Lest We Forget. . .Scooter Libby (and Fred Thompson!)

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Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has noted that convicted former Cheney chief-of-staff Scooter Libby has shown no remorse for his role in obstructing the investigation of the leak of Valerie Plame Wilson’s covert responsibilities for the CIA and has asked for a 30 to 37 month jail sentence for Libby.
Here is the 18 page sentencing document (a pdf) filed by Fitzgerald.
We also ought not to forget former Senator and potential presidential candidate Fred Thompson’s significant enthusiasm for Scooter Libby’s legal defense and ask him whether Libby-like obstruction of justice would be tolerated in his potential administration.
This is from the front page of the Scooter Libby Legal Defense Fund homepage:

Former Senator Fred Thompson, a member of the Advisory Committee for the Libby Legal Defense Trust has graciously offered to host another fundraiser for the Libby Legal Defense Trust.

Well, as one wealthy conservative political donor just told me by phone, knowing Fred Thompson’s role in this “just saved me a whole heck of a lot of money.” (i.e., he ain’t giving. . .)
— Steve Clemons

Comments

49 comments on “Lest We Forget. . .Scooter Libby (and Fred Thompson!)

  1. Carroll says:

    And as for Falwell, Hagee, Roberson and all the other sicko-politico God Merchants it would make my day and I would sleep better at night if they all dropped dead and all their followers were shipped to some koolaid farm far from civilization.

    Reply

  2. Carroll says:

    Posted by MP at June 2, 2007 02:49 PM
    >>>>>>>>>
    Maybe it’s a difference in individuals. On a get away from school for a weekend I got lost in Charleston’s totally back section of town at the height of the MLK blowback…didn’t stop me as a white girl from pulling over, getting out and asking directions from a group of blacks on the street.
    Maybe it’s how you present yourself or what you expect or maybe I am am just stupid.
    On another occasion when I had an ad in the paper for my lost German shepard a black guy called me and said he thought he knew where he was in someone’s yard. So I went to meet him at the address and sure enough there was my dog. He said he thought I might be afraid to come because he was black. Surprise,surprise…I don’t see a black man has any more reason to do me harm me than a white one. Particulary when he sees I have no irrational fear of blacks as blacks.

    Reply

  3. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “You as a jew can’t or don’t see the connection in what I just described and assume today’s arguements about Israel are pure anti-semitism coming out of the closet to spring on you.
    But trust me, I am right on this.
    And as a mental excerise try this….is your opinion about anti-semitism among gentiles the same type of monolithic stereotyping as you think gentiles do in regarding jews as monolithic group?”
    I agree with your points about US policy and Israel needing to change. I’ve stated that repeatedly, and you appreciate the wide differences among Jews in America on many issues. I also agree with the negative effect of crying “anti-Semite” every time someone criticizes Israel–that’s crazy and damaging to everyone. I oppose that and try not to practice it myself.
    My point about blow back had to do with TARRING “the Jews” for the actions of a few–that, to me, is anti-Semitism. It’s the tarring part that has emerged in various threads that I can’t accept. Falwell doesn’t create any blowback, even for evangelicals. They gots the power; they are in the majority, that’s the difference. Very few people are up in arms when evangelicals run the show among Air Force cadets. It all has to do with being in the majority.
    Jews are just as capable as gentiles of prejudice and stereotyping. One difference is that Jews are almost always in the minority with very little real power as a result. Many cloistered Jews have negative views of Christians. But these views haven’t led to pogroms and a whole theology of hatred that has been exercised in ways vicious and subtle over centuries. Had Jews been the ones in power, maybe things would have been reversed.
    Here’s another thought experiment: When my wife enters a parking garage, she’s very attuned to all the possible dangers. I walk into the same parking garages oblivious to the dangers. When people have a long history of vulnerability, they become very attuned to certain REAL dangers that those without the vulnerability are oblivious to.

    Reply

  4. Carroll says:

    So, if you’re warning me, as a friend, to watch out, I appreciate it. But the only reason you need to warn me is that there is a bedrock of anti-Semitism that is about to erupt. So I appreciate the warning, but I can’t say that Jews have earned the canards.
    Posted by MP at May 31, 2007 02:31 PM
    >>>>>>>>>
    I am not really warning, except in the “generic” sense of a warning and as an “internet buddy”…. of there being a blowback politically among the public on Israel and AIPAC as well as other elements that have us embroiled in the ME.
    I don’t think there is going to be any huge surge of anti-semitism. For every whacko right wing zionist there are other jews who can be pointed to who are working against their lunacy. I think people are smart enough to catch onto that. I am 100% oppposed to our Israeli policy and even I
    acknowledge that many Jews are also working on the same problems I see with US/Isr.
    But the screws will be put (not literally, although I wish) to those loud mouth zionist who have stirred up so much s**** and contributed to Israel’s horrible actions and the resulting damage to the US because of them. And the american jews who think they have a right to demand “unconditional” support for Israel from all americans whether the bulk of americans agree
    or not are going to have to rethink exactly what their “nationality” is or be very unhappy.
    US policy toward Israel has to change and the uproar in the public against the current set up has just started…but that doesn’t mean there is going to be some kind of mini holocuast or reverting to the past.
    The discussion on Israel belongs in the political realm..but the more it is censored by accusations of anti-semitism from Israeli interest, the more the “censors” themselves make it about “The Jews” (which is their ploy and intention) by lumping it with anti-semitism which makes it about all Jews to the lesser educated on the all to ins and outs and players that caused the Israel problem in US policy.
    You as a jew can’t or don’t see the connection in what I just described and assume today’s arguements about Israel are pure anti-semitism coming out of the closet to spring on you.
    But trust me, I am right on this.
    And as a mental excerise try this….is your opinion about anti-semitism among gentiles
    the same type of monolithic stereotyping as you think gentiles do in regarding jews as monolithic group?

    Reply

  5. Carroll says:

    Posted by Bob Waters at May 31, 2007 06:44 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>
    Tee hee…even an aging debutante like me could make mincemeat out of a bombastic empty suit bubba like Fred.

