Zbigniew Brzezinski on Rice’s Diplomacy and Middle East Mess

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Last Thursday night, my colleagues and I at the American Strategy Program of the New America Foundation hosted an extraordinary dinner at which Zbigniew Brzezinski spoke about America’s stakes in the worsening Middle East crisis.
I am working this weekend to review the transcript of Dr. Brzezinski’s opening remarks — and may post this and his riveting response to some questions shortly.
But as a teaser, Paul Richter of the Los Angeles Times has this comment from the Brzezinski dinner in his latest on Condi Rice’s diplomatic effort:

Rice said that Hezbollah, because of its attacks on Israel, had disqualified itself from any future role in the Lebanese government. However, they would have to find a way to give Shiite Muslims, Lebanon’s largest group, a voice in government.
Rice is not planning to meet leaders of Syria or Hezbollah on this trip. The Syrians, who have strong influence over Hezbollah, have been contacted by many European and Arab countries and do not need a direct dialogue with the Americans, she said.
Others disagree strongly. Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security advisor to President Carter, said last week at a dinner sponsored by the New America Foundation that if Rice doesn’t meet with leaders the administration does not approve of, her trip would amount to “sitting in front of a mirror, talking to herself.”
“That’s not diplomacy,” Brzezinski said.
Rice also might face difficulties talking to U.S. allies in the region. Three major Arab countries — Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia — are important participants in the new effort to make peace.

More soon.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

67 comments on “Zbigniew Brzezinski on Rice’s Diplomacy and Middle East Mess

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  5. MP says:

    “Well actually MP ….my opinion that the jewish mentality does suffer from self induced neurosis is one that is shared by Jacquline Rose, a jew herself, a respected researcher, author and professor, who wrote “the Question of Zion”.
    So evidently I am not alone in that opinion and my non professional observation is not far of the mark.”
    Well, you know Carroll, a lot of people have said a lot of things. And Jews, in all honesty, have said more than most. Two Jews, three opinions is an old expression. But just because you read it doesn’t mean it’s true. And if more folks, many more folks, say X than say Y, it’s a pretty good bet that X has a wee bit more credibility. You’ve accused a number of folks here of cherry- picking their facts. Well, you’re cherry picking your books.
    For you not to recognize the overwhelming and millennium-long record of anti-Semitism around the world…
    For you not to recognize the role anti-Semitism played in the creation of the State of Israel, both on the part of Jewish and non-Jewish actors…
    For you not to recognize the role of anti-Semitism in American Jews’ relation and support for Israel, even when such issues as stem cell research are in play…
    For you not to recognize the role of anti-Semitism as a backdrop to a lot of what Israel does, both good, bad, and ugly…
    In short, for you to try to make the case that anti-Semitism is really just a bunch of brainwashing of Jews by their leaders is MINDBOGGLINGLY IGNORANT. Just because some Jews see anti-Semitism where it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and hasn’t existed for a very, very long time, sometimes in a benign form and sometimes in a highly virulent form. It has had a HUGE impact on Jewish life and on the Jewish psyche. It isn’t something the Jews cooked up to make gentiles feel guilty.
    If you don’t recognize this history, your comments on the Israeli/Palestinian/Arab conflict really contribute very little toward moving toward a solution, or even understanding why Israel does what she does, even when she is horribly wrong. You think you do, to be sure, but you don’t.
    To call Jews traitors and duals for supporting Israel, as you do repeatedly, is just an abomination. To call for their removal, while you leave in place evangelical abortion clinic bombers and murderers–you aren’t deporting them, I take it, because they aren’t duals–leaves you in a pathetically absurd situation. You’ll be eliminating one of the most reliably liberal voting blocks in American history, which will only make the right wing an even bigger percentage of the American electorate and therefore stronger.
    Even the article you quote doesn’t really support your positiion. It ends with this, ““We will wait and resolve this issue until the issue with Israel is resolved, but will our basic support for stem-cell research change? No.”
    Jews still overwhelmingly support stem cell research, while many of your “real” American’s don’t. But if you don’t really “get” why so many Jews feel that Israel is such an important issue–but only see it as a traiterous act–then you have no understanding of what is happening or why.
    Fortunately, you have no power, for now at least. But I’m keeping my eye on the trend you represent, because it is the beginnings of facism in this country. Back in the 40s, the lefties supported Uncle Joe; I wonder who you’ll be supporting? Or what kinds of “programs” you’ll be supporting to “rid” this country of “traitors,” “duals,” and people like me?
    As sick as I am about what Bush has done to this country…I’m just as sick about the ignorant crap you’re spreading here.
    BTW, you referenced the British Archives and the Truman Library. If you have any links–or books–you think I should read, please be specific and cite them. I have an open mind and always willing to learn new things.

    Reply

  6. Carroll says:

    Well actually MP ….my opinion that the jewish mentality does suffer from self induced neurosis is one that is shared by Jacquline Rose, a jew herself, a respected researcher, author and professor, who wrote “the Question of Zion”.
    So evidently I am not alone in that opinion and my non professional observation is not far of the mark.
    “The fact that you think–and have said many times–that the long history of Jewish oppression in virtually every kind of society–from Iraq to Spain–in every period from 1492 to today–in virtually every social evirnoment–from totally assimilated to ghettoized to factotum for royalty–is simply a function of Jewish leaders brainwashing their brethren simply shows your ignorance”

    Reply

  7. Carroll says:

    Another excellent example of Israeli firsters in congress legislating for the benefit of Israel.
    There is no logical reason for US trade agreements being tied to Israel…another than the recongized fact that….we have a large number of zionist in our congress who use every function of the US goverment for the benefit of Israel.
    Oman says it won’t boycott Israel
    Oman and the United States signed a free trade agreement that includes guarantees that the Persian Gulf state won’t boycott Israel.
    Oman’s finance minister made the commitment in a letter to the U.S. trade representative.
    Both houses of Congress ratified the agreement last week and President Bush is expected to sign it this week.
    The United States recently has made such agreements conditional on ending the boycott against Israel; similar language was included this year in the U.S.-Bahrain free trade agreement.
    Oversight on the Oman agreement will not be as burdensome as with Bahrain, since Oman openly trades with Israel and allows an Israeli trade mission to operate on its territory.

    Reply

  8. MP says:

    Hmmm. You seem to think you were the first to discover these facts about the founding of Israel. You also seem to think that these facts will point any right-minded person to the same conclusions you’ve come to. You also seem to think any person who sees these facts and still supports the state of Israel is a traitor a racist and should be deported (or something).
    Ah, sorry. Many people know these facts besides you. Many Jewish people, in fact. Yet they’ve come to a different conclusions. The fact that you don’t think this is possible for a right-thinking person shows how limited you really are.
    The fact that you think–and have said many times–that the long history of Jewish oppression in virtually every kind of society–from Iraq to Spain–in every period from 1492 to today–in virtually every social evirnoment–from totally assimilated to ghettoized to factotum for royalty–is simply a function of Jewish leaders brainwashing their brethren simply shows your ignorance.
    This fact requires no research on the part of anyone, because you’ve laid it out your strange views, here and elsewhere on this blog, for anyone to see.
    But you’re in luck! You don’t have to travel to the British Archives, the National Archives, or the Truman library to correct this. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of books on this subject. And all you have to do is read one with an open mind.

