that the government has the right to control the bodies of the dead for what it deems the ‘common good’ but will allow people to be selfish and refuse. For the moment. Maybe they will change their minds later.
    This argument is part of a deep philosophical difference: do liberties come from God or the government? Nanny state proponents like Sunstein are definitely in the ‘government’ camp.

    Reply

  150. Paul Norheim says:

    Questions,
    I would rather say that your predictability is legendary.
    Just joking.
    P.S. If you din`t get it: you should really read up on Bergson :)

    Reply

  151. PissedOffAmerican says:

    I gringe everytime I see the term “Jews” entered into the debate, as it fuels the timeworn accusation of “anti-semitism”. Zionism is a bloody and racist ideology, that not all “Jews” subscribe to.
    It will be a tragedy if “Jews” are blamed for the coming catastrophe that zionists are going to inflict on mankind should they succeed in starting World War Three, which they seem intent to do.
    I understand the premise of Israel’s “right to exist”. But I also understand that mankind might be better served if it didn’t exist. (At least in its present dangerously racist, violent, expansionist, and aggressive state). And “Jews” would be well advised to deny their best interests are served by being represented by the radical zealotry of the Zionist movement, particularly in its present state. Rather than countering anti-semitism, the leaders of Israel are nurturing it, sowing its seeds. Nadine efficiently undescores this premise, on a minor scale.

    Reply

  152. questions says:

    Paul, your powers of prognostication are legendary.

    Reply

  153. Carroll says:

    Has anyone ever heard of a military force taking dead enemy bodies to do autopsy on them?
    Never heard of such a thing.
    Why would they?
    And why would they take some bodies and not all?
    This is why this story seems to have legs to me.
    What could possibly be the purpose of doing an autopsy on a dead enemy with obvious bullet holes or his head blown off?
    Unless they culled out and took only the dead bodies that might have some organ left undamaged that they could use.
    There could be no other logical reason.
    http://original.antiwar.com/cook/2009/09/04/the-missing-link-in-palestinian-organ-theft/
    In 1992, the year in question, Bostrom says, the Israeli army admitted to him that it took away for autopsy 69 of the 133 Palestinians who died of unnatural causes. The army has not denied this part of his report.
    A justifiable question from the families relayed by Bostrom is: why did the army want the autopsies carried out? Unless it can be shown that the army intended to conduct investigations into the deaths – and there is apparently no suggestion that it did – the autopsies were unnecessary.
    Of even greater concern for the Palestinian families is the fact that at around the time the bodies of their loved ones were whisked off by the army for autopsy, the only institute in Israel that conducts such autopsies, Abu Kabir, near Tel Aviv, was almost certainly at the center of a trade in organs that later became a scandal inside Israel.
    Equally disturbing, the doctor behind the plunder of body parts, Prof. Yehuda Hiss, appointed director of the Abu Kabir institute in the late 1980s, has never been jailed despite admitting to the organ theft and he continues to be the state’s chief pathologist at the institute.
    Hiss was in charge of the autopsies of Palestinians when Bostrom was listening to the families’ claims in 1992. Hiss was subsequently investigated twice, in 2002 and 2005, over the theft of body parts on a large scale.
    Allegations of Hiss’ illegal trade in organs was first revealed in 2000 by investigative reporters at the Yediot Aharonot newspaper, which reported that he had “price listings” for body parts and that he sold mainly to Israeli universities and medical schools.
    Apparently undeterred by these revelations, Hiss still had an array of body parts in his possession at Abu Kabir when the Israeli courts ordered a search in 2002. Israel National News reported at the time: “Over the past years, heads of the institute appear to have given thousands of organs for research without permission, while maintaining a ’storehouse’ of organs at Abu Kabir.”
    Hiss did not deny the plunder of organs, admitting that the body parts belonged to soldiers killed in action and had been passed to medical institutes and hospitals in the interests of advancing research. Understandably, however, the Palestinian families are unlikely to be satisfied with Hiss’ explanation. If the wishes of a soldier’s family were disregarded by Hiss, why not Palestinian families’ wishes too?
    Hiss was allowed to continue as director of Abu Kabir until 2005 when allegations of a trade in organs surfaced again. On this occasion Hiss admitted to having removed parts from 125 bodies without authorization. Following a plea bargain with the state, the attorney general decided not to press criminal charges and Hiss was given only a reprimand. He has continued as chief pathologist at Abu Kabir.
    It should also be noted, as Bostrom points out, that in the early 1990s Israel was suffering
    from an acute shortage of organ donors to the extent that Ehud Olmert, health minister at the time, launched a public campaign to encourage Israelis to come forward.
    This offers a possible explanation for Hiss’ actions. He may have acted to help make up the shortfall.
    Given the facts that are known, there must be at least a very strong suspicion that Hiss removed organs without authorization from some Palestinians he autopsied. Both this issue, and the army’s possible role in supplying him with corpses, needs investigation.
    Hiss is also implicated in another long-running and unresolved scandal from Israel’s early years, in the 1950s, when the children of recent Jewish immigrants to Israel from Yemen were adopted by Ashkenazi couples after the Yemenite parents had been told that their child had died, usually after admission to hospital. ”
    Nadine’s zionist cannibal tribe identity definitely doesn’t need to be ‘preserved’..it needs to become extinct like the other cannibals.