    Reply

  6. Pissed Off American says:

    “……..Whether the jury was correct of convicting Libby of lying under oath is very debatable. No question about Bill Clinton, though. Did you take a similar line about him?………..”
    “…….Thompson will make mincemeat out of anybody the Democrats nominate. People who debate him seldom come out of the experience smiling. Be afraid, my friendly donkeys. Be very afraid.”
    Posted by Bob Waters
    I am afraid. Ignorance like yours scares the shit out of me.

    Reply

  7. Bob Waters says:

    No reason for remorse, either by Libby or by Thompson.
    Libby’s prosecution was a political one. Since there was never a real question ofValarie Plame meeting the legal definition of an undercover agent (and thus couldn’t have been “outed,” much less illegally), there was never anything of substance for the grand jury to investigate. The whole affair was an elaborate media spin job about nothing. The evidence against Libby- prosecuted as a scapegoat for the sole purpose o harming the administration- was shaky to say the least; the star witness at his trial- Dave Russert- is a former Democratic politician, and the entire affair was an elaborate spinning of absolutely nothing into… well, absolutely nothing.
    Whether the jury was correct of convicting Libby of lying under oath is very debatable. No question about Bill Clinton, though. Did you take a similar line about him?
    As to Thompson’s competence as a prosecutor, one dead president and one ex-Tennessee governor would have good cause to differ with the negative assessments offered above.
    Thompson will make mincemeat out of anybody the Democrats nominate. People who debate him seldom come out of the experience smiling. Be afraid, my friendly donkeys. Be very afraid.

    Reply

  8. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “However..LOOK AROUND….THINGS CHANGE. If the Jews or any other victims of discrimination hold onto that grudge weight forever it will sink them again.”
    Yes, they do. And, in fact, my father never complained about this, nor did he ever mention anti-Semitism or complain about it. My point was rebutting yours that somehow, down through the ages, the Jews had earned, by their actions, the traitor or dual loyalty label.
    My view is that the countries they’ve fought for have been disloyal to them.
    Look, this issue long pre-dates Israel. Before that, Jews were disloyal because they were communists or socialists or nihilists or anarchists. Before that, they were international bankers, loyal to no country. Before that, they were Christ Killers.
    (Go read Henry Ford’s The International Jew: The World’s Foremost Problem. It’s still in print and sold in this country. You can get it on Amazon. It makes for some amazing reading.)
    In each case, the claim is that Jews did some thing or were something that was inimical to the otherwise fair and loving population who were the real French, Germans, Italians, etc.
    It’s the same argument over and over and over again. Same shit; different bucket.
    Those who have truly done wrong should be punished. Those who haven’t shouldn’t be. There is no MORAL excuse for doing otherwise.

    Reply

  9. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “It’s about the mentality of some jewish families thinking about Israel vrs American needs…
    ME: If it were an Israel vs. America’s needs in this case, I’d agree with you. But I don’t see it that way. I don’t blame anyone for not joining the military right now. If he feels that Israel is worth fighting for, either, I don’t see a problem with it. As I say, you yourself have suggested that folks who feel that Israel is that important should go there and fight for it. That’s what he’s doing. Frankly, joining the military right now is hardly fighting for America.
    and you admitting that, yea, this contributes to the carnards about jews. Is it anti-semitic of me to point this guy out and critize his loyalty and say this contributes to the carnards. Nope.
    Is it anti-semitic for anti-semites to use it to say “all” jews are like that, Yep.
    ME: Jews do any number of things that contribute to these canards in that sense. Some are rich. Some are cheap. Some do bad things. But the sin of tarring still belongs to the tarer, not the taree. Look, I think AIPAC’s policies are very bad. I hope they are defeated. And it’s possible that I might get blamed for them by an anti-Semite. And I might even say to AIPAC, “Stop it or I’m going to get tarred.” But still, the person to blame for the tarring is the person doing the tarring–not me, and not even AIPAC. Look, no one goes around blaming Protestants for what Jerry Falwell did. Why should Jews get blamed for AIPAC? It’s possible they will be blamed.
    But it is wrong. And that’s my point.
    So, if you’re warning me, as a friend, to watch out, I appreciate it. But the only reason you need to warn me is that there is a bedrock of anti-Semitism that is about to erupt. So I appreciate the warning, but I can’t say that Jews have earned the canards.

    Reply

  10. Carroll says:

    P.S.
    “ME: In a much milder form, my father came back from WWII to find WASP-only-need-apply want ads in the NY Times.”
    Well hell MP…you think as a woman out in the business world before I was married I wasn’t discriminated against for being female? Hah! Most women even put up with different forms of sexual harrasment before we had any laws against it.
    Everyone has been discriminated against at one time or another for whatever reason.
    However..LOOK AROUND….THINGS CHANGE.
    If the Jews or any other victims of discrimination hold onto that grudge weight forever it will sink them again.

    Reply

  11. Carroll says:

    Posted by MP at May 31, 2007 12:15 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Mp,MP,MP….(groan)..you just aren’t ever going to get the point I am making are you?. If you were a flaming sixies (back when) liberal I would say it’s because of hippy dippy flower child notions of shared communes and no boarders and one world. All I chalk it up to in your case though is your jewish background when it comes to this question.
    You know this isn’t about whether Iraq is a liar’s war or not..you don’t see our black citizens flocking to Africa to fight for the better cause of African blacks instead of joining the US military do you? It’s about the mentality of some jewish families thinking about Israel vrs American needs…and you admitting that, yea, this contributes to the carnards about jews. Is it anti-semitic of me to point this guy out and critize his loyalty and say this contributes to the carnards. Nope.
    Is it anti-semitic for anti-semites to use it to say “all” jews are like that, Yep.
    And saying that maybe he thinks the Israel terrier war is more justified than the US terrier war doesn’t work as reasoning since the Israeli interest have declared long ago that Isrmerica is in a “world wide war” against the terriers.
    You known the famous political description “triangulating”? That’s what you are doing on the Israeli issue.
    Dual loyalites, two loyalties, bi-loyalties whatever you want to call it ..there will come a time when you find your loyalties between a rock and hard place. We aren’t even at war with Israel and Israel is already a flash point in the public attitude. What you gonna do if some President eventually takes exception to Israel, maybe when they sell some arms again to some no,no on our list? Or Israel does something on their own that jepordies US interest or gets into it with one of our other ME allies?
    I am telling you, although I know it does no good, that this “fostering” among the jewish population of the faulty notion that US and Israel are joined at the hip is going to be a very painful awakening for some when the inevitable incident or change in politics pops that bubble.
    And in the Israeli question going on right now it is the strident pro zionist for Israel among american jews themselves that put the jews on this particular tighrope. Not anyone else. The mostly ignored for a long time David Duke types didn’t suddenly bring the current criticism of zionist and Israel to the forefront in the mainstream public, they are just taking advantage of the flap, because the AIPAC types are giving them plenty of ammunition to work with.