    Reply

  9. Carroll says:

    Ah sooo..MP
    All of us are ignorant except you. Interesting.
    I most often make two seperate statements:
    That some jews, let’s call them zionist activist,(along with neo’s and etc.) are bad for this country.
    And
    That this does not represent all jews.
    And yet all you can do is insult me because you don’t like the first statement.
    Now if someone was saying ALL the jews are bad I would be one of the ones loudly protesting that notion and you would be my best buddy on the thread. But if I point out the obvious about the cultism of zionist activist I am a jew hater.
    Maybe you can figure out what is wrong with your emotional point of view here. NO? Well let me help you… go back and read all of your post. One thing will come shining thru. You can’t see any point of view or any interest of any other humans except your own as a jew…that jews and all thing associated with jews like Israel should get a free pass for eternity for anything they do to anyone because they are “victims”.
    I don’t know what it would take to disabuse you of your notions..maybe a trip thru real history, not the myth put out by Jewish history. Why don’t you start with the British National Archives of official documents and records cocerning the zionist movement and the creation of Israel. I made that trip and those “facts” are what I base my opinions on concerning Israel and what is at the heart of everything that zionist in that country have done since 1890.
    And if you think there is nothing wrong with zionist activism as political pressure and it hasn’t hurt this country I suggest a trip also thru the US Presidential Libraries records and memo’s..start with Truman.
    Come back when you have done this and we can have a discussion on where the line should be drawn on the so called “right to lobby” defense you use to excuse a subversion of American interest.

    Reply

  10. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “You don’t seems to get that your “rationalizations” are just rationalizations:
    1) US & Isr interest are the same
    2) Lots of people have interest beyond this country therefore it is o.k.
    3) a difference of opinion in what is good for this country excuses those who have a higher loyalty to another country.
    These are lies people tell themselves to “justify” their actions or beliefs.
    Let me give you a good real time example of how the Jewish fealty to Israel is bad for this country, bad for humanity and illustrates everything I have said about the cult mentality of Jewish groups who cleave to Israel.
    Groups quiet on stem-cell research
    as Bush goes to the boards for Israel
    By Ron Kampeas
    July 24, 2006″
    Carroll: Let me say first that it grieves me deeply (no sarcasm here at all) that Bush is able to manipulate parts of the Jewish community on issues like stem cell research. Though my family supports Israel, every member of our family worked assiduously in 2000 and 2004 (both in campaigns and through large donations) to defeat Bush both times. We have also given until it hurts to Congressional campaigns and my daughter, at this very moment, is working full days to defeat Santorum in PA and will continue to do so even after she returns to college in the Fall.
    If you knew anything about the Jewish community, you’d know it was a lot more than the headlines. And that is true of all people.
    In terms of stem cells and many, many other issues where Jews as a group or as individuals (many of them good Zionists) have taken a stand, you have much bigger problems from people whom you’d call real Americans–that is, people who don’t have “dual loyalties” as you put it. You can take gun control or reproductive rights or gay rights or civil rights…folks who don’t have “dual loyalties” regularly take and vehemently support pretty bad positions. You don’t give these people a pass, to be sure, but you don’t throw them out of the country and you don’t call them traitors. Because, of course, they have no “fealty” to any other country, do they? You call this slop thinking?
    And, frankly, it is this double standard that is essentially anti-Semitic. I’m sorry you don’t and perhaps can’t recognize it for what it is. David Duke would be HAPPY to march along side you, and you can’t even see it. Your knowledge of Jewish history is extraordinarily poor and this leads you to call people who support Israel cultists, racists, and traitors. It’s really, really sad.
    And, in fact, dangerous for this country. Because once you and POA start calling folks traitors for their beliefs and opinions, you are entering McCarthy territory and beyond that outright facism. The Jews have often been the “canaries” in this dark tunnel…and here we are again. If you knew even a tiny bit about history, you’d know the logic of your remarks. But you don’t. To you, thousands of years of brutal anti-Semitism culminating, but not ending, in 20th century facism, is just a bunch brainwashing. You sit in your room and decide that the effect of this millennium-long history has to be just “cancelled out.” What a sad, sad joke.
    Your remark, elsewhere, that Islamic racists were somehow preferrable to Jewish ones because at least they’re upfront about it and don’t try to hide it is so typical of your sloppy, unethical, factually inaccurate, ineffectual, and often vaguely anti-Semitic thinking.
    I can take and think about lots of critcisms of Israel and the Jewish establishment–and lots of ways to move to peace–and have long before you woke up to this issue–but when you start calling people traitors, racists, and cultists because of their opinions or traditions, you’ve really crossed a line. I don’t know which is sadder–that you’re moving, inexorably it seems, toward becoming a facist–or that you (and POA, for that matter) haven’t offered a single idea that has even the slightest chance of helping to achieve peace in the Middle East.
    As to your silly assertions at the top of your post:
    “1) US & Isr interest are the same
    2) Lots of people have interest beyond this country therefore it is o.k.
    3) a difference of opinion in what is good for this country excuses those who have a higher loyalty to another country.
    These are lies people tell themselves to “justify” their actions or beliefs.”
    1) US and Israeli interests dovetail in certain ways; they aren’t the same. We are closer, I’d have to say, than we are to people who openly espouse wiping another country off the map or who deny that 6 million Jews were killed. To crib from POA’s debating style, isn’t it funny how you and he always give these folks a pass?
    2) Yes, it is okay. And it’s going to get more and more okay, or inevitable, as the world becomes more interconnected.
    3) This isn’t even a thought; it’s gobbledygook. As I said to POA in another post, any American caught spying for another country, including Israel, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But everyone has the right to argue and lobby for any cause they wish. No doubt every government on earth (who can afford it) has lobbyists on the Hill trying to persuade us to do or support something. That’s just how politics works and always will work. It’s sad you know so little about “your” own country.
    Oh my, I missed this one at the end of your post:
    “If the case for Israel was legitimate to the majority of this country they wouldn’t have to trade it off for another issue that is important to 100% of humanity.”
    Ah yes, the Jews against humanity! No, 100% of humanity! Never mind that the biggest and most vocal opponents of stem cell research are good Americans Carroll would never dream of calling traitors. It’s the Jews, the Zionists, the cultists who are, what?, trying to do in humanity. For what cause? So they can kill Muslims, of course!

