Why Did They Shoot So Many in the Head?

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glock_73215.jpgI don’t understand the Israeli government defense of the ‘shoot to kill’ behavior of commandos that stormed the Turkish flotilla going toward Gaza.
The protesters used primitive weapons — bats, slingshots, etc. Even if it is true that the activists brutally attacked the ship-raiding commandos, shooting to stop people, to deter them, or to disable them, is not shooting to kill.
This use of disproportionate force is something we have seen in Israel’s military profile over and over again — but particularly under the tenure of Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
This in from Reuters:

Autopsy results showed the men were hit mostly with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range, the Guardian said, quoting Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine which carried out the autopsies on Friday.
Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships planning to break the Israeli sea blockade of Gaza on Monday. The deaths, which all took place on one ship, the Mavi Marmara, drew widespread condemnation.
Israel said the marines who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara fired in self-defense after activists attacked them with clubs and knives as well as two pistols snatched from the commandos.
The autopsy results showed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the Guardian said.
A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, was shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said.
Two other men were shot four times. Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying.
In addition to those killed, 48 others suffered gunshot wounds and six activists were still missing, he added.
Israel said the multiple gunshot wounds did not mean the shots were fired other than in self defense.

Even those who support the Israel government’s right to board the ships and enforce the Gaza blockade have to ask themselves what the far more powerful and better armed IDF soldiers were thinking unloading so many bullets into the skulls of primitively armed activists.
This is really outrageous – and Vice President Joe Biden’s comments that Israel conduct an investigation into this incident was out of line. Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has backed off its original hyperbolic claims that the flotilla was connected to al Qaeda affiliates, and there are significant discrepancies in what IDF soldiers are reporting to the media and what various Israeli government embassies and consulates are publicly stating.
Truth is pretty slippery in this case — and an outside group needs to look into what really happened and why.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

88 comments on “Why Did They Shoot So Many in the Head?

  1. Mike says:

    Don Bacon wrote:
    “Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Or is your
    misbehavior intentional?
    *shot four times in the temple
    *shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the
    face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back
    *Two other men were shot four times
    *Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or
    in the back”
    Really? Try re-reading my post. Do you understand typical use
    of force scenarios in a mob or riot? You are not going to get
    single shots to the chest of the exact person attacking you in a
    mob. Use common sense. These are the injuries you’d expect
    with someone trying to defend themselves from a mob, close
    quarter shots, multiple shots, shots to people who were near the
    mob, turned away from the mob. In essence, the person
    attacked can’t exactly pause, aim, and shoot like a sniper while
    multiple attackers are upon him.
    To expect otherwise shows you know nothing about use of force
    in real life scenarios, so please save your lectures.

    Reply

  2. Paul Norheim says:

    “I have no use for reactionary fundamentalist sectarianism of any
    kind, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or whatever. I find the Flying
    Spaghetti Monster much more appealing than the hate-filled,
    violence-inspiring myths these people adulate.”
    Ditto.

    Reply

  3. David says:

    “David why are you such an islamist supporter?” Yeah, right, Jeff. Which orifice did you pull that comment out of? Apparently you have been paying no attention to what I have been saying. Get a clue. I have no use for reactionary fundamentalist sectarianism of any kind, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or whatever. I find the Flying Spaghetti Monster much more appealing than the hate-filled, violence-inspiring myths these people adulate. I appreciate the progressive, enlightened members of the various sects to which the majority of the world’s population professes adherence. Have no idea what your religious preference is. Does it support Israeli colonization of the Occupied Territories or brutalization of the innocent inhabitants of Gaza?

    Reply

  4. non-hater says:

    “The left loves israeli blood. The left loves their hezbollah, hamas, iranian facists.”
    You need another round of hasbara training.

    Reply

  5. Don Bacon says:

    The US and Turkey are mutual members of a defense pact — NATO. An attack on one is an attack on the other. Turkey has been attacked — so what now, US? Is honoring treaty obligations an alternative to be considered? The US wanted Turkish help in Afghanistan, is it a one-way street?
    The US has no such treaty with Israel. In fact, no treaty whatsoever. No request for help in Afghanistan. Only pleadings from Israel for more aid in killing more Palestinians. More financial aid, now $3bn annually for the poor and needy killers of women, children and an American high school student.

    Reply

  6. kotzabasis says:

    David
    Your defence reaction speaks volumes of the superficiality of your thinking.
    DonS
    Your stooping reply to Drew shows clearly how ludicrously distracted you are from the logic of your own argument. While the major premise of your argument, as sharp eyed Nadine notes, was the

    Reply

  7. Don Bacon says:

    “why Israel was unprepared to meet contingencies” — because they got away with killing 1,400 men, women & children in Gaza — so what’s a few more?
    But now the world has caught up with their mindless brutality. They messed with the Turks, for one thing. They’re not docile Pals — the Turks. Surprise! The Turks aren’t taking that Zionist shit — doesn’t mean anything to them. A new factor in the equation. Who knew the Turks would object to a little Zionist killing? The Pals take it. But now the Zionists have pissed off the Turks. Wrong move. Ask the Koreans.
    In Korea, early 50’s: The Turkish Brigade has been the subject of the world’s praise, by showing a very superior combat capability which provided our state with honor through the successes it won one after another during the three year period of blood and fire starting from the hardest and most critical moment it entered the battlefield until the signing of the “Ceasefire” agreement.///
    Good luck, IDF. You’ll need it, with the Turks in the battle. Yeah, let the Turks have them.

    Reply

  8. Carroll says:

    It is so funny to me how tough the little zionist on here pretend to be.
    The IDF has never fought a real army, say like the US Marines..and they even got their ass handed to them Hezbollah. Hamas even, unfunded and out gunned and supported has even managed to prevent Israel from swallowing all of Palestine.
    It’s like Col Pat Lang described, the Israeli forces aren’t trained and disciplined solders, they are more like teenager street gangs with guns.
    Very tough with killing women and children and unarmed peace activists..but basically what are they?….a bunch of monkeys screeching and beating their chest …pretending to be silverbacks.
    Any army or group, perfectly matched or even less perfectly matched, with weapon power would have the Israelis whinning, screaming holocaust and running to Poppa in 24 hours.
    Let the Turks have them.