    Reply

  12. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “And if some American Jews or gentile evangelicals want to give to or fight for Israel let them do it on their own private dime and blood, not anyone else’s.”
    The very same post, C. It’s almost as if that boy had read your words.

    Reply

  13. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “Well GoRonGo makes valid points MP.
    ME: And a lot of invalid ones, too. For one, he’s fixated on folks changing their names.
    He is saying let Jews be or do whatever they want, don’t try to associate all jews with other jews in their fights.
    ME: I have no problem with that.
    And if some American Jews or gentile evangelicals want to give to or fight for Israel let them do it on their own private dime and blood, not anyone else’s. And if some Jews want to campaign against Israeli actions they have a right to do that without being called names.
    ME: I have no problem with that, either.
    I have seen umpteen thousand discussions by jews saying they are anti-zionist because it is racist, others saying they are zionist because it is about “nationalism” and “self determination” and etc,etc, e.t.c….arguements between jews about whether they are a race or a religion, some claim race, some claim religion, some claim both.
    ME: Yes; but not sure what your point is.
    What it boils down to for everyone else is this…get the Jewish/Israel/Nationalism thing out of American policy and politics. Let Israel and the Jews and evangelicals who support Israel go their own way on their own without trying to take America and the rest of us along with them. Their fights and agendas are not one of the majority of Americans.
    ME: Sounds simple. I’m not sure it is, as I’ve said elsewhere. And not just with respect to Israel, but with many other parts of the world.
    That seems fair to me.
    And I have to say the most hate and vitrol I have seen thrown about has been by the uber “nationalist” zionist against the non zionist jews. I mean they attack them like rabid dogs calling them “traitors” (to their jewish race and/or Israel). The comments of most non jews who critize the jewish thing in US politics or Israel are actually mild compared to most of those.
    ME: Yes; it can get ugly. He quotes Meir Kahane, who is VERY EXTREME. But the JDL rose up because yeshiva buchers were getting the shit beaten out of them.
    You ought to go give them a whipping instead of GoRonGo…he’s just defending his children and his jewish wife’s right not to be dragged into or associated with the Israeli actions or AIPAC doings.
    ME: When I’m with those folks, I tell them what I think. When I’m here, and see folks like GRG “outing” Jews and smearing Zionism, I tell him what I think. No one’s dragging his wife or kids into anything. Tarring occurs BECAUSE of anti-Semitism. It doesn’t create anti-Semitism. The tarers, not the tarees, are the problem, IMO.
    Also a word about the “nationalism” of jews in the jewish zionist arguement.
    I recently read an article in the JTA about a Jewish-American boy who went to Israel to join the IDF. His mother who is with some jewish org in Az or somewhere was saying how proud she was of him for fighting in the IDF against Israel’s enemies.
    Does it not strike you as questionable loyalties that while the US is in a war in Iraq and famously shorthanded for recruits and troops there…that Jewish families living in the the US with US citizenship bring their children up to believe in fighting for Israel but not the country they live in?..to the extent that they would go join the IDF but not the US military while we are fighting in Iraq? This guy certainly isn’t not signing up with the US military and signing up with the IDF because he is a peacenik.
    ME: Carroll, this is a muddle. First off, Zionism, as a national movement, has drawn millions of Jews to live there and fight for it. I see nothing wrong with it. Second, as to this boy, maybe he’s becoming an Israeli–do you know? Third, as to boy, maybe he believes that the IDF is engaged, generally, in a cause he can believe in, whereas the Iraq War isn’t a cause he can believe in. This would suggest that he DOESN’T see US and Israeli interests as identical, but as separate. In fact, maybe he’s been reading your posts and believes that the American military shouldn’t be engaged in protecting Israel, but that Jews should be, even if it’s only a temporary stint.
    Fourth, I have to say your comment is maybe the first time I’ve read anyone on these comments recommend that anyone sign up to fight in Iraq. Or even Afghanistan. I’m surprised.
    This represents the very type of thing jews have been accused of for centuries..no loyalty to the countries they live in….and yet here they are, some of them, doing the exact same thing all over again.
    ME: Carroll, Jews have fought bravely and patriotically in many, if not all, of the armies of the countries of which they’ve been citizens. When they were accepted as soldiers. In many cases, they were repaid with hatred. Think of the poor shmucks who took their Iron Crosses to Auschwitz. In a much milder form, my father came back from WWII to find WASP-only-need-apply want ads in the NY Times. It’s not like, down through the centuries, these countries have treated Jews well and Jews have repaid them with disloyalty. This is a bit analogous to blacks who fought for this country and were repaid with Jim Crow and worse. This “centuries” old libel that Jews aren’t loyal to the countries of which they are citizens is tripe.
    Is this the act of a loyal American family while the US is losing Americans hand over fist in Iraq. I think not. And is this because they are Jewish..well obviously…and becuase they place israel over the US..well obviously.
    ME: Are you suggesting that more Americans sign up for the military and be fed into the maw of Cheney’s middle east policies? Recruiting is down ALL OVER. It’s not just Jews, but all rich white folk aren’t signing up. And a lot of the poor folks are also getting the idea. Moreover, any number of folks go into the military for what might be called selfish reasons–to pay for college and advance their careers–not because they are filled with a patriotic love of their country. Many are, of course; but many are not; and this fact has been well publicized.
    At another level, you could make a similar argument about Peace Corps volunteers: Should they be building wells in Mali when there are houses to be rebuilt in NO? I think it’s a personal decision and has nothing to do with “loyalties.” Once you get on the loyalty/disloyalty kick, you are headed straight for Mr. McCarthy’s Senate hearing room…and Nixon’s HUAC hearing room. The whole loyalty argument, except within the “narrow” definition of “traitor,” is extremely damanging to this country.
    And yea, plenty of Jews have served in the US military, my elderly jewish friend who died last September and his brother both fought in WWII…..but if you want to be honest about where the age old “carnards” about Jews and loyalty come from, you need to look to some of the jews like that family themselves as being behind the carnards…because the carnard applies in their case.
    ME: See above. Moreover, how many times have you, POA, and other posters said: If these Jews believe in Israel so much, they should join the IDF and put their lives where their mouths are. Well, here’s a kid who’s doing just that, and you’re calling him a disloyal American. Plus, you’re saying that he should have joined a war YOU and almost every person on these comments has CONDEMNED to the umpteenth degree.
    I sure wouldn’t regard this boy or his mother as having any sense of duty or loyalty to the US at all, especially in present circumstances. I don’t know how prevalent this is among the rank and file Jews but when jewish orgs and the Israel military run ads in American papers as they are doing right now to recruit jewish americans to serve in the Israeli military and send IDF PR reps to jewish schools in the US to promote Israel and their military especially while we are in Iraq..then cleary…”Houston, we have a problem”.
    ME: See above. I would also say that when the premier Air Force academy is run by evangelicals and recruits from other religions are discriminated against…and prayer becomes a pre-requisite… we also got a problem.
    The valid question for “some” jews and even evangelics comes down to this….when your dual loyalty to Israel and to the US conflict as in this case…who you gonna choose?
    ME: Sorry, I don’t see the dual loyalty problem here. If Israel and the US were fighting each other, you might have a point, but they aren’t.
    I have said over and over, you can’t have wife and a mistress at the same time, without the shit hitting the fan sooner or later. It just plain doesn’t work. Everyone has to make a choice at some point…both marriage vows and the oath of citizenship say..”forsaking all others” for a very good reason.
    ME: What oath of citizenship?