    Reply

  11. Mustapha Noman says:

    Unfortunately the USA doesn’t listen to the views of its allies in the region,untill it’s too late. The current crisis in the Middle East, would embolden the popularity of extremist groups (not necessarily terrorists).
    The feeling of anger, desperation, hoplessness, and frustration that has been mounting in the minds of Arab people, is being defused by the rockets falling on Israeli cities and the inflammatory speeches on Arab TVs. This feeling is due to several reasons that have been debated, and debated and debated for years.
    I have told Sec Powell in a meeeting that took place on the Dead Sea (during the Economic Forum Jordan) in 1994, that the image of the USA is so distorted in the minds of its allies, to the point the we are left with no single card in hand. I added that a lot of work should be done to regain the image of the US that we want and love.
    Unfortunately, all the steps and policies, added more fire to the resentment of citizens against any actions (even good ones) coming out of DC.
    All calls for reforms and democrtization policies would be challenged because of the image deeply imprinted in the mind.

    Reply

  12. km4 says:

    US Mideast policy, under Bush, is largely whatever the Israeli government says it wants. So the long term effect of this on US-Arab relations generally, and the US ability to be constructively involved in any serious peace process, is once again under debate.
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2006_07_23.php#009167

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  13. km4 says:

    Saw it on CBS (29+ / 0-)
    Yes, Israel is attacking Red Cross ambulances. On the PBS Newshour, they showed a report of the widespread devastation by Israel bombing civilian apartment buildings.
    Israel apparently has decided to hell with international law and the Geneva Conventions. The USA is its constant enabler, even today Condalezza Rice was rejecting Lebanese (and the Pope’s, and the rest of the world’s) call for a cease-fire.
    Evidently, Israel and the USA administration believes it is ok to destroy a nation in order to make life a little better for another nation-Israel.
    Using this logic, the USA should just go and blow up everything in Paksitan-civilian apartment buildings, electrical power plants, dams, bridges, etc., in order to punish Pakistan because Osama Bin Ladin might be taking refuge there.
    I have never been so angry and ashamed of my country for going along with these war crimes.
    by Michigan Paul on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 05:17:13 PM PDT

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  14. Robert Hume says:

    I agree with MP that many Jews want to give back the territories. Those Jews are the strongest pro-Palestinian force in the US today. (Which is a sad commentary that non-Jewish, non-Muslim Americans fear to tread in that issue.)
    Nonetheless, their co-religionists have them and MP beat, and badly, e.g. 410 to 10 in the House.
    I choose to focus on the territories because Israel has title to the pre-1967 land because it was awarded by the UN. Israel signed the Third Geneva Conventions in 1948-49 and under those conventions Israel has no right to settle its citizens in land conquered in war; although it has the right to occupy that land indefinitely.
    It is often said, for example, that we occupied land conquered from the Indians. That was before the Geneva Conventions. International law has advanced from might makes right.
    If Israel had given give back the territories, it would have clear title to Israel proper, and the vast majority of the world would have thereafter been supportive of Israel in any remaining disputes.
    It’s not too late and it’s the only way.

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  15. Matthew says:

    Clearly, Mr. Ganji isn’t getting invited to the Halliburton picnic.

    Reply

  16. km4 says:

    Iran activist ‘snubs White House’
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211840.stm
    Iranian dissident Akbar Ganji declined to meet White House officials during a visit to the US, he has told the BBC.
    Mr Ganji said he had been invited to discuss the current situation in Iran.
    He said he rejected the offer because he believed current US policies could not help promote democracy in Iran.
    The White House declined to comment.

    Reply

  17. Conditional Support says:

    If Israel pulls out of all settlements and the neocon (i.e. MOSSAD agents) influence on American policy is reduced by 99%, I would back Israel in any fight against Islamic crazies. I would even be happy to join them. But I won’t stand by Israel as the American public is being duped and our traditional allies in Europe are being treated as disposable and second class (relative to Israel).

    Reply

  18. Carroll says:

    Of course you don’t accept my premise MP…because if you acknowledged the fact that one can serve two masters indefinitely then you have no logical arguement.
    You don’t seems to get that your “rationalizations” are just rationalizations:
    1) US & Isr interest are the same
    2) Lots of people have interest beyond this country therefore it is o.k.
    3) a difference of opinion in what is good for this country excuses those who have a higher loyalty to another country.
    These are lies people tell themselves to “justify” their actions or beliefs.
    Let me give you a good real time example of how the Jewish fealty to Israel is bad for this country, bad for humanity and illustrates everything I have said about the cult mentality of Jewish groups who cleave to Israel.
    Groups quiet on stem-cell research
    as Bush goes to the boards for Israel
    By Ron Kampeas
    July 24, 2006
    WASHINGTON, July 23 (JTA) — American Jews were ready to take President Bush to the boards over stem-cell research.
    And then he went to the boards for Israel.
    The same groups that led the fight to get substantial congressional majorities for federally funded embryonic stem-cell research said the conflagration in the Middle East, and Bush’s unstinting support for Israel took some of the wind out of their plans to fight a rearguard action against his veto.
    At least for now.
    “Would we go to the boards? Last week I would have said yes, this week I don’t know,” said June Walker, the president of Hadassah, the group that led Jewish advocacy for federally funded stem-cell research.
    “We will wait and resolve this issue until the issue with Israel is resolved, but will our basic support for stem-cell research change? No.”
    Oddly enough the “only” stem cell advocate groups backing off the issue right now are the Jewish ones who put Israel, a foreign country, in violation of international law, ahead of the good of the rest of humanity.
    You don’t have to reply. We both know there is no reply. If the case for Israel was legitimate to the majority of this country they wouldn’t have to trade it off for another issue that is important to 100% of humanity.

    Reply

  19. MP says:

    “The NRA and the AMA advance issues, and lobby for issues, that pertain to the quality of life in AMERICA. They DO NOT lobby for the interests of a foreign nation. Your comparison is simplistic, deflective, and inane. To compare AIPAC in such a manner is intellectually dishonest, and you know it.”
    The people in AIPAC are Americans and have a right to lobby for whomever or whatever they wish. Period. I’m fairly certain that Palestinians are up on the Hill pressing their cause. I am sure blacks lobby for aid to Africa. Most countries, I’m sure, have their lobbyist groups in DC that pressure Congress on various issues. Perhaps those weren’t the most precise examples, but the principle still stands: An American is not a traitor for lobbying Congress on issues that pertain to America’s foreign relations. Even if you and Carroll and 99% of all other Americans disagree with him. If he’s effective, more power to him.