    Reply

  154. Paul Norheim says:

    …,
    thanks for the link you provided above – about the
    increasing moral and political division between
    Israelis and Jews in America and elsewhere. I
    highly recommend this article to every commenter
    and reader of TWN.

    Reply

  155. Paul Norheim says:

    …,
    apropos desperation, playing games, and the “cognitive cul-de-sac” of a commenter
    (moi) when discussing the Israeli nuclear arsenal and double standards, I find it
    rather amusing that Kotz prefers to talk about one of his opponents` regrettable
    lack of “amour propre”, while Nadine suddenly accuses Iran of actively invading
    someone, “both inside Iran and outside RIGHT NOW.”
    I also notice that Questions chimed in against Nadine, as predicted, and that
    Wigwag so far does his best to pretend that the issue is “laughably irrelevant.”

    Reply

  156. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Netanyahu Tests Obama, Approves Hundreds of New West Bank Units
    New Construction Approved Ahead of Widely Expected “Freeze” in New Approvals
    by Jason Ditz, September 04, 2009
    With several recent comments suggesting Israel may be just weeks from formally announcing a 6-9 month “freeze” in new construction in the West Bank, Israeli officials are confirming tonight that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is poised to authorize hundreds of new housing units across settlements in the West Bank, a serious test to the Obama Administration’s repeated demands to stop.
    The White House expressed “regret” over the announcement but then went on to praise Israel’s “stated intent to place limits on settlement activity” and to vow that “the US commitment to Israel’s security is and will remain unshakeable.”
    The Israeli government’s move is likely at least as much about placating its own hawkish coalition partners’ anger about the prospect of a pause in growth in the settlements as it is about testing the Obama Administration’s apparent 180 on its demands to halt all construction.
    It was only last week that President Obama had backed off of materially all the demands it had made to Israel regarding the settlements, in return for a promise to eventually approve a short term pause in new construction: initially reported as “up to a year” but now apparently between six and nine months. Today’s reaction from the White House certainly suggests this position has not changed.
    http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/04/netanyahu-tests-obama-approves-hundreds-of-new-west-bank-units/
    In a recent past post, Dan Kervick had a major snit because I challenged his optimism about Obama’s courage to stand up to Israel. I commented that in the near future I would be saying to Dan “I told you so”, and Dan launched into a condescending tirade about how my posting was “embarrassing”.
    Well Dan, I’ve got something to say to you;
    I TOLD YOU SO.
    That said, who can possibly imagine Obama standing up to Israel about its nuclear arsenal? Look how ineffectual and tepid this charade about the settlements has been. To institute such diplomatic courage, Obama would not only need to confront Israel’s arrogance head on and publically, but he would have to deal with the mutinous behind the scenes wrangling of the whores for Israel in his own party, such as Reid and Hoyer, and very likely Clinton, whose “diplomatic” statements thus far regarding Iran appear to be scripted in Tel Aviv rather than the White House.
    There is simply no way the Israeli nukes will become a bargaining chip to stop Iran’s nuclear designs. And it doesn’t matter what the TRUTH is behind Iran’s nuclear pursuits, because our own government, and Israel, will simply LIE, forge documents, discredit the IAEA, or use any other nefarious means to justify stringent sanctions, or military action. In the past here, I have pointed out BLATANT falsehoods regularly posted on the AIPAC website about Iran’s nuclear program. The truth means NOTHING to our leaders, or to Israel. And the undeniable propaganda and deciet that was used by the Bush Administration to involve us in Iraq has gone unpunished and largely unexposed by the MSM, so it has actually lubricated and enabled the further use of propaganda and deception to drive this nation towards further war.
    This parasitic nation of Israel is draining the United States of its life’s blood and its soul, which was our moral high ground in the global community. These last two decades have exposed the corrosive and debillitating destructiveness of the unholy alliance between our two nations.
    Debate about this is futile. The die is already cast by the propagandists and war mongers in Israel and Washington, who push us closer and closer to the brink. There will come a day when mankind will rue its failure to rein in the Israeli and American monsters shaping events in the middle east. We all are going to pay a very steep price.

    Reply

  157. ... says:

    paul, thanks for framing those questions.. i notice how nadine and kotz have had to find an alternative to answering them, with both of them coming up with an empty response worthy of the garbage… too bad they can’t see just how vacuous there position has always been on this topic.. the best nadine could do was to come up with was ”’proxy”’using the tried and true game of words that she goes on to accuse you of… to quote her: “”Paul, now you playing word games.””
    if ever there was an example of playing games, not just word games, it is this: claim another country is involved in ”proxy” wars… you can’t prove it, but if you happen to be trying to convince the american public of it’s legitimacy, you can figure it out some how so as to justify a war on just about any country in the world…
    both nadine and kotz are morally and ethically bankrupt…

    Reply

  158. Paul Norheim says:

    Steve,
    I`ve sometimes wished that you had the opportunity to chime
    in more often in some of the discussions here – like this
    one…
    I know that you`re more than busy, and acknowledge that you
    have to protect your dignity as the host – the importance of
    being Steve Clemons!
    But you would certainly have added substance and weight to
    the discussion. Perhaps you could invent a pseudonym to use
    in those occasions where you may have wanted to contribute
    more aggressively? Like Napoleon, who often walked among
    ordinary people incognito?

