Ways of War

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israel f16.jpg
Mousa Abu Marzook, a senior member of Hamas exiled in Damascus, has another opinion piece out, this one, naturally, regarding the Israeli incursion into Gaza.
The most poignant line reads: “But now, amid Israel’s latest attack on our people, as the death toll rises in the hundreds, with thousands wounded — all victims of American taxpayers’ largesse — Palestinians wonder how Obama will react to the escalating crisis. They demand of the next White House a new paradigm of respect and accountability, because when Palestinians see an F-16 with the Star of David painted on its tail, they see America.” It’s worth a read.
The U.S. feels surprisingly intertwined with the current conflict in the Levant – especially given the lack weight our own two wars often bring to bear.
Protests in New York, Boston and Washington; counter protests to anti-Semitic vandalism in Chicago; in San Francisco Palestinians and Israelis protesting together, and in Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa becoming embroiled.
Both sides of the heated conflict – those vehemently pro-Israeli and those more sympathetic to Palestinian views – seem anxious to find out where the next president will fall on the issue come January 20th.
Lost in the chaos, though, seems to be the extent to which this clash is also America’s, a fact outlined in Marzook’s argument.
American bombs, American planes, and American idleness, all lead rage in the Muslim world to be directed at the far enemy in addition to Israel. As Lawrence Wright often remarks, “if the Israeli-Palestinian crisis were resolved tomorrow,” bin Laden “would be heartbroken.” The conflict remains his bread and butter.
It’s difficult to think about this bitter fight without pondering the role of American war machines, and thus the American military complex.
New America will be hosting an important event here on Thursday with Eugene Jarecki, director of Why We Fight, a seminal documentary that won the 2005 Sundance grand jury prize.
Jarecki will be discussing his new book, The American Way of War: Guided Missiles, Misguided Men, and a Republic in Peril.
The book traces the evolution of the military industrial complex through the years, from Eisenhower’s forewarning to the Bush tenure, in which Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld launched a campaign to revamp the American way of defense and, quite revolutionarily, the American way of offense.
Please join us, or if unable, watch streaming live here on the Wash Note.
— Brian Till

Comments

50 comments on “Ways of War

  1. downtown says:

    If anyone here thinks that fanaticism is limited to Palestinians / Arabs, here is a video shot by the indefatigable Max Blumenthal at the Pro-Israel Rally in NYC on 1/11/09. Some of the answers are bone-chilling.
    And…nothing will change under an Obama administration aith HRC as SOS…nothing…nothing…nothing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo

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  2. Cee says:

    Correct.
    The following UPI story appeared on June 18, 2002.
    Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.
    In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.
    But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: “The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place,” said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.
    “Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with,” he said.

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  3. rich says:

    Israel eliminated Fatah as a viable option, and with it any moderate political ground that was most in its interest — it did this while simultaneously feeding and nurturing Hamas. Now confronted with a violent military organization, it has the excuse it wants for taking aggressive military action.
    Why would Israel want to support Fatah? Israel isn’t looking for a compromise. Israel isn’t looking for a truce.
    A little history would help you grope your way out of the dark.

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  4. Cee says:

    I’m tired of these submission errors. Is anyone else dealing with this?
    Israel is a world leader in high tech communications, electronics and software, robotics, avionics, aerospace, pharmacueticals, and materials composition.
    Israel is also a world leader in a broad range of weapons manufacture as I am sure you will note,
    Tony,
    Made possible by aid from the US. I want the US subsidy to end.
    Here is something you can understand
    Bestselling author Tim Wallace-Murphy presents the first major popular book to examine the common roots of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and to reveal Islam’s immense contributions to our society—which included laying the foundations for our systems of education, astronomy, mathematics, and architecture.
    http://www.amazon.com/What-Islam-Did-Understanding-Contribution/dp/1842932012
    I think I’m now done talking with people who continue to defend what Israel is doing.
    A boycott is in order.
    http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.php
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel

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  5. Cee says:

    Wag,
    Emmpower the corrupt Fatah? Ha.
    I don’t want to hear any solutions that Israeli whores propose.
    I’ll listen to these people
    U.S. rabbis urge Obama to push for immediate Gaza truce
    By Natasha Mozgavaya, Haaretz Correspondent and Haaretz Staff
    A group of rabbis and other religious leaders bought advertising space in the New York Times this week to call for U.S. president-elect Barack Obama to push for an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip.
    The failed state of Israel just bombed a cemetary where people were recently buried.
    Another mistake or a tantrum?