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  20. Pissed Off American says:

    The NRA and the AMA advance issues, and lobby for issues, that pertain to the quality of life in AMERICA. They DO NOT lobby for the interests of a foreign nation. Your comparison is simplistic, deflective, and inane. To compare AIPAC in such a manner is intellectually dishonest, and you know it. You have just displayed one of the reasons any discourse about Israel gets so heated. A vast majority of your arguments are condescending in their obviously contrived logic, and seem to presume a total lack of intelligence on the part of those people you are targetting with this crap.

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  21. Matthew says:

    Notice how Israel wants the “buffer” to go to the Litani River. I wonder how much of that flow will be diverted to the Galilee?
    Sorry, David you are mistaken. Israel does want Lebanese territory–or at least, the top soil. The BBC reported before the end of the occupation of South Lebanon how Israel was stealing soil from Lebanon and carting it back into Israel.
    P.S. If you really want irony, google “South Lebanon Army.” I guess private militias are only acceptable in Lebanon when they are allied with Israel.
    And I hope the posters to this site how noticed how many commentator have used the words “clean out” Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon. I guess you have to adopt the vocabulary of Milosovic before you act him like…

    Reply

  22. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “And the main point is: Are dual loyalties acceptable when it causes people who hold them to injure one of their countries for the advancement of another? Answer the question.”
    I don’t accept your premise: Supporting Israel is not equivalent to hurting America. I simply don’t agree with you. In your eyes, it seems, that makes me a traitor. To call this a dual loyalty is just strange. America, and many different kinds of Americans, have interests that extend beyond our borders. It’s not treason. Just because I care about Israel doesn’t mean I don’t put America first. We disagree about what America’s interests are, though I’m sure our views dovetail at certain points.
    Just for the record, I have never supported the settlements and have argued, since about 1968, that Israel should give back those lands. Nor do I support the Greater Israel folks. Where the border gets drawn is a matter for negotiation. Unfortunately, international forces haven’t been too effective at keeping the peace in the past–I wish they were. So do most Israelis.
    To Mr. Hume’s point, prior to 1967, all the land we’re arguing about belonged to Jordan and Egypt. They never did a thing to help create a Palestinian state on the land Palestinians say they want a state on. In fact, these countries owned, or at least operated, what Palestinians now call Palestinian land. Did the Palestinians attack Egypt and Jordan to take back their Palestinian land? I honestly don’t know. Jordan never seemed too fond of their Palestinian population.
    So, for Hume to say that giving back these territories would have averted this mess is, at best, questionable. Back then, the Palestinians argued that the WHOLE of Palestine was theirs and they would settle for nothing less. Hizbollah says that today as does Hamas.
    I have always argued that Israel has a huge responsibility in settling this mess. But to suggest that Israel is a demon here, and is the only one with unmet responsibilities, is just not supported by the facts.
    And just to address some of Craig Robert’s points: Saying that Israel is artificial is another way of denying its legitimacy. And denying Jews’ continuous several thousand year long presence in that land. To call it ALL Arab land is just a plain lie. For an artificial country, it’s certainly accomplished a great deal in 50 or so years and, in fact, contributes a great deal to the world through research, development projects in Africa and around the globe. Much per square foot and per person than all those “unartificial” Arab and Muslim surrounding it.
    For too long, Israelis and Jews felt that Israel’s birth had to be “immaculate” for the state to have any legitimacy. The new Israeli historians have punctured that myth. It is an equally damaging, and inaccurate, myth to assert that Israel is the devil.
    I agree with Roberts that it is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel. But it may be anti-Semitic to insist that Israel meet standards that no other nation, civilized or not, has ever met or is ever likely to.
    As far as Israeli influence and Jewish influence, it’s a sad, tiresome tirade. Every minority–every person–in America has a right to make his voice heard. Some folks are better at than others. In the end, American leaders have the sole power to decide how America uses its resources. Israel didn’t send America into Iraq; America sent itself there. Whether Israel liked or didn’t like it is immaterial to me. Whether Sharon boasts that he controls America is immaterial to me; he doesn’t. That AIPAC is good at what it does is unquestionable. So what? So’s the NRA? You gonna throw them out of the country, too? So’s the AMA; are they traitors, too? Hey, the unions used to have tons of clout; are they traitors because their interests clash with other interests? Ultiimately, it’s the voters who have the power and who vote politicians into office. A lot of (American) special interests spend a lot of money to pressure politicians to do what they want. Many of them I disagree with. Many of them, like the NRA, pursuing goals I find offensive and damaging to the American public. They aren’t traitors. Neither are the Cubans. I agree, America would be far better off, and Cuban communism would probably collapse, if we opened up full relations with them. The current policy is counterproductive and probably harmful to Cubans. But Cuban Americans are just making their voices heard and using the vote to sway policy. It’s a messy business, but it is the American way. It’s not traiterous, and it’s silly and stupid and unproductive to call it that.

    Reply

  23. Pissed Off American says:

    “israel doesn’t want lebanese territory! if she did she could have had it years ago.”
    Than I guess she is just razing the Lebanese infrastructure for general principals, eh, seeing as how you cannot explain to us how it is aiding in the disbanding of Hizbolla, or helping to secure the release of the Israeli soldiers. Or perhaps the idea is to prohibit any Arab countries from becoming viable working democracies, you think? Can’t have those uppity sand niggers achieving any sort of success or autonomy, now, can we?

    Reply

  24. Carroll says:

    And BWT Robert Hume is right…
    At the heart of everything is the Isr/Pal occupation.
    Isr has always known what they have to do to get peace but they refuse to give it up.
    And a minority of jews, evangelicals and others living in the US have used political pressure to prevent Isr from having to do that….to the deteriment of the US and 90% of the other American citizens.

    Reply

  25. Carroll says:

    Well MP…..it seems you are unable to argue the main point…
    “If you disagree with Carroll or KOJ, or POA, for that matter, you’re not a real American; you’re a traitor; ”
    And the main point is:
    Are dual loyalties acceptable when it causes people who hold them to injure one of their countries for the advancement of another?
    Answer the question.

    Reply

  26. Robert Hume says:

    We have often heard that the “root cause” of the present conflict is Hezbollah’s rain of rockets into Israel.
    But the root cause is actually the settlements. Had Israel been willing to give that land back to the Palestinians, with appropriate security guarantees involving NATO, etc. then we would not be in this mess today.
    But the religious beliefs of some Israelis and some American Jews and Christians, via corresponding contributions to US politicians, have made such compromises very difficult and hence we find ourselves today.
    Bush should insist as first priority solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Reply

  27. David says:

    POA:
    to quote you, “what a load of horsehit!”
    israel doesn’t want lebanese territory! if she did she could have had it years ago.
    at most, she might require a buffer zone in southern lebanon to prevent hizbollah from firing rockets into her territory.

