Seeing Through a Bad UN Resolution?

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Col. Pat Lang (US Army, Ret.) has one of the most interesting national security/military policy blogs around. It’s tough-minded and unsentimental.
This morning, he sent some of his friends a roster of four issues and questions to consider when debating the so-called US-French agreement on and Israel-Hezbollah ceasefire.
They were:

1. France and the United States are not at war with each other. They cannot agree to end the fighting.
2. Hizbullah thinks it is winning both tactically and strategically. Why will it agree to anything other than a cease-fire in place?
3. Such a cease-fire will be a victory for Hizbullah.
4. Who will disarm Hizbullah if it accepts such a cease-fire?

These are good questions — but the first resonates with me most. It’s not clear that the US and France are willing to use their leverage to wrestle the warring parties down.
Where I disagree with Pat Lang is that a ceasefire is necessary to build alternative possibilities for regional deal-making and that whether such a ceasefire is perceived to be a victory for Hezbollah or not, it gives all parties the opportunity to stand down and for Arab states and Israel to consider the abyss they all could plunge into if fundamental problems aren’t resolved — particularly progress on the establishment of Palestine — but also the declawing of Hezbollah.
Have to run and catch a plane to Colorado. I will meet those who have emailed tomorrow morning in Aspen.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

118 comments on “Seeing Through a Bad UN Resolution?

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    Reply

  2. alec says:

    but i thought that the mainstream media is feeding us a one-sided view of the events transpiring in lebanon? isn’t the press in the pocket of “isrmerica,” carroll?
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3288406,00.html

    Reply

  3. Marky says:

    I do wish Israel would disappear from the US welfare rolls. Let Israel take care of Israel. I don’t want an ally that repeatedly spies on our military, steals our nuclear technology to sell to the Soviet Union, sells our missile tech to China, attacks and sinks a flag-flying US ship, etc.
    Israel is not our enemy, but they are a piss poor ally.
    Time to let them loose.
    Furthermore, I do not share their racist values, in which one Israeli soldier is worth 500 Lebanese + 1 million dollars.

    Reply

  4. Carroll says:

    MP…
    I do wish you wouldn’t ascribe comments to me I haven’t made…for example I have never said Israel should disappear…my stand on Israel is they can exist or not exist based on their own actions…
    Israel is not my concern, I have no interest there or any attachments to it. While I feel sorry for the innocents there and the peaceful population, my concern is for my own country and mankind in general and I consider the Israeli influence a threat to my country and thru my country a threat to other countries.
    I can think of no reason I should support Israel either before or after their latest showing. I don’t feel any guilt over the holocuast or think the US was in any way responsible for it..the responsible ones are the ones who actually did it..not the rest of the world.
    And…”People are ALWAYS acting from their history; they can’t help it”…wrong. You “can” help what you do. “I can’t help it” is a typical child’s or loser addict’s whine.
    I am not going to support what I think is wrong and I am not going to take on the Jews or Israel’s enemies, they made them, they can cope with them. They aren’t my enemies.
    You never have explained your interest in Israel btw…exactly what is your interest in your support of Israel? I have been very open in explaining who I am and why I believe what I do about the US/Isr involvement…let us hear where your views come from.

    Reply

  5. Carroll says:

    MP…
    I do wish you wouldn’t ascribe comments to me I haven’t made…for example I have never said Israel should disappear…my stand on Israel is they can exist or not exist based on their own actions…
    Israel is not my concern, I have no interest there or any attachments to it. While I feel sorry for the innocents there and the peaceful population, my concern is for my own country and mankind in general and I consider the Israeli influence a threat to my country and thru my country a threat to other countries.
    I can think of no reason I should support Israel either before or after their latest showing. I don’t feel any guilt over the holocuast or think the US was in any way responsible for it..the responsible ones are the ones who actually did it..not the rest of the world.
    And…”People are ALWAYS acting from their history; they can’t help it”…wrong. You “can” help what you do. “I can’t help it” is a typical child’s or loser addict’s whine.
    I am not going to support what I think is wrong and I am not going to take on the Jews or Israel’s enemies, they made them, they can cope with them. They aren’t my enemies.
    You never have explained your interest in Israel btw…exactly what is your interest in your support of Israel? I have been very open in explaining who I am and why I believe what I do about the US/Isr involvement…let us here where your views come from.

    Reply

  6. marky says:

    MP,
    By any measure, Israel was at least in part created to appease terrorist religious fanatics. They didn’t “lose” anything in 1947. The Jews owned a tiny fraction of the land in Palestine, and were until 1920 a miniscule fraction of the population.268

    Reply

  7. alec says:

    btw, i’m working for aipac, zoa, karl rove and the state department.
    bwahahaha…

    Reply

  8. alec says:

    “And that is why bottom line, at this time, you are either for American interest or Israeli interest…you cannot be for both because it is as obvious as the nose on your face that our ties with Israel and the pro israeli firsters behind this are damaging America and Americans.”
    have you ever had an original thought, carel?
    either with “us” or against “us”, huh?
    sounds like someone else i know…
    how GWB of you. what a fricken simpleton you are.

    Reply

  9. MP says:

    Matt: Europe? Hahaha.
    Marky: Preposterous? Eye of the beholder. Even-handedness? By any measure, the Jews lost much more than the Palestinians.
    POA: Wish it away? Sure, any number of people on this list. Carroll for one. Father Ted for another. I’m sure you’ve been reading. If you’d like, I’ll try and find you one instance.
    POA II: Traitor? Yes, he called me one, too. And now Carroll has as well. Come to think of it, you have too (but not recently). You also like to impute dark motives to my…asking a question! Because…who the fuck knows? Only you, I guess.
    Carroll: People are ALWAYS acting from their history; they can’t help it. Retribution isn’t what I was talking about, however. I do not support America sacrificing itself for Israel. Our money should be used first to help our citizens. Nor would I support our sending troops to do Israel’s bidding. We did that for Lebanon and lost a few hundred. And we did do that for Kuwait. We haven’t yet done it for Israel IMO. It would be interesting to tote up the amount of moolah–not to mention the military we’ve put at risk–to protect that paragon of American values, Saudi Arabia. And we’ve been on tenterhooks for 50 or so years in Korea, more so recently, to protect…that oh so American land of South Korea?
    In any event, I think there’re probably good reasons for lending support to foreign countries of various types that are too complicated to try to go into here. I can’t tell you how much should go to whom; it’s not my expertise, nor have I sat down with my calculator.

    Reply

  10. alec says:

    … and carroll has NEVER been within 1000 miles of israel.
    priceless.
    so many opinions based on so little experience.
    what about you, pissed off fascist, ever been to disneyland?

    Reply

  11. alec says:

    “Thanks alex…every time I see one of your post I know you know you are losing the battle..it’s what keeps me encouraged.”
    the battle?! you and your lot are completely insane. doomed to continued political oblivion. tell me carroll, what are you winning, huh???
    a bunch of empowered nincompoops posting on the comments section of some fringe blog. lashing out at their supposed political allies. like i said, lyndon larouche in ’08, or maybe david duke.
    pathetic.
    refreshing your internet browser every 5 minutes does not an electoral majority make.

    Reply

  12. Carroll says:

    MP..well you are right I do see Israel as slightly racist..and I do think that is because of their zionist foundings. And I do think the PR claptrap about how they are a democracy like the US is claptrap…our founders specifically made sure America would not be defined by religion. And it took us a while to get around to not defining it on race, but we finally acheived that too. If Israel wants to claim they are a democracy and share anything cultural with America they need to monkey see monkey do.
    But aside from all that… people acting on their history?….with that you are still “doing it”..claiming an exemption from todays’s rules based on past victimhood.
    If we were all allowed to do that the Indians would be assassinating the European whites and demanding payback and the Southerners would be assassinating the Yankees and demanding reperations. Not to mention all the history justifying and acting out that would be going on in between Europeans if that were the case.
    And as for your being a traitor, perhaps that is not a correct description under current definitions or legal sense but answer me this:
    Would you support the US supporting Israel with every resource of the American people, even forcing money from those taxpayers who have no interest in or loyalty to Israel and at the expense of those in America who are more deserving of our taxpayer funds?
    Would you send Americans to fight for Israel in their war for real estate and dominance?
    Are you in favor of the American people going all the way down with, or for Israel in their wars with the Arabs and the Palestines in this, as we all know, faked up and now ginned up war on terriers?
    Because make no mistake, that is what is happening and what will happen if Isrmerica continues this Israeli fetish.
    And that is why bottom line, at this time, you are either for American interest or Israeli interest…you cannot be for both because it is as obvious as the nose on your face that our ties with Israel and the pro israeli firsters behind this are damaging America and Americans.
    If Israel was legitimately in the right it would be a different story…they would be universaly supported….but they aren’t in the right and the rest of the universe and at least 50%+ of Americans recongize this.

    Reply

  13. Pissed Off American says:

    “even though you feel no compunction aboutt calling me a traitor.”
    Gee, MP, now you know how we felt when the monkey boy called us all terrorist sympathizers when we refused to support a number of his policies.
    You know, goose…..gander?

    Reply

  14. Pissed Off American says:

    Yeah, well Carroll, it seems Alec’s swan song of yesterday was just as sincere as David’s was initially. Think its a coincidence?
    And hey, he condones Israel’s actions in Lebanon, and calls ME the sociopath??? Gads, whats up with THAT?

    Reply

  15. Pissed Off American says:

    “don’t you think this is overstating things a bit? come on. i shared a quote that someone sent me, which turned out to be innacurate. i immediately posted an explanation and apologized.”
    Then, you promptly told us how, even if Norman didn’t say it, he undoubtedly feels that way. Point being, you used a fallacy to make a point, than you “atoned” for it by posting an idiotic supposition that in its arrogance was even more despicable than the fallacy. Good job, Alec. I love it when we don’t have to guess as to the nature of someone’s character.
    Look, Alec, if you are so God damned ignorant that you would put such an obviuously false quote up without checking it’s validity, than no amount of apology is gonna fix what ails you, buddy.
    Sorry, but hey, somebody has gotta break the news to ya.