    Reply

  6. WigWag says:

    Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas
    By JEFFREY GOLDBERG
    Published: January 13, 2009: New York Times
    Washington
    IN the summer of 2006, at a moment when Hezbollah rockets were falling virtually without pause on northern Israel, Nizar Rayyan, husband of four, father of 12, scholar of Islam and unblushing executioner, confessed to me one of his frustrations.
    We were meeting in a concrete mosque in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Mr. Rayyan, who was a member of the Hamas ruling elite, and an important recruiter of suicide bombers until Israel killed him two weeks ago (along with several of his wives and children), arrived late to our meeting from parts unknown.
    He was watchful for assassins even then, and when I asked him to describe his typical day, he suggested that I might be a spy for Fatah. Not the Mossad, mind you, not the C.I.A., but Fatah.
    What a phantasmagorically strange conflict the Arab-Israeli war had become! Here was a Saudi-educated, anti-Shiite (but nevertheless Iranian-backed) Hamas theologian accusing a one-time Israeli Army prison official-turned-reporter of spying for Yasir Arafat’s Fatah, an organization that had once been the foremost innovator of anti-Israeli terrorism but was now, in Mr. Rayyan’s view, indefensibly, unforgivably moderate.
    In the Palestinian civil war, Fatah, which today controls much of the West Bank and is engaged in intermittent negotiations with Israel, had become Mr. Rayyan’s direst enemy, a party of apostates and quislings. “First we must deal with the Muslims who speak of a peace process and then we will deal with you,” he declared.
    But we spoke that day mainly about the hadith, the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, that specifically concerned Jews and their diverse and apparently limitless character failings. This sort of conversation, while illuminating, can become wearying over time, at least for the Jewish participant, and so I was happy to learn that Mr. Rayyan had his own sore points.
    “Hezbollah is doing very well against Israel, don’t you think?” I asked. His face darkened, suggesting that he understood the implication of my question. At the time, Hamas, too, was firing rockets into Israel, though irregularly and without much effect.
    “We support our brothers in the resistance,” he said. But then he added, “I think each situation is different.”
    How so?
    “They have advantages that we in Gaza don’t have,” he said. “They have excellent weapons. Hezbollah moves freely in Lebanon. We are trapped in the Israeli cage. So I don’t like to hear the sentence, ‘Hezbollah is the leader of the resistance.’ It’s a very annoying sentence. They are heroes to us. But we are the ones fighting in Palestine.”
    “And they’re Shia,” I said. Mr. Rayyan, who was educated by Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, was known in Gaza as a firm defender of Sunni theology and privilege, and sometimes lectured at the Islamic University of Gaza on the danger of Shiite “infiltration.”
    “Yes! There are many different secret agendas,” he said. “We have to be aware of this.”
    Hamas men across Gaza were of two minds on the subject of Hezbollah: One night, I met the members of a Hamas rocket team in the town of Beit Hanoun, on Gaza’s northern border with Israel. The group’s leader, who went by the name of Abu Obeidah, said that he, too, was frustrated by Hezbollah’s success against Israel; he even asked if Hamas’s rocket attacks that summer were featured on television in America, and seemed to deflate physically when I told him no.
    “Everyone, all the media, says that Hezbollah is wonderful,” he complained. “We stand with our brothers of Hezbollah, of course, but, really, look at the advantages they have. They get all the rockets they will ever need from Iran.”
    Hamas is not a monolith, and opinions inside the group differ about many things, including engagement with the Shiites of Hezbollah and Iran. The former Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi told me shortly before he was assassinated by Israel in 2004 that it would be “uncharitable” to find fault with Iran.
    “What do the Arab states do for us?” he asked. “Iran is steadfast against the Jews.”
    Today, there is no doubt that Rantisi’s view holds sway inside the organization, and many in Hamas wish for even closer ties with Tehran, particularly over the past month as they have absorbed a battering from Israel. Even those who believe that Iran is secretly trying to bring Sunni Palestinians to Shiism acknowledge anti-Israel Shiites as ideals of resistance
    As the Gaza war moves to a cease-fire, a crucial question will inevitably arise, as it has before: Should Israel (and by extension, the United States) try to engage Hamas in a substantive and sustained manner?
    It is a fair question, one worth debating, but it is unmoored from certain political and theological realities. One irresistible reality grows from Hamas’s complicated, competitive relationship with Hezbollah. For Hamas, Hezbollah is not only a source of weapons and instruction, it is a mentor and role model.
    Hamas’s desire to best Hezbollah’s achievements is natural, of course, but, more to the point, it is radicalizing. One of the reasons, among many, that Hamas felt compelled to break its cease-fire with Israel last month was to prove its potency to Muslims impressed with Hezbollah.
    Another reality worth considering concerns theology. Hamas and Hezbollah emerged from very different streams of Islam: Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood; Hezbollah is an outright Iranian proxy that takes its inspiration from the radical Shiite politics of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. But the groups share a common belief that Jews are a cosmological evil, enemies of Islam since Muhammad sought refuge in Medina.
    Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven’t heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.
    I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi where he learned what he called “the truth” of the Holocaust — that it didn’t happen — and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim “liberation” of Palestine “can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.” He went on to argue that the Jews are a “curse to anyone who lives near them.”
    Nizar Rayyan expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: “We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ‘Death to Israel!’”
    Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,” Mr. Rayyan said. “So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.”
    I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.
    There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.
    The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.
    The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.

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  7. ... says:

    2 sentences back to back ability to be completely biased and unable to ever openly admit it..
    >>I make a very distinct differentiation between the people of Palestine, moderates in hamas, or islam in general and jihadi’s specifically. The former constituencies deserve the same rights as as every other decent law abiding civil human being on earth, – the latter must be mercilessly hunted, captured, or preferrably killed.
    Israel is a world leader in high tech communications, electronics and software, robotics, avionics, aerospace, pharmacueticals, and materials composition.<<
    one need not read any more of tony foresta to get the drift of his posts or that he ought to be a paid person on israels propaganda payroll..

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  8. TonyForesta says:

    You, nor anyone else can put false words into my mouth Cee, or dare to presume what I feel or think. It may give you some joy to imagine otherwise, but you are wildly off base and grossly mistaken.
    I do mourn for all innocent lives wasted everywhere by all the various socalled leaderships unholy pursuit of economic, political, or religious gain.
    I make a very distinct differentiation between the people of Palestine, moderates in hamas, or islam in general and jihadi’s specifically. The former constituencies deserve the same rights as as every other decent law abiding civil human being on earth, – the latter must be mercilessly hunted, captured, or preferrably killed.
    Israel is a world leader in high tech communications, electronics and software, robotics, avionics, aerospace, pharmacueticals, and materials composition.
    Israel is also a world leader in a broad range of weapons manufacture as I am sure you will note, – but the great advances in weapons industries does not diminish in any way the positive contributions Israel offers to the global community.
    You still dance away from and tellingly avoid answering my question about what contribution any muslim nation offers to the global community outside of oil, martyrs, sharia, and massmurder operations.
    This link http://terrorwonk.blogspot.com/2009/01/modeling-terrorist-group-behavior-hamas.html provides “SOMA (Stochastic Opponent Modeling Agents) that calculates probabilities of a group acting in a given way in a given situation” explanation for Israels ruthless conduct in the Gaza. I’m not saying it’s right, but I am saying there is some basis of discussion here beyond the rancid hatred of Israel, and passionate support for hamas.
    The primary formulations are base on the sad calculus that “Reducing Hamas’ desire to commit violence does not seem possible, it is essential that Israeli strategy reduce their capability. In that regard, cutting the Hamas supply lines of the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt (and attacking the broader smuggling network) is critical.”
    Again, hamas massmurderers will be targeted and killed, (like it or not, right or wrong depending on perspective) You do not support these actions, I do. I do not support all of Israels actions in Palestine, and abhor no matter what you say the slaughter of innocents, but I fully support smoking jihadis, – every single one them, and all those who aid and abet them.
    If moderates with hamas and other moderates within Palestine would reject the “desire to commit violence” – there could be progress. If not, then these horrible bloody spectacles will continue.