    Reply

  9. Carroll says:

    It is so funny to me how tough the little zionist on here pretend to be.
    The IDF has never fought a real army, say like the US Marines..and they even got their ass handed to them Hezbollah. Hamas even, unfunded and out gunned and supported has even managed to prevent Israel from swallowing all of Palestine.
    It’s like Col Pat Lang described, the Israeli forces aren’t trained and disciplined solders, they are more like teenager street gangs with guns.
    Very tough with killing women and children and unarmed peace activists..but basically what are they?….a bunch of monkeys screeching and beating their chest …pretending to be silverbacks.
    Any army or group, perfectly matched or even less perfectly matched, with weapon power would have the Israelis whinning, screaming holocaust and running to Popa in 24 hours.

    Reply

  10. nadine says:

    “Drew, appreciate your military expertise, but don’t you think its a trees/forest question. Really, focusing the mode of shooting and killing exclusively, is a distraction to the larger question of why Israel was unprepared to meet contingencies. I don’t believe they could not have prepared. And I certainly believe there was more than an element of stupidity. ” (DonS)
    Oh, suddenly it’s a “distraction”? And here I thought it was some kind of a major, major point proving Israel’s guilt beyond a doubt.
    Score: drew 1, DonS 0
    Obviously the Israelis were prepared to deal with “peace activists”, not violent armed Islamists trying to kill them. (It was more than the three down, btw. One soldier was thrown 30 feet down to the lower deck and has severe brain damage, several others have broken bones).
    But how do we know that all this “non violent FreeGaza peace activists” are full of shit? Because not one has objected to the use of violence by their comrades on the Mavi Marmora.

    Reply

  11. ... says:

    dons, zionists are loath to admit when their murdering is not the best pr campaign, but just the opposite…. they will try to twist it, but most intelligent folks aren’t buying it…

    Reply

  12. DonS says:

    Drew, appreciate your military expertise, but don’t you think its a trees/forest question. Really, focusing the mode of shooting and killing exclusively, is a distraction to the larger question of why Israel was unprepared to meet contingencies. I don’t believe they could not have prepared. And I certainly believe there was more than an element of stupidity.
    But the overall operation, and particularly the outcome puts the laser squarely on Israel in a bad way by just about any metric. No?

    Reply

  13. drew says:

    Cee,
    Thanks for the after action report. Reporters and other
    eyewitnesses who join as participants a political/military
    crusade are the best people to rely upon for military analysis,
    casual autopsies conducted by glance, and the necessary mind-
    reading of their adversaries. This is essential to their
    explanations to the world as to exactly what the fuck is going on
    when people are screaming, diving to the deck, and soiling their
    pants.
    If these cats want to run a blockade a second time I’ll have some
    respect for their opinions. They thought this was spring break,
    evidently.
    –drew

    Reply

  14. Don Bacon says:

    drew,
    Take a deep breath — you’re starting to sound like Jeff, all over the lot, except more narrow with single spacing.

    Reply

  15. David says:

    Was it a prefrontal or what, kotz? That you would conclude that because some of us see the same things Steve Clemons is seeing (as is anyone else with his or her eyes open, unfettered by ideological blinders), we are somehow following Steve is pathetic. You are dealing with people who follow facts and logic, which Steve also happens to do pretty well. Take your snide, superficial dismissal of some very serious thinkers and put it where the sun shineth not.
    And the only nerve you touched was the one that is always triggered when some two-dimensional ideologue offers some derisive dismissal of people genuinely trying to grasp and understand a particular situation. You might want to consider giving that a try, yourself. I am assuming that unlike nadine, you are just a fellow poster generally seeking to provide whatever perspectives you are able to discern, not someone who simply reiterates a party line, however erudite it might be.

    Reply

  16. David says:

    Was it a prefrontal or what, kotz? That you would conclude that because some of us see the same things Steve Clemons is seeing (as is anyone else with his or her eyes open, unfettered by ideological blinders), we are somehow following Steve is pathetic. You are dealing with people who follow facts and logic, which Steve also happens to do pretty well. Take your snide, superficial dismissal of some very serious thinkers and put it where the sun shineth not.
    And the only nerve you touched was the one that is always triggered when some two-dimensional ideologue offers some derisive dismissal of people genuinely trying to grasp and understand a particular situation. You might want to consider giving that a try, yourself. I am assuming that unlike nadine, you are just a fellow poster generally seeking to provide whatever perspectives you are able to discern, not someone who simply reiterates a party line, however erudite it might be.

    Reply

  17. Don Bacon says:

    Same deal in Cast Lead. From the US State Dept 2009 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices:
    “Israeli media covered the occupied territories, except for combat zones where the IDF temporarily restricted access, but closures, curfews, and checkpoints limited the ability of Palestinian and foreign journalists to do their jobs The IDF forbade all journalists from entering Gaza during military operation in December and January.
    “In 2007 IDF soldiers shot al-Aqsa television cameraman Imad Ghanem while he was filming an IDF operation in al-Bureij Camp in Gaza; he subsequently lost both legs. As of December the case was pending. On July 10, the IDF closed the independently owned Afaq TV in the West Bank city of Nablus. According to press reports, the IDF closed the station for one year, accusing it of affiliation with a terrorist entity.”

    Reply

  18. drew says:

    Don, I am sure you are a very smart guy, and I’m relieved that
    the Israelis are not issuing 9mm’s, because as we know, all
    newspaper reporters understand weaponry, close combat, and
    military history, so no reporter would ever get that wrong —
    like Steve putting a Glock 23 on his alarming opinion piece. A
    23, incidentally, is a .40. A .40 will drop a man with a single
    shot to the chest, and he is done.
    Here’s what happened: some clever agitprop types organized a
    blockade penetration, the educated suckers that love to be on
    TV joined, a commando dropped into the middle of Custer’s last
    stand, i.e., he dropped on a rope into the middle of the shit, and
    started shooting the living crap out of the bad guys in order to
    save his comrades from being dismembered. The bad guys
    backed off after enough of them had a magazine of whatever
    pumped into them. (I don’t care if they were shot in the face,
    thorax, back or nuts.) The three guys who were nearly lynched
    by the “peace activists” were saved. Helen Thomas declared
    pogrom. We have a world crisis, and Israel is truly at risk and in
    existential crisis as though it’s 1967. Paul McCartney, high
    school graduate, forgot that the (former) president’s (he of Yale,
    Harvard) wife was a librarian. Blago is singing. Putin is drunk at
    this hour with his 25 year-old gymnast. President Obama, who
    has never managed a 7-11, has this small matter as well as the
    world’s largest ecological disaster since Chernobyl to manage.
    The Chinese? They’re clipping coupons, and funding the largest
    peacetime navy expansion in the history of the universe with our
    interest payments because, as you say, they already control
    Taiwan and don’t need a big navy. More at 10, on the Onion
    Network.
    You know what this is like? This is like people declaring the
    decisive battle of the Viet Nam War — the Tet offensive — a win
    for the north. Whoever is masterminding this blockade-running
    flotilla of grad students is brilliant, and the Israelis had better
    wake up, before Jane Fonda comes out of retirement.