    Reply

  16. Pissed Off American says:

    “if you could I suppose, you’d wish it away never to come back.”
    Yeah, well, thats part of your and Alec’s problem. You do a lot of unsupported supposin’ to create arguments that are made of straw. You constantly accuse people of positions that they have not taken. This business of telling some of us that we do not support Israel’s “right to exist” is horseshit, and you goons fall back on it everytime you can’t do rote on the ‘ol “anti-semite” part of the script.

    Reply

  17. Pissed Off American says:

    “Do you or your learned friends have any comment about the up comming meeting of Arab leaders in Beirut?”
    The Arab leaders should seriously consider another place for thier meeting. Israel would LOVE to get them all in one place for ease of targeting. And what better way to speed up the escalation towards total war in the Middle East than by taking the majority of the Arab leadership in one fell swoop?

    Reply

  18. Marky says:

    To your question number 1, MP, I reply that a country based on the premise of a 2000 year absentee land lease was a preposterous idea, destined to create strife. However, if you accept that ridiculous premise, then the Arabs are 20 times more justified in wanting their more recently stolen land back.
    By the way, I assume that as a matter of even-handedness, you do not favor any further Holocaust reparations, or return of stolen art?
    After all, WWII was SOOOOOO long ago.

    Reply

  19. Matthew says:

    Irony check: MP–if there was a moral need for a Jewish homeland, then it should have been built in Europe. Furthermore, if it so unreasonable for Palestinian refugees from 1948 and their descendants to want to return home now, then why was it “reasonable” for Jews to make that claim after almost 2000 years. So I guess I’m not quite as dismissive as you are of the victims of Jewish colonialization and dispossession.

    Reply

  20. Carroll says:

    Thanks alex…every time I see one of your post I know you know you are losing the battle..it’s what keeps me encouraged.

    Reply

  21. MP says:

    Thanks, Carroll, for your post.
    I can see that my post passed you by a bit. Let me say it more generally: We have to understand and empathize with each others’ histories so that we can all move beyond them. It iis impossible to speak accurately about current events unless they’re placed in the context of history. We act out of our histories and hopefully have the wisdom to overcome those histories and move to a better place. If Israelis knew every nuance of Palestinian history and vice versa, we might engender the will–the desire–for a lasting peace.
    Just as in our personal lives–where people can say things that trigger anger and fear and other emotions–so, too, this happens between peoples and countries. After a while, it’s easy for one to push the other’s buttons, often with disastrous consequences. I don’t say that the consequences are justified, but the “mechanism of action” makes them predictable.
    Hence, many people have noted here and elsewhere that Israel’s bombing is producing many more Hizbollis than there would be otherwise. No doubt, we’ll see some Marionite ones, soon. Is that good for Lebanon or Israel? I think not. Is it predictable? Sure. We’ve all said the same thing about the US producing jihadis in Iraq. And the same thing applies to Israel and the things others say and do to her. She has the biggest stick, but she has it, in her mind, to prevent the very worst from happening again. She’d rather be feared than loved because, frankly, much of the world isn’t going to love her anyway. And hasn’t loved the Jews for a very long time (despite the fact that you think it’s all a bunch of brainwashing). After all, this conflict didn’t begin in 1967.
    In any event, you can total the number of Jews in Israels–about 6 million–and double it to arrive at the number of strong opinions people have about these questions. So I’m not trying to impose my view of things here, or even to say it’s the right one. It’s mine at this moment. As you’ve discovered yourself, Jews will say–with a straight face–the strangest and most contradictory things.
    Moreover, it isn’t my job to defend Israel, but to support her in a loving way. My voice is small, but hopefully I can help encourage her to move in a direction that will lead to peace and help her fulfill the high ideals on which she was founded.
    So as to your specific points, I answer your questions with questions:
    1) How many actual Arab refugees of the 1948 war are still alive? When are they going to give up this nonsense of returning to a country they never lived in? Here’s another: How many years does Israel have to “occupy” its territory before it’s treated like every other nation that killed, evicted, cheated and stole and is now considered the legitimate and indisputed inhabitant of the ground it occupies? 100 years? Good; we only have about 40 years to go.
    2) I’m sure the folks in Hamas and Hizbollah played with teddy bears at one time too. Now they are strapping on suicide belts and lobbing missiles.
    3) I stand by Josh. Evenhandedness can only be measured by where one stands; there’s nothing truly objective about it in the same way that physics is objective. We disagree on this point. No one in these comments has any use for being “objective.” Each person claims the truth as he or she sees it, and those who see it a different way simply aren’t being “objective.”
    There’s a pretense in these comments that if I could come up with the right cite, or the right fact, or the right article, that I could change your mind about the big issues, i.e., Israel’s right to exist, the nature of the country, its motivations, its plans, its desire for peace, the influence of anti-Semitism, etc. But, in fact, you and I have come to very different conclusions, and we aren’t likely to change our views on these fundamental issues.
    You think I’m not looking at the facts. I think your conclusions are loony and completely one-sided. So there you are…
    I’m certainly not going to sit here and defend every one of Israel’s actions, e.g., razing farmland. First of all, I don’t agree with all of their actions, so why should I defend them? POA constantly wants to engage in pissing contests on points like this, but I don’t see any point. But even when you and I might agree on such and such an Israeli action, e.g., bombing the shit out of Lebanon, we will draw very different conclusions about Israel. You denounce it as a racist, zionist entity and, if you could I suppose, you’d wish it away never to come back. I support it as a Jewish homeland, even with all of its flaws. And I feel much the same way, mutatis mutandus, about America even though you feel no compunction aboutt calling me a traitor.

    Reply

  22. alec says:

    1)How many actual victims of Hitler are still alive today? Do you think childen of those victims are entitled to or somehow inherit the get out of jail free privilages of their parents?
    2) We are talking about “Current” actions of the Israelis. I am sure Jeffery Dalmer was a cute child too until he grew up to be a serial killer.
    3) Josh Marshall’s is in no way evenhanded, his site, which I use to read, is slanted toward Israel as one can easily see by the the fact that 9 out of 10 of the featured dairist are Jewish and very pro war Israel. Some time ago, in the interest of disclosure he stated on his site that his wife was jewish, perhaps that is why he cannot be objective. Most of the articles by said diarist are pure AIPAC, even if they are served up with a little umbrella and a cherry on top. Frankly his site has become not worth reading, it is now just a propaganda organ for the Israel firsters.
    Posted by Carroll at August 8, 2006 05:11 PM”
    carol — another complete idiot. i won’t even dignify her post with a response. pathetic, ignorant and yes, obviosuly anti-semitic.
    you and poa, should really look into lyndon larouche’s candidacy.
    imho, you should publicly chastise these sycophantic moron’s, steve.

    Reply

  23. alec says:

    “Who are you, a PROVEN LIAR, to sit in judgement of ANYTHING?”
    heel, doggy. you’re all bark and no bite.
    don’t you think this is overstating things a bit? come on. i shared a quote that someone sent me, which turned out to be innacurate. i immediately posted an explanation and apologized. liar? ha!
    poa, you prove your idiocy on this blog daily… hourly as a matter of fact. must be a busy man, huh?
    but, i hope you find consolation in the fact that you ARE changing the world for the better with your sociopathic contributions here.
    go get ’em slugger.

    Reply

  24. Carroll says:

    MP…Here’s what Josh Marshall claims is his hate mail:
    “August 08, 2006 — 01:23 AM EST // link)
    One of the breezier emails on Israel …
    Over the years I have been a strong supporter of Israel’s right to be. Now I am wondering.
    What kind of neighbor has Israel been? Would you want to live next door?
    How would you like it if your neighbor annexed your land? Locked you up? Lied to you? Periodically threw bombs at your house?
    What if Israel had taken a different path? What if they had been less afraid, less brutal? What if the billions spent on fences and bombs and soldiers had been spent on making sure their neighbors had a piece of the pie?
    What if Israel hadn’t relied on their military might so much? What if they had been the ones to help open health clinics, provide opportunities, help people build a good life (instead of Hezbollah)?
    Maybe it’s time for Israel to change its ways or move on.
    I’m not sure what it means when a country moves on. Where does it go?
    — Josh Marshall
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Now look at Josh’s response…does he address anything in the email..which actually isn’t hateful at all…no…he doesn’t.
    Who is the bigot here?…Josh leaps immediately to condemn the writer by implying his “move on” means he hates Jews and wants Israel to disappear…instead of replying to any of the “what if’s” the writer cited.
    So according to Josh the writer is a jew hater or anti-semite because he questions, based on Israel’s historical actions toward Palestine and the Arabs, whether they should or can continue to exist with their current mentality.
    I think that is a question many people are wondering about, objective people ….can Israel exist if they maintain their current path?…I think not…

    Reply

  25. Carroll says:

    MP….you have to quit hanging on this as an excuse for current Israeli actions…
    “Everyone should know by now that Israel was founded by a people that was largely wiped out in WWII. It has since assimilated millions of people who suffered terrible hardships and discriminations in other countries. Even here, in the land of the free and home of the brave, one of the highest grossing movies is nothing more than an anti-Semite passion play. (Supported by millions of Israel’s so-called Christian “supporters” in what has to be one of the great ironies.) And even here, in the so-called the progressive blogosphere, you find a preternaturally even-handed progressive like Josh Marshall reeling from what I assume is the plethora of anti-Semite, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel emails he receives (see today’s TPM post and others recently on this topic).
    So, given all this, you’d think that people who truly wanted peace, who truly had nothing against Jews, who truly felt that Israel had a right to exist, would lay off incendiary language and actions. You’d think they would see that there truly are two sides to this conflict.”
    1)How many actual victims of Hitler are still alive today? Do you think childen of those victims are entitled to or somehow inherit the get out of jail free privilages of their parents?
    2) We are talking about “Current” actions of the Israelis. I am sure Jeffery Dalmer was a cute child too until he grew up to be a serial killer.
    3) Josh Marshall’s is in no way evenhanded, his site, which I use to read, is slanted toward Israel as one can easily see by the the fact that 9 out of 10 of the featured dairist are Jewish and very pro war Israel. Some time ago, in the interest of disclosure he stated on his site that his wife was jewish, perhaps that is why he cannot be objective. Most of the articles by said diarist are pure AIPAC, even if they are served up with a little umbrella and a cherry on top. Frankly his site has become not worth reading, it is now just a propaganda organ for the Israel firsters.