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  9. Cee says:

    Tony,
    No. We are at war with Muslims who own the resources on this planet. God didn’t look too kindly on us for placing all that wealth under the soil of other nations.
    Stop lying. You don’t mourn the dead.
    You and that failed state think that anyone who voted for Hamas is a jhadi. Dead baby? Future jhadi.
    The same applies to people who didn’t vote for Hamas and wouldn’t work in their government like the brother of a CBS news correspondent. Just a dead Palestinian/jhadi on land that Israel wants. Did I miss Israel lie again and say that they killed him by mistake?
    What does Israel provide to the world these days?
    Would we miss that failed state if it ceased to exist tommorw?
    Avigdor Lieberman talked about dropping a nuclear weapon on Gaza so we might just get to find out.

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  10. TonyForesta says:

    It is more disturbing than interesting article WigWag and cuts to the question I always ask which never is answered and my larger point of the nature of islam. What does positive contribution does any muslim nation offer to the community of nation? Adultery is naughty, but civilized humanity in the 21st century has moved far beyond stoning as a legitimate means of punishment. If these freaks thinks that any western nation or society or people will ever succumb to this kind of barbaric insanity, – they are wildly mistaken.
    Though we all mourn and regret the loss of innocent lives Cee,, but I personally applaud Israels successes in targeted killings of jihadis. Bravo! The fewer jihadis breathing another day, the better life will be for all people including their muslim sisters and brothers.
    You will find no sympathy or empathy for the targeted killing of jihadis’ here, or most anywhere else in the civilized world.
    The good citizens of the Bay area prove that America is not monolithic and that there is a good deal of ground support for Palestinian interests and rights. Believe or not, I am one of those individuals who believe Palestine has suffered grotesque injustices, and the Israels conduct in Palestine constitutes aparthied and must change. But, I also fully support smoking every jihadi and all those who aid and abet them on the planet.
    This primary difference many commentators here avoid is that jihadist islam is at war with everyone on earth, including the fellow muslims. On the other hand every one else on earth is at war with jihdist islam. Not islam, but jihadist islam specifically. Greater islam and if there is such a thing as peaceful or moderate or progressive islam must make a choice. Join the 21st century or suffer the continue unrelenting and certain fiery reprecussions and targeted killings of every jihadist on earth.

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  11. cee says:

    Wag,
    Don’t move to Iran then.
    I won’t move to the failed state of Israel. Deal?
    Israel ‘back of the bus’ rule sparks religious row
    January 14, 2008…. Tue, Jan 15 03:11 PM
    Every time Israeli student Iris Yoffe takes the bus to Jerusalem, she has to be ready for abuse from ultra-Orthodox Jews who say she should be kept off because she’s wearing trousers.
    Assuming she makes it onto the bus at all — on several occasions groups of Orthodox men have tried to block the door — Yoffe, 24, heads for the “women’s section” at the back of the bus, keeps her head down and tries to ignore the insults.
    ————————————————
    Israel’s Sex Trade Escalating
    3,000-5,000 Women Smuggled Into Country In Last Four Years
    JERUSALEM, March 23, 2005 | by Kevin Hechtkopf
    (CBS)
    (AP) Between 3,000 and 5,000 women have been smuggled into Israel over the past four years in a burgeoning, illegal sex industry, according to a parliamentary committee report issued Wednesday.
    Zehava Galon, who heads the Committee Against Trade in Women, said the four-year inquiry showed how women are smuggled across the Egyptian border into Israel and “along the way, raped, beaten and then sold in public auctions.” Most of the women are from the former Soviet Union, she said.
    ————————————————-
    Jewish extremists in Israel are so opposed to a planned gay pride march in Jerusalem that they are rioting in the streets.
    In the Samarian settlement of Eli a homemade bomb was found at the doorway of a police station. The device, which had a sign attached to it saying “Sodomites Out!” was disarmed.
    Earlier in the day members of other branches of Judaism also opposed to the parade met with representatives of Open House, the LGBT community center that puts on the parade, in an effort to maintain a dialogue. [emphasis added]
    Shlomo Amar, one of Israel’s two chief rabbis, wrote that by ignoring religious laws prohibiting homosexuality the march “threatens the existence of the people of Israel in its land” and was more destructive than “Nebuchadnezzar and Titus,” referring to two historical figures who sacked Jerusalem. …
    [Yehuda Levin, a rabbi from Brooklyn, New York] declined to condemn potential violence against marchers.
    Source: International Herald Tribune

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  12. WigWag says:

    TonyForesta might find this interesting.
    Adulterers Stoned to Death in Iran
    By Thomas Erdbrink
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Tuesday, January 13, 2009; 4:44 PM
    TEHRAN, Jan. 13 — Two men convicted of adultery in the northeastern city of Mashhad were stoned to death in December, but a third convicted man escaped while the punishment was being carried out, a spokesman for Iran’s judiciary said Tuesday.
    Ali Reza Jamshidi also said that a moratorium on the controversial punishment, announced in 2002 by judiciary head Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, was an advisory rather than an edict.
    “Judges can’t act based simply on advisories by the head of the judiciary, since judges are independent,” he said, according to the semi-official ISNA news agency.
    The European Union, the United Nations and human rights advocates inside and outside Iran have decried stoning, which is enshrined in the country’s Islamic legal code as a punishment for homosexuality and adultery. Condemned men are buried in sand up to their waists, and women up to their necks, and are pelted with stones until they die or manage to escape. Under the law, a condemned person’s life is spared if he can free himself.
    Shahroudi’s comments in 2002 had suggested that Iran was moving away from the practice. Since then, however, five people have been stoned after local judges issued the sentence, human rights groups in Iran say. It is not known how many people were stoned before the moratorium was announced.
    In August last year, the judiciary said that the lives of four people sentenced to stoning had been spared and that the implementation of other sentences had been halted pending a review of the cases. Ten people, including eight women, are currently awaiting stoning, according to human rights activists.
    “There was a very clear promise that there would be no more stonings,” said Asieh Amini, an independent journalist who specializes in human rights cases. “Today, the spokesperson says that judges can act independently and that punishments were carried out since then. This shows that even the word of the highest judicial authorities don’t carry any weight.”
    Jamshidi, the spokesman, said the judiciary is awaiting passage of a new law in which “some circumstances for the stoning punishment have been foreseen.” He did not give a time frame. The bill does not call for the abolition of stoning, he said, but specifies that the punishment not be carried out if it insults the image of Islam.
    Amini said the proposed legislation does nothing to prevent stoning, since it would be unclear who will decide whether a particular sentence reflects badly on Islam. “These stoning verdicts are an insult to Islam, anyway,” Amini said.
    Jamshidi said that the December stonings in Mashhad were carried out on two men who had been convicted of having relationships with married women. “The third man managed to escape from the pit,” he said, adding that the man had also been convicted of adultery. He gave no further information on the man’s fate.
    On Monday, Shahroudi personally blocked the stoning of two married women, saying that video footage of them having sex with two men other than their husbands was inconclusive, the Ettemaad newspaper, which is critical of the government, reported Tuesday. Iran’s Supreme Court had earlier upheld the sentence.
    During his weekly news conference, the judicial spokesman also said that Esha Momeni, an Iranian
    American student at California State University at Northridge who was detained in October, will not be allowed to leave the country for at least another month, saying “a new issue has turned up in her case.” He did not specify the issue.
    Momeni was arrested after conducting video interviews with activists for her masters’ thesis on women’s rights. Iranian authorities accused her of “propagating against the system.” She was released in November after paying $200,000 bail but was not allowed to leave Iran.