    Reply

  159. Paul Norheim says:

    You`re right, Dan.
    I`m actually a fan of Wigwag`s prose. He usually writes a somewhat dry prose,
    supported by (valid or not-so-valid) arguments and facts, often spicing it with a
    certain irony or malice that I`m afraid some of his opponents frequently are too
    outraged to notice.
    Perhaps to old to be an anarchist, but certainly too old to let his language be
    corrupted by the campy prose of Kotz.

    Reply

  160. DonS says:

    Doltish perhaps, Kotz. But the simple fact is that Israel maintains vast military superiority, so waving the boogeyman Iran/existential threat flag doesn’t have a convincing ring. But then, logic has never much entered into the Israel firsters calculus, has it. Always has to be a zero sum game where no threat to Israel is small enough to ignore, doncha know. There, now remind me of the tragic history of Jews which, being from that lineage, I get.

    Reply

  161. Paul Norheim says:

    Monsieur Kotzabasis, mon vieux ami et amibe propre,
    I KNEW you would say something funny today too!
    “in dearth of any amour propre”…”cognitive cul-de-sac”…
    Personally I regard these gems – adoringly precious and irresistable as they
    are in their incomprehensivly inventive, decorative, malicious originality
    and solemn dignity, as nothing less then noteworthy milestones in the long
    and winding bataille de la langue maternelle.
    M. Kotz: Encore une sentence sentencieuse, s`il vous plait! Aux anglais,
    naturellement!
    Perhaps something about the Israeli and Iranian nukes this time?
    Like: how many times has Iran invaded another country in the Middle East?
    I think my lack of any amour propre is a very intriguing observation,
    but slightly off topic.

    Reply

  162. Dan Kervick says:

    “Maybe amongst the intellectually infirm or the chronically bored, but for just about anyone else this post is laughably irrelevant.”
    Nice one, WigWag. “Intellectually infirm” is positively Kotzabasis-like. But I see Kotzabasis has already one-upped it with “cognitively hornless” and “cognitive cul-de-aac”. I have a few others that you can use later if you need them:
    cerebrally impotent
    ratiocinatively decrepit
    intellectually doddering

    Reply

  163. kotzabasis says:

    Do you think when they produce one they will stay only with one without defying reason? And do you think that they would be so stolid as to fire “their one shot” as you doltishly state?

    Reply

  164. questions says:

    Nadine,
    Read Sunstein/Thaler’s book “Nudge” and you get a much more nuanced, and possibly reasonable, reading of the organ donation issue. Your description is closer to parody than you realize.
    It’s an entertaining, readable book with an interesting take on getting people to do things that are clearly in their interests: saving for the future, eating well, and yes, even donating organs (since you never know when you or a family member might need one and it’s better to have donations than to have to, umm, take them from Palestinian victims or whatever (I REALLY don’t know what to make of this one!))

    Reply

  165. DonS says:

    “The westerly civilized Israelis have never threatened with their nuclear arsenal anyone to take them “off-the-map.” It’s the fanatic millenarians of Iran who have done so! To consider Israel’s possession of nuclear weapons as an equal threat to the acquisition of the same weapons by Iran is to break the barriers of reason.”
    In your dreams Kotz. Iran had better make good with that first shot, because the retaliation would dwarf their one shot arsenal (IF they even had a bomb, etc. etc.) Now that defies reason. Oh yeah, and the slight point about the mistranslation of Iran’s supposed threat to actually physically destroy the state of Isreal vs end the Zionist political scourge. Meanwhile, Israel is attempting to wipe the Palestinians off the map one at a time, at least. But never mind.

    Reply

  166. kotzabasis says:

    Paul
    Out of desperation in your cognitive cul-de-sac you are becoming intellectually despicable. You are in dearth of any amour propre.

    Reply

  167. Paul Norheim says:

    1)Lebanon (which Hizbullah is in the process of taking over)…
    2)France and Britain have nukes. Have they tortured, invaded, etc?
    3)Iran is actively invading and torturing right NOW, both inside Iran and
    outside, a process which would be immeasurably improved with…
    Am I supposed to comment on any of this?
    Nadine, ever heard about, let`s say Algerie or Vietnam (look up “French
    torture”), the Falkland Islands (look up “British invasions”)?
    Or are you perhaps writing all this crap from one of those places that Iran
    is actively invading “right now”? Tell me, are the mad mullahs using
    rockets, tanks or nukes during these invasions?
    How do you expect a dialogue while producing lies nonstop?
    Florida, Australia, where are you? I think Nadine urgently needs some
    assistance. Something is invading her right now!

    Reply

  168. nadine says:

    Paul, now you playing word games. Iran never declared war on another country since 1979 except Iraq which attacked it first. But it has been screaming “Death to America! Death to Israel!” since 1979 and waged war against both by terrorist proxy. Hizbullah is Iran’s terrorist foreign legion, developed, bought and under orders. As for whom Iran has attacked via Hizbullah and the Qods Force, that list is long and includes Lebanon (which Hizbullah is in the process of taking over), Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Argentina, as well as the US and Israel.
    France and Britain have nukes. Have they tortured, invaded, etc? No. But Iran is actively invading and torturing right NOW, both inside Iran and outside, a process which would be immeasurably improved with the threat of a nuclear weapon added in.