    Reply

  26. Carroll says:

    I am still watching the Saudis and they say:
    ” Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal said Israeli “aggression and attacks on Lebanon must stop,” adding in comments to Turkey’s Milliyet daily that Riyadh’s patience was wearing thin. “We have been patient for a long time, but our patience is running out … If Israel wants to live in this region it has to learn to stay in peace with the people of the region … They are destroying the whole country because two soldiers were captured. It is a tragedy.”
    Keep it up Israel…I guarentee you despite what the Saudis say about not using their oil..they will when push comes to shove…and then Isrmerica will be dead in the water when the sheeple are paying $10 a gallon while the US uses it’s reserves to ship jet fuel to Israel for the terrier war.

    Reply

  27. Pissed Off American says:

    Feed us another lie, Alec. Thats your answer for “changing the world for the better”.
    Who are you, a PROVEN LIAR, to sit in judgement of ANYTHING?
    Tell us how razing the farmlands helps neutralize Hamas, Alec.

    Reply

  28. vachon says:

    Steve,
    Do you or your learned friends have any comment about the up comming meeting of Arab leaders in Beirut?

    Reply

  29. alec says:

    “Do you really honestly believe that this whole mess that this administration has wrought is going to be reversed by scum like Leiberman, or without an uprising of anger by the general population?? You lament the vitriol, but by the same token you are willing to dishonestly post OBVIOUS FICTION to advance your opinion. I’ll take vitriol over lies anyday of the week, Alec.
    And you want to see the TRUE nature of “scary hatred”?? Take a look at what these murderous bastards in the White House have done in Iraq, or thier “swiftboating” of people that disagree with thier policies, or the ATROCITIES that have been committed in thier satanical hell holes such as Abu Ghraib, or thier hate filled ostracization of the gay community, or their treatment of the blacks in New Orleans.
    Do I hate these bastards like Bush and Cheney??? YOU BET. They personify everything we claim NOT TO BE, and have DESTROYED America’s credibility and moral standing. They are DESTROYING my children’s future. Vitriol??? You ain’t seen NOTHING yet. Wait until the general population finally wakes up the true nature of the neo-cons.
    Posted by Pissed Off American at August 8, 2006 02:21 PM”
    perfect case in point. thanks for yet another example of your invective and vitriol, POA. sounds like you just crawled out of ann coulter’s sphincter.
    but of course, you’re changing this country and the qworld for the better with this toxicity, right? ha.

    Reply

  30. heard him talk says:

    Lanny Davis is not a Liberal. He’s a shrill advocate for Neo-Con ideas. The WSJ would never allow a true Liberal to opine on its pages.

    Reply

  31. MP says:

    “…he quiet parameters of pharasaical etiquette”
    Is this what you teach your kids?

    Reply

  32. elementary teacher says:

    alec — you ask if this (trend)is a positive development for democrats?
    In other words, evil is to be answered within the quiet parameters of pharasaical etiquette, in a world where babies have their heads blown off — the bombs designed, purchased, and shipped by Americans — but never mind,no shouting or cursing.
    Get real.

    Reply

  33. Pissed Off American says:

    What, no “quotes” today, Alec?
    Do you really honestly believe that this whole mess that this administration has wrought is going to be reversed by scum like Leiberman, or without an uprising of anger by the general population?? You lament the vitriol, but by the same token you are willing to dishonestly post OBVIOUS FICTION to advance your opinion. I’ll take vitriol over lies anyday of the week, Alec.
    And you want to see the TRUE nature of “scary hatred”?? Take a look at what these murderous bastards in the White House have done in Iraq, or thier “swiftboating” of people that disagree with thier policies, or the ATROCITIES that have been committed in thier satanical hell holes such as Abu Ghraib, or thier hate filled ostracization of the gay community, or their treatment of the blacks in New Orleans.
    Do I hate these bastards like Bush and Cheney??? YOU BET. They personify everything we claim NOT TO BE, and have DESTROYED America’s credibility and moral standing. They are DESTROYING my children’s future. Vitriol??? You ain’t seen NOTHING yet. Wait until the general population finally wakes up the true nature of the neo-cons.

    Reply

  34. alec says:

    steve:
    do you have any comment on lanny davis’ piece today in the WSJ?
    Liberal McCarthyism
    Bigotry and hate aren’t just for right-wingers anymore.
    BY LANNY J. DAVIS
    Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
    WASHINGTON–My brief and unhappy experience with the hate and vitriol of bloggers on the liberal side of the aisle comes from the last several months I spent campaigning for a longtime friend, Joe Lieberman.
    This kind of scary hatred, my dad used to tell me, comes only from the right wing–in his day from people such as the late Sen. Joseph McCarthy, with his tirades against “communists and their fellow travelers.” The word “McCarthyism” became a red flag for liberals, signifying the far right’s fascistic tactics of labeling anyone a “communist” or “socialist” who favored an active federal government to help the middle class and the poor, and to level the playing field.
    I came to believe that we liberals couldn’t possibly be so intolerant and hateful, because our ideology was famous for ACLU-type commitments to free speech, dissent and, especially, tolerance for those who differed with us. And in recent years–with the deadly combination of sanctimony and vitriol displayed by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Michael Savage–I held on to the view that the left was inherently more tolerant and less hateful than the right.
    more at:
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008763
    unfortunately, i’ve been noticing this trend as well.. and not just in regards to israel and the ME. after all, many of the comments i have read on your blog are filled with vitriol and and personal invective that has in modern history been reserved for and employed by the republicans.
    do you feel that this is a positive development for the democrats? just curious.
    i look forward to a response. thanks.

    Reply

  35. Pissed Off American says:

    Good God. Watching the news, and the film coming out of Lebanon. Lebanon is being razed, systematically bombed back into the stone age. Set back DECADES. Israel is committing an international crime of EPIC proportions, and we are complicit and equally guilty. I am ashamed as never before of the actions, and inaction, of our criminal government, and the devastation that this administration has wrought both domestically and internationally in its six years in power. Who now can claim that these criminals in the White House are acting in the best interests of the United States? How does the clusterfuck in Iraq and our alignment with Israel’s program of mass murder in Lebanon make the United States safer from terrorism, or advance the cause of democracy in the Middle East? Bush and Ohlmert deserve a place in history that places them on the same pages that all of history’s mass murderers are listed. What is occurring today in Lebanon is a travesty, and no American can hold their head high as long as we allow, abet, and condone devastation and murder on this scale. WE are the terrorists. WE are the evil empire. May George Bush, and his satanical masters, ROT IN HELL for what he has done in America’s name.
    Every child that dies in Lebanon today died with our complicity. God forgive us.
    We are no longer what we purport ourselves to be.

    Reply

  36. Den Valdron says:

    Thank you, Elementary School Teacher.

    Reply

  37. Pissed Off American says:

    What amazes me is that all this talk about “bringing peace to the Middle East”. The actions and rhetoric of Israel, and the actions and rhetoric of the Bush Administration telegraph designs that have NOTHING TO DO WITH PEACE. Once again, I must drive home the premise that this thing is DESIGNED to escalate. All this “peace talk” is a charade. By the end of the year we will be engaged in full on war throughout the middle east.

    Reply

  38. Carroll says:

    Interesting article by Juan Cole. Most interesting because it was up on AntiWar.com nearly two years ago to the day, lays out the plan in lebanon as if July 11.
    http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3467
    Posted by sdemetri at August 7, 2006 07:29 PM
    “With both Iraq and Iran in flames, the Likud Party could do as it pleased in the Middle East without fear of reprisal. This means it could expel the Palestinians from the West Bank to Jordan, and perhaps just give Gaza back to Egypt to keep Cairo quiet. Annexing southern Lebanon up to the Litani River, the waters of which Israel has long coveted, could also be undertaken with no consequences, they probably think, once Hizbullah in Lebanon could no longer count on Iranian support. The closed character of the economies of Iraq and Iran, moreover, would end, allowing American, Italian and British companies to make a killing after the wars (so they thought).”
    Yes sdemetri…it is interesting,.. it looks like they reversed their plan and went into Lebanon first…most likely because Bush was stalling on Iran and mired in Iraq and the israelis did this to try to force the desired confrontation with Iran.

    Reply

  39. juan49 says:

    MP wrote:
    “This is the Middle East, and it makes people see the same “facts” in different ways.
    Israel has been reluctant to give up the Golan because it offers a particularly good vantage point for shelling Israel below. And Syria hasn’t done enough to assure Israel it won’t be used that way again. A lot of it has to do, I think, with the nature of Syrian regimes. Maybe that’s over-vigilance on Israel’s part.”
    Granted, MP, that the same facts may be seen in different ways, still we should remain honest when we try to guess the intent behind the actions.As to the Golan, you should answer why Israel has annexed that land, why the Syrian population was expelled (except for few Druze villages) and why it was heavily populated by Israeli settlements, including at leat one town (Katzrin).
    And concerning behaviour of Syrians, consider that they keep their ceasefire agreements with Isarel from 1976 without a single breach, as far as I know.