    Reply

  28. Pissed Off American says:

    “But is Israel after Hezbollah, or is Israel after the real estate that comprises southern Lebanon?”
    That question can be answered quite easily, by posing yet another question…….
    How does the destruction of Labanese bridges, powerplants, and water facilities aid in reining in, disarming, or disbanding Hizbollah, OR procurring the release of the soldiers?
    By the same token, one begs to question how razing the Palestinian farmlands is helping to procure the release of THAT Israeli soldier.
    All one need do is remove the history lessons, the tavelogues, and the accusations of bigotry to arrive at the truth. A simple, uncomplicated, and HONEST reflection of the ACTUAL ACTIONS of Israel is all that is required to arrive at the TRUE MOTIVES that are driving Israeli policy.

    Reply

  29. Punchy says:

    “If Israel were to succeed in driving Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon, Israel would then want a buffer for southern Lebanon, where Israeli settlements would quickly spring up, and after that buffer, another, just as Israel has gobbled up Palestine.”
    THIS is what’s never made sense to me. A “southern buffer zone”? Doesn’t that mean–aside from the incredible hostility and fury that stealing land would cause–that Hezbollah (or others) would merely line up as far south as they could and lob rockets into the settlements…effectively killing Israelis?
    In other words…”southern buffer” is relative. SEttlements would be sitting ducks for whatever group parked its ass on the border and starting firing rockets south. Then, Israel would have to go even farther north…fight, conquer…lather, rinse, repeat? Or am I mistaken?

    Reply

  30. Easy E says:

    July 24, 2006
    US COMPLICIT IN DESTRUCTION OF LEBANON
    by Paul Craig Roberts
    There never was any doubt of the Bush regime’s complicity in Israel’s naked aggression against the Lebanese civilian population. Bush has protected Israel from world condemnation. Bush has blocked those who attempted to bring a stop to Israel’s bombing of residential neighborhoods and civilian infrastructure, and now Bush rushes more bombs for Israel to drop on Lebanon.
    On July 22, the New York Times revealed the full extent of the Bush regime’s participation in the heinous war crimes being inflicted on the Lebanese people:
    “The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign. … The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said.”
    Obviously, Bush and his government do not think Israel has yet murdered enough Lebanese. Bush denounces Syria and Iran for allegedly arming Hezbollah, while he rushes more deadly weapons to Israel.
    The entire world is appalled at the Bush regime’s support for Israel’s policy of expanding its borders through naked aggression.
    Every Arab and Muslim now knows that the U.S. is Israel’s enabler. Arab hopes are dead that the U.S. will pressure Israel to behave more humanely toward people not armed with American fighter planes, tanks, and high explosives.
    America’s complicity in Israel’s war crimes is more than America’s UK lapdog can stand. According to the French news service, AFP, “The United States is starting to look isolated in its refusal to rein in Israel’s attacks on Lebanon with key ally Britain criticizing the wholesale killing of Lebanese civilians and widespread destruction.”
    AFP reports that Britain’s deputy foreign minister Kim Howells “questioned Israel’s military tactics and slammed Israel’s killing of ‘so many children and so many people. If Israel is chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don’t go for the entire Lebanese nation.'”
    But is Israel after Hezbollah, or is Israel after the real estate that comprises southern Lebanon?
    Right-wing Israelis say Israel needs southern Lebanon as a buffer against Hezbollah. If Israel were to succeed in driving Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon, Israel would then want a buffer for southern Lebanon, where Israeli settlements would quickly spring up, and after that buffer, another, just as Israel has gobbled up Palestine.
    The American people need to understand what everyone else in the world understands: The Bush regime is empowering the Israeli state to push out its borders by stealing land from other people.
    This Israeli policy is the source of the Middle East conflict.
    It is ignorant and immoral to blame the conflict on Hamas and Hezbollah. These organizations were created by Israeli aggression. Lacking American jet fighters, tanks, ordinance, and resupply, these organizations resort to terror, which is the only weapon that they have. Otherwise, the world would pay no attention as Arabs are ground under by Israeli expansion.
    The fault is America’s more than Israel’s. The American government and the brainwashed American public are the source of the conflict. If America did not enable Israeli aggression, Israel would have to behave responsibly and endeavor to coexist with its neighbors.
    Israel is an artificial state created in Arab lands by European colonial powers after World War II. Instead of working to win acceptance and overcoming Arab hostility to Europe shipping off “the Jewish problem” to the Middle East, Israel has antagonized its Middle East neighbors. Israel can play the bully-boy role because the U.S. acts as Israel’s big brother. With its policy of fang and claw, Israel endangers its own right to exist.
    Many distinguished Israelis came to this conclusion long before I did. I am only repeating what can be read in more eloquent writings of distinguished Israelis.
    Israel’s greatest friends are its own peace movement and those few in America who dare to criticize Israel’s self-destructive policies. It is not anti-Semitic to hold Israel to the same standards as other civilized countries or to report facts instead of Israeli propaganda.
    Israel’s greatest enemies are the American neoconservatives, who hold the power in the Bush regime. What we are witnessing in the Middle East is the unfolding of the neocon plan to destroy all vestiges of Arab/Muslim independence and to remove all opposition to Israel’s agenda. Can 5 million Israelis, even when backed by the United States, forever suppress hundreds of millions of humiliated Muslims stewing in their humiliation?
    This is a recipe for perpetual conflict and the eventual destruction of Israel.
    Neocons believe that deception of the American public is a legitimate way for them to achieve their plan. Bush’s so-called “war on terror” is the cloak for neocon deception.
    Bush’s war is not on terror. Bush’s war is on Muslim states not ruled by American puppets.
    —Paul Craig Roberts

    Reply

  31. Punchy says:

    Matthew writes:
    “Isn’t the key point here Rice’s comment that Hezbollah has disqualified itself from serving in the Lebanese government. Isn’t the arrogance of that statement–and its lack of reality–why we have such problems in the ME?”
    That IS the key point. How our SoS can run around and tell other countries exactly what kind of gov’t they MUST have is arrogance and hubris that is off-the-charts. If Americans only knew exactly how hated we are over the pond precisely because of these pronouncements and demands…

    Reply

  32. Pissed Off American says:

    BTW, MP, be careful when you are arguing a couple of different threads at the same time. You might get ahead of yourself and forget which screen name to use for which thread.

    Reply

  33. Pissed Off American says:

    So, it is your contention that we allow and condone the citizenship of people that activelly support an entity that is committing acts of espionage and acts of war against us. By that reasoning, why are we pursuing Americans that belong to Al Qaeda? According to you, they have every right to citizenship, and are simply Americans that disagree with the mainstream.
    If the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers is an “act of war” against Israel, than why isn’t the kidnapping of the Ohio proffessor being pursued as an act of war against US??? WHY is he detained??? What right does Israel have to detain an American citizen without charges being filed or legal representation being allowed?
    And why is it you IGNORE the citation of the incidences of espionage that Israel has conducted against the United States?? Is it because you realize that to debate such issues you must push them further into the light?