    Reply

  19. Cee says:

    We know why the journalists aren’t being released
    Sans Frontieres reported that 16 foreign journalists, including from the Sydney Morning Herald, the German Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, and several outlets in Muslim countries, were being held in an Israeli detention center after being arrested Monday on the ship.
    * The same reporter said in a later interview that “there is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck” — that the Israelis had first fired from above. More via The Lede:
    It was evident there was definitely fire from the air, because one of the people who was killed was clearly shot from above — he was shot, the bullet targeted him at the top of his head. There was also fire coming from the sea as well. Most of the fire initially from the sea was tear gas canisters, sound grenades, but then it became live fire. After I finished filing that last report and I was going down below deck one of the passengers who was on the side of the deck holding a water hose — trying to hose off, if you will, the advancing Israeli navy — was shot in his arm by soldiers in the boats below.
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/the_gaza_flotilla_raid_what_do_we_know.php?ref=fpa

    Reply

  20. Don Bacon says:

    nadine,
    While the economic ties between Taiwan and China are proceeding apace (that was one of Rummy’s favorite words so I’m using it on you), the full political re-incorporation of Taiwan into China, as I thought I implied with the Tao routine, is a work in progress. Chinese are patient people. A generation or two is nothing to them.
    The vulnerability of the 7th fleet is much more interesting to US naval officers than to me, I assure you. It could put a lot of squids in the water, for one thing. And since Iran has some of these capabilities also, it kind of puts a damper on any US military attack on Iran that might include naval forces in case you’re wondering why that hasn’t happened.
    Finally, devoting one’s efforts to finding and revealing the truth isn’t particularly un-American, is it. You certainly don’t have a patent on patriotism, especially compared to me I assure you. As for truth:
    “Let us settle ourselves, and work and wedge our feet downward through the mud and slush of opinion, and prejudice, and tradition, and delusion, and appearance, that alluvion which covers the globe, through Paris and London, through New York and Boston and Concord, through church and state, through poetry and philosophy and religion, till we come to a hard bottom and rocks in place, which we can call reality, and say, This is, and no mistake.”–Henry David Thoreau, Walden

    Reply

  21. Don Bacon says:

    drew: “. . .if someone was 10 feet from me with a lead pipe in his hands, and I had three buddies down already, I’d probably be thinking “disproportionate force”
    Nico Lehmann: “I say: if you are a US policeman on the floor with an attacker hitting you in your head with a steel pipe, would you not allow another policeman to shoot him, from any angle???”
    Didn’t happen. various news reports:
    Autopsies on bodies of activists killed in Israel’s attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla five days ago indicate that the victims were shot multiple times at close range.
    Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm.
    The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel’s insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.
    Report: Autopsies Suggest Israelis Shot Flotilla Activists Execution-Style at Close Range
    Autopsy results also indicated that the men were hit mostly with nine-millimeter bullets fired at point-blank range.
    Sgt S.: As he landed on the ship

    Reply

  22. nadine says:

    “It sounds like you’re pretty excited about the obliteration of the
    7th Fleet. …
    But what’s confusing for me is that if Taiwan has already been
    re-annexed by China, with full USA support, why didn’t the 7th
    Fleet get the memo and head to Hawaii? ” (drew)
    Since 9/11, which they reacted to with “buts” and “chickens coming home to roost”, the so-called “progressive” left can’t help revealing their deep hatred of America and Israel. That’s what’s making them jump into bed with all the Islamo-fascists they can find. Out of their deep humanitarian yearnings, naturally.
    The mask is coming off.

    Reply

  23. nadine says:

    “If these were police in any US city they’d be disciplined for this non-standard behavior of shooting people in the back (obviously gratuitous unnecessary shots). And most of it was reportedly done by one shooter, who apparently is going to get a medal! The world is watching.” (Don Bacon)
    They weren’t police. They were soldiers, countering the deliberate running of a naval blockade. That’s an act of war. Imagine what a victory it would have been for Hamas if they had killed all the commandoes and made it into Gaza port. The world headlines would have read, “The IDF, revealed as a paper tiger”
    St. Sgt. S well deserves his medal. An American soldier doing the same against a Taliban lynch mob would deserve a medal too, and probably get one.

    Reply

  24. drew says:

    Don, nobody here cares about deploying sidearms, but you are
    mistaken if you think you are trained not to empty the
    magazine, if threatened. I have no idea if those people were
    shot as you described, and I made no comment on that. But it
    makes no difference where they were shot if they had already
    wounded and disabled three Israelis, the remaining Israelis had
    pulled themselves into a ‘last man’ double perimeter against a
    wall, and the mob pressed forward. Running a blockade is a
    military action, and the genius of the Turks and ‘peace activists’
    is in their turning this deliberate provocation and sacrifice of a
    few dead-enders into a global pogrom.
    I’d really like to see the reaction if six ships tried to run a
    blockade staged by Russia or China. Putin would have laughed
    and sunk the ships with a wave of his hand. That is, if they had
    any pilots who could hit a ship with a functional missile. They
    had trouble finding anyone who could bomb the runway
    accurately during the Georgian invasion.
    It sounds like you’re pretty excited about the obliteration of the
    7th Fleet. You left out the Chicoms’ new swarming satellite
    technologies, which are also a problem. I’m pleased that there
    is no conflict nor any military tension (other than that stirred up
    by anachronistic Americans and craven F-16 salesmen). It’s
    very fortunate given our military obsolescence, which you well
    describe..
    But what’s confusing for me is that if Taiwan has already been
    re-annexed by China, with full USA support, why didn’t the 7th
    Fleet get the memo and head to Hawaii?

    Reply

  25. Nico Lehmann says:

    The blue-eyed western communists that jumped into the same boat thought that “my enemy

    Reply

  26. Nico Lehmann says:

    Don Bacon: Bullshit. You wrote: “non-standard behavior of shooting people in the back (obviously gratuitous unnecessary shots)”. I say: if you are a US policeman on the floor with an attacker hitting you in your head with a steel pipe, would you not allow another policeman to shoot him, from any angle???