    Reply

  40. Carroll says:

    Since Steve is still out and about thought I would share Col Lang’s latest:
    8-7-06
    “Arab foreign ministers decided Monday to send a delegation to the United Nations to represent Lebanon’s interests at the Security Council, an aide to Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said.
    The three-man delegation will include the foreign ministers of Qatar, the only Arab member on the Security Council, and the United Arab Emirates, as well as Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa.
    “The Arab delegation will support Lebanon’s position at the United Nations and seek to amend the U.S.-French draft resolution,” the aide told The Associated Press.”
    I have had the privilege of meeting with this gent (AM) on several occasions. I was always about the least important person at the meeting and so was able to concentrate on observing him.
    Several Observations:
    – I would like to have the tapestry that was hanging on the wall in his Foreign Ministry office. (Wonderful tapestries in Egypt!!)
    – He is good at dissimulation but at heart is a very old fashioned Egyptian.
    – He is a Pan-Arab nationalist of the Nasser school. His survival to date in Egyptian government is a monument to his skills as a bureaucrat of vast guile and flexibility.
    – He went from the job of Foreign Minister to the Arab League because he wasn’t as cooperative in matters concerning the US and Israel as his boss (HM) wanted.
    – He does not really like us Americans. (strange)
    Summing up – I like him. I don’t care for foreign leaders who want to be petted all the time and he does not. Is he crooked (money)? Well… Everything is relative. in the ME.
    In short, he is George W. Bush’s idea of an “Arab League” Secretary General from Hell.
    “The Arab delegation will support Lebanon’s position at the United Nations and seek to amend the U.S.-French draft resolution,”
    You can bet your next paycheck on that.
    If the Arab League condemns the resolution ultimately adopted, this will provide “cover” for the Arab rulers to re-position themselves with regard to the Hizbullah/Israel war, and they will do so. Israel’s high handed conduct in Lebanon and GWB’s assumption that he has the rulers under control insures that they will. They are not children to be treated this way.”
    Pat Lang
    …Question…although the Saudis have said they will not use “oil” as a “weapon”…who believes that?.. if it comes right down to a wider ME war? Can anyone envision the Saudis allying themselves with the US and Isr..unless the royals intend to move to the US and give up their thrones?

    Reply

  41. Realist says:

    Remember that old warning about not giving in to terrorists? It’s true!! Israel is what happens when the world gives in to a fanatical band of religious zealots.

    Reply

  42. Pissed Off American says:

    “Israel clearly wants to inflict maximum casualties on the civilians of Lebanon, both directly and indirectly.”
    is this the “horseshit” you’re referring too, POA?
    Posted by alec
    Bombing of Lebanese harbor sinks fishermen’s hope for the future
    Wildlife, boats are destroyed
    By Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times | August 7, 2006
    OUZAI, Lebanon — First, the fish died.
    Just days after Israeli airstrikes destroyed a power plant near the fishing harbor and sent a huge cloud of oil seeping into the sea, Yahia Hamadi began seeing the sheen of their scales on the surface of the water.
    The ones that weren’t dead were contaminated, the fishermen knew, and their poisoned eggs would produce no offspring next year.
    It’s a disaster that will last for years, fishermen here agreed when they stopped in daily to check on their boats during Israel’s relentless bombing campaign in southern Beirut.
    As it happened, the trouble had only begun.
    continues at……
    http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/08/07/bombing_of_lebanese_harbor_sinks_fishermens_hope_for_the_future/

    Reply

  43. Pissed Off American says:

    “i’ll continue occasionally reading steve’s posts and i’ll just ignore the comments.”
    “why i didn’t think of that sooner?”
    Posted by alec
    Hmmm, good question. Lemme think about it, and I’ll get back to ya.

    Reply

  44. Pissed Off American says:

    “i’m at a complete loss for words. quite literally, you come across online as if you are insane.”
    Damn, stll no compliment on my bathrobe?
    Just remember the famous words, spoken last week by Condo Rice during an address at a dinner for homeless gulf war vets…
    “I’ve sent an army of idiots out to do battle on the internet, and I’ve named them all Alec.”
    Honest, she really said that.

    Reply

  45. yahaddasayit says:

    MP,
    So I can’t attribute that “trifle” remark to you? Someone posting under your moniker?
    I’m well aware of our own zealots and their constant craving. But this country was founded within the principle of separation of church and state and we are still holding to it in spite of those who attempt to exploit the simpletons hereabout. You ought to tend to the weeds in your own garden and if you are successful at that we’ll hail you as the heroic human you will have become.

    Reply

  46. elementary teacher says:

    Mr. Valdron! You’re wearing those groovy night vision glasses!
    All seriousness aside, I don’t know from towels — but this blog’s has a bad case of Bambi met Godzilla. I was so relieved when you came by again to guage the devolution of America’s moral compass and all that. I sleep so much better now.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    Dear elementary teacher ..
    All of the above…lol

    Reply

  48. alec says:

    “Actually, I missed it the first time around. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I find it interesting that I cannot discredit it as easily as your post about Norman was discredited. Two googles so far, and I cannot find any concrete evidence that he did not say it, yet nor have I found a source I trust that verifies that he did. But considering the statement he DID make about Israel’s control over our government, it certainly is imaginable that there may be some truth in the assertion that he said it. If you have a reliable refutation of the allegation that he said such a thing, lets see it. In my opinion, from my little research thus far, the jury is still out.”
    POA,
    i’m at a complete loss for words. quite literally, you come across online as if you are insane.
    i have an idea.
    i’ll continue occasionally reading steve’s posts and i’ll just ignore the comments.
    why i didn’t think of that sooner?

    Reply

  49. doug says:

    I dedicate the following quotes to alec and MP …
    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
    — David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
    “There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
    — Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

    Reply

  50. Den Valdron says:

    I don’t know from bathrobes, but that’s a pretty nifty towel.

    Reply

  51. Pissed Off American says:

    “from my perusing of the comments on this blog, i can see that you already know everything about everything and have never been wrong.”
    Thank you very much. Now, if someone will just compliment my bathrobe, my life will be complete.

    Reply

  52. Pissed Off American says:

    just checking back. is the following posted earlier on this thread “horseshit” too? tou didn’t have anything to say in response. hoping it was true?
    “OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES.”
    Actually, I missed it the first time around. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I find it interesting that I cannot discredit it as easily as your post about Norman was discredited. Two googles so far, and I cannot find any concrete evidence that he did not say it, yet nor have I found a source I trust that verifies that he did. But considering the statement he DID make about Israel’s control over our government, it certainly is imaginable that there may be some truth in the assertion that he said it. If you have a reliable refutation of the allegation that he said such a thing, lets see it. In my opinion, from my little research thus far, the jury is still out.

    Reply

  53. Pissed Off American says:

    “Israel clearly wants to inflict maximum casualties on the civilians of Lebanon, both directly and indirectly.”
    is this the “horseshit” you’re referring too, POA?
    Posted by alec
    Uhhm, NO. The horseshit I was referring to is PURPOSELLY misleading and dishonest posts, such as fictitious quotes, or unfounded opinions that are abandoned as soon as we ask for proof of their basis. As a matter of fact, NONE of you Israeli apologists has yet been able to explain Israel’s purposeful razing of Gaza farmlands, and how that helps neutralize Hamas. And the wanton destruction of Lebanon’s infrastructure is all the proof needed to demonstrate that Israel is targeting the Lebanese people in general, and not just Hisbollah.

    Reply

  54. alec says:

    POA:
    just checking back. is the following posted earlier on this thread “horseshit” too? tou didn’t have anything to say in response. hoping it was true?
    “OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES.”
    Now, who said it?
    Was it Hitler?
    Was it Stalin?
    Menachem Begin
    (Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)
    Posted by Sydney at August 7, 2006 02:11 AM

    Reply

  55. Pissed Off American says:

    “and you talk about the “pure horsehit” that gets posted around here?! you might want to check your own stable, cowboy.”
    Posted by alec
    Excuse me, Alec???
    I am not the one posting fictitious quotes, am I?

    Reply

  56. sdemetri says:

    Interesting article by Juan Cole. Most interesting because it was up on AntiWar.com nearly two years ago to the day, lays out the plan in lebanon as if July 11.
    http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=3467

    Reply

  57. elementary teacher says:

    Carroll — drydrunk cowbaby? Now, if you would please, tell me exactly which of the evidentiary bases do you offer in support of that diagnosis?
    1. parses reality in clichéd inanities before banks of public microphones during humanitarian crises
    2. continues reading fairy-story to school children when country is under attack
    3. demonstrates narcissistic sense of entitlement by downsizing US Constitution
    4. presumes to enter Prime Minister’s personal radius to massage *her* neck during luncheon meeting of *top* international leaders
    5. accuses citizens who question his judgment of siding with terrorists

    Reply

  58. Marky says:

    One of the ministers in the Israeli cabinet advocates a total destruction of Lebanon’s infrastructure, alec. This is a war crime, by definition, and would directly and indirectly lead to unbelievable levels of human suffering and loss of life.
    The government of Israel has completely lost its moral compass. The lives of two Israeli soldiers are not worth the life, liberty and property of every single person in Lebanon.

    Reply

  59. alec says:

    “Israel clearly wants to inflict maximum casualties on the civilians of Lebanon, both directly and indirectly.”
    is this the “horseshit” you’re referring too, POA?

    Reply

  60. marky says:

    Israel clearly wants to inflict maximum casualties on the civilians of Lebanon, both directly and indirectly.
    I can’t believe I’m writing this, but I think the only way to achieve an early reduction in violence is for Hezbollah to defeat the IDF.
    There is no stability in the region because there is no balance of power: Israel and the US are the 800 lb. gorillas, sowing destruction and death wantonly.
    The Israelis would kill every man woman and child in Lebanon if world opinion would countenance it.
    I am disgusted with Israel, and disgusted with my government for enabling them.