    Reply

  14. Pissed Off American says:

    “We’re about to enter WW III and it’s time to acknowledge Zionism’s role in it.”
    Gosh, I heard the Tobacco lobby was the culprit.

    Reply

  15. Kathleen says:

    An unsigned blank check is nothing, draw a line across it, so it can’t be made out.
    Same point.

    Reply

  16. Kathleen says:

    An unsigned blank check is nothing, draw a line across it, so it can’t be made out. Same point.

    Reply

  17. Carroll says:

    Well GoRonGo makes valid points MP.
    He is saying let Jews be or do whatever they want, don’t try to associate all jews with other jews in their fights.
    And if some American Jews or gentile evangelicals want to give to or fight for Israel let them do it on their own private dime and blood, not anyone else’s. And if some Jews want to campaign against Israeli actions they have a right to do that without being called names.
    I have seen umpteen thousand discussions by jews saying they are anti-zionist because it is racist, others saying they are zionist because it is about “nationalism” and “self determination” and etc,etc, e.t.c….arguements between jews about whether they are a race or a religion, some claim race, some claim religion, some claim both.
    What it boils down to for everyone else is this…get the Jewish/Israel/Nationalism thing out of American policy and politics. Let Israel and the Jews and evangelicals who support Israel go their own way on their own without trying to take America and the rest of us along with them. Their fights and agendas are not one of the majority of Americans.
    That seems fair to me.
    And I have to say the most hate and vitrol I have seen thrown about has been by the uber “nationalist” zionist against the non zionist jews. I mean they attack them like rabid dogs calling them “traitors” (to their jewish race and/or Israel). The comments of most non jews who critize the jewish thing in US politics or Israel are actually mild compared to most of those.
    You ought to go give them a whipping instead of GoRonGo…he’s just defending his children and his jewish wife’s right not to be dragged into or associated with the Israeli actions or AIPAC doings.
    Also a word about the “nationalism” of jews in the jewish zionist arguement.
    I recently read an article in the JTA about a Jewish-American boy who went to Israel to join the IDF. His mother who is with some jewish org in Az or somewhere was saying how proud she was of him for fighting in the IDF against Israel’s enemies.
    Does it not strike you as questionable loyalties that while the US is in a war in Iraq and famously shorthanded for recruits and troops there…that Jewish families living in the the US with US citizenship bring their children up to believe in fighting for Israel but not the country they live in?..to the extent that they would go join the IDF but not the US military while we are fighting in Iraq? This guy certainly isn’t not signing up with the US military and signing up with the IDF because he is a peacenik.
    This represents the very type of thing jews have been accused of for centuries..no loyalty to the countries they live in….and yet here they are, some of them, doing the exact same thing all over again. Is this the act of a loyal American family while the US is losing Americans hand over fist in Iraq. I think not. And is this because they are Jewish..well obviously…and becuase they place israel over the US..well obviously.
    And yea, plenty of Jews have served in the US military, my elderly jewish friend who died last September and his brother both fought in WWII…..but if you want to be honest about where the age old “carnards” about Jews and loyalty come from, you need to look to some of the jews like that family themselves as being behind the carnards…because the carnard applies in their case.
    I sure wouldn’t regard this boy or his mother as having any sense of duty or loyalty to the US at all, especially in present circumstances. I don’t know how prevalent this is among the rank and file Jews but when jewish orgs and the Israel military run ads in American papers as they are doing right now to recruit jewish americans to serve in the Israeli military and send IDF PR reps to jewish schools in the US to promote Israel and their military especially while we are in Iraq..then cleary…”Houston, we have a problem”.
    The valid question for “some” jews and even evangelics comes down to this….when your dual loyalty to Israel and to the US conflict as in this case…who you gonna choose?
    I have said over and over, you can’t have wife and a mistress at the same time, without the shit hitting the fan sooner or later. It just plain doesn’t work. Everyone has to make a choice at some point…both marriage vows and the oath of citizenship say..”forsaking all others” for a very good reason.

    Reply

  18. Marky says:

    I don’t appreciate the insinuations about name changes. Many Jews changed their names out of very justifiable fear. We don’t know when the Libby family named was changed from Liebowitz (assuming it was, which seems plausible). Libby is a lying weasel irrespective of his heritage.
    By the way, I’m fairly certain that Libby’s first name is “Irve”.