    Reply

  169. Paul Norheim says:

    “trite loaded questions”?
    Now show me, where is the bias, Kotz?
    The answers to these questions are rather unpleasant to absorb, aren`t they?
    Add the one I forgot: (15) “how many proxy wars against the USA that Iran has been
    involved in?” (thanks Nadine), and then we at least can relate to some FACTS, and not
    just propaganda, scare tactics, biased assumptions, mutual demonizations etc.
    And the facts show clearly that Iran, like USA and Israel, has been deeply involved in
    some proxy wars, but NEVER – unlike Israel and USA – directly attacked any country, in
    the Middle East or elsewhere, since the Iranian revolution.
    I think such facts speak their own clear language, and this is the reason you`re
    unwilling to answer them.
    No other country than ours can be allowed to have nukes, to torture, to invade, to
    slaughter, to create mayhem, to starve their enemies, deny them medicines, water,
    sanitation. It`s a privilege given by God to the civilized word, and not to the
    barbarians and the fanatics on the planet.
    How did you spell that word, Wigwag?
    Hypocrisy?
    Or was it “double standards”?

    Reply

  170. nadine says:

    Anyone wants to see what “batshit crazy” really looks like, have a look at this clip:
    “Rothschild Legacy” of Controlling the World in the Syrian-Produced Antisemitic TV Series “Al-Shatat” Aired by Iranian TV
    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2222.htm
    According to this clip, the Jewish control of the world is so powerful that it only take one young Jew to rule and destroy each country in Europe. This is being aired in Syria, Lebanon and Iran.

    Reply

  171. kotzabasis says:

    Life is too short Paul! And you won’t have too many opportunities to use time more creatively than waste it in a farrago of trite loaded questions and least of all expect me to answer them.

    Reply

  172. nadine says:

    easy e, I am just overwhelmed by the quality of your logic. Was that your entire arsenal?

    Reply

  173. nadine says:

    Paul, you forgot “how many proxy wars against the USA that Iran has been involved in?” (One in Lebanon in the 1980s via Hizbullah and two ongoing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Plus more when you add in Syria’s activities supporting Al Qaeda, if you want to count Syria as Iran’s proxy.)
    Paul, what’s your point? That there’s lots of war in the Mideast? That by itself provides more smoke than light. Who started the wars and for what end, would be a more useful question.

    Reply

  174. Paul Norheim says:

    Hmm…
    point 14 – the invention of “unclear weapons”!?
    Sounds like something “Questions” could have
    invented, and not Oppenheimer, von Braun and the
    rest.

    Reply

  175. Paul Norheim says:

    Kotz,
    instead of opinions and assumptions, let`s provide some facts. You may start by writing
    a list of:
    1) how many times Israel has attacked a neighboring country during the last four or five
    decades?
    2) how many times Iran has attacked a neighboring country during the same time span?
    3) How many times USA has attacked a country in the Middle East or close to Iran during
    the same time span?
    4) how many times Iran has been attacked by a neighboring country in the ME?
    5) How many times Israel has been attacked by a neighboring country in the ME?
    6) How many times USA has been attacked by a Middle East country?
    7) how many times Iran explicitly has threatened to directly attack Israel militarily?
    8) how many times Israel has explicitly threatened to directly attack Iran militarily?
    9) How many times USA has explicitly threatened to directly attack Iran militarily?
    10)how many times Iran explicitly has threatened to directly attack USA militarily?
    11) how many proxy wars against Israel that Iran has been involved in?
    12) how many proxy wars against Iran that Israel has been involved in?
    13) how many proxy wars against Iran that USA has been involved in?
    14) which countries in the world have actually NUKED an enemy in wars since the
    invention of unclear weapons?
    That would be a rather comprehensive and fair list, wouldn`t it?
    The data are somewhat complex and invite to several different interpretations, depending
    on point of view, but you can see some clear tendencies here, can`t you? And those past
    actions and threats do tell something about to which degree Israel, or Iran, or the
    United States is the aggressor in the context of the region, don`t you think?

    Reply

  176. ... says:

    easy e – exactly!

    Reply

  177. easy e says:

    One comment here:
    NADINE IS C-R-A-Z-Y ! ! !
    Her posts do not dignify a response from the sane, pragmatic segment of the TWN community.

    Reply

  178. kotzabasis says:

    Indeed, Paul Norheim, the cognitive and morally ‘hornless’ bulls of TWN are in a stampede attacking the red cloth that Nadine unfurled before their mind’s eyes. But who can assail Nadine’s indisputable facts and formidable logic encapsulated in the two paragraphs of her first post?
    The westerly civilized Israelis have never threatened with their nuclear arsenal anyone to take them “off-the-map.” It’s the fanatic millenarians of Iran who have done so! To consider Israel’s possession of nuclear weapons as an equal threat to the acquisition of the same weapons by Iran is to break the barriers of reason.
    And it’s amusing to see presumably serious people countervailing the Iranian threat with a ‘call’ to Israel to be ‘POLITE’ and not to have “impertinent expectations” and “utter lack of dignity,” as a non-signatory to the non-proliferation treaty, toward those nations who have signed the treaty and not tell them “how to conduct their business.” President Obama is confronting this threat by setting-up diplomatic-love-ins, and at least one political ‘plenipotentiary’ of TWN is expecting ‘polite conduct’ from a nation whose existence is threatened. This is monumental political infantilism, depicted from another context in king Lear’s uttering, “Nothing comes out of nothing.”