    Reply

  27. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    What do we call our foreign policy stance on this, the “day late and a dollar short” ploy? Didn’t UN Rapporteur Richard Goldstone suggest that Israel investigate itself at the begining of the Gaza Siege? This is what we call “leadership”?
    Leadership would have supported the Goldstone Report and worked to implement it. Someone should tell Obama/Biden to close the barn door, while they’re at it.

    Reply

  28. Kathleen Grasso Andersen says:

    What do we call our foreign policy stance on this, the “day late and a dollar short” ploy? Didn’t UN Rapporteur Richard Goldstone suggest that Israel investigate itself at the begining of the Gaza Siege? This is what we call “leadership”?
    Leadership would have supported the Goldstone Report and worked to implement it. Someone should tell Obama/Biden to close the barn door, while they’re at it.

    Reply

  29. Don Bacon says:

    drew: “. . .continue to use the 7th Fleet to
    guarantee Taiwan.
    Wrong again. This is not your day.
    Taiwan is accepted by the US to be part of China. Of course the US can’t pass up some profiteering from arms sales to Taiwan, but not to worry, the Chinese with their five thousand years of history have a way of working things out.
    Taoism — the Way — encourages people to be like a stream of water coursing down a hillside. When an obstacle, like a rock, is encountered, just go around it. That’s the Chinese way.
    The new economic pact between Taiwan and China China, known as the economic cooperation framework agreement (ECFA), is expected to boost the island’s $390 billion export-led economy. The ECFA would boost about $100 billion in annual two-way trade by reducing tariffs on 300 items.
    So the 7th fleet is a rusting anachronism, not least because it is completely vulnerable in any conflict to Chinese cruise missiles, quiet submarines firing superfast torpedoes, multiple-warhead ballistic missiles and smart mines.
    The US too, in its global military imperialism, is an economic anachronism compared to the economic expansion of China, who will enjoy a huge copper mine in Afghanistan, thanks to the expensive US military occupation. Talk about getting taken to the cleaners! (pun intended)

    Reply

  30. Don Bacon says:

    drew: “That is standard handgunning doctrine.”
    Dorgan: shot five times, once in the back of the head and once in the back of the torso
    Bilgen: shot four times including in the temple and the back
    Total: Of the nine, five were either shot in the back of the head or in the back.
    Bullshit. If these were police in any US city they’d be disciplined for this non-standard behavior of shooting people in the back (obviously gratuitous unnecessary shots). And most of it was reportedly done by one shooter, who apparently is going to get a medal! The world is watching.

    Reply

  31. drew says:

    Perhaps it would be easier to deal with Hamas if they were a
    ‘nation’ instead of a poor, downtrodden, abused underclass. Of
    course, the Arab world would object, because then they would
    be forced to recognize them and their passports, and the very
    Arab nations that exploit the Palestinians’ victim status for
    domestic political advantage — the people who do not want
    peace, and heretofore have lobbied not to accept land for peace,
    and who live with the shame of sequential military humiliation,
    proving unable to mass and penetrate a sliver of a country of six
    million only 13 miles wide — might have to intervene before the
    rockets are pointed at them. That would be interesting, to see
    Hamas doing the Iranian bidding, and launching rockets at
    Egypt.
    The concern I have with “oh dear … did they do that? … my
    condolences … to be fair it’s probably our fault, and by this I
    mean the last administration’s” diplomacy is that I cannot
    summon up an international constituency who may be bent by it.
    For a guy who’s trying to out-TR TR, he seems to have forgotten
    that the TR foreign policy summary did not end after “Speak
    softly …”
    I think this administration is unwinding 60 years worth of
    strategic relationship with Turkey, unwinding our national
    commitment to Israel and thereby imposing an existential crisis
    on Israel, winking at an explosion of overt anti-semitic and
    turn-a-blind-eye anti-semitism, doing everything right in
    regard to the objectives of Ahmadinejad. All this in 18 months.
    Well. There is a remarkable vacuum now in regard to our
    articulating what other, mostly hostile nations may or may not
    get away with. This would make more sense if we were going to
    pull the troops inside the stockade (Pat Buchanon’s foreign
    policy). This makes very little sense given that we have Special
    Forces deployed in 85 countries, are consolidating one war’s
    gains (Iraq) and seeking desperately for momentum in a second
    war (Afghanistan), and continue to use the 7th Fleet to
    guarantee Taiwan.
    Accordingly, I think the nation most intrigued with this “oh dear”
    diplomacy is China. They’ve witnessed the annexation of 30% of
    Georgia, the abandonment of Israel, the apology tours, the
    exhaustion and depletion of the conventional military. If I were
    Taiwanese, I’d be getting my money off the island.

    Reply

  32. nadine says:

    drew, you’re only confusing the Israel-haters with facts. Still, it is necessary to combat the lies.
    What’s more disturbing is that people like Steve Clemons, who know how to disguise the same sentiments under delicate “oh, dear, oh dear” questions — aimed only at Israel, not at Turkey, naturally — have the ear of a good part of the Obama administration. Obama’s obvious wish to say “everybody play nice now” and then crawl under his desk in the Oval Office, gives encouragement to all the worst actors in the Mideast. Meanwhile Steve and his crowd continually agitate for the recognition and legitimization of Hamas, which would be a huge triumph for Iran and a disaster for US interests, as well as Israel.

    Reply

  33. Cee says:

    Rockets with thousands of ball bearings are fired at israeli homes.
    Israel allowed this to happen when they attacked Lebanon. They needed to use the dead and injured Israeli citizens in their PR war.

    Reply

  34. ... says:

    quote from elsewhere.. “When you define your national identity through military power (in Israel, the common saying is “If force doesn’t work, try more force”), the space for anything else is bound to shrink.”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/the-withering-of-liberal-zionism.html#comments

    Reply

  35. ... says:

    why are you such a zionist fanatic???????????

    Reply

  36. ... says:

    jeff quote ”force as last resort”… righto! that is why they are always murdering people… it is only a last resort…. next spring come by my place, as i need a load of manure and you seem to be able to offer this here in abundance………..

    Reply

  37. jeff says:

    David
    You are wrong the soldiers were told to use force as last resort.
    They went in without automatic weapons and instead with paintball guns and backup pistols only in life threatening situations.
    Notice how the other five ships no one was killed.
    Notice how today no one was killed.
    Israeli soldiers only opened fire after being thrown overboard, stabbed, kidnapped, mob attacks on soldiers hitting their heads with metal pipes with them on the ground, stealing their weapons and firing.
    David why are you such an islamist supporter?
    Are we all assad, sadr, nasrallah, meshaal, bashir.