    Reply

  19. Carroll says:

    I’m thoroughly heartsick at the Dems’ limpwristed faux attempts to “end the war”. At their own peril, they mistakenly believe that those of who opposed the war from day one are “crazies”, fringe people who do not matter. Kiss your razor thin majority goodbye, DLC. You can lose without my help. I don’t need to particpate in your pathetic charade.
    And there is somewhere for us to go. Turning Green as we speak. At least I’ll still have a soul and the pleasure of voting my conscience. The DLC can do their own goddamned math. We should all send them blank checks, instead of contributions. They’ll get the message.
    Posted by Kathleen at May 30, 2007 04:03 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>
    Ditto.
    But then this is what I expected from the dems…they are after all what they are..same as repubs..self interested party politicans… first,last and always.
    Someone could do a really bang up campaign against both of them with a “Thirty Pieces of Silver” theme.

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  20. MP says:

    Kathleen writes: “We should all send them blank checks, instead of contributions.”
    A “blank check” is an UNLIMITED contribution.

    Reply

  21. Kathleen says:

    David N ,
    I have no delusions about Fred Thompson. He isn’t even a good actor, let alone a good prosecutor. Not that that stopped the Gipper.
    This regime purposely outed Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings for the purpose of putting them out of business. I guess they call that being tough on terrorism, huh? Amazing how many people can be fooled most of the time. It’s spooky.
    I’m thoroughly heartsick at the Dems’ limpwristed faux attempts to “end the war”. At their own peril, they mistakenly believe that those of who opposed the war from day one are “crazies”, fringe people who do not matter. Kiss your razor thin majority goodbye, DLC. You can lose without my help. I don’t need to particpate in your pathetic charade.
    And there is somewhere for us to go. Turning Green as we speak. At least I’ll still have a soul and the pleasure of voting my conscience. The DLC can do their own goddamned math. We should all send them blank checks, instead of contributions. They’ll get the message.

    Reply

  22. Kathleen says:

    David N ,
    I have no delusions about Fred Thompson. He isn’t even a good actor, let alone a good prosecutor. Not that that stopped the Gipper.
    This regime purposely outed Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings for the purpose of putting them out of business. I guess they call that being tough on terrorism, huh? Amazing how many people can be fooled most of the time. It’s spooky.
    I’m thoroughly heartsick at the Dems’ limpwristed faux attempts to “end the war”. At their own peril, they mistakenly believe that those of who opposed the war from day one are “crazies”, fringe people who do not matter. Kiss your razor thin majority goodbye, DLC. You can lose without my help. I don’t need to particpate in your pathetic charade.
    And there is somewhere for us to go. Turning Green as we speak. At least I’ll still have a soul and the pleasure of voting my conscience. The DLC can do their own goddamned math. We should all send them blank checks, instead of contributions. They’ll get the message.

    Reply

  23. Kathleen says:

    David N ,
    I have no delusions about Fred Thompson. He isn’t even a good actor, let alone a good prosecutor. Not that that stopped the Gipper.
    This regime purposely outed Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings for the purpose of putting them out of business. I guess they call that being tough on terrorism, huh? Amazing how many people can be fooled most of the time. It’s spooky.
    I’m thoroughly heartsick at the Dems’ limpwristed faux attempts to “end the war”. At their own peril, they mistakenly believe that those of who opposed the war from day one are “crazies”, fringe people who do not matter. Kiss your razor thin majority goodbye, DLC. You can lose without my help. I don’t need to particpate in your pathetic charade.
    And there is somewhere for us to go. Turning Green as we speak. At least I’ll still have a soul and the pleasure of voting my conscience. The DLC can do their own goddamned math. We should all send them blank checks, instead of contributions. They’ll get the message.

    Reply

  24. MP says:

    GRG writes: “But Night has been called a novel, even though Wiesel calls it memoir — and there are other questions that have been raised over the years about the way that Wiesel chose to tell his story.”
    ME: This is a far cry from “allegedly falsified”–one only has to speak English to know this. I would say it’s fiction based on memory, or fiction based on fact. But if your allegation here is that Wiesel wasn’t in the camps, etc…or lied about some other large piece of the story… or you’re purveying some other form of Holocaust denial lite, then you are way off base and making your real point in an underhanded way.
    And, as to your second point about naming Jews, I stumbled across the Forward list of 50 American Jews when I was attempting to make sure that Scooter Libby actually had changed his name.
    I don’t see anything wrong with calling out Zionists…”
    ME: Here YOU seem to be equating Jews with Zionists. After all, were you calling out Jews–what you wrote initially, what you write in the paragraph above, and what the list’s title says–or are you calling out Zionists?
    Your focus on people changing their names speaks to their Jewishness, not whether they are Zionists. Zionists don’t have specific kinds of names. Many Jewish and other immigrants changed their names when they came to this country. Some were hard to pronounce by Americans. Others wanted to fit in. Many wanted to avoid the discrimination they met with. And, of course, many did not change their names. This obsession with changing names is nothing more than racism lite, or maybe not so lite.
    More to the point, what makes you think any Zionists are in hiding? Most Zionists I know are PROUD of that fact; they don’t hide it. You seem to think that Zionism is a hateful ideology and that Zionists are at the heart of all the trouble in the ME. You’re obviously ill-informed…at best.
    Instead of smearing the national aspirations of a people…try PROVING your assertions. You claim you want real debate, but your posts are filled with innuendo sporting ugly coronas.