    Reply

  179. nadine says:

    Wigwag, It’s only a hot topic for those who want another chance to attack Israel and whine how unfair it is to regard Iran’s nukes differently from Israel.
    What either country has done/intends to do with nukes is apparently completely irrelevant.
    Notice how nobody has even responded to the fact that a terrorist wanted by Interpol (among others) is Iran’s new Defense Minister? The Washington Note doesn’t worry about a nuclear-armed Hizbullah, apparently. Or even Hizbullah equipped with some enriched uranium to make a dirty bomb. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. Heck, it’s just one more sign of what a dirty racist I am that I even suggest there could be a problem if Hizbullah gets nukes.
    Wigwag, you’re far more on the left than I am. Doesn’t the left’s complacency about Iran strike you as reckless, especially with what we have learned about the nature of the Iranian regime in the last few months?

    Reply

  180. Paul Norheim says:

    297

    Reply

  181. WigWag says:

    Does Steve Clemons really think Israel’s nuclear arsenal is a “hot topic?”
    Maybe amongst the intellectually infirm or the chronically bored, but for just about anyone else this post is laughably irrelevant.
    Israel may have adopted a stance of deliberate ambiguity about its nuclear program, but there’s nothing ambiguous about its nuclear arsenal. Israel’s nuclear weapons program isn’t all that much smaller than the nuclear weapons program of Great Britain and France. Israel’s nuclear arsenal is about the size of India’s nuclear arsenal and like Israel, India hasn’t signed the NPT, won’t be anytime soon and will probably never give up its nuclear weapons.
    As for delivery systems, Israel has developed its own and is currently jointly developing new systems in cooperation with India. But Israel also has plenty of help. It has planes and missiles capable of delivering nuclear weapons courtesy of the United States and Dolphin Class submarines capable of delivering nuclear weapons courtesy of Germany. India has recently allowed Israel to test ship launched cruise missiles in its territorial waters in the Indian Ocean. Of course the pies de resistance is Egypt permitting the Israeli navy to sail both nuclear capable ships and submarines through the Suez Canal.
    Israel will never give up its nuclear weapons and none of the nations with any influence in the world will ever bother trying to convince the Israelis to do so.
    The topic is about as “hot” as the coldest day in January (in the northern hemisphere of course).
    But for those rooting for a 300 comment post feel free to talk about it amongst yourselves.
    Hope you get alot of yucks along the way!

    Reply

  182. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Hmmm, Paul, Varanassi and Sweetness are ALREADY posting on this thread. So is Ironbelle.

    Reply

  183. PissedOffAmerican says:

    If Wigwag shows up, I predict 297 comments in total before it escapes gracefully into the archives; if not: 197 comments.
    Oh, Wig-wag will show up. After all, Nadine deserves at least one person willing to agree with her racist spew.

    Reply

  184. Carroll says:

    Posted by nadine, Sep 04 2009, 10:51PM – Link
    Carroll, Even trying to preserve a Jewish identities is a hate crime to you. Why do you hate Jews so much?
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Well gee I don’t know, I must be a anti semite.
    Why do you hate Gentiles, Old Europe, Arabs, Muslims, Persians, the French, the Palestines, Buddhist, all non Jews? Huummm?
    I guess it’s just a matter of taste. Some of us have good taste, some of you don’t.
    Of course the fact that you are so mind numbingly stupid, dishonest and racist in your idiotic zionista ‘talking points’ for Nazi Israel doesn’t exactly dispose me to think highly of your genetic code.

    Reply

  185. Paul Norheim says:

    …,
    I think Questions will chime in, initially against
    Nadine, than against POA.
    If Wigwag shows up, I predict 297 comments in total
    before it escapes gracefully into the archives; if
    not: 197 comments.
    And who knows, perhaps Varanasi shows up after one
    of his trips abroad, and even Sweetness? Then we
    may reach an all time high.