    Reply

  38. jeff says:

    Rockets with thousands of ball bearings are fired at israeli homes.
    Hamas and islamic jihad fire them when kids go to school.
    You can see all the ball bearing marks on schools in ashkelon and sderot.
    These people that lecture israel have never lived under rocket fire.
    U.S goes to iraq across the world and iraq never hit the u.s but israel can’t have a blockade when rockets are fired at israeli towns.
    If mexico was firing rockets at new orleans you better believe there would be full scale operations against ships to mexico.
    These islamists are firing ball bearing rockets that islamists everywhere use.
    The left loves to take the side of islamists.

    Reply

  39. fyi says:

    The President of the United States, the highest magistrate on land, and Nobel Peace Laurete, choses silence when a citizen of the United States is wantonly murdered.
    Pathetic.

    Reply

  40. ... says:

    jeff and nadine switched sites on the hasbara express… just for fun nadine will be back and they can continue their 9-5 job trying to bullshit everyone who happens to read the comment sections of various websites… what a couple of losers and liars..

    Reply

  41. larry birnbaum says:

    Perhaps we can also have an investigation into the organizations that sponsored this attempt to break the blockade, their aims, where their money comes from, the involvement of the Turkish government, etc.

    Reply

  42. David says:

    I cannot think of the name of the movie, but in it a guy is taken out into the woods by the gangster hit team to prove he is one of them. His assignment is to assassinate someone he really doesn’t want to because of his connection to the guy’s sister. The comment to him as he is walking the intended victim out into the woods is to be sure to put a bullet in his head. That way you know he is dead.
    The goal of the Israeli hit squad was to kill people, to make sure they were dead. I imagine the objective was to scare everyone else out of joining in on such missions. The killing of Rachel Corrie was likely for the same reason. It is not really all that different from the primary motivation for lynchings in apartheid America: to frighten people out of participating in whatever activity the group in power objected to.
    And the idea that Israel would act as a willing transfer agent for all available, needed humanitarian supplies is laughable.
    Israel is in the process of self-destructing. Enlightened Jews get it, enlightened Jews are beginning to raise their voices, and Turkey and Ireland are apparently ready and willing to try to do something about Israeli brutalization of Gaza. Sadly, America’s official position is that brutality is ok so long as it is Israeli brutality. Palestinian brutality would be the only no-no, and even peaceful Palestinian and world resistance is unacceptable if Israel objects. It really is time to cut Israel loose, with our only commitment being the clear statement that we will not permit an invasion of or attacks on Israel, but that must be linked to a clear statement that Israel also will not be allowed to invade or otherwise attack anyone else.
    This crap about Israel protecting its security by what it did, and continues to do, to the aid flotilla, is best suited for fertilizing roses. And in fact it would be really nice if the purpose of the government of Israel shifted to raising roses instead of wreaking havoc. If they continue on their current path, they, and no else, will be responsible for their problems.

    Reply

  43. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I don’t think you understand rockets are being fired at israeli towns every day”
    You’re a liar.
    And yes, Hamas holds one prisoner. Israel holds thousands, including children.
    Get back under your rock, we already have a resident snake.

    Reply

  44. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “How do you think american soldiers would react if a turkish boat tried to go past u.s ships off iraq waters”
    Don’t make ignorant comparisons.
    Israel must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find supporters if the horseshit people like you come up with in her defense is any indication.
    The shit you have posted, thus far, isn’t even worthy of a response.

    Reply

  45. drew says:

    I’m baffled by the assertion that a sovereign is not entitled to
    blockade an avowed enemy that has flown a few hundred
    rockets into its neighborhoods. But I will let that go, since I
    gather the sentiment here is either that Israel is an illegitimate
    sovereign entity, or that Hamas would never dream of re-arming
    and relaunching rockets into Israeli neighborhoods. Certainly
    there’s not a shred of anti-semitism in comments such as Helen
    Thomas, that this particular group of 6 million (odd, how
    numbers repeat themselves) should go back to Germany and
    Poland.
    I will comment on the piece’s headline: “Why did they shoot so
    many in the head?”
    The story says that the Israelis carried Glock 9 mms, probably
    the Glock 19 (which I own). As a practical matter, a 9 mm is not
    a reliable one-shot-and-down weapon, if the shot is to the
    torso. You need a .40 for that, or the old school 1911 .45s. Our
    troopers have learned this in Iraq and Afghanistan and have
    transitioned to the larger .40’s. Since the rule of engagement
    here was to fire only if in mortal danger, the idea that they
    would try to kneecap assaulting targets is absurd. That is the
    stuff of television, the idea that you’re going to defend yourself
    by trick shooting in the dark. I speculate that if someone was
    10 feet from me with a lead pipe in his hands, and I had three
    buddies down already, I’d probably be thinking
    “disproportionate force” was a very, very fortunate thing to have
    in hand. That is standard handgunning doctrine, as well.
    The real debate here is whether or not Israel should be allowed
    to blockade its hostile client rump state, Hamas-land. The
    secondary issue is whether or not it is now polite discourse to
    suggest that the Israelis go home to Auschwitz, as Ms. Thomas
    exclaimed. The flotilla actors publicly stated that they sought
    martyrdom or the denuding of the blockade, and they seem to
    have succeeded, in part, in one of their wishes.

    Reply

  46. jeff says:

    non hater i saw democraticunderground in summer of 2006 and when israelis were killed they were jumping for joy as long with dailykos.
    Enough israelis killed and they love their victory for hezbollah, syria and iran.
    The left loves israeli blood. The left loves their hezbollah, hamas, iranian facists.
    The left is obsessed with jewish israel supporters like lieberman.
    The left is obsessed with israel like the right is with mexicans taking over their lives.

    Reply

  47. jeff says:

    Don Bacon
    Every ship is still going to be stopped by israel.
    Israel is offering the same thing they offered before this that red cross or outside could help with the inspection but not weapons or cement could be transported to gaza.
    So nothing different will come from this.