    Reply

  25. GoRonGo says:

    I don’t want to get into a flame war — they detract from real debate — but I think that these are important points because the coming attack on Iran is ALL about Zionism and its influence on the U.S.’ political process:
    * Libby defended uber-Zionist Marc Rich and is a very powerful Zionist in his own right. He outed Plame and took down the CIA’s ability to give accurate information on Iran’s nuclear weapons program.
    * Jon Stewart has one of the most popular comedy shows on television, and many of his viewers think that he’s the hippest thing around and a peacenik to boot. Plus his viewers consider themselves well-informed and are somewhat more aware of the issues than Fox news viewers (which is tragic all around).
    I watch Stewart and find him neo-con lite, but others probably don’t spend hours a day studying the Middle East like I do, so theyt trust that what Stewart puts out is honest, when a lot of it isn’t.
    * Wiesel’s “Night” formerly called a memoir is now being called a novel.
    From NPR’s “All Things Considered” January 18, 2006:
    “On Monday, Oprah Winfrey announced that Elie Wiesel’s novel Night will be the next selection in her book club. Commentator Peter Manseau says that Night and the memoir A Million Little Pieces by James Frey, another book club selection, have more in common than first glance might suggest.
    Pieces has been shown to be a memoir that is less than entirely factual. But Night has been called a novel, even though Wiesel calls it memoir — and there are other questions that have been raised over the years about the way that Wiesel chose to tell his story.”
    (ENTIRE LINK)
    http://tinyurl.com/37n9db
    And, as to your second point about naming Jews, I stumbled across the Forward list of 50 American Jews when I was attempting to make sure that Scooter Libby actually had changed his name.
    I don’t see anything wrong with calling out Zionists, and, believe it or not, there are many Americans who are extremely naive about the fact that much of the media, whether it be the *news* media or the entertainment industry (and I’ve worked extensively in both) is largely controlled by Israel sympathizers, and thus their perceptions on the Middle East and Islam are being shaped by people with an agenda.
    Again, I submit Oprah’s planned “support” trip to Israel and her promotion of “Night” as an example. I could also submit the late Jerry Falwell and his active work for Israel. I have a lot more to submit as evidence, but I do have to consider my career and that of my spouse’s (who again is a non-Zionist Jew).
    I will refer you once more to the Kahane site list of “Self-Hating Jews” One of my best friends is on it and she’s terrified because rabid Zionists have used violence in the past against other Jews (Rabin, anyone?)
    And again, I urge anyone who supports Israel, or ANY country’s interests, above the U.S.’ to just GO AND LIVE THERE and fight for that country firsthand, rather than using the U.S. as a proxy.

    Reply

  26. David N says:

    Kathleen:
    If you had the misfortune to have seen the recent movie version of “The Dukes of Hazard,” then you would have seen that Thompson was not Boss Hogg, but rather his tame governor, protrayed as a braying idiot. Odd that everyone brings up Thompson’s acting role as a prosecutor, as if it had anything to do with his ability as a politician or a government leader, but don’t bring up this caricature. In both cases, he’s acting, and it has nothing to do with HIM!!
    Next, regarding Plame, my old hobby horse, here goes again . . .
    Fitzgerald accomplished his primary objective by having the investigation and indictment end with Libby. This was made clear when he began by saying that it was significant whether Plame’s identity as a covert agent was public knowledge or not in determining criminal culpability.
    According to the regulations that control security and classification standards, if classified information becomes publicly known, it is still classified, and it is still a violation of standards and law to talk about it. Look it up under “Neither confirm nor deny.” Thus, Rove’s statement that Valerie Wilson’s status was “fair game” was incorrect. His discussion of her position within the CIA was illegal, and close to if not in fact treason.
    Same for Bush, who has kept Rove and others in the White House despite his pledge — ignored by all reports since the Libby trial — that he would not keep anyone who had been involved in the leaks in the White House. It’s easy to lie and go back on your word when no one points it out.
    Gore in 2008!!

    Reply

  27. MP says:

    GRG writes: “Another problem here is obfuscation: some Jews will be quite open about their passion for Israel’s welfare over the U.S.'”
    Then there’s the other, more common sentiment: a passion for the US’s welfare and Israel’s welfare.
    I have to wonder why you aren’t concerned about all those Christians who seem pretty passionate in their support for Israel.

    Reply

  28. MP says:

    GRG writes: “If people insist on equating Zionism with Jews then that’s exactly what’s going to happen.”
    I dunno, GRG. It is YOU who, in two posts above, seem intent on revealing the Jewish–not the Zionist, but the Jewish–identities of Jon Stewart and Scotter Libby. Moreover, it is YOU who feel that it’s important, or somehow damning, or revealing (revealing of what?) to publish a list of Jews–Jews, not Zionists–who are making a mark on America.
    Your more than a little OT statement: “…Elie Wiesel, he of the allegedly falsified Jewish holocaust memoir “Night”…is, of course, completely false itself. That isn’t the controversy at all. He wrote two versions of “the book.” There’s much to be said about the relationship between the two, but “falsification” isn’t really the issue at all.

    Reply

  29. MP says:

    GRG writes: “If people insist on equating Zionism with Jews then that’s exactly what’s going to happen.”
    I dunno, GRG. It is YOU who, in two posts above, seem intent on revealing the Jewish–not the Zionist, but the Jewish–identities of Jon Stewart and Scotter Libby. Moreover, it is YOU who feel that it’s important, or somehow damning, or revealing (revealing of what?) to publish a list of Jews–Jews, not Zionists–who are making a mark on America.
    Your more than a little OT statement: “…Elie Wiesel, he of the allegedly falsified Jewish holocaust memoir “Night”…is, of course, completely false itself. That isn’t the controversy at all. He wrote two versions of “the book.” There’s much to be said about the relationship between the two, but “falsification” isn’t really the issue at all.

    Reply

  30. GoRonGo says:

    If people insist on equating Zionism with Jews then that’s exactly what’s going to happen.
    Another problem here is obfuscation: some Jews will be quite open about their passion for Israel’s welfare over the U.S.’, or whatever country they actually reside in, but dare a non-Zionist Jew, or a goyim, to call them on their own statements and we’re “anti-Semites.”
    No kidding — go to Kahane’s website for a list of “Self-hating Jews.”
    http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html
    But Israel supporters’ goon squad, strong arm tactics are not working any more with people who follow the Middle East, as I do. I would suggest, and have suggested ad nauseam, that everyone read the Israeli papers and watch Israeli news (via LinkTV.org) — get it straight from the source.
    In my opinion, Israel is a racist, apartheid, rogue, parasitic state, and it’s been documented (just view a video of any AIPAC convention) that her supporters in the U.S. are trying to browbeat and/or threaten the U.S. congress into attacking Iran. I also believe that Israel by her actions alone is doing non-Zionist Jews a huge disservice.
    So if some Jews want to equate all Jews with Israel, then the former should take (on a personal level) the anger directed at Israel.
    Israel’s supporters, whether they be Zionist Jews or Zionist Christians, should just go there and join the IDF. Fight for what you believe in — put your body where you typing fingers are.
    And leave the rest of us alone. Leave the children I love, some of whom are half-Jews, ALONE. They are already being taunted in school — how far do the Zionist Jews want to go in reinforcing old stereotypes of *traitorous* Jews ?