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  13. Cee says:

    Tony,
    Interesting link you provided.
    On 26 January 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for a complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state (it later repeated the same offer after winning the majority in the PLC, accepting the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative[32]). Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin stated that the group could accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Rantissi confirmed that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was “difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation.”
    From the time of an attack on the Israeli southern town of Be’er Sheva in August 2004, in which 15 civilians were killed and 125 wounded, the truce was generally observed. Hamas violated it once, in August 2005, with an attack on the same bus station
    ———————————————–
    You’ll see why Hamas finally fought back!
    ———————————————–
    2005
    Hassan ‘Attiyah Hassan al-Madhun
    31 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 01.11.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with another friend while driving in a car. Nine other persons were injured.
    Fawzi Muhammad Shhadeh Abu al-Qar’a
    36 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 01.11.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with another friend while driving in a car. Nine other persons were injured.
    Sa’id ‘Issa Jaber Siyam
    32 year-old resident of Khan Yunis, killed on 17.07.2005 in Khan Yunis, by gunfire. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while standing outside his house with his father and his son. The gunfire came from the direction of the military post in the Neve Dekalim settlement.
    Mahmoud Suleiman Metwali al-‘Arkan
    29 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 07.12.2005 in Rafah, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during an assassination while driving his car near Khirbet al-‘Ads. Six bystanders were injured in the attack, two of them minors who suffered serious injuries.
    ‘Adel Ghazi Isma’il Hanneyeh
    28 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.
    ‘Atef Marwan Muhammad Abu Ras
    21 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.
    Amjad Anwar Badawi ‘Arafat
    36 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.
    Saber Muhammad Nasr Abu ‘Aasi
    22 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 15.07.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed with three of his friends while driving in a car.
    Iyad Hussein S’ud a-Najar
    30 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 08.12.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed during a targeted killing while sitting in the yard of Kadas’s house with two other friends.
    ————————————————
    I thought the citizens of Gaza were free after the settlers were dismantled?
    ————————————————
    Muhammad Ahmad Muhammad Kandil
    47 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 27.10.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car with three other persons. Two other persons were killed, and eighteen were injured.
    Shadi Soheil Sakeb Mahana
    26 year-old resident of Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, killed on 27.10.2005 in Jabalya Refugee Camp, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car with three other persons. Two other persons were killed, and eighteen were injured.
    Rawad Fathi Rabah Farhat
    17 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 25.09.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car.
    Nasser Muhammad Hassan Barhum
    37 year-old resident of Rafah Refugee Camp, killed on 25.09.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car.
    Nafez Muhammad ‘Abd al-Qader Abu Hussein
    28 year-old resident of Gaza city, killed on 25.09.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car.
    Muhammad Khalil ‘Abd a-Latif a-Sheikh Khalil
    32 year-old resident of Rafah Refugee Camp, killed on 25.09.2005 in Gaza city, by gunfire, from a helicopter. He was the object of a targeted killing. Additional information: Killed while driving in a car.
    http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=19&region=GAZA
    Amen to you Bay area folks for speaking out.

    Reply

  14. PissedOffAmerican says:

    123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
    http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/stats/children.html#source
    1,062 Israelis and at least 4,876 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
    http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/stats/deaths.html#source

    Reply

  15. ... says:

    We represent the voices of Jews in the Bay Area and across the world who condemn Israel’s current massacre of the people of Gaza…
    http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/01/13/18562541.php

    Reply

  16. ... says:

    IDF are mass murdering at present in gaza.. i guess the freedom and democracy israel and the usa represent just isn’t understood properly else palestinians would be greeting those IDF soldiers with open arms… just like they were supposed to in iraq with the usa troops…. do either of you two know how to spell quagmire??? do you know what it means? propping up an ideologically empty regime that relies on war and an expanding military complex is essentially what some are doing by justifying IDF mass murdering and USA support for same…

    Reply

  17. Avner says:

    Freedom of speech. intellectual freedom. Freedom as live and let live and freedom to protest. And yes, the Arabs have a lot against it. Isn’t that what’s al-Qaida is all about?
    Ask the religious minorities, ask the gays, and ask the political opposition there.
    The truth hurts, hah?

    Reply

  18. Paul Norheim says:

    These freedom haters residing inside Gaza really enjoy their
    prison right no, don`t you think?

    Reply

  19. Paul Norheim says:

    Yeah, the Palestinians hate freedom, freedom and… eh…freedom.
    Thanks for reminding us of this, Avner.

    Reply

  20. Avner says:

    Palestinians don’t hate America because of Israel; they hate Israel because of America and the ideology they both represent- freedom, liberty and democracy.
    Don’t forget- U.S is the big Satan when Israel is only the small Satan.