    Reply

  61. alec says:

    “But there is ONE TRUTH that is undeniable. Israel has killed FAR MORE innocent civilians, and destroyed far more property, and has occupied far more land, and has produced far more refugees, in both Gaza and Lebanon, than Hamas or Hizbollah has killed in Israel these past few weeks.”
    AND one MORE truth is also undeniable: this is not due to a lack of effort or desire on the part of hizbollah or hamas.
    and you talk about the “pure horsehit” that gets posted around here?! you might want to check your own stable, cowboy.

    Reply

  62. alec says:

    “But, just from MY standpoint on the issue, I PERSONALLY am offended…”
    well, i guess we’re even, pissed off american. i’m ALSO offended by your condescending, inflammatory and argumentative response(s).
    i thought that my correction and aplogy was obvious enough. but, from my perusing of the comments on this blog, i can see that you already know everything about everything and have never been wrong. maybe i can return some “unsolicited advice” to you: try looking up the word “humility” in the dictionary. AND, while you’re at it, you might try incorporating even small doses into your rhetoric.

    Reply

  63. MP says:

    “But the issue will STILL go unanswered by you, and the evidence unrefuted, won’t it MP? You must think we are idiots here.”
    You still don’t get it: My point in asking wasn’t to refute the evidence, but to look at the evidence and see what I thought of it. You seem to think that I’m playing a game of “gotcha,” when I’m not. I don’t have an agenda except to see what’s been dug up and decide what I think of it. Period.

    Reply

  64. Pissed Off American says:

    “As to my request below, it was based on a desire to dig deeper into the issue. You seemed like a good source, so I asked, and I thanked you for posting and re-posting. Your convoluted view as to my motivations is…well, wrong. Gobbledygook is more like it. I say that only to set the “record” straight. It’s a little disturbing, though, that you feel at liberty to accuse me (someone you don’t know at all) of things for which there isn’t the slightest bit of evidence.”
    But the issue will STILL go unanswered by you, and the evidence unrefuted, won’t it MP?
    You must think we are idiots here.

    Reply

  65. MP says:

    Sorry you feel that way. My positions on Israel have changed over time, but not while I’ve been posting here, though it’s possible different angles have emerged in response to different posts, so it may seem that way to you. I’ve been pretty much a “steady Eddie” when it comes to my feelings and thoughts about Israel. But, of course, anyone who cares about the situation and doesn’t question himself and question his or her “certainties” is sadly misguided. Isn’t that what the whole tragedy is about in the first place?
    (And wouldn’t it be a good thing if someone changed or altered his mind because of what was posted here? Isn’t that what we should be going for–instead of just scoring points?)
    As to the story about my Arab friends, it also is true as told. Whether the story makes a valid or an interesting point is a different matter entirely.
    As to my request below, it was based on a desire to dig deeper into the issue. You seemed like a good source, so I asked, and I thanked you for posting and re-posting. Your convoluted view as to my motivations is…well, wrong. Gobbledygook is more like it. I say that only to set the “record” straight. It’s a little disturbing, though, that you feel at liberty to accuse me (someone you don’t know at all) of things for which there isn’t the slightest bit of evidence.
    “A good case in point is your query about the voter fraud in Ohio. I suspect you will NEVER get around to rebutting or refuting the facts, theories, and evidence that I presented to you in those links, because you simply cannot do so, and my ability to produce the evidence so easily set you back considerably. You did not expect a response that was so difficult to refute, and were thereby trapped by your own tactics. Now, you are in the unenviable oposition of being unable to argue the issue, because it merely exposes the facts to the light of day. A result that is completely polar to reasons for extending the query in the first place.”

    Reply

  66. Pissed Off American says:

    i bet that the General would probably offer the same view on Hizbollah, seeing as they orchestrated the killing of 241 marines while he was still on active duty.
    Posted by alec
    “Offering a view on Hizbollah”, versus condoning Israel’s actions, (for examnple this criminal enterprise of MASS MURDER they now have going in Lebanon), are certainly two separate issues, aren’t they? Citing such a quote to a general, on a thread such as this one, is an attempt to steer someone into drawing conclusions about that general’s position on an issue the “quote” has NOTHING TO DO WITH, even if the quote was something other than a lie.
    And, I disagree with you. I think he would be offended by ANY LIE about his own statements or opinions, EVEN IF they closely emulated his true thoughts.
    But, just from MY standpoint on the issue, I PERSONALLY am offended by such OBVIOUS MISTRUTHS being foisted on me like I am some ignorant ass, unable to apply simple applications of COMMON SENSE when digesting some of the PURE HORSESHIT that gets posted here as gospel. Please, if you are going to cite quotes dishonestly, at least present us with a untruth that is at least SLIGHTLY challenging to disprove. And if the citation of that quote was a simple oversight on your part, and you posted it in good faith, believing in its accuracy, you might want to do YOURSELF a favor, and do a little research before you post something like that.
    And, if I may presume to offer one more bit of unsolicited advice, you might want to ponder whether or not an argument is valid, or worth arguing, when it relies heavily on LIES in its presentation. A good many Muslims see Hizbollah as a benefactor, a humanitarian savior. It is a side that our media never presents to us. The truth undoubtedly lies somnewhere in the middle.
    But there is ONE TRUTH that is undeniable. Israel has killed FAR MORE innocent civilians, and destroyed far more property, and has occupied far more land, and has produced far more refugees, in both Gaza and Lebanon, than Hamas or Hizbollah has killed in Israel these past few weeks. So who, truly, is the “terrorist”?

    Reply

  67. alec says:

    “Thank you for the apology, but it is Norman that you owe it to.”
    i doubt that he’d be very upset, POA.
    i read on the forum linked above that the quote was originally about bin laden.
    i bet that the General would probably offer the same view on Hizbollah, seeing as they orchestrated the killing of 241 marines while he was still on active duty.

    Reply

  68. weldon berger says:

    Den: MP endorsed the Geneva Accord, which addresses right of return and compensation issues; I’m not sure where you got the idea he or she advocates abandoning the concept.
    POA: One could equally say “I know FULL WELL why you have to believe MP is a racist.”

    Reply

  69. Pissed Off American says:

    POA:
    my apologies. it seems that that the quote above, widely distributed online may not be accurate. i first saw it here:
    http://forums.military.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/254198221
    sorry
    Posted by alec
    Thank you for the apology, but it is Norman that you owe it to.

    Reply

  70. Pissed Off American says:

    “ut, in fact, that is exactly what happened. I obviously can’t give you a link. And you certainly don’t have to believe me. On the other hand, you’re calling me a liar without even a shred of proof.”
    “‘ve participated in this forum in good faith, but perhaps that’s not good enough.”
    Look, MP, lets not mince words, OK? I watched you come here on the heels of two obvious trolls, and express opinions that closely paralleled the arguments being offered by the obvious trolls. Since then, I have seen you “tweak” your opinions to a more moderate presentation. Quite frankly, I distrust your presence here. Thats MY problem, and you certainly have just as much right to avail yourself of this forum as I do. After all, we BOTH post here due to the gracious tolerance and open mindedness of our host. God knows, he has certainly been very tolerant of my outbursts and divergent forays into off topic matters.
    But nevertheless, I suspect your purpose here goes beyond the mere debate of current issues. A good case in point is your query about the voter fraud in Ohio. I suspect you will NEVER get around to rebutting or refuting the facts, theories, and evidence that I presented to you in those links, because you simply cannot do so, and my ability to produce the evidence so easily set you back considerably. You did not expect a response that was so difficult to refute, and were thereby trapped by your own tactics. Now, you are in the unenviable oposition of being unable to argue the issue, because it merely exposes the facts to the light of day. A result that is completely polar to reasons for extending the query in the first place.
    Of course, you will, with the proper measure of indignation, simply deny the above. But I have learned in my half century of existence to trust my intuitions, and in regards to YOU, I have a gut feeling. My gut tells me your current moderate positioning is feigned. And it also tells me this business of “My Arab friends told me” is right along the same lines as some southern reared bigot claiming…
    “Who me?? Prejudiced??? Not me, heck, I have PLENTY of black friends”.

    Reply

  71. MP says:

    “Why would any of that statement amount to even a “trifle” of importance to those of us born and raised in the U.S. Constitution and its tradition? I believe I posted 1 1/2-2 years ago on this site that we ought to withdraw from the Mid-East and cordon it off and let them have at it. All religious zealots that believe in conducting their societies according to “other worldly” precepts should be made to confront each other in the resulting folly(ies).”
    You’ll have to take up that question with a good number of Americans living between the two coasts. Myself, I’m not religious in any traditional sense of the word and oppose the Greater Israel position.

    Reply

  72. yahaddasayit says:

    MP, I implore thee:
    When you say something such as: “Such as the Jews long occupation of the land and the millennium long yearning for others to return to the land. This history may not mean much to non-Jews, but it is not a trifle.”, are you aware of America’s founding fathers’ rejection of all that religious allusion? Why would any of that statement amount to even a “trifle” of importance to those of us born and raised in the U.S. Constitution and its tradition?
    I believe I posted 1 1/2-2 years ago on this site that we ought to withdraw from the Mid-East and cordon it off and let them have at it. All religious zealots that believe in conducting their societies according to “other worldly” precepts should be made to confront each other in the resulting folly(ies).
    I HAVE IT ON THE WORD OF GOD. AND ACCORDING TO HIS DIVINE WORD IN HIS BOOK…!!!!
    Really.