    Reply

  31. MP says:

    GRG: “And before the thought police hurl the “anti-semite” slur at me, my spouse, whom I love very much, is Jewish, so SHUT THE HELL UP. We’re about to enter WW III and it’s time to acknowledge Zionism’s role in it.”
    No need for anyone else to “hurl”–except in the alimentary sense of the word–you’ve done it to yourself.

    Reply

  32. GoRonGo says:

    The folks over at Free Republic are all for Thompson. Now that can kind of be a good thing because it shows a deep division amongst the yahoos.
    Speaking of presidential candidates, here are three must see tidbits (the entire article/video can be found at the link):
    RON PAUL GETS 91% IN STRAW POLL; NOT THE WORK OF SPAMMERS
    Popular online web site dedicated to election polls proves that the online support of Ron Paul is legitimate and not the work of spammers.
    Washington D.C. (PRWEB) May 29, 2007 — USAElectionPolls.com ran its first ever straw poll on May 27, 2007. The poll read as follows “Who’s Your Republican of Choice?” and the possible choices were Fred Thompson, Ron Paul, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Mitt Romney.
    http://tinyurl.com/38wj9r
    Clinton (Hitlery) DIDN’T READ 2002 IRAQ REPORT (BEFORE VOTING FOR WAR — she’s saying her advisors did — just great! Wonder how closer her advisors are to Israel? Judging by her war-mongering statements on the Middle East I would say, “VERY.”
    http://tinyurl.com/3cqsp4
    Audio/video of ABC as Guiliani tells Peter Jennings that he was warned that WTC would collapse
    (Hmmmmmmmm…let’s all take a moment to remember that the Mother of all *Conspiracy Theories* was Dumbo’s 2003 State of the Union address.
    Then pause and think to yourself (after watching this ) “Just what did Benito Guiliani AKA “America’s Mayor” get out of 9/11??? A *credible* presidential campaign for one…)
    http://tinyurl.com/2fhh4b
    Hey, Israeli news is fascinating today, actually this is yesterday’s show on Mosaic (LinkTV.org) looks like Olmert is going down and Bibi Netanyahu just might a contender. Oy Vey.

    Reply

  33. Homer says:

    Why does Fred Thompson **hate** justice, the rule of law?
    Bush: I thought in Washington he handled the case with professionalism, he was very professional about it. (07 Jul 06)
    Snow: The President has said that he appreciates the diligence and professionalism of Mr. Fitzgerald. (07, Mar 2007)
    McClellan: We want [Fitzgerald] to come to a successful conclusion, and he continues to do his work. (24 Oct 05)
    Q: Can you just clarify what you mean by that?
    McClellan: That he’s able to come to a successful completion to the investigation, and determine the facts and then outline those facts for the American people. (18 Oct 05)

    Reply

  34. AlanDownunder says:

    Richard Carlson eh? No wonder his little kiddy, Tucker, is so invariably spot off. Long past time he flew the coop, but I guess he’s developmentally disabled – like a lot of the current crop of baby neocons.

    Reply

  35. AlanDownunder says:

    Richard Carlson eh? No wonder his little kiddy, Tucker, is so invariably spot off. Long past time he flew the coop, but I guess he’s developmentally disabled – like a lot of the current crop of baby neocons.

    Reply

  36. Homer says:

    Why does Fred Thompson **hate** justice, the rule of law?
    Bush: I thought in Washington he handled the case with professionalism, he was very professional about it. (07 Jul 06)
    Snow: The President has said that he appreciates the diligence and professionalism of Mr. Fitzgerald. (07, Mar 2007)
    McClellan: We want [Fitzgerald] to come to a successful conclusion, and he continues to do his work. (24 Oct 05)
    Q: Can you just clarify what you mean by that?
    McClellan: That he’s able to come to a successful completion to the investigation, and determine the facts and then outline those facts for the American people. (18 Oct 05)

    Reply

  37. Dave says:

    From the Newsweek article:
    “One of Libby’s most ardent defenders, Richard Carlson, a former chief of the Voice of America who serves as a member of a defense trust set up for Libby, reacted harshly to Fitzgerald’s latest filings. “I think it’s certainly unseemly that he is kicking him while he’s down,” Carlson said. “For Fitzgerald, to get on his high horse, it’s disgusting and he should be ashamed of himself.””
    Yeah, how unfair of a prosecutor to do his job and prosecute criminals and send them to jail! What a meanie!
    I thought Republicans were supposed to be tough on crime.

    Reply

  38. liz says:

    At the time of Plame’s outing, my best friend was overseas undercover . He called me on the run. He said he and his team were rounded up and moved pronto when news of this leak surfaced. The team was taken down in other words. No more information from those sources now. Network destroyed.
    Many lines of information were destroyed with this outing. Our entire national security was basically ” disabled” for lack of a better word.
    The officers were appalled that someone would
    “snitch” and place their lives and their contacts lives in danger.
    People need to understand the damage in this situation is just as much about the United States security not to negate the damage personally done to Ms. Plame .
    I think elected people should be required to re read the Constitution of the United States of Ameirca. Either they never learned it or they don’t care about it or they are trying their best to change it.
    A lot of blood went into that Constitution and I feel the leaders of today want more blood to keep this document alive. It is MORE THAN a piece of paper …………..

    Reply

  39. Carroll says:

    Thompson reminds me of the “Boss Hoggs” that used to populate county sherrif’s and magistrates offices in the old timey south.
    I see nothing to recommend him at all.