    Reply

  21. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Tony, can you point me in the direction of a source, article, or media account of Hamas “mass murder” that comes close to parity with the amount of Palestinians killed by Israel over the course of the last few years?
    Or, even an example of Hamas “mass murder”, irregardless of the Palestinian death toll.

    Reply

  22. TonyForesta says:

    Gripping commentary alan.
    You are passionately pro Palestinain whoeveryouare. I respect and honor you positions, and regardless of what you might think, it pains deeply me to see the unnecessary and brutal slaughter of innocents in the Gaza. I am ashamed, not just for Israel, and for America, but for humanity.
    But the fault lies on both sides, and just because the gaza massmurder gangs are not as successful as Israel at massmurdering innocent, – does not mean they do not attempt massmurder on a daily basis. Impotent, but relentless rocket attacks aside, Mossad and Shin Bet take down 60 massmurder operations inside Israel for every one that succeeds. It is a constanct unseen battle, which I’m certain you are well aware.
    My true hope is that the Palestinian people will recognize that hamas’ machoman and totally impotent and futile massmurder operations against Israel will never succeed, and will always result in the kind of wanton slaughter of innocent Palestinains we witness to today.
    Note that the west (right or wrong) will always favor the side of Israel as we are predisposed in these directions, and the islam will (right or wrong) will always be viewed as a threat because the preeminance of massmurderers in jihadist islam abrogating the larger message of islam. If there is a peaceful or moderate or progressive islam – where is it? Why do we never hear from any islamic leadership advancing peaceful, or moderate, or progressive islam? The jihadist dominate the message of islam which the malignant primitive, perverted, mysogonist, psychotic massmurdering message of jihadist islam, – and you (or any muslim) will never find or win any sympathy, empathy, or little concern from anyone in the west under this malignant banner. Forget about. You will never win our hearts and minds on anything including Palestine until islam rejects the freakish malignancy of jihadist islam.
    That said, I would hope and pray that moderates or even those more radical elements in Palestine would recognize the futility and onesidedness (I’m not justifying it, or saying it is right, – I’m just stating a horrible fact) of this bloody confrontation and urge the massmurderers in hamas to shoulder their weapons and rockets, and allow aid and relief to come into the Gaza.
    All sides need to change. Israel is loosing the battle spiritually, intellectually, and legally. Palestine is loosing the battle spiritually and intellectually and physically. It is time to look to the legal means to resolve this issue.
    Put down you weapons and give peace and a real negotiated settlement a chance to work. Put and keep down your weapons totally, whoeveryouare and urge the massmurderers in hamas to put the best interests of the Palestinian people above their machoman jihadi insanity and psychotic bloodlust.
    Moderate in Israel, America, among your neighbors in the regioin and across the world want and will work to resolve this difference and construct a workable twostate solution. It is in everyones bests interests to resolve this horrible conflict permanently – but there will never be any support, and there will always be a fierce determination to destroy jihadi massmurderers and jihadist islam.
    That freakish perverted primitive insane mysogonistic massmurdering barbarity will never be accepted or tolerated by any civilized and certainly any western society, or nation. NEVER! You’re are all doomed if you follow this unholy vector.
    Peace my sister or brother whoeveryouare.

    Reply

  23. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “There’s no real question that crimes were committed here by {Obama’s] predecessor,”
    Of course there isn’t. But Obama has already stated that he does not feel that Bush commited “grave and intentional breaches of the President’s authority” enough to warrant impeachment. This is really a fourfold statement from Obama. One, he doesn’t feel that a violation of law is a “grave and intentional breach of the President’s authority”. Two, that a president need not be held to the letter of the law. Three, that his oath of office to protect and uphold the Constitution is little more than quaint archaic ritual that means nothing. And fourth, that as President, he can, at will, break the law, because to do so is not a “grave and intentional breach of the President’s authority”.

    Reply

  24. Sandy says:

    “Hope” and “Change”. What has THAT got to do with constantly
    looking the other way….Nancy Pelosi’s excuse wrt impeachment
    hearings.
    Some things seem NEVER to change. So much for “hope”….for
    resolving this Isr/Pal. mess…..or anything else that requires real
    courage…and honesty. A telling example:
    (from Raw Story):
    Turley: Obama ‘owns’ Bush ‘war crimes’ if he looks the other way
    David Edwards and Muriel Kane
    Published: Tuesday January 13, 2009
    President George W. Bush’s offhand acknowledgement in an
    interview Sunday with Fox’s Brit Hume that he personally
    authorized the waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed may
    create thorny legal and moral problems for incoming President
    Barack Obama.
    Constitutional law professor Jonathan Turley told MSNBC’s Keith
    Olbermann on Monday, “We now have President Bush speaking
    quite candidly that he was in the loop, we have Dick Cheney
    who almost bragged about it. The question for Barack Obama is
    whether he wants to own part of this by looking the other way.”
    Obama told ABC’s George Stephanopoulos on Sunday, “We have
    not made final decisions, but my instinct is for us to focus on
    how do we make sure that moving forward we are doing the
    right thing. That doesn’t mean that if somebody has blatantly
    broken the law, that they are above the law. But my orientation’s
    going to be to move forward.”
    “If waterboarding is torture — and Barack Obama has said that it
    is torture,” Turley emphasized, “and torture is a war crime, then
    the president has committed a war crime if he did order
    waterboarding. You have to do some heavy lifting to avoid the
    simplicity of that logic.”
    Turley noted that individual CIA officers who carried out torture
    may be able to invoke the so-called “Gestapo defense” — that
    they only followed orders they were assured were legal — but
    that defense does not hold for those who gave the orders.
    “It only works if you can reasonably rely on the advice, and it
    generally does not protect people like Bush,” Turley explained.
    “You really can’t go out and get radical or extreme lawyers, like
    John Yoo and Viet Dinh, and get them to enable you to do things
    that you know is a war crime.”
    “There’s no real question that crimes were committed here by
    {Obama’s] predecessor,” concluded Turley, “and he can either
    begin his administration as a man of principle, and allow the law
    to take us wherever it may lead, or he will inherit the same type
    of moral relativism that really corrupted the previous
    administration. I’m going to say a silent prayer for principle.”
    This video is from MSNBC’s Countdown, broadcast Jan. 12, 2009.