    Reply

  186. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Sep 4, 2009
    US faces a tough choice on Iran
    By Kaveh L Afrasiabi
    With the coming of September, the Iran nuclear file is once again center stage. A number of developments are unfolding simultaneously that could see further sanctions imposed on Tehran for its uranium-enrichment program, especially as Israel ups the ante.
    On Wednesday, the “Iran Six” – the United States, France, Britain, China, Russia and Germany – met in Germany in an attempt to secure an agreement on imposing tougher sanctions on Iran. The United Nations has already slapped two rounds of sanctions on the country.
    This meeting comes ahead of a UN gathering on the subject later this month, and shortly after the International Atomic Energy
    Agency (IAEA) released its latest report on Iran’s nuclear program on August 28.
    The Vienna-based IAEA, whose full board meets again next week, confirmed that Iran had not suspended its enrichment-related activities and called on the country to reassure the world that it was not trying to build an atomic weapon. The report also said Tehran was producing nuclear fuel at a slower rate and had allowed UN inspectors increased access to its main nuclear complex in Natanz.
    “There remain a number of outstanding issues which give rise to concerns and which need to be clarified to exclude the existence of possible military dimensions to Iran’s nuclear program,” said the text of the IAEA report, as quoted by the Associated Press. It said the IAEA “does not consider that Iran has adequately addressed the substance of the issues, having focused instead on the style and form … and providing limited answers and simple denials.”
    In the face of this, after much internal debate, Iran has finalized a new “package” that lays out its perspective on how to proceed in the nuclear negotiations. The details have not been disclosed, but the fact that the Iranian side is prepared to engage in serious talks has received an enthusiastic response from Washington.
    Amid all of this, the Israeli government is leading a global campaign against Iran by marshalling its forces, particularly in the US, to paint as gloomy a picture as possible of both the nature of Iran’s nuclear progress, or rather threat, as well as Iran’s regime, described by a Wall Street Journal editorial as “fascist”. While blaming US President Barack Obama’s inaction on Iran, the editorial fully endorses an Israeli strike on Iran in the event the US and its allies fail to impose “crippling sanctions” on Iran. [1]
    The Obama administration has placed its hope in constructive dialogue with Tehran, something now favored by the Iranian government. The entire weight of the Jewish lobby is now trying to convince the White House that it must face the unpredictable, and dangerous, consequences of a unilateral Israeli war on Iran if it fails to put some real teeth in Iran sanctions.
    Pro-Israel pundits in the US are in full stride in the the opinion columns of newspapers and on television news programs. There is much talk of “mad mullahs” and their bombs in the making, set to wipe out the Jewish state.
    Relying on a caricature of Iran and Shi’ite Islam, these pundits depict an irrational Iranian regime that is under the spell of religious apocalypticism, whereby sacrificing the lives of millions of Iranians is considered a legitimate price for a noble cause. This is reductionist to the core and is based on a perverse interpretation of the Mahdist belief in Twelver Shi’ism.
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KI04Ak01.html
    Notice how this racist worm Nadine always manages, right on cue, to vomit up the official Israeli propaganda d’jour?

    Reply

  187. ... says:

    paul, that would require involvement from wigwag, poa and questions and at this point it doesn’t look like it is going to happen..of course nadine is here, so there is an outside chance…

    Reply

  188. Paul Norheim says:

    I wouldn`t be surprised if this is destined to
    become one of those infamous 300-comments threads
    at TWN.

    Reply

  189. Outraged American says:

    Jesus (I just took the Lord’s name in vain) it’s not about
    preserving a Jewish identity, it’s about the Zionists trying to kill
    all Jews by making sure they’re hated.
    Christian and other Zionists are the greatest threat to world
    peace and the greatest threat to Members of the Tribe (TM
    Hollywood) themselves.
    Israel has nukes and delivery systems, courtesy of the US and,
    ironically, Germany. Israel is threatening an attack on Iran. The
    domino effect would be… extreme.
    Having lived and then worked around Jews for a huge portion of
    my life, and being married to a half one, I have to say that it’s
    up to Jews to preserve their own identity. Given that they’re
    doing just fine in the Jewish diaspora, they can surely choose to
    marry each other rather than a goy.
    As a shiksa married to a man who has the absurd “right of
    return” I really want Israel to STFU. Take your toys and go home.
    And give-up the nukes. And stop bugging us for money. and
    get off of my lawn.

    Reply

  190. Carroll says:

    Kathleen
    I have been reading about the Israeli organ trafficing for years in the international papers. It’s been well known for a long time. It never of course got any press in the US till the FBI actually caught a group operating on US soil. But all the law enforcement agencies around the world knew about it.
    A lot of Jews won’t donate their organs because of their primitive religious beliefs…but they will accept transplants which is probably why organ trafficing is so big in Israel.
    >>>>>>””In favor of organ donation, most authorities rely on the overarching principle (pikuach nefesh) that requires extraordinary actions to preserve or save life.
    Another issue is Jews donating organs to non-Jews. Some say that because every man is created in the image of God pikuach nefesh spreads to non-Jews also.
    Also, there is a fear of enmity between Jews and non-Jews so rabbis say that pikuach nefesh has to apply to non-Jews also, because there is already a complaint in the medical world about Jews being willing to receive organs but not give organs.
    In addition, by putting yourself on an organ list there is a possibility that a Jew on the list will be bumped up if a non-Jew is given your organ.
    Overall, according to many Halachic rulers, there is no Halacha that says you can’t donate organs, and usually it is pikuach nefesh that gives people permission to donate. However, because of some dissenting Halachic rulers, it is advised to consult with a rabbi before making a decision.
    [edit] Sources
    Elliot N. Dorff. Matters of Life and Death:A Jewish Approach to Modern Medical Ethics Philadelphia and Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society 1998. Pp. xix, 476. $24.46. ISBN 0-827-60647-8
    Jakobovits, Immanuel. 1959. Jewish Medical Ethics. New York: Bloch Publishing. pp. 285-291
    Lau, Y. “The sale of organs for transplantation” (Hebrew), Tehumin 18:125-136, 1998
    Joseph Prouser. “Organ and Tissue Donation Card” in Mackler, Aaron L., ed. 2000. Life & Death Responsibilities in Jewish Biomedical Ethics. JTS.
    Ramirez, Anthony. “Medicine Meets Religion In Organ Donation Debate.” New York Times, 11/18/2006, Vol. 156 Issue 53767, pB2-B2, 1/3p; (AN 23283799)
    Sinclair, Daniel. Jewish biomedical law. Oxford Univ. Press, 2003 (Chapter 6)
    Twersky, Abraham, Michael Gold, and Walter Jacob. 1991. “Jewish Perspectives.” Pp. 187-98 in New Harvest: transplanting the body and reaping the benefits, edited by C. Don Keyes and Walter E. Wiest. Clifton, NJ: Hurnana Press.
    Stephen J. Werber. “Ancient Answers to Modern Questions: Death, Dying, and Organ Transplants – A Jewish Law Perspective,” ‘’Cleveland State University Journal of Law and Health, 1996 / 1997, v.11 “”
    One legal way to solve the problem is if you aren’t, or someone in your family isn’t, a registered organ donor than you don’t get an transplant organ either…sounds fair to me. I registered 10 years ago when a 37 year old friend of ours needed a heart transplant…hundreds of thousands of people dying every day and not a heart to be found for him for almost a year.