    Reply

  40. TonyForesta says:

    All this jabbering and regurgitation of information everyone but fascist in the Bush government already know is impotent and fruitless.
    Plame was a COVERT agency asset working on nuclear weapons proliferation. The concerted effort to seek revenge on Joseph Wilson for daring to speak the truth and debunk one of a festering litany of fascist OSP/OSI/WHIG/Chalabi concocted LIES by outing Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings & Associates is an act of TREASON.
    EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD BE DEMANDING IMPEACHMENT!!!!
    ANY DEMOCRAT WHO REFUSED TO PUT IMPEACHMENT BACK ON THE TABLE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM, NOT THE SOLUTION, AND A WILLING COMPLICIT PATNER IN THE FASCIST BUSH GOVERNMENT RUTHLESS PERVERSION, BETRAYAL, AND REENGINEERING OF THE RULE OF LAW, THE LAWS OF THE LAND, THE CONSTITUTION, AND EVERY PRINICPLE THAT FORMALLY DEFINED AMERICA.
    American need to quit jabbering about all the perfidious crimes, systemic malfeasance, treacheries and treason of the fascists in the Bush government and DEMAND IMPEACHMENT NOW!!!
    “Deliver us from evil!”

    Reply

  41. Rich says:

    Plame was ‘covert’ agent at time of name leak
    Newly released unclassified document details CIA employment
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/

    Reply

  42. Comment says:

    Steve
    Re: Fred Thompson
    Read Norman Mailer’s “Interview with Ehrlichman” in his compilation “Time Of Her Time.”
    You will find the roots of Fred Thompson’s interest in defending Libby in that interview, even though it was conducted in 1976.
    Otherwise – you’ll just have to take ‘Ole Fred’s word that he just decided to defend someone he did not know because he saw an injustice done.
    The Interview w/ Ehrlichman doesn’t provide an answer, but some pretty good clues and it explains why you Thompson (aside from being a phony who can gull Chris Matthews) should never be President.

    Reply

  43. GoRonGo says:

    Libby was Marc Rich’s lawyer — remember the controversy surrounding Clinton’s pardon of Rich? Marc Rich is an uber-Zionist.
    The Clintons will be just as, if not more, culpable than the McCain/Guiliani/Romney Zionists when WW III starts, because to this day they are snowing gullible Democrats into believing that the Democrats stand for peace. When all the Democrats stand for are the military/industrial complex and the Zionists, same as the GOP.

    Reply

  44. Kathleen says:

    Lest we forget, the first Libby Defense Fundraiser was at the home of Clinton advisor, James Carville.
    Yes, I know, it was his wife, Mary Maitlin who gsve the event, but how arm’s length do you think that was? Who exactly is “advising” the DNC/DLC to take impeachment off the table? Kind of a conflict of interest, if you ask me.
    Busholini and Captain Ahab should be impeached for contempt of our Constitution and failure to honor their oath of office. Their consistant undermining of our Constitutional process is subversive, at best, and downright treasonous to our form of government.
    I’m sure if the positions were reversed, and it was a Democratic administration that had shown such disdain for our Constitution and Congress, the RNC would be impeaching. Hell, if a Democratic administration had a ham sandwich in the Lincoln bedroom, they’d lower the boom.
    The Democratas’ failure to do the right thing in honoring their own oaths of office to protect our Constitution will result in greater voter apathy and further erosion of public trust in our electoral process.
    How lacking in valor. That must be on old world value.
    I thought only Kings were not impeachable.

    Reply

  45. Kathleen says:

    Lest we forgot the first Libby Defense Fundraiser was at the home of Clinton advisor, James Carville.
    Yes, I know, it was his wife, Mary Maitlin who gsve the event, but how arm’s length do you think that was? Who exactly is “advising” the DNC/DLC to take impeachment off the table? Kind of a conflict of interest, if you ask me.
    Busholini and Captain Ahab should be impeached for contempt of our Constitution and failure to honor their oath of office. Their consistant undermining of our Constitutional process is subversive, at best, and downright treasonous to our form of government.
    I’m sure if the positions were reversed, and it was a Democratic administration that had shown such disdain for our Constitution and Congress, the RNC would be impeaching. Hell, if a Democratic administration had a ham sandwich in the Lincoln bedroom, they’d lower the boom.
    The Democratas’ failure to do the right thing in honoring their own oaths of office to protect our Constitution will result in greater voter apathy and further erode trust in our electoral process. How lacking in valor. That must be on old world value.
    I thought only Kings were not impeachable.

    Reply

  46. GoRonGo says:

    Whoops forgot to post the URL to the Forward list (from today!!! May 29, 2007) of American Jews who are making a mark on the world. Here it is — VERY interesting:
    http://www.forward.com/forward-50/

    Reply

  47. GoRonGo says:

    More on topic, “Scooter” Libby’s alleged real name is Irving Lewis Liebowitz — why the name change “Scooter”?
    BTW: Jon Stewart of the Daily Show’s real last name is Leibowitz, but it was Stewart’s puff-ball interview of Richard Perle, and his “coverage” of anything that has to do with Israel, and of Judiasm, that really has me thinking that Stewart is a closet neo-con.
    Here’s a very interesting list from the prominent Jewish daily “The Forward” of 50 American Jews who “are making a difference in the way American Jews, for better or worse, view the world and themselves. Not all these people have put their energies into the traditional frameworks of Jewish community life, but they all have embodied the spirit of Jewish action as it is emerging in America, and all of them have left a mark.”
    And before the thought police hurl the “anti-semite” slur at me, my spouse, whom I love very much, is Jewish, so SHUT THE HELL UP. We’re about to enter WW III and it’s time to acknowledge Zionism’s role in it.

    Reply

  48. unbill says:

    I am sure it is merely a lapsus, but Libby is no longer “indicted”, but rather convicted!

    Reply

  49. GoRonGo says:

    This is a little OT, but the Goddess Oprah herself is going to Israel to show solidarity with the Israelis and their “War on Terror”. She was invited by Elie Wiesel, he of the allegedly falsified Jewish holocaust memoir “Night”
    Please don’t scoff at Oprah’s power — she is one of the most powerful people in the world. Her audience of clapping seals are very representative of America’s soccer/ security moms and she mind controls them. I’ve witnessed it first-hand.
    But her influence goes beyond the U.S. — I met a man who was doing a thesis on Oprah’s effect on the Middle East. Her program is syndicated in many countries, including Iraq. Oh the irony of the “desperate housewives” of Iraq being forced to watch a super-model deal with depression…
    Here’s the URL of the Ynet news story detailing Oprah’s “Solidarity Visit” to Israel:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3403333,00.html

    Reply

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