    Reply

  48. jeff says:

    Don Bacon
    Iran, hezbollah, syria are training and bringing in long range rockets to gaza.
    Hezbollah ship was stopped. Hezbollah was caught bringing in rockets to egypt to gaza.
    Who the hell cares about the world.
    This is about israel protecting themselves against nasrallah, meshaal, iranian mullahs, sadr.
    The world doesn’t have rockets landing on their homes.
    Israelis can live with the EU hypocrisy.
    The world doesn’t have to live rockets landing on their houses.
    Syria talked about rockets that could hit tel aviv, meshaal talked about rockets that could hit tel aviv airport same thing nasrallah said.
    Israel has to deal with hezbollah and their holocaust museum in southern lebanon. Iran and their holocaust cartoon contests.
    The world are a bunch of fools. The so called international community did nothing as iranian diplomats were caught with maps of where to wipe out sunnis in baghdad. Ayatollahs would go around rounding up sunnis and having massive mock hearings and executions with drills taking out their eyes. What did the world do about the shia torturing of sunnis in iraq. What about sadr’s thugs taking people from hospitals and relatives from morgues.
    The world? The leaders in europe are on their way out according to the polls from massive debt and immigration policies.
    The leftists in south america are losing like in chile.
    Obama is term limited he isn’t a king. Israel has to deal with their neighborhood forever.
    Hezbollah will never recognize israel. Iran won’t. Israel has to worry about israel not some pathetic international community.
    You mean the world the human rights council which praised sri lanka and bashes israel. That world.
    The world that allowed jews to be wiped out from europe.
    The so called pathetic world will only lead to a hardening of resolve in israel and will lead israel to defend herself more without assurances from the pathetic eu leaders and international leadership.

    Reply

  49. non-hater says:

    “The left loves when israelis were dead.”
    This is laughable.
    Earth to Jeff: Stop trying to defend Israel. You’re not helping.

    Reply

  50. jeff says:

    Pissed off american:
    How do you think american soldiers would react if a turkish boat tried to go past u.s ships off iraq waters.
    American troops would board it and be hit with a mob beating them with metal pipes on the ground, stabbing, shooting, throwing overboard.
    I don’t think you understand rockets are being fired at israeli towns every day.
    Gaza is a state of war. They are holding an israeli soldier.
    Israel can stop the ship in international waters. Israeli soldiers were the ones attacked.
    They were given orders to bring in paint ball guns and not automatic weapons and use pistols only in life threatening emergencies.
    This ship was told they could dock in egypt or ashdod with un and red cross inspecting cargo and they refused.
    Back last year when the mckinney ship was stopped they said next year there would be violence.
    They filmed everything and brought all the media along. There was no port ready in gaza this was all about provocation.
    A turkish doctor admitted it was planned by these islamists to kidnap troops and attack them.
    If they hadn’t attacked the result would’ve been the same as the ship today that was stopped peacefully.
    What is sickening is americans supporting this turkish islamist group that was involved in the LAX attempted bombing.
    The left meets radical turkish islamists.
    You say israeli firster that makes you an turkish islamist firster.

    Reply

  51. Don Bacon says:

    Defending the blockade is no longer an option.The world has said it must go, and even Obama has had to move on it.
    (Reuters) – The White House said on Friday Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip was unsustainable. “We are working urgently with Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and other international partners to develop new procedures for delivering more goods and assistance to Gaza,” said Mike Hammer, spokesman for the White House National Security Council.
    So something good should come out of this fatal raid.

    Reply

  52. jeff says:

    Hamas used an aid ship in 2007 for rocket launching platforms, bunkers.
    Hamas used the cement and other rocket materials.
    Rachel’s ship had cement in it.
    UN brought in cement for sewage projects and hamas stole it all.
    Hamas has also shut down all the ngo offices.
    Yet these leftists are working with hamas.
    Hamas had a coup against the executive fatah and threw fatah off building rooftops.
    Hamas was elected for the parliament not the executive and hamas refuses to hold another election.
    Helen Thomas showed what the real thoughts really are. This is their hero reporter.

    Reply

  53. jeff says:

    pissoff american
    Stopping ships in international waters are irrelevent to search for cargo. It doesn’t make a difference if they were in international waters.
    I keep seeing this argument about international waters. If you have read legal arguments it doesn’t make a difference if it was international waters or not. Gaza is a state of war with rockets fired all the time. A rocket squad was just taken out the other day. Rockets were fired this morning.
    UK stopped libya ships trying to help IRA in international waters.
    Legal experts say you can stop ships in the high seas so please stop with this international waters argument. It means nothing.

    Reply

  54. jeff says:

    The left was rooting for nasrallah. The left loves when israelis were dead. I watch leftist forums like dailykos and democraticunderground and when israelis were killed they cheered like crazy.
    The western leftists hate israel so much they saddle up with nasrallah, sadr, meshaal, assad, iran’s leaders.
    The right has an obsession with mexicans and the left has it with jews.
    Look how obsessed they were with lieberman’s campaign and ned lamont and used scarface against lieberman. If you go to dailykos or democraticunderground they blame israel for every problem in the world and banks were the fault of the jews.

    Reply

  55. jeff says:

    Fulkan Dogan wanted to be a martyr. Fulkan Dogan was part of a group that was involved in the attempted LAX bombing.
    Fulkan Dogan lived in turkey growing up and his family’s roots are all in turkey.
    This is yor american hero?
    The left meets the islamists of hezbollah, hamas, iran, islamic jihad, syria.
    Do away with gay rights, women’s rights as they share their jew hatred.
    The leftist politicians in europe are getting crushed in the polls. Rudd is on his way out in australia.
    Chile’s leftist lost last election.
    I thought the left hated oil yet they love iran who brought the weapons to southern lebanon and gaza. They love meshaal of hamas who is close to iran’s president.
    The left’s hypocrisy is breathtaking.

    Reply

  56. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Jeff, you don’t know WTF you’re talking about. You are apparently new here, and have not read the thousands of comments here opposing the Iraq war, and underscoring the travesty of non-combatant deaths.
    Why do you fuckin’ Israel Firsters, pointing the finger outwards from Israel, think that that is somehow a defense of Israeli actions?
    The IDF soldiers WERE NOT “attacked”. THEY were the “attackers”. They were in international waters, and they attacked the vessels just by the mere act of boarding them. Or do you murderous bigots believe that it is only Jews that “have the right to defend themselves”?