    Reply

  191. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “POA, which is the greater threat to world peace…..”
    Ignorant racist jackasses like yourself, Nadine. If we could just rid the planet of bigots and zealotry, we’d be a long step closer to world peace.
    Now that I’ve answered your question, crawl back under your rock, will ya?

    Reply

  192. nadine says:

    POA, which is the greater threat to world peace, a wanted terrorist with nuclear weapons in his hands, or construction of an apartment building in East Jerusalem?

    Reply

  193. nadine says:

    Carroll, Even trying to preserve a Jewish identities is a hate crime to you. Why do you hate Jews so much?
    By the way, did you know that it is a capital crime for an Arab to sell land to a Jew in the Palestinian Authority, and men have been killed for mere suspicion of this “crime”?

    Reply

  194. nadine says:

    Kathleen, the article you linked has nothing in it about Israel. It’s about Obama’s regulatory czar, who thinks that people aren’t qualified to make decisions for themselves about donation so the government should decide for them:
    (CNSNews.com) – Cass Sunstein, President Barack Obama’s nominee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), has advocated a policy under which the government would “presume” someone has consented to having his or her organs removed for transplantation into someone else when they die unless that person has explicitly indicated that his or her organs should not be taken.
    There’s a word for the kind of state where normal people are not considered qualified to make decisions about their own lives and bodies but must yield to the decisions of government employees for the sake of the common good. That word is “fascist.”

    Reply

  195. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “The Middle East knows very well how to read such weakness”
    You bet. And you can rest assured the fact that Netanyahu giving a big “fuck you” to Obama is not escaping notice.
    You’re right, Obama is a coward. But you asre full of shit in your reasoning behind reaching that conclusion.

    Reply

  196. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    Wonder who will succeed ElBaradei when he steps down from the UN IAEI soon? Why not have UN Inspectors in Iran and Israel?
    Meanwhile, back in the ghoulish lane, I’ve seen the articles about black market traffic in live organs in Israel. With Israel’s low rate of organ donors, I’m wondering how Israeli’s would like this Obama nominee’s policy on “Presumed Consent” for organ donations.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53534

    Reply

  197. nadiine says:

    If Israel’s Arab enemies really thought that Israel was “batshit crazy” they would have moved heaven and earth to get nukes of their own. Yet somehow Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have survived and even made war on Israel while knowing that Israel had nukes! How come? Were they completely suicidal? Or did they understand that Israel’s nukes were not going to be used except as last-ditch self-defense?
    But now that Iran is going to get nukes, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are scrambling to get theirs. Mubarak kept trying to get Obama to pay attention to Iran’s nukes. Their behavior shows that nukes in Iran’s hands are a lot more serious in their eyes, at any rate.
    But Obama still wants to engage Iran. His whole response to Ahmedinejad’s stolen election and brutal suppression of the protests, with attendant murders, rapes, and abuse of prisoners, has been “Shucks. Can’t engage now. Must press for UN sanctions.” Which won’t happen now anymore than they have before; Russia and China will veto.
    Meantime, Ahmedinejad has just appointed (and Iran’s Parliament has confirmed) Ahamd Vahidi for Defense Minister. Interpol has an arrest warrant out for him as the mastermind of Hizbullah’s bombings of a Jewish community center in Buenos Aires in 1994 and of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia in 1996. And Obama doesn’t say a damn thing! A wanted terrorist is Iran’s Defense Minister, and he doesn’t mind! A wanted terrorist will have control of Iran’s nuclear bombs! The Iranians just spat in his face, and he smiles and pretends nothing happened!
    The Middle East knows very well how to read such weakness. The Iranians are moving to fill the power vacuum.
    But at the Washington Note, it’s time for another little academic discussion on “outing” Israel’s nukes, and how “unfair” it is that anybody should object to Iran’s nukes, just because they signed a treaty and fund terrorist proxies all over the Middle East.
    Unreal. Simply unreal.