    Reply

  25. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “The footage of Gazans dancing in the streets has been proven to be from another event completely unrelated to Sept. 11. or the
    U.S”
    The irony here is that Mossad agents WERE dancing as the towers fell. On the streets of New York. Promptly detained, held, then quietly sent back to Israel under the veil of a media blackout.

    Reply

  26. alan says:

    We seem to be relying on the analysis free reporting of the US media which is pro-Israeli and Al Jazeera and its colleagues who are pro-Gaza/Hamas/Arab. So we are as open to accepting propaganda as are the Arabs. I guess the truth for both sides is to too difficult to grasp. The Israelis are so threatened that they use F 16s, Apache helicopters, smart bombs, drones, etc etc to level the playing field – levelling it in the most bizarre sense. They do it with the sort of self-justification that sounds so eerily like Nazi propaganda in the 30s. Hamas uses rockets, smuggles arms through tunnels, locates itself among the civil populace highlighting urban warfare in which women and children are sacrificed because they are threated by Israeli war technology.
    Neither side has ant right to claim to be members of the civilised world. But there’s an election in Israel????

    Reply

  27. Outraged American says:

    The footage of Gazans dancing in the streets has been proven to
    be from another event completely unrelated to Sept. 11. or the
    U.S.
    This oft repeated lie is much like the U.S. media’s distortion of
    Ahmadinejad’s statement, which was that Israel would “vanish
    from the pages of time” not “wiped off the map.” Ahmadinejad
    was alluding to the collapse of other nations under the weight of
    their own hubris, and a correct and full translation would have
    made that obvious.
    But our U.S. media relies on outfits like Zionist outfits like MEMRI
    (co-founded by “Clean Break” co-author, Meyrev Wurmser) for
    all their talking points on the Middle East. MEMRI deliberately
    mistranslates and distorts every statement coming out of any
    “enemy” of Israel, imagined or real.
    In the meantime, Israelis are sipping Pepsi on top of a hill
    overlooking Gaza while enjoying the U.S. taxpayer-funded
    carnage.
    This as their Prime Minister openly mocks the U.S. Sec. of State,
    and Israel “the only democracy in the Middle East” bans Arab
    parties. Oh, I forgot, “Tipsy” Livni, possibly the next Prime
    Minister of “the only democracy in the Middle East” talks about
    expelling all Israeli Arabs.

    Reply

  28. ... says:

    tony, i urge you to read the link in steves post at the top if you haven’t already…
    Through bitter experience, when we hear demands for “recognition” of Israel as a precondition to dialogue, what we hear is a call for acquiescence in its crimes against us, validating the injustices that have been wrought in its name.
    Our spirit to fight on is the legacy of collective suffering: With tens of thousands dead or wounded by decades of the “peace process,” you cannot find a family in Palestine — Muslim or Christian, Hamas, Fatah, PFLP or Islamic Jihad — without a son or daughter killed, injured, jailed or tortured, or which does not count itself or its kin among the millions of refugees living in U.N. camps.
    Hamas is not a handful of leaders. Israel may kill all of the current leadership in this round of violence, including me, and its organic, social infrastructure will not go away. We are, simply put, a homegrown national liberation resistance movement, with millions of people who support our struggle for freedom and justice.

    Reply

  29. ... says:

    tony foresta quote >>I never said I support Israels’ actions in the Gaza. Nor do I support hamas massmurder operations and operators.<<
    tony, for the record at present it is the IDF that have been mass murdering palestinians in gaza, not hamas in israel.. many of your comments are nothing more then propaganda – dishonest in not reflecting what is going on at this time in gaza or israel..
    most good writers will put key comments early in the story they are making… i look at this statement of yours as being dishonest.. perhaps a more polite way to put would be that it’s upside down to what is actually taking place on the ground in gaza/israel as we speak.. we may have some things in common, however i tend to perceive the main thrust of your posts here in direction opposition to what i know to be happening.. this quote of yours at the top reflects my impression once again…

    Reply

  30. Syed Qamar Afzal Rizvi says:

    Tony,
    It is good engough, much enough and all enough to humbly satify the antiwar-therapists that you do not agree with the dictum of the US war on terror. Yes, by all means,this terminology of the neoconservatives seems to have suffiently served the evidence that by waging this very kind of metaphyiscal war(unique in the history of mankind), the noeliberals/neocons appear to have posed daunting paradoxes/challenges in the American history.

    Reply

  31. Philippe says:

    A question about the picture : I see on the F16 ‘s a total of 8 “palestians ?” victory stickers.
    How did they get them ?
    I didn’t know the Hamas or Fatah had an airforce !
    Nor a clash where 8 airplanes have been downed .
    Someone know how they got them on ?