    Reply

  34. Easy E says:

    THE CORPORATE MEDIA’S MIDDLE EAST RULES OF ENGAGEMENT:
    Rule 1: See the Middle East through Israeli eyes.
    Rule 2: Treat American and Israeli governmental statements as hard news.
    Rule 3: Ignore the historical context.
    Rule 4: Avoid the fundamental legal and moral issues posed by the Israeli occupation.
    Rule 5: Suppress or minimize news unfavorable to the Israelis.
    Rule 6: Muddy the waters when necessary.
    Rule 7: Credit all Israeli claims, even if wholly unfounded.
    Rule 8: Doubt all Palestinian assertions, no matter how self-evident.
    Rule 9: Condemn only Palestinian violence.
    Rule 10: Disparage the international consensus supporting Palestinian rights.

    Reply

  35. MP says:

    Don’t worry. You’ll get the hang of it after a while.

    Reply

  36. Pissed Off American says:

    “However, it is unpatriotic–not to mention, facistic–to expel citizens who disagree with you.”
    Well, it could be worse, by God. I could be advocating flying them somewhere to be stacked naked five high while some leering bitch sodomizes them with light sticks, under the careful tutelage of Dick Cheney and Dov Zakhiem.

    Reply

  37. MP says:

    “It is not anti-semitic to expect Americans to hold their allegiances to our own interests.”
    Nor is it unpatriotic to disagree about what those interests are. However, it is unpatriotic–not to mention, facistic–to expel citizens who disagree with you. You and the two Joes–McCarthy and Stalin–would feel right at home with each other.

    Reply

  38. Pissed Off American says:

    Different screen name, same horseshit. It is not anti-semitic to expect Americans to hold their allegiances to our own interests. Nor is it anti-semitic to request that those who are unable to fulfill that basic act of patriotism leave and migrate to the nation they claim allegiance to. PARTICULARLY when that nation’s interests do not parallel our own. Particularly when that nation is engaged in esopionage against us, has a terrible history of human rights abuses, considers itself above international law, whose funding robs us of our domestic needs, and is actively engaged in a program of bribery directed towards our representatives.
    Yep, if you support such an entity, it is my feeling that you ought to get the fuck out of Dodge. And if you don’t do so willingly, we should buy you a one way ticket and frog march your ass right onto the barge. And if you find that “anti-semitic”, tough shit.

    Reply

  39. MP says:

    KOJ says, “David: Looks like Carrol is a real American and belongs here, and it is better both for you and us if you, David, go to Israel…”
    Carroll agrees and adds: “I am sure you see the idioticy of having people living here who are most devoted to another country insisting that we who aren’t devoted to their foreign homeland and have no country but America, support their other country when it is hurting our one and only country.”
    So now, people who support Israel are just “people living here.” You know, foreigners. Folks we’d best ship out. Folks who aren’t real Americans because they don’t agree with us. Never mind the fact that these folks were born and raised in America. Some of their families have been here for over a century. It doesn’t matter that their fathers fought in WWII and Korea. It doesn’t matter that their grandfathers fought in WWI. It doesn’t matter that they marched for civil rights and against the Viet Nam war. It doesn’t matter that they rode the buses into the deep South to make sure that the former slaves of real Americans (perhaps like Carroll and KOJ) had the right to vote in places like Alabama and Mississippi and North Carolina where the real Americans roam. No, it doesn’t matter all. If you disagree with Carroll or KOJ, or POA, for that matter, you’re not a real American; you’re a traitor; and you ought to swim back to your real country. And here you see folks how the so-called Left turns into xenophobic facism in the twinkling of an eye. Pretty soon (I suspect) we’ll be reading posts about how David Duke got some issues wrong (who doesn’t?), but sure was right about the essential points.

    Reply

  40. Pissed Off American says:

    you should really go to israel, carol.
    ever been?
    you might learn something.
    Posted by david
    Uh oh, I was wondering where Brian dissappeared to. But, regardless, here we go again. Some clown is telling us that only by traveling to a foreign country can we determine whats best for our OWN country. We might “learn something”. Bullshit. As long as one single kid here is without health insurance, as long as one single kid is denied an education due to insuffucient funding, as long as one single citizen of New Orleans is still displaced, we need to STOP SENDING OBSCENE BILLIONS TO ISRAEL so they can kill Muslims. And I don’t need to go there to realize that.

    Reply

  41. Matthew says:

    Weldon: And isn’t that the point? Israel is a nation state whose actions are either objectively right or wrong. I think they have the right to be judged by the same standards that apply to every other nation state. The Bush Administration’s diplomacy and foreign policy has been a disaster precisely because they don’t believe in law, i.e., the application of generally accepted norms to nation states. Amazing coincidence how these international crises are multiplying as we have ripped down international norms….

    Reply

  42. Carroll says:

    Well Weldon…I don’t think that is what KOJ is saying but if he is that’s O.K. too.
    You seem like an intelligent fellow…I am sure you see the idioticy of having people living here who are most devoted to another country insisting that we who aren’t devoted to their foreign homeland and have no country but America, support their other country when it is hurting our one and only country.
    I think if your neighbor was robbing “your” family to support “his” family you would most likely be inclined to send him to jail.

    Reply

  43. Carroll says:

    Thank you KOJ…
    As for visiting Israel David, no thanks…I’ve been around several countries near it and never had the urge to go into Israel but I ran into groups of them here and there abroad. Just as some Americans consider the French to be a little haughty…I personally don’t care for the Israelis in large numbers, they seem a little pushy and boorish to me. Actually my experience with Arabs has been more pleasant, the ones I met were very dignified and hospitable people.
    I guess it’s a matter of personal taste.

    Reply

  44. weldon berger says:

    KOJ: Spare us the “real American” crap; it’s just the obverse of “Love It Or Leave It” and it’s no more sensible than that was. I’m declaring it a corollary to Godwin’s Law that the first person to trot it out loses.
    formerDoDlogmgr: I’m not the one who brought up the expedited munitions shipments, but since the Israelis don’t seem all that concerned about who they’re blowing up, I’d guess the immediate lack of precision guided bombs won’t crimp their plans all that much.
    David: I have relatives in Tel Aviv and Ashdod, something which renders me no less inclined to condemn Israeli war crimes than ones committed by anyone else.