    Reply

  73. MP says:

    POA: I read EXACTLY what you wrote, MP, and realize FULL WELL why you felt you had to attribute the fiction to an Arab.
    But, in fact, that is exactly what happened. I obviously can’t give you a link. And you certainly don’t have to believe me. On the other hand, you’re calling me a liar without even a shred of proof.
    I’ve participated in this forum in good faith, but perhaps that’s not good enough.
    I actually didn’t find the point damning to Arabs. It was interesting to me from a linguistic point of view, and I thought the principle might have some bearing on how the two sides talk to, and understand, or misunderstand, each other.

    Reply

  74. alec says:

    POA:
    my apologies. it seems that that the quote above, widely distributed online may not be accurate. i first saw it here:
    http://forums.military.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/254198221
    sorry

    Reply

  75. Pissed Off American says:

    “If this was anyone else speaking he would be arrested and given a drunk test based on his mangled speech alone. He can’t even repeat the phases Abrams and Cheney give him in English.”
    Carroll, I have to agree. It has never ceased to amaze me that so many Americans were initially enamored of the ignorant asshole. But whats worse than his speech, is his body language. Watch as he approaches the podium, or exits an aicraft. This is one SERIOUSLY fucked up human being, and he telegraphs it everytime he makes a move physically. God help us if this guy truly does have his finfger on the Nuclear Trigger. I gotta believe his handlers know better. If we can see this guy is fucked up without even having personal contact with him, surely those around him are more than aware of it.

    Reply

  76. Pissed Off American says:

    “Ah, if you read what I wrote, you’d see that this is NOT my suggestion, but that of my Arab friends.”
    I read EXACTLY what you wrote, MP, and realize FULL WELL why you felt you had to attribute the fiction to an Arab.

    Reply

  77. juan49 says:

    weldon berger:
    “Do you know how many Israelis had been killed by Hizbullah rocket attacks this century prior to July 12? The answer is six”
    The answer is zero. No rockets were fired against civilian targets all those years.
    True, six israeli civilians were killed at the lebanese border. But five of them were killed by some militants who infiltrated through the border, and Hezbolla denied they were its men (probably Palestinians enraged by Israeli actions during the intifida). And the 6th Israeli was killed by a shrapnel from the Hizbolla fire against Israeli aircraft breaching the lebanese airspace.

    Reply

  78. Carroll says:

    Jesus Christ almighty!……I don’t know how much longer I can listen to the dry drunk cowbaby….’we must furment democracy whur people want to be freeze like in Amurcika”..”we can’t take the easy root”
    If this was anyone else speaking he would be arrested and given a drunk test based on his mangled speech alone. He can’t even repeat the phases Abrams and Cheney give him in English.
    What was it the MP of Korea called him?…”stupid in the extreme”?

    Reply

  79. chris_from_boca says:

    what can one say about juan cole’s recent observations as to whether this is the ground work for an invasion of iran?
    his theory, or rather his discussion of this theory, seems to fit with the preparations reported on by sy hersch not too long ago.

    Reply

  80. MP says:

    POA: “Don’t worry about it, MP, they all look the same to Ohlmert too.” Ah, if you read what I wrote, you’d see that this is NOT my suggestion, but that of my Arab friends. Perhaps you mean all Arabs look the same to other Arabs.

    Reply

  81. Pissed Off American says:

    In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness toward Hizbollah
    The General said,
    ” I believe that forgiving Hizbollah is God’s function. The Israeli’s job is to arrange the meeting.”
    Posted by alec
    Really?? Well, can you CITE EXACTLY where that interview took place, and when? If not, you seem pretty sure of yourself. Do you ALWAYS comment with quotes that can’t be confirmmed, and are mere heresay?

    Reply

  82. alec says:

    In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness toward Hizbollah
    The General said,
    ” I believe that forgiving Hizbollah is God’s function. The Israeli’s job is to arrange the meeting.”

    Reply

  83. Pissed Off American says:

    “And Arab friends of mine said that, yes, this kind of speech is one way Arabs do speak.”
    Don’t worry about it, MP, they all look the same to Ohlmert too.

    Reply

  84. MP says:

    Well, Den what can I say?
    This is the Middle East, and it makes people see the same “facts” in different ways.
    Israel has been reluctant to give up the Golan because it offers a particularly good vantage point for shelling Israel below. And Syria hasn’t done enough to assure Israel it won’t be used that way again. A lot of it has to do, I think, with the nature of Syrian regimes. Maybe that’s over-vigilance on Israel’s part.
    The right of return for Palestinians is a non-starter. I don’t know if a deal with compensation has ever been offered in a serious, or doable, way. It could be a good way forward. In any event, Hamas seems to want all of the land and doesn’t recognize the right of Israel to any of it. So who are you going to sell that to? At any price?
    Your characterization of Israel as “a settler state founded on violent eviction of the indigenous population” overlooks a lot of facts and certainly shows whom you feel has a right to be there. I don’t agree. I tend to think of it as two peoples with equal rights to side-by-side states or homelands in that area. As these things go (which isn’t very far) the partition plan was about as fair a solution as you get, and the Israelis agreed to it.
    The notion that Jews are foreigners and Arabs are indigenous people is a description that doesn’t fit the facts–or all of the facts. Such as the Jews’ long occupation of the land and the millennium-long yearning for others to return to the land. This history may not mean much to non-Jews, but it is not a trifle. I could go on, but why bother? We aren’t going to agree.
    The same for Israeli “aggression.” When you are living on a sliver of land, there’s a thin line between justified pre-emption and unjustified aggression. To paint these wars as simply a matter of Jewish aggression is, well, just silly. But again, it’s one of these rohrshach moments we’re not going to agree on.
    Rabin was a man of peace and paid the ultimate price for it. So did Sadat. Sadat’s murderers, however, are causing the world a lot more heartache than crazy Jewish settlers and seem to have plans to spread the heartache worldwide. I would also say that “some elements” underestimates the size and depth of Israelis’ desire for peace–and, indeed, I agree, their recognition of its necessity.
    But speaking of necessity, one could reasonably see this 50-year history this way: The Arabs didn’t accept Israel. They tried to get ride of it by arms. They failed. Now they see the necessity of accepting its existence because they’ve failed to make it go away. In a way, of course, this is an argument for might making right–that is to say, for Israel maintaining a strong military and nipping in the bud any aggression toward it. Similarly, if you say that Israel doesn’t really have a right to exist, but, as a practical matter, isn’t going anywhere, you are bolstering an argument for a strong Israeli military, just so the “practical matter” doesn’t change when a state or non-state actor feels strong enough to challenge the illegitimate status quo.
    And, of course, there is the matter of trade embargoes, etc., which exact a huge toll as well.
    As to “talking tough,” I’ve often wondered if Israeli isn’t just spooked by the Arab rhetoric. I had a boss once (a Lebanese/Syrian) who, when he got angry at me, used to say, “I’ll slit your throat.” The first time he said this, I was, ah, a bit worried. But after a while, I just saw it as his way of talking or venting. And Arab friends of mine said that, yes, this kind of speech is one way Arabs do speak. Problem is, I guess, you never know when they really mean it. But if we knew, we’d be in good shape. Then, when Ahmadinejad said that Israel should “vanish,” we’d know he was just spouting myth in much the way American school boys used to regale each other with tales of the Boston Tea party. You know, just so much amusing chin music.

    Reply

  85. Den Valdron says:

    MP,
    Israel needs to remain vigilant? Oka, I’ll buy that for a dollar.
    Make like Sadat to get Shabaa farms or the Golan Heights back? Assad has been trying to do just that. Syria would sign a peace treaty tomorrow in exchange for the heights. Israel won’t play. As for Shabaa farms, Israel has decamped the rest of Lebanon, so what’s the issue here?
    Abandon the ‘right of return’? Without compensation, how do you sell that and who do you sell it too?
    I don’t know that history shows a desire on the part of Israeli’s for peace. Israel was a settler state founded on violent eviction of the indigenous population. There was a long history of Israeli aggression against its neighbors, up to and including the Suez thing.
    I do agree that some elements within Israel have striven for peace. And occasionally been assassinated by hard line Israeli’s for it.
    But let’s face it: Rabbin was a man of peace, and he got a bullet for his trouble. Sharon was a bloodthirsty butcher and thug and look where he wound up.
    I dunno. In the end, I don’t think peace is as much a matter of desire as it is of necessity. Israel is not going anywhere, and the arab states in the region have accepted it. They might talk tough, but two of the three key neighbors have signed peace treaties, the third one would if it could. The Rich arab states have better things to do with their money than rag on Israel and the poor ones have more important problems. These are all realities. The Muslim world is coming to grips with Israel.
    On the other hand, Israel is a small country surrounded by a muslim sea. Demographs mean its never going to be anything but. The Muslims will never go away. There’s no conquering them, there’s no moving them away. So its up to Israel to figure out how its going to live in this world, as much as it is for the Muslims.
    So far, all I’ve seen is trash talk from the Muslims and a growing accommodation to realities behind the talk… And both trash talk and wild ass bombing from Israel.

    Reply

  86. MP says:

    MP wrote: “A fair look at the history (I think) shows that there has been a strong desire on the part of most Israelis to reach peace with its neighbors. ”
    I should also have added that there has been a strong desire on he part of most Palestinians–and all ordinary people in the region–to reach peace.
    As to Yada…sometimes they are linked and sometimes they’re not.

    Reply

  87. yahaddasayit says:

    MP, You continue to link “had nothing against the Jews” with “Israel had a right to exist”. A person as bright as yourself perhaps shouldn’t befuddle oneself so readily.