    Reply

  32. TonyForesta says:

    It is as though people have selective hearing or blinders and only see and hear what they want to see or hear, and mindlessly take words out of context, and mangle the actual message to confrom to preconcieved opinions. I never said I support Israels’ actions in the Gaza. Nor do I support hamas massmurder operations and operators. I happen to believe, and have repeated this claim many times, that President Carter is correct in claiming, that Israels actions in the Gaza and the West Bank amount to aparthied, and must change if Israel ever hopes or intends to have any real peace for Israeli’s.
    The sticking point here is always from the otherside – that Israel does not have the right to exist, and while there can be compelling arguments offered pointing to the injustice of the origination of the state of Israel other past historical realities, – they are only, and nothing more that arguments at this point, and only words of hollow futility going into the future.
    Israel does exist. Israel will continue to exist. The question is if a viable Palestine will ever exit.
    Israel and Israeli’s contribute in many positive ways to the global community. I am not excusing the negative or aparthied policies of Israel or the zionist (whom I condemn and abhor), but only pointing out a glaring reality and fact, – that Israel is a viable democracy, a function civilized society that contributes and provides many positive products and services to the community of nations.
    What arab nation offers anything beyond oil, armies, weapons, martyrs, and massmurderers? In other words what positive contribution does the arab world offer to the community of nations?
    Please tell me. I am begging to know. I have asked question repeatedly for years and always and continually there is never an answer. I recieve nothing but haunting silence and silly personal insults.
    I know and have lived and partied with many Israeli’s. All of them have served in the IDF. None of them are zionist or align with any zionist goals. They want peace. They just want to live their lives in peace without the constant threat of some jihadi freak blowing up a buss, or wedding party, or attacking a school or a disco. They do not have any tolerance for hamas, or hezbollah, or islamic jihad, or any of the regions massmurder gangs, – but they
    differentiate the massmurder gangs from the people they represent. So do I.
    I also lived with both a druse and a muslim from Lebanon, and have partied with muslims from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and the Phillipines.
    No can ever change my total condemnation for the fascists in the bushgov, and anyone familiar with my commentary will know this truth as clear and obvious. I want cheney and bush and every pathological liar in the bushgov tried, sent to jail or hung, for crimes, treasons, grotesque dereliction of duty, criminal incompetence, betrayal and undermining of the Constitution, wanton profiteering, and systemic deception.
    None of you are able to appreciate the hard fact that the bushgov ruthlessly and ghoulishly exploited the Pearlharborlikeevent of 9/11 as an excuse to prosecute the socalled GWOT, which is not actually a war against anyone or anything – but a deceptive excuse for marauding the worlds oil resources by establishing a permanent significant military presense in the respective regions both in Iraq to control Iraq’s oil and the Gulf of Oman distribution points, and in Afghanistan to erect an oil and energy corridor in the in the Caucasus to maraud oil out of the Caspian and circumvent Russia.
    None of the bushgovs military misadventures have anything to do with 9/11 (which I am certain was an inside job and either directly or indirectly involved the bushgov leadership and specifically and particularly cheney and bush and the bush crime family cabals), or defeating evildoers, or democratization, or liberation, or any of the countless systemic endless stream of lies pimped and bruted by the bushgov propagandists and disinformation warriors. The bushgov’s military misadventures and predation are ALL ABOUT THE OIL, and WANTON PROFITEERING. NOTHING ELSE. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE OIL. PERIOD.
    That said, every single jihadi massmurderer and all those who aid and abet them on earth, must be mercilessly hunted, captured, or preferrably killed.
    With regard to Palestine, I’ve also said a hundred times that nothing is ever going to change, because all the pertinent leaderships want and are drenched in oceans of innocent blood. All they want is blood, and until at least one group of leaders reject the rabid patholigical thirst for innocent blood as a means of political domination, – there will never be any peace in the region, or anywhere else on this wild and violent earth.
    All our leaders drink and bath in the blood of innocents. Until that unholy truth changes somewhere on earth, – Tragically – high ho, high ho – it’s off to slaughtering innocents and neverendingwars we go.

    Reply

  33. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Gads Tony, you’ve got Kotz sticking up for you.
    Ouch.

    Reply

  34. Paul Norheim says:

    Yeah, Tony, you should visit kotzabasis`blog. At least he is
    consequent in his views, including his praise of Bush and Cheney.

    Reply

  35. kotzabasis says:

    TonyForesta
    You are wasting your time arguing–with the political infants of TWN who still get their thrills from merry-go-round rides–on the issue of the great threat that jihadists pose to the West and to the survival of Israel, which is an outpost of Western civilization in the midst of barbarians, and as to why the U.S. must fight and subdue these fanatic holy warriors by a “reasonable effort”, which regrettably translates by all means because of the kind of enemy one is egaged with. Instead let them play with their ‘leaden’ toy soldiers and their ‘silk’ dressed toy dolls, according to their preferences.

    Reply

  36. Paul Norheim says:

    “I reject the “war” language completely.”
    But you are a strong supporter of the not-war going on in gaza
    right now, right?
    And if we focus on the huge percentage of civilians killed and
    maimed in those not-wars against the jihadists, you characterize
    us as “whiners”?
    It`s easy to see why you “reject the “war” language “completely”.
    Are you familiar with a writer called George Orwell?

    Reply

  37. TonyForesta says:

    I have huge problem with the GWOT Mr. Norheim. The very idea is absurd. There is no way to conduct a war on terror, just as there no way to conduct a war on hate, or a war on prejudice.
    I reject the “war” language completely. I reject invasions and occupations and huge mechanized military force levels, and concomitant permanent or enduring bases in foriegn lands and all the wanton profiteering that naturally results.
    What I do agree with is that jihadist islam is a threat, that every reasonable effort must be applied to eliminate that threat, and that global coordinated highly sophisticated high tech police actions (utilizing military assets, networks, and systems) and covert and special operations are necessary to eliminate 4th generation warfare threat like jihadist islamic massmurder gangs, and all those who aid and abet them.
    I know it is convenient to buy into the bushgov fictions and myths and churn all the warmaking into one GWOT slurry, – but there are fundamental differences, with both tactical and strategically differing objectives, and different approaches to intelligent use of military force.
    The socalled GWOT is a bushgov propaganda and disinformation devise to cloak and shadow the actual policies and mask or deceptively justify the wanton profiteering.

    Reply

  38. rich says:

    wigwag @ 7:02PM –
    Till: “As Lawrence Wright often remarks, “if the Israeli-Palestinian crisis were resolved tomorrow,” bin Laden “would be heartbroken.” The conflict remains his bread and butter.”
    wigwag: “Repeating a canard over and over again doesn’t make it true. If there is empirical evidence to suggest this is accurate Wright or Till should cite it.”
    He cited Wright. And it’s not a canard. We’ve cited multiple contemporary and historical cases. Ignoring the evidence doesn’t make it go away.
    Muhamad Atta was motivated by Israel’s bombing of civilians in a UN building in ’96. Of COURSE bin Laden thrives off the Isr-Pal conflict–Atta joined up with him and flew a jet into the World Trade Center because of Israel’s military offensive.
    10,000 Afghanis signed up to fight in Gaza against Israel (how many get there I don’t know)–because Israel bombed civilians. Two Israeli merchants were shot in Germany last week.
    “Iraqi cleric Muqtada al-Sadr called on Iraqis to kill US troops in Iraq in revenge for the Israeli assault on the people of Gaza. “I call upon the honest Iraqi resistance to carry out revenge operations against the great accomplice of the Zionist enemy…”
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hwK_CSpBxsNuVUEaDuOwmSSCiqGwD95IHRT80
    Give it up, wigwag.
    Soren Schmidt:
    “Israel’s attack on Hamas in Gaza has led to Syria breaking off the semi-official peace negotiations with Israel, the strengthening of Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s popularity, the weakening of the pro-western governments of Egypt and Jordan, and an upswing in recruits ready to join the many extremist groups in the Middle East.”