    Reply

  45. KOJ says:

    David: Looks like Carrol is a real American and belongs here, and it is better both for you and us if you, David, go to Israel…

    Reply

  46. david says:

    you should really go to israel, carol.
    ever been?
    you might learn something.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    This so typical…and so typical of Israelis overestimating their childlike propagenda. US polls show 70% or better of Americans oppose them, 45% of us want all things Israeli out of the US, and they think psychological games are going to work?…only on the already converted.
    Interview with a Israeli former Mossad fellow and Yossi Melman:
    Yossi Melman: What next?
    (Melman): But we have lost the psychological battle in any event, haven’t we?
    Mossad guy: “Not necessarily. It depends on whether we will be able to implement effective psychological warfare that will generate ‘spontaneous’ internal opposition to the ruling leadership in Hezbollah and lead to their physical liquidation or their exile to Iran.”
    Melmen How can that be accomplished?
    Mossad guy: “We must conduct a crafty, sophisticated campaign. With foxes we shall play the fox. Our ability to decide this campaign, and perhaps future campaigns, too, depends in part on guile, which is the art of hiding our flaws and of revealing and cultivating the weakness of our enemy. The creation of disinformation. The creation of a real or imaginary feeling in an organization that took pride in compartmentalization and in cohesion, that in fact, it is as full of holes as a sieve. To make even Nasrallah watch his guards suspiciously. To create a feeling of physical insecurity and loneliness for the hierarchy of the organization and their families, because loneliness is the mother of all fears. To foment internal disputes and an atmosphere of betrayal, because there is no knife as sharp and poisoned as betrayal.”
    Huuumm..you are so right Mossad…there is no knife as sharp as betrayal.
    And when Americans discover, as they will after a while, that their country has been used and betrayed by Israel and the zionist….well, then Israel will be dead meat.

    Reply

  48. km4 says:

    correction…We don’t need your brand of bombastic diplomacy

    Reply

  49. km4 says:

    Last Updated: Monday, 24 July 2006, 00:43 GMT 01:43 UK
    Israel ‘would accept’ peace force
    Israel has said it is prepared to accept a European peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon providing it is robust and has a strong mandate.
    Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made the announcement after his government met envoys from Germany, France and the UK.
    US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrives on Monday for talks with Israeli and Palestinian leaders.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5208838.stm
    Ahhh Condi stay home with your ‘husband’ the idiot savant. We did need your brand of bombastic diplomacy and the Neocons creeps with vision of imperialism can suck eggs !
    Yes, the assclown Bushco Neocons are going down hard !!!

    Reply

  50. Frank says:

    The Bush administration has given new meaning to the word diplomacy. It means talking to your your friends and allies only, with your allies then talking to your “axis of evils”..Outsourcing everything has gotten to be an art form with this administration. Any ideas how we could outsource this buffoon of a president?

    Reply

  51. Zathras says:

    I have no objection in principle to diplomatic action merely to stall for time. Every administration should know how to look as if it is doing something without actually doing something, if the appearance of doing nothing risks damaging our image while immediate, substantive action may forestall developments in our interest.
    In practice, though, this administration is not very good at stalling for time. It has been all but silent on Israel’s choice of targets — an imprudent choice since it quickly became obvious that some of the places Israel attacked in Lebanon had little connection to Hezbollah — and otherwise has given the impression that its policy is not independent at all from Israel’s.
    Why, for example, could not the administration simply have called for Hasan Nasrallah to apologize for having broken the peace? This would not have echoed Israeli government statements (Israel would consider an apology insufficient), it would not have compromised Israel’s air campaign (because Nasrallah would never have apologized) and it would have focused attention on something most governments already believe, that it was Hezbollah that started all this trouble in the first place.
    This would not have been a solution to the Lebanon war, only a tactic. And it’s just my opinion that it might have had a better effect than an inadvertant Presidential comment blurted out over an open mike. Of course it was never considered in the White House, or by the Bush family’s loyal retainer at the State Department. In point of fact the President is acting with respect to Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah just as he did with respect to the war plans for Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003. In each case the whole matter of planning and implementing the campaigns was treated as someone else’s responsibility, a subject about which the President of the United States had not only no substantive input but scarcely any comment.
    Whether deference of this kind to Sec Rumsfeld and Gen. Franks was wise in the first two campaigns may be debated. But surely extending the same unqualified support to a foreign government in a war touching on American interests suggests a degree of fecklessness undesirable in the Chief Executive.

    Reply

  52. elementary teacher says:

    UNICEF now estimates that 50% of the refugees are children.
    http://www.relieflebanon.org/faq.html

    Reply

  53. Hoplite says:

    Steve: [snip] Zbigniew Brzezinski spoke about America’s stakes in the worsening Middle East crisis.
    If I may, perhaps it is best to write more comprehensively than the above lopsided statement.
    As America’s overall placement is worsening in the Middle East crisis Iran’s overall placement is becoming far better.
    Btw: Bush has directly but *inadvertently* empowered the Shia fundamentalists in direct response to the fundamentalist Sunni attacks on 9/11.
    WTF?
    Did Dr Brzezinski address the empowering of the Shiites by Bush?

    Reply

  54. Pissed Off American says:

    “I am giving what I would normally give to political campaigns to groups like this instead…I encourage others to do the same…we americans don’t get any representation for the money we donate to politicans anyway so put it where it will at least do some good.”
    As far as displaced Lebonese people go, I am hearing figures between 500,000 and one million. Considering the bias being shown by the mass media, I am assuming the numbers are probably higher.
    Gee, I wonder how many of these displaced lebanese had anything to do with the alleged “kidnapping” of the Israeli soldiers???
    And, seeing the carnage on newsreels, I find the fatality figures unbelievable. Far more Lebanese people are dying than the media is reporting. The figures being cited simply do not compute considering the images of devastation we are being shown.

    Reply

  55. Matthew says:

    Isn’t the key point here Rice’s comment that Hezbollah has disqualified itself from serving in the Lebanese government. Isn’t the arrogance of that statement–and its lack of reality–why we have such problems in the ME?
    There’s a name for a country who’s political leaders have to be approved by another nation: a satellite.

    Reply

  56. Carroll says:

    Also BTW….Juan Cole recommends this group if you feel inclined to help:
    The American University of Beirut is once again at the forefront of efforts to care for those who are suffering in Lebanon. We will do everything we can to take care of those who need our help. We have done it before. Our commitment to do so is just as strong today.
    We are seeking your support for the newly created AUB Medical Emergency Fund so that we can continue relief efforts in the following two areas: medical supplies and volunteer relief.
    You can make a secure online donation, https://give.aub.edu.lb.
    You can issue a check payable to:
    American University of Beirut / Medical Emergency Fund
    American University of Beirut
    3 Dag Hammarskjold Plaza,
    8th Floor,
    New York, NY 10017-2303
    USA
    For other payment methods, please contact
    jeffrey@aub.edu or + 212-583-7600 (New York Office)
    bimad@aub.edu.lb or + 961-3-996543 (Beirut Office)
    I am giving what I would normally give to political campaigns to groups like this instead…I encourage others to do the same…we americans don’t get any representation for the money we donate to politicans anyway so put it where it will at least do some good.