    Reply

  57. jeff says:

    Don Bacon, 3 americans were killed by ied in gaza. Yet you never hear about that.
    But the leftists talk non stop about rachel.
    But they never talk about close to a hundred u.s americans killed by suicide bombers in israel.
    Stop killing americans?
    How many americans has israel exactly killed.
    This turkish guy lived in turkey he was born here while his father was here for an MBA. He wanted to be a martyr. He grew up from a toddler in turkey and his whole family has roots in turkey. He was an islamist militant with a group with ties to the LAX attempted bombing. Some american. American as much as the fort hood killer.
    U.S killed more israelis from iraq war which ignited the region. Iraq war lead to al queda flourishing and lead to the bombings of the hotels in egypt from al queda where dozens of israelis were butchered. Lead to synogague attack in turkey.
    Israel now has two irans thanks to the u.s war in iraq. I think you got israel back plenty for trying to stop rockets from iran.
    Rachel corrie died while israel was trying to stop tunnels of rockets from iraq. Rockets that are fired at chemical sites in southern israel.
    Long range rockets that hezbollah, sadr, assad, iranians, hamas, islamic jihad bring to use against tel aviv airport and dimona, ashdod port, ashkelon chemical facilities, sderot, beersheva.
    Syria, Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah all support bashir of sudan the butcher of darfur who allows them to use sudan to transfer rockets from iran through sudan to gaza.
    israel will have to deal with sadr lead iraq forever now thanks a lot.
    The left now loves these islamists who say they don’t believe in gays. They cheer on facists like hezbollah, hamas, iran’s leader.
    The left loves hamas facists when it comes to israel. They will support the most radical people as long as they don’t like israel. The leftists are hypocrites.
    How can the leftists on these boats support hamas when hamas supports bashir of sudan who is killing in darfur.

    Reply

  58. JohnH says:

    As if there was ever any doubt that the New York Times is a propaganda rag, now we have conclusive evidence–a search of their website finds Fulkan Dogan’s name mentioned once, in a reader’s comment! He was shot, execution-style, in the head five times.
    And this from America’s “newspaper of record!” Shameful, absolutelly shameful.
    As for Nadine, her lies grow ever more incredible–“but the commandos were only armed with paintball guns.”

    Reply

  59. jeff says:

    Carroll why didn’t you go to Iraq if you were really involved in this.
    Why the hypocrisy.
    U.S was involved in iraq war with one milliion killed yet you obsess over israel.
    Could it be because they are jews. Could that be why you didn’t organize boats to break the iraq military siege of the waters.
    The hypocrisy is breathtaking.
    I love all these uk authors and uk bands in that say boycott israel but didn’t boycott the uk over the iraq war.
    UK is the most hypocritical nation on the planet bar none.
    From the media to their citizens. Their new prime minister cameron supported the iraq war but lets have an international investigation of israel for nine dead when one million died in iraq.

    Reply

  60. jeff says:

    Erdogan was for the iraq war in 2003 yet is obsessed with israel and is now some great arab leader. What an absolute fraud. For a war where one million died but when it comes to israel you would think he was some peace activist. Turkey also with their hypocrisy of how they treat the kurds.
    That shows the huge double standard and obsession with israel.
    The guardian/bbc/erdogan israel disproportionate focus.
    No boats for iraq but for israel the leftist europeans rise up.
    There was a military blockade of iraq waters and oil facilities but no boats.
    The hypocrisy is unreal. The media plants itself in iraq. Afghanistan might as well be on another planet for the europeans and their hypocrisy.

    Reply

  61. Carroll says:

    LOL…this is too funny. I can’t wait until Monday morning so I can call Sherman’s office and my own Senator’s and congressman offices and leave my name as one who was “involved’ (I donated some money)with the Free Gaza Campaign.
    Rep. Sherman: Prosecute U.S. Citizens involved with Gaza Flotilla
    June 4th, 2010 | Printable version |
    Share or recommend
    Share on FacebookShare on DiggTweetit
    On a press call hosted by a pro-Israel organization, Rep. Brad Sherman, Democrat of California, told reporters that he intends seek the prosecution of any U.S. citizens who were aboard or involved with the Freedom Flotilla.

    Reply

  62. jeff says:

    No shots were fired with live ammunication from israelis until two soldiers had already been shot by guns taken from the first soldiers on the ground. Then the fourth commando coming down had a gun pointed at him and he was the first israeli that fired live ammunition.
    Have these people that are judging these soldiers ever had a mob beating you with axes and metal bars when you are on the ground and they are going for your head and coming at you stabbing you with knives.
    UK soldiers get one shot on their base in afghanist and they unleash fire on whole villages.
    Yet israeli soldiers having a mob beating them with metal bars, knives, guns can’t fire back.
    The world media and political hypocrisy is unreal.
    The israeli govt had force as the very last resort. This was a plan by the turkish militants in the charity. They were paid and had planned the attack. No other people were killed.
    No other troops in the world face one percent the scrutiny from the world media as israel.

    Reply

  63. jeff says:

    Ten israeli soldiers were injured. One had a cracked skull.
    One had his ear cut off. One had a massive stab wound in the stomach and lost a lot of blood. 6 are still hospitalized with serious injuries.
    One was thrown 30 feet overboard and massive head injury.
    I know the european media sees 9 dead and zero for the israelis and that is what they base it on.
    Just like the iraq war they don’t compare uk citizens killed to iraqis killed. But israel always gets judged how many israelis were killed compared to others.
    I have read accounts that several were seconds from being killed from mob beatings with them on the ground. one was about to be shot again.
    The turkish boat was offered red cross and un inspection at ashdod or an egyptian port. If there had been the opposition in charge of turkey now this would’ve have never happened in the first place.
    If this turkish boat had tried to do this to u.s military in iraq waters there would have been far more than 9 dead. 5,000 were killed in fallujah.
    Israel went down with paintball weapons not automatic and had pistols as a backup.
    Another military and several dozens could have been killed.

    Reply

  64. Don Bacon says:

    The US SecState did make a statement regarding American deaths.
    Clinton:

    Reply

  65. d says:

    Jeff. Shoot shoot shoot. All these shots and gun barrels. Shell casings. Close combat. Exactly how many dozens of Israeli commandos were killed anyway?

    Reply

  66. Don Bacon says:

    Contrast the lack of US interest in the deaths and injuries of young Americans at the hands of Israeli killers to the concern for young American “hikers” held in Iran and the US concern for a captured young IDF soldier.
    Israel can kill, maim and kidnap Americans with impunity (even a former presidential candidate, Cynthia McKinney was kidnapped and held) while demands are made for the release of Americans held by Iran and for one Israeli soldier held by Palestinians (compared to the thousands of Palestinians held by Israel).
    The US government supports Americans (and even Israelis!) abroad UNLESS they are the victims of Israel. That’s criminal.
    SecState Clinton: “I was pleased to learn of the consular visit yesterday by the Swiss Ambassador in Iran to the three detained American hikers, Shane Bauer, Josh Fattal, and Sarah Shourd. But we are disturbed by the families

    Reply

  67. jeff says:

    One was shot by the fourth commando as he came down the rope and a gun was pointed at him that was stolen from one of the three commandos that came down first.
    Two other militants were shot with guns that had shot soldiers.
    Other militants were shot charging at soldiers with metal bats and knives and axes at the edge of a ship after soldier had been thrown over board.
    Another was shot in close combat saw the barrel of a gun pointed at him.
    There were shell casings found on the ship that that israel didn’t use. Those guns were thrown overboard.
    I love the arm chair generals here that question 20 year old soldiers in the middle of the night stabbed, beaten on the ground with axes by a mob, shot at, thrown 30 feet overboard, soldiers kidnapped.
    But u.s drones fired from las vegas hitting civilians in iraq, afghanistan, and pakistan doesn’t get one percent the coverage.
    The hypocrisy is breathtaking. The media and their fellow political players are obsessed with israel.