    Reply

  39. Paul Norheim says:

    “Every jihadi massmurderer, every imam, every cleric, every
    follower, everyone on earth who aids and abets jihadist islam
    must be hunted, captured, or preferrably killed.”
    With other words, Tony, you have no problem with the massive
    “global war on terror” required for that operation – the only
    problem being that the industries making and providing the
    weapons to that war are making profits – instead of being
    idealists, doing it for free?

    Reply

  40. ... says:

    tony thanks for the upside down view… it’s good to have someone explaining why insanity is necessary to stop insanity.. i knew you could do it!

    Reply

  41. TonyForesta says:

    Any attempt to defend any action by Israel here will automatically result in a swarm personal insults and slime, and the message itself will be lost in all the anti-Israel chari-vari.
    Palestinains were dancing in the streets of Gaza after 9/11 cheering the slaughter of innocent Americans and the destruction of icons of American power. It does not matter one bit, whose planes Israel fly’s, or that the majority of Americans do not support Israels actions in the Gaza, or the a former US President, Jimmy Carter has defined Israels policies in Palestine as aparthied – Palestinians will loathe and want to kill American anyway because their leaders are jihadi mass murderers. Read Hamas’ charter.
    America funds and arms Israel as a hedge to the hostile Arab nations in the region. The fact that other Arab nations, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt ALSO have huge American weapons arsenals and purchase and employ massive amounts of American warfighting materials, assets, and services is ignored, – while all the intention is focuse on Israel who actions (right or wrong, extreme or not) are intended to justifiably protect and defend Israelis and Israel.
    Now there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth as swarms of proPalestinian killer bee’s start buzzing about zionism and the fact that Israel does not deserve to exist, and should never have existed, and other such visionary hopes and fantasies and there will be numerous meaningless and silly insults flung at me personally wild claims of simplemindedness, and racism other such jibberish – but what will not be addressed is that Israel does exist, and will continue to exist, – and that the jihadi militants of hamas, and the jihadi roots of the hamas, and any arab nation that abides or aligns with the primitive, perverted massmurdering maglignancy of jihadists islam – will always be met with overwhelming fire and bombs, missiles, rockets, bullets, if necessary other more horrible weapons. Always. Jihadist islam must be burnt from the face of the earth. Every jihadi massmurderer, every imam, every cleric, every follower, everyone on earth who aids and abets jihadist islam must be hunted, captured, or preferrably killed.
    Hamas is jihadi, read their charter. Israel, and America has every right to strike and destroy every jihadi threat. We can argue about the means, and I personally deplore invasions and occupations, and large military warprofiteering operations, – every jihadi threat is a legitimate target anywhere on earth, at any time.

    Reply

  42. Paul Norheim says:

    “Repeating a canard over and over again doesn’t make it true. If
    there is empirical evidence to suggest this is accurate Wright or
    Till should cite it.”
    WigWag, do you remember my quotes from bin Laden speeches
    the other day? If I had the time, I could quote loads of evidence
    that you`re wrong, but I consider it a waste of time to argue
    against such an obvious misjudgment.
    On thing is the cynicism of certain Arab leaders (and leaders of
    religio-political movements). I think you confuse this with the
    potential the Israel/Palestine conflict has to fuel the anger on the
    streets. Leaders obviously know and use this for their advantage.

    Reply

  43. Paul Norheim says:

    And I would like to apologize for one of my frequent typos: the
    name was not (Bill) Cristol, but Kristol – who commented on
    Obama in today`s New York Times:
    “With respect to the Middle East, Obama didn’t even say we’d
    gotten much wrong in the past. Asked by Stephanopoulos
    whether his policy would build on Bush’s or would be a clean
    break, Obama answered, “if you look not just at the Bush
    administration, but also what happened under the Clinton
    administration, you are seeing the general outlines of an
    approach.” So: No break.”
    Thus the “bipartisan” enthusiasm before the inauguration: even
    the neocons have become Obama fans.

    Reply

  44. WigWag says:

    “Both sides of the heated conflict – those vehemently pro-Israeli and those more sympathetic to Palestinian views – seem anxious to find out where the next president will fall on the issue come January 20th.”
    You won’t need to wait until January 20th to see what Obama thinks, you just have to wait until tomorrow (Tuesday) about 10:00 (Eastern Standard Time). That’s when Obama’s choice for Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton will have her confirmation hearing. I understand it will be broadcast on C-SPAN. You can count on the fact that she will get plenty of questions about what’s going on in Gaza.
    Anyone with half a brain knows how Obama is going to play this. He will defend Israel’s right to defend itself; he will blame Hamas for firing rockets; he will express regret about all the civilian casualties and he will explain why it’s more important than ever to push for a comprehensive settlement.
    “As Lawrence Wright often remarks, “if the Israeli-Palestinian crisis were resolved tomorrow,” bin Laden “would be heartbroken.” The conflict remains his bread and butter.”
    Repeating a canard over and over again doesn’t make it true. If there is empirical evidence to suggest this is accurate Wright or Till should cite it. The reality is that this statement is just about as true as the fact that the New York sewers are crawling with alligators.

    Reply

  45. varanasi says:

    i apologize for the typo above. last word in my post above should have been media.

    Reply

  46. Paul Norheim says:

    “america’s support of israel is widely reported in the indian india.”
    In Europe as well. Everybody her know that America has the
    power to stop the israeli slaughter of Palestinians, the
    settlements, etc, and that America has chosen not to do so.
    Hope? When you consider the fact that Bush, Cheney and Bill
    Cristol have been generous with nice words, even enthusiastic
    praise for Barack Obama lately, there may be plenty of hope, but
    not for the Palestinians, to paraphrase Franz Kafka.

    Reply

  47. varanasi says:

    i am SO glad that i am not inundated with western media – although these days every newspaper is just a click away. still, i think foreign news coverage is fascinating.
    america’s support of israel is widely reported in the indian india.

    Reply

  48. ... says:

    mass murdering of palestinians by the idf, funded by the american taxpayer… you wouldn’t know it reading usa mainstream media…

    Reply

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