    Reply

  57. Carroll says:

    BTW..
    the embassy has announced that all americans who want out have 24 hours to get out…there will be no more evacuations after that…in other words get out or hunker down, there is more to come.

    Reply

  58. Carroll says:

    Posted by formerDoDlogmgr at July 23, 2006 02:58 PM
    I hope there is something to those statements and manuverings…but going by past history this may be just retrenching…you can’t look at Lebanon and think there is a single sane person behind Israeli policy. You also can’t look at what they have done in Lebanon and think there isn’t more to the madness than just exterminating Hezbollah.
    And we know there are no sane people in our own adm. so I am not holding my breath.

    Reply

  59. formerDoDlogmgr says:

    weldon berger: it’s not as simple as one might think to expedite a contract and get delivery in a timely manner. Based on my experience in aviation logistics and material management, I don’t believe Israel can get more PGMs in a week’s time or less unless the contractor somehow has inventory sitting on the shelf. Knowing how the defense contractors are inventory-phobic, I doubt they have PGMs sitting around waiting to be shipped. I don’t know how much Israeli orders are competing with US requirements, but if they are, I know I, as a matl mgr, would be very reluctant to give up my place in line because the first priority has to be our own military. I remain convinced Israel is running into supply and logistics problems that will force a diplomatic solution perhaps before the US and Israel want.

    Reply

  60. Pissed Off American says:

    Steve, my ongoing question: is there any hard evidence supporting what seems to be your belief that Rice is acting as a brake on the administration’s effort to drive this country over a foreign policy cliff?
    Posted by weldon berger
    Its called “optimistic fantasizing”. It is one of Steve’s specialties.

    Reply

  61. weldon berger says:

    Let me amend my question: “Is there any hard evidence supporting what seems to be your belief that Rice is acting as a parachute to soften our landing at the bottom of the foreign policy cliff over which the administration has driven this country?”

    Reply

  62. weldon berger says:

    From formerDoDlogmgr: “Three encouraging developments reported via Yahoo news today, first Israel reversing course and saying it will accept an international force in south Lebanon, second Israel saying Hezbollah can exist and be recognized as a political party, but must demilitarize, and third a story about a “flurry of diplomatic efforts”.
    On the other hand, from Ha’aretz we have “On the eve of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s visit to Jerusalem, senior officials believe Israel has received American approval to continue operations against Hezbollah at least until next Sunday.
    Rice will first explore ways with Israel’s leadership to end the crisis and begin to shape a new order in Lebanon. She will return next Sunday to try to implement a cease-fire.”
    Maybe the part about “shaping a new order” is just the paper editorializing, but didn’t Lebanon only recently do that? And doesn’t the belief of Israeli officials that they’ve at least another week of blind support from the US undercut the contention that any other diplomatic efforts are more than window dressing? And on a side note, all three of the European countries at present talking with Israel have indicated they won’t contribute to any larger international force.
    If the paper’s assessment is accurate, it would seem to indicate that the US is aware of and content with what appears to have been among the Israeli government’s primary goals, the undoing of the Cedar Revolution.
    Steve, my ongoing question: is there any hard evidence supporting what seems to be your belief that Rice is acting as a brake on the administration’s effort to drive this country over a foreign policy cliff?

    Reply

  63. Pissed Off American says:

    Oops, sorry, I meant Resolution # 921
    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/
    Res. 921, to condemn the recent attacks against the State of Israel, holding terrorists and their state-sponsors accountable for such attacks, supporting Israel’s right to defend itself, by a (\2/3\) yea-and-nay vote of 410 yeas to 8 nays with 4 voting “present”, Roll No. 391.

    Reply

  64. Pissed Off American says:

    Ok. So, their own polls indicate that 78% of the polled Americans DO NOT SUPPORT Resolution 419-8. So what do the fuckers do???? They pass the resolution. Now, does THAT seem like the action of a “representative government” to you??? It begs the question….since these traitorous whores do not support or represent the will of the people, than exactly whose will DO they represent???
    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/
    ISRAEL SUPPORT RESOLUTION PASSES 410-8: Should the House have voted to support Israel in the latest conflict and call for Syria and Iran to be held accountable?
    – 22% say Support Pro-Israel Resolution
    – 78% say Oppose Pro-Israel Resolution

    Reply

  65. Pissed Off American says:

    Heres the White House’s answer to peace….
    Jul. 22, 2006
    US rushing ‘smart bombs’ to Israel
    By NATHAN GUTTMAN
    WASHINGTON
    The US is rushing a delivery of “smart bombs” to Israel after Israel indicated it needed the bombs for its military campaign against the Hizbullah.
    The New York Times reported Saturday that the decision to rush the shipment was reached after little debate within the administration.
    The “smart bombs” – bombs which are equipped with precision guidance devises, are part of an arms deal reached months ago between Israel and the US, but the fighting in Lebanon led Israel to ask for an expedited delivery of the bombs, before the agreed scheduled of supply.
    continues at….
    http://tinyurl.com/j3ag5
    Gee, I wonder if we can expedite a container load of Magic Markers as well……
    http://tinyurl.com/ztxpd

    Reply

  66. Pissed Off American says:

    “Rice also might face difficulties talking to U.S. allies in the region. Three major Arab countries — Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia — are important participants in the new effort to make peace.”
    What new effort to make peace??? I see no such effort being lodged by ANYONE with the power to make a difference. This whole clusterfuck isn’t about making peace, it is about killing Muslims. We don’t help bring about peace by rushing an order of smart bombs off to Israel, or standing quietly by while the bloody bastards raze Lebanon.There is no possible way to believe that Bush’s criminal endeavor in Iraq, or Israel’s campaign of genocide in Palestine and Lebanon actually brings the Middle East closer to a situation of peaceful coexistence of between nartions there. And it takes a total idiot to fail to see the new breed of radical Islamic terrorists that are created by the actions of both Bush and Israel. Peace IS NOT the goal here. Escalation is. More dead Muslims is the goal…..LOTS MORE.

    Reply

  67. formerDoDlogmgr says:

    Three encouraging developments reported via Yahoo news today, first Israel reversing course and saying it will accept an international force in south Lebanon, second Israel saying Hezbollah can exist and be recognized as a political party, but must demilitarize, and third a story about a “flurry of diplomatic efforts”.
    All this leads me to believe Israel now knows what
    a disaster this action against Lebanon has been not only can’t it acheive its stated military objective to wipe out Hezbollah, but the PR disaster it has been for the state of Israel itself. Add to that the two stories about Israel requesting urgent jet fuel resupply and expedited shipments of PGMs and one wonders if Israel is realizing its US military pipeline is not capable of supplying it and our own wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I suspect Israel is looking hard for a way out.

    Reply

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