    Reply

  88. MP says:

    Den writes: “As for MP, I’m not sure I understand your perspective. Israel has placed itself in a situation where it will not and cannot win, where it incites the entire muslim world, and where it is committing war crimes daily. Is Hezbollah a problem? Sure it is. Has the current effort failed utterly? Yes it has. Solution? Go home and try and figure something else out. You don’t want Hezbollah becoming the single dominant political force in Lebanon? Stop killing Lebanese civilians and destroying Lebanese infrastructure. Stop this ‘reverse neutron bomb’ campaign that destroys noncombatants and infrastructure and leaves your enemies stronger than ever.”
    I essentially agree with this. I do think, however, that Israel needs to remain vigilant. Sometimes it’s suggested that Israel has no enemies and has simply failed to “play its cards” right and only ever creates its own messes. I wonder what would happen if the Arab states and non-state actors were ever asked to “play their cards right.” Want to stop getting your head blown off and your infrastructure destroyed? Stop building up an arsenal of increasingly powerful and more accurate missiles pointed at Israeli cities? Want Shebaa Farms back? Make like Sadat. Want a Palestinian state? Give up the demand to return all refugees to Israel proper, etc.
    A fair look at the history (I think) shows that there has been a strong desire on the part of most Israelis to reach peace with its neighbors. But the Palestinians and Hizbullah and perhaps Iran know how to jerk Israel’s chain and swing public opinion into panic. When Israel withdraws from Gaza and confronts its own extremists, you don’t start sending over Qassams–even if, as Juan Cole says, they are small and mostly miss their mark. Even Gaza hasn’t achieved true independent status, yet.
    Everyone should know by now that Israel was founded by a people that was largely wiped out in WWII. It has since assimilated millions of people who suffered terrible hardships and discriminations in other countries. Even here, in the land of the free and home of the brave, one of the highest grossing movies is nothing more than an anti-Semite passion play. (Supported by millions of Israel’s so-called Christian “supporters” in what has to be one of the great ironies.) And even here, in the so-called the progressive blogosphere, you find a preternaturally even-handed progressive like Josh Marshall reeling from what I assume is the plethora of anti-Semite, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel emails he receives (see today’s TPM post and others recently on this topic).
    So, given all this, you’d think that people who truly wanted peace, who truly had nothing against Jews, who truly felt that Israel had a right to exist, would lay off incendiary language and actions. You’d think they would see that there truly are two sides to this conflict. But they don’t. They fabricate Begin quotes and see dark motives in everything Israel does.
    And I’m particularly disturbed by the way Bushco are playing on Israel’s worst instincts to foment and Israeli attack on Syria and possibly Iran. Perhaps the way Iran is egging on Hizbullah. Who knows?
    NEVERTHELESS, I agree with Den and Weldon that Israel and the US are the stronger parties and it is incumbent upon them/us to go the extra mile or two to make peace, or, as we used to say, truly “give peace a chance.” A real chance. I’m a HUGE fan of the Geneva Accord. It is, to my mind, the ONLY way forward.

    Reply

  89. MP says:

    Dear Weldon: I couldn’t agree with you more. Israel could have and should have worked much harder to help create a Palestinian state. They are much stronger than, in a sense, they think they are.
    Weldon writes: “If Israel were to accept something along the lines of the Beiruit Declaration or Yossi Beilin’s Geneva Accords, even or perhaps especially if they did so unilaterally, they would suddenly find themselves in the unfamiliar position of holding the unequivocal moral high ground.
    It’s up to the stronger party to make the larger sacrifices in resolving this conflict. Israel has never shown any willingness to do that, although Rabin was perhaps headed in that direction, and it wasn’t Fatah or Hamas or Hizbullah who derailed that train. It is well worth remembering, in fact it is critical to remember, that the PLO was once sworn to Israel’s destruction as well, and that they ultimately renounced that goal, which was one of the elements in Hamas’s path to power (along with wholesale corruption in the Palestinian Authority).
    It is also critical to remember that Hamas was chartered by Israel to operate in the West Bank for the purpose of creating a counterweight to the PLO, and that Hizbullah is nearly as direct a creation of Israel, the result of Israel’s invasion of Lebanon; whether or not anyone who supports Israel wishes to acknowledge it, much of what we’re seeing with the ascendency of Hamas and the strengthening of Hizbullah is blowback from Israeli actions.
    Someone has to go sane here. Since all the guns and butter are in our hands and the Israeli’s, we and they are the obvious choices. It’s a damned shame there aren’t any leaders in either country willing to take their diplomatic lithium and get to work.”

    Reply

  90. Davenport says:

    Robert Morrow, a well-spoken, intelligent, and thoughtful employee of the Rendon Group

    Reply

  91. weldon berger says:

    Sydney, Sydney, Sydney: I’ll buy you a year’s subscription to Jewsweek if you can document that alleged Begin quote with a citation from any of Carter’s writings.

    Reply

  92. anna says:

    I don’t think Colonel Lang necessarily disagrees on the need for a ceasefire.
    He just wants us to be clear that Israel has lost tactically and strategically. It has not and probably can not destroy Hizbullah. In it’s first land effort it retreated.
    It still has not silenced the rockets.
    It has destroyed huge parts of lebanin claiming that it was destroying rockets, but it simply destroyed villages and neighborhoods after the rockets were fired.
    It has destroyed the Lebanese communication structure and quite possibly the country allegedly to block weapons flowing to Hizbullah, but it can’t block the smugglers routes. It just blocks food, oil and medicine.
    It’s military effort can be a fiasco, it neeeds to declare victory and it will. But Colonel Lang wants us to know it is a farce.
    Israel has brought us trouble and most likely strengthened Syria and Lebanon and Iran while radicalizing much of Lebanon and the world. Our committment to the cedar revolution has been proven to be nothing.
    Meanwhile large sectors of this country have found ways to rationalize the possible destruction of a country.

    Reply

  93. Sydney says:

    Many of us in the Australian Jewish community have warned you many times that Israel is controling all our politicians, we meant ALL.
    This was posted today at the Rense website:
    Who Wants A Master Race
    To Enslave Humanity?
    8-6-6
    “OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE. WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET. WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS. IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST. OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT. OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES. OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON. THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES.”
    Now, who said it?
    Was it Hitler?
    Was it Stalin?
    Menachem Begin
    (Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

    Reply

  94. swampfox says:

    Watch and share.
    “PEACE, PROPAGANDA, & THE PROMISED LAND”
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=gestation&pr=goog-sl

    Reply

  95. Dick Fitzgerald says:

    Disarm Hizbollah? What about disarming US-supported Israel? This whole so-called cease fire proposal is a colonialist trick to bail out Israel from a war it’s losing. We note that Israel’s draftee army won’t even cross the border, and run from any even fight. Cf. Helena Cobban on this @ Just world News.

    Reply

  96. GQ says:

    Someone has to go sane here.
    Couldn’t agree more. But I see a bunch of children controlling the debate–on both sides.

    Reply

  97. Carroll says:

    Well, this is interesting:
    From CNN transcripts…
    And joining us now here Washington Anne Compton who covers the White House for ABC News, and Thomas Ricks, Pentagon reporter for “The Washington Post” and author of the new book “Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq.”
    Tom Ricks, you’ve covered a number of military conflicts, including Iraq, as I just mentioned. Is civilian casualties increasingly going to be a major media issue? In conflicts where you don’t have two standing armies shooting at each other?
    THOMAS RICKS, REPORTER, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: I think it will be. But I think civilian casualties are also part of the battlefield play for both sides here. One of the things that is going on, according to some U.S. military analysts, is that Israel purposely has left pockets of Hezbollah rockets in Lebanon, because as long as they’re being rocketed, they can continue to have a sort of moral equivalency in their operations in Lebanon.
    KURTZ: Hold on, you’re suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of it’s fire power, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here?
    RICKS: Yes, that’s what military analysts have told me.
    KURTZ: That’s an extraordinary testament to the notion that having people on your own side killed actually works to your benefit in that nobody wants to see your own citizens killed but it works to your benefit in terms of the battle of perceptions here.
    RICKS: Exactly. It helps you with the moral high ground problem, because you know your operations in Lebanon are going to be killing civilians as well.”
    If true, obviously wiping out Hezbollah’s ability to fire rockets into Israel isn’t the goal.

    Reply

  98. Carroll says:

    Well, this is interesting:
    From CNN transcripts…
    And joining us now here Washington Anne Compton who covers the White House for ABC News, and Thomas Ricks, Pentagon reporter for “The Washington Post” and author of the new book “Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq.”
    Tom Ricks, you’ve covered a number of military conflicts, including Iraq, as I just mentioned. Is civilian casualties increasingly going to be a major media issue? In conflicts where you don’t have two standing armies shooting at each other?
    THOMAS RICKS, REPORTER, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: I think it will be. But I think civilian casualties are also part of the battlefield play for both sides here. One of the things that is going on, according to some U.S. military analysts, is that Israel purposely has left pockets of Hezbollah rockets in Lebanon, because as long as they’re being rocketed, they can continue to have a sort of moral equivalency in their operations in Lebanon.
    KURTZ: Hold on, you’re suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of it’s fire power, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here?
    RICKS: Yes, that’s what military analysts have told me.
    KURTZ: That’s an extraordinary testament to the notion that having people on your own side killed actually works to your benefit in that nobody wants to see your own citizens killed but it works to your benefit in terms of the battle of perceptions here.
    RICKS: Exactly. It helps you with the moral high ground problem, because you know your operations in Lebanon are going to be killing civilians as well.”
    If true, obviously wiping out Hezbollah’s ability to fire rokets into Israel isn’t the goal.