    Reply

  198. Carroll says:

    Yes Outraged I am female.
    And Paul is right. I have had this problem for some time now, about 9 years to be exact, ever since I finally realized every other word of political speak/wonking on this subject is black is white Orwellington bullshit for dummies.
    Israel is what it is. A racist nazi state. They actually think they are the “master race”.
    Who in their right mind wound want a cult like Israel to have the “bomb”? They are crazy, the chosen people nazis, same mentality as Hitler’s crew.
    Look at this crazy shit…
    Jerusalem Post: A group of rabbis calling themselves the “Sanhedrin” have ruled that it a Jew who sells land to a Palestinian Israeli is an “enemy” and must be excommunicated.
    Jerusalem: An axe-wielding Jew in an orhtodox neighborhood went on a rampage, attacking a Palestinian cab driver in a “lynching attempt,” then trashing his car.
    Tony Karon […]
    http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/2009/09/video-new-masa-israel-ad-campaign.html
    New MASA Israel ad campaign targets Jews ‘abducted’ by intermarriage
    By Dana Weiler-Polak http://www.haaretz.com September 2, 2009
    The Prime Minister’s Office and the Jewish Agency unveiled an aggressive advertisement campaign for the MASA project which is designed to strengthen Jewish identity among youths in the Diaspora and their bonds to Israel.
    One video clip likens Jews who marry outside of the religion to missing persons, with fake notices and pictures which drive home the point.
    As part of the campaign, similar “missing person” notices will be plastered on walls around the country.
    MASA hopes the campaign will spur the public to commit to the cause of preventing marriage to non-Jews, which Jewish Agency officials believe is tantamount to a “strategic national threat.”
    The head of the campaign, Motti Scharf, compared assimilation to the critical water shortage.
    “Even though this is an existential problem, the public in Israel is displaying apathy towards it because the process is slow and not dramatic, out of sight,” he said. “The time has come to put the issue on the table.”
    And this deranged government of nazis and religious cultist and racist should have the bomb?
    These are exactly the kind of insane fanatics that would use it.

    Reply

  199. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Symington Amendment
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Symington Amendment is legislation introduced by Stuart Symington, a Democratic senator from Missouri, authored to strengthen the US position on nuclear non-proliferation.
    The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 was amended by the Symington Amendment (Section 669 of the FAA) in 1976. It banned U.S. economic, and military assistance, and export credits to countries that deliver or receive, acquire or transfer nuclear enrichment technology when they do not comply with IAEA regulations and inspections. This provision, as amended, is now contained in Section 101 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA).
    The Glenn Amendment (Section 670) was later adopted in 1977, and provided the same sanctions against countries that acquire or transfer nuclear reprocessing technology or explode or transfer a nuclear device. This provision, as amended, is now contained in Section 102 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symington_Amendment
    The billions we piss away to Israel annually are appropriated illegally. Thats why our Congress whores do not publically acknowledge Israel’s nuclear arsenal.
    To seek to “engage” Iran about its nuclear ambitions, while keeping Israel’s nuclear arsenal closeted, is nothing more than posturing. If we were serious about “engagement”, we would need to drop the ridiculous side show of a “secret” Israeli nuclear arsenal. But as this fuckin’ coward Obama has shown us on the settlement issue, it is ISRAEL that calls the shots and dictates what we can and cannot do in any foreign diplomacy that may affect Israel.
    As an aside, the billions flushed down the crapper to Pakistan also violated the Symington Amendment, due to Kahn’s actions. But hey, who gives a shit? Laws and treaties are made to be broken, right? Unless of course we want to invade you and kill a million or so of your citizens, then, by God, you better not violate any of them selectively enforced “UN Resolutions”.
    Look, heres the deal. Israel is a maggot state, feeding on the rotten corpse of what THIS nation was supposed to be.

    Reply

  200. ... says:

    dan – chutzpah 24/7…..when it comes to israel, welcome to an alternate reality similar or orwells 1984…you have a lot of nerve talking reality…

    Reply

  201. Paul Norheim says:

    Outraged,
    I must admit that I laughed out loud reading your joke…
    Yes, Carroll is a woman, and she`s had this problem
    for years now.
    It`s a bit like JohnH`s “foreign policy mob” – incapable of
    saying: “OIL, OIL, OIL!”

    Reply

  202. Outraged American says:

    It’s obvious that Carroll has a problem expressing her thoughts.
    Carroll, can you say what you really feel about Israel?
    THAT WAS A JOKE.
    Carroll, I’m with you. I’m not sure if you’re a female, but you are
    invited to Feminazia. You can be our Ambassador to Israel. Cage
    fight with Netanyahu on Pay Per View.

    Reply

  203. Carroll says:

    Israel is batshit crazy, parasitic, midget nazi country in violation of every international law known to man.
    The US zionist cult and their Israeli politicans in congress are traitors to this country and will if they can commit the US to another war for Israel.
    That it’s, that’s the bottom line, that’s all anyone needs to understand.

    Reply

  204. Dan Kervick says:

    “…Israel says it “expects the international community to take substantive and prompt steps to halt Iran’s military nuclear program.”…”
    Israel’s impertinent “expectations” ought to have little weight, since it has voluntarily disqualified itself from having a voice in the deliberations of the international community where nuclear matters are concerned. There is something nearly humorous about Israel’s utter lack of dignity, and its misunderstanding of its own position.
    If a nation chooses to remain among the outlaw few who are not part of the non-proliferation regime, that is its own business. But it also then has no business telling the nations that are part of that regime, and that are shouldering the responsibility of maintaining that regime, how to conduct their business. If Israel wants a voice, it should join the club. I guarantee that this one is not restricted. If it chooses to abide alone outside the compact, then it would do well to refrain from telling the club’s officers how to govern the club’s affairs.

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  205. ... says:

    “The way that the nuclear weapons world works today is that if you are “trusted” by the US and Europe– you can overtly or covertly hold on to your nukes, particularly if a nation is not part of the non-proliferation regime.”
    who trusts the usa anymore though???

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