    Reply

  99. weldon berger says:

    The obvious solution is to follow Chuck Hagel’s advice and force the implementation of the Beirut Declaration. This situation has never been as intractable as any of the players would have any of the other players believe.
    MP, you’re a rational guy. Do you know how many Israelis had been killed by Hizbullah rocket attacks this century prior to July 12? The answer is six. Does that sound like an existential threat to Israel? Does even the current bombardment? How many Israelis have died this time around, when Hizbullah has launched more than a thousand Katyushas? 30? 40? Does that sound like an existential threat to Israel?
    Regardless what Nasrallah says, regardless what Ahmadinejad says, they cannot destroy Israel, while the opposite is true of Israel: even without our help, they can destroy Lebanon or Iran or any other country in the region they believe to be an immediate threat to their existence. And everyone, everyone knows that; Hizbullah may, probably will, come out of this conflict with a political victory, but although they’re more or less holding their own in the ground war, they are overall losing on the order of 10:1 in terms of their milita and Israel’s soldiers. Some victory.
    If Israel were to accept something along the lines of the Beiruit Declaration or Yossi Beilin’s Geneva Accords, even or perhaps especially if they did so unilaterally, they would suddenly find themselves in the unfamiliar position of holding the unequivocal moral high ground.
    It’s up to the stronger party to make the larger sacrifices in resolving this conflict. Israel has never shown any willingness to do that, although Rabin was perhaps headed in that direction, and it wasn’t Fatah or Hamas or Hizbullah who derailed that train. It is well worth remembering, in fact it is critical to remember, that the PLO was once sworn to Israel’s destruction as well, and that they ultimately renounced that goal, which was one of the elements in Hamas’s path to power (along with wholesale corruption in the Palestinian Authority).
    It is also critical to remember that Hamas was chartered by Israel to operate in the West Bank for the purpose of creating a counterweight to the PLO, and that Hizbullah is nearly as direct a creation of Israel, the result of Israel’s invasion of Lebanon; whether or not anyone who supports Israel wishes to acknowledge it, much of what we’re seeing with the ascendency of Hamas and the strengthening of Hizbullah is blowback from Israeli actions.
    Someone has to go sane here. Since all the guns and butter are in our hands and the Israeli’s, we and they are the obvious choices. It’s a damned shame there aren’t any leaders in either country willing to take their diplomatic lithium and get to work.

    Reply

  100. Carroll says:

    BTW…Juan Cole has put up an interesting theory from a source about the oil question and the attack on Lebanon…in light of the fact that Israel deliberately targeted the whole of Lebanon, not just Hezbollah. And how the US and Isr acting in tandem are advancing both their goals.
    I am not an expert on the oil stituation but maybe someone else can comment on it.
    Very worth reading, in particular for the US position in Isr’s attack on Lebanon:
    http://www.juancole.com/

    Reply

  101. billy says:

    I’m with Robert Morrow. Unleash Israel throughout Lebanon so the Israelis can get their asses kicked but good! Yeah! Neocons want that, but Israel is saying “Hell no, you evil bastard Neocons! you not my boss!”
    Disagree, though, with kamikazee Morrow, with his statement about “waking up dead.” You don’t wake up after your dead since there is NO afterlife, God damn it!

    Reply

  102. Carroll says:

    The more we get bogged down in the stragety of Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon the more we lose sight of the crux of the matter….
    The goals of Israel in everything they have done are the same as always…1)Keep their main settlements in and control over Palestine and 2) Make Israel the dominate economic and military power in the ME.
    Obviously this won’t work in the long run so every dime and dead person invested in this pipe dream is just pure stupidy and hubris.
    I am sure historians are busy recording the popular propaganda of the day and outlining the sequence of every event for the “Rise and Fall of the US/Isr Reich in the Clash of Civilizations”.

    Reply

  103. Den Valdron says:

    As a further thought, maybe Israel’s best option is to accept Hezbollah’s takeover of Lebanon.
    As a stateless organization, Hezbollah has a constituencey but olds no territory. There’s nothing for Israel to strike, so it blows up civilians. There’s nothing to capture, so the Israeli ground forces have nothing to do but walk into traps.
    Assuming that Hezbollah takes over Lebanon fully, then it becomes responsible for the whole of services and infrastructure, and it has an investment in keeping things safe.
    Of course, that would mean that Israel is targetting civilian populations and holding them hostage… Definitely a war crime. But perhaps in this case, a war crime with some effect RATHER THAN THE CURRENT GAME OF GRATUITOUS AND POINTLESS ISRAELI SADISM.

    Reply

  104. Den Valdron says:

    Well, thanks to Robert Morrow for that stirring endorsement of genocide. I’m sure all the little baby Lebanese, the pre-teen Lebanese, the old people, the women, the non-Shiite civilians will all appreciate his position.
    So… according to Robert Morrow, Osama was perfectly within his rights to hold American civilians in the World Trade Centre responsible for the actions of the American government which offended him?
    As for MP, I’m not sure I understand your perspective. Israel has placed itself in a situation where it will not and cannot win, where it incites the entire muslim world, and where it is committing war crimes daily.
    Is Hezbollah a problem? Sure it is. Has the current effort failed utterly? Yes it has.
    Solution? Go home and try and figure something else out. You don’t want Hezbollah becoming the single dominant political force in Lebanon? Stop killing Lebanese civilians and destroying Lebanese infrastructure. Stop this ‘reverse neutron bomb’ campaign that destroys noncombatants and infrastructure and leaves your enemies stronger than ever.
    Continue down this path, and who knows?

    Reply

  105. sandstone says:

    ‘defending oneself’ is used regularly in the broadest manner possible.. destroying lebanese infastructure is refered to as ‘defending oneself’… neocons have made a huge mess in iraq, and those who want to support them in lebanon are barking up the same tree.

    Reply

  106. alec says:

    “i know this will never happen, but what if say, some sort of MNF went into Lebannon and attacked both Hezbollah AND Israel if it didn’t immediately pull back to its borders and end its strikes into Lebannon? What do you think the effect of that would be?”
    the effect would be a bunch of dead Multi-national forces. hezbollah won’t play ball and israel won’t stop defending itself.

    Reply

  107. alec says:

    “Thanks Robert Morrow for articulating Genghis Khan’s position so nicely. Any chance you can channel General Franco now?”
    genghis khan? surely you jest. robert’s position makes as much sense as any i’ve seen in the last few threads.
    i assume that you are being sarcastic.

    Reply

  108. sandstone says:

    kind of like a military fence of sorts.. interesting idea..

    Reply

  109. MNPundit says:

    I know this will never happen, but what if say, some sort of MNF went into Lebannon and attacked both Hezbollah AND Israel if it didn’t immediately pull back to its borders and end its strikes into Lebannon? What do you think the effect of that would be?
    Again a thought experiement only.

    Reply

  110. Matthew says:

    Thanks Robert Morrow for articulating Genghis Khan’s position so nicely. Any chance you can channel General Franco now?

    Reply

  111. Robert Morrow says:

    I agree with the neocons that we need to unleash Israel throughout Lebanon until there is no longer a Hezbollah problem. As for the Lebanese who are complaining about this, if you sleep with dogs, you wake up with fleas. And if you sleep with Hezbollah missile launchers, you wake up dead.

    Reply

  112. Hal says:

    Valdron,
    You may be right about Hezbollah taking over in Lebanon, but if there’s a way to avoid this, the US, France and yes, Israel, should struggle against it.
    If Hez takes over, Lebanon becomes a close ally of Iran. What chance then for a regional peace conference? Is Iran ready to give up the option of threatening Israel? It works so well for them politically.
    That said, I do not understand the UN resolution. It would be a defeat for Israel, yet it gives Hez less than they’ve won so far on the battlefield. Looks like a non-starter to me.

    Reply

  113. MP says:

    DV writes: “A ceasefire where Israel gets to sit on Lebanese territory, or gets to keep up jet attacks, has been tried before and it didn’t work.”
    But a ceasefire in which Hizbollah simply refortifies its missiles and, over time, they become more powerful, more accurate, longer range, etc., won’t work either. Particularly when their oft-repeated, and unambiguously stated, goal is the destruction of Israel. Smaller missile attacks have occurred repeatedly since Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon.
    Hizbollah’s missiles’ current deployment has NO other purpose than to hit civilians. Their placement in residential neighborhoods, homes, and hospitals (and near UN posts) has NO other purpose than to cause civilian casualities when and if Israel can be lured into striking back.
    I don’t think peace is simply a matter of recognizing that Hizbollah has won and now is Lebanon.

    Reply

  114. Matthew says:

    John: The goal is not to have a ceasefire, it is to pretend that there is a ceasefire. Our rank hypocrisy is on display again. Recall earlier this week Israel claimed that would stop airstrikes for 48 hours, but, of course, didn’t stop them. I’m sure one of Israel’s defenders will post some nuance in Israel’s public statements that will excuse their breach.

    Reply

  115. John says:

    If the goal is a cease fire, why not accept Hezbollah’s offer–no rockets in return for no air strikes? Seems to make as much sense as one the silly France-US one, which does not even include one of the major parties to the conflict.

    Reply

  116. Den Valdron says:

    I agree with Steve that the key is a ceasefire on both sides.
    A ceasefire where Israel gets to sit on Lebanese territory, or gets to keep up jet attacks, has been tried before and it didn’t work.
    Other elements of the ceasefire such as disclosure of the locations and maps of minefields is simple humanity. And the Shabaa farms issue was always a needless irritant.
    Altogether too much emphasis is placed on disarming Hezbollah, that’s a moot issue. Hell, let’s face it. After this, Hezbollah *is* Lebanon. Their popularity runs the length of the country, their position with the Shia are secure. They’re in a position to control both the government of Lebanon and its military forces.
    Disarm them? Hell, they’re going to have Lebanon’s entire defense budget, and legal import powers to play with.

    Reply

  117. Matthew says:

    Here is the true cost of Bush’s lack of leadership: (1) we have lost the plausible deniability with regards to Israeli actions, i.e., Israel is now confirmed as our cat’s paw, which strips every pro-American Arab of the ability to separate Israel’s agenda from America’s; and (2) Hezbollah has just educated every militant in the world on how to strike against a Western military. (Even Charles Krauthammer is in a panic.) You bet this is a big win for Hezbollah.

    Reply

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