    Reply

  68. DonS says:

    “Clemons on this issue has shred the coolness of his impartiality ” (kotz)
    You’re either with us or with the Neanderthals Kotz.
    “Next time the IDF will go in greater numbers”. (nadine)
    Greater than the massing of dozens of ships, dozens of zodiacs, hundreds of troops?
    Mike, your ‘shoot to kill’ justifications sound plausible but unrelated to a situation that should have been viewed as crowd control, even violent crowd control. As details come out we will see what sounds like the more plausible version: the IDF sound machine, contradicted by assassination style killings (by this one brave “S” who conveniently becomes a hero), or the multiple, detailed reports of survivors who were under military assault in the middle of the night. Israel has already backed off there “these were all terrorists” line since the rest of the world — except of course it’s US accomplices, ain’t buying it. U.S. former chief of Mission in Iraq, Edward Peck, for example, associated himself with this effort. Further from ‘a terrorist’ I can’t imagine. As I said on the first day, even if the ‘activists’ had been hell bent on provocation, there was no justification for the Israeli tooprs 1) not to have anticipated the worst and 2) not to be prepared to handle violent crowd control.
    Truly, the Israeli arrogance that thinks it can have its soldiers kill any poulation with disproportionate use of force and then thumb it’s nose at world opinion — because Uncle Sugar can’t agree fast enough — is a disgrace to that nation.

    Reply

  69. jon says:

    At the very least, a shot to the back of the head cannot be
    considered an act of self defense.
    The number of dead with multiple bullet wounds in various parts of
    the body is also very troubling. This suggests that activists were
    shot after having already being wounded in locations that would
    have prevented them from being active threats. Some of this might
    be attributable to ‘heat of the moment’ explanations, but overall it
    shows poor discipline, leadership, training and personal carriage.
    The acts of the boarding party, and we will see if this behavior was
    ordered or condoned by their superiors, has greatly harmed the
    interests of Israel. A tactical error will develop into a strategic
    setback. The sooner Israel revises both its tactics and strategy the
    better.

    Reply

  70. nadine says:

    “The Israeli killers want it both ways — the IHH were terrorists, but they weren’t expected to be violent terrorists.”
    Yes, the Israelis expected – ah, what’s the term I always hear? – moderate Islamists. For once, you have half a point, Don Bacon. The Israelis seemed to think the IHH Islamists would take color from the peaceniks, instead of taking over the peaceniks.
    In Israel, nobody debates that this mistake was a big intelligence failure.
    “S, was certainly a busy little shooter.”
    Indeed. That’s why S. is still here to talk about it. Next time the IDF will go in larger numbers and better armed, which (perhaps paradoxically to you) will mean they don’t have to shoot anybody to stay alive.
    The Jpost is reporting that the Rachel Corrie was boarded without incident, and is proceeding to Ashdod Port.

    Reply

  71. Don Bacon says:

    S. did not expect to be landing in what he called

    Reply

  72. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Lets see, eenie meenie, miney moe, who we gonna believe????
    After all, look how unbiased and “honest” the Israeli’s mouthpieces are.

    Reply

  73. nadine says:

    kotz, Steve Clemons is working overtime for the pro-Hamas, excuse me, “pro-engagement” wing of the “realist” school. As Mark Perry so helpfully explained, first you have to find someone you can declare a “moderate” to placate the rubes. Then you start the appeasement, excuse me, “engagement” process, explaining that since they are there, you just have to talk to them.
    Hamas, of course, will be just delighted to talk. And collect concessions. And talk some more.

    Reply

  74. nadine says:

    As it happens, the Israeli and Turkish reports of what happened on the Mavi Marmara differ very little, so Steve Clemons would do better to read than to “wonder”.
    The Israeli commandos had useless paintball guns and their sidearms. The pro-Hamas activists had two Israeli sidearms, a Moroccan rifle, knives and iron bars, all of which they used. The Israelis were “better armed” only inasmuch as they had a few more guns than the other side. They were outnumbered by the activists, who were quite actively trying to kill them. Wondering how come they shot to kill is like Jimmy Carter wondering, “Couldn’t you just shoot them in the legs?” It doesn’t work like that.
    Now, Steve, see if you can read this account:
    We had no choice, commando who killed 6 tells ‘Post’
    By YAAKOV KATZ
    06/04/2010 06:13
    “They were coming at us with murder in their eyes,” says S., describing the “battlefield” aboard the

    Reply

  75. Don Bacon says:

    kotz, you’re a kind of a klassic. KKK.

    Reply

  76. kotzabasis says:

    Clemons on this issue has shred the coolness of his impartiality and he has become with the title above this thread and this one, not to mention the previous one with the title

    Reply

  77. Mr.Murder says:

    Ask Joe Biden, he will set the record straight, with straight talk. You cannot set bulldozers out to sea to crush their skulls, so Israel shot them in the head.
    Hope that clarifies things.

    Reply

  78. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Steve, if this is so “outrageous” than why have we seen NO comments, essays, or exposes from this blog about Tristan Anderson, or the other three Americans targeted and seriously injured while engaged in peaceful protest in the West Bank? God knows, we sure got a bellyful of “Neda” on this blog.
    Fact is, Israell is targeting American kids with impunity, and their lives are being THROWN AWAY because the so called progressives, the media, Congress, the State Department, their President, and “realists” are too chickenshit to raise the issue. These aren’t radicals engaged in attacking Israel. They are morally motivated kids THAT REALLY DO GIVE A FUCK about human rights. AND THEY ARE BEING IGNORED by their country, their leaders, and BLOGS SUCH AS THIS ONE.
    Israel has now SHOT DOWN four American citizens in the West Bank in less than two years. And the average American doesn’t EVEN KNOW. Don’t these kids deserve better than that? Is that how we reward our youth that adopt humane causes and make horrible sacrifices in pursuit of those causes?
    Hard to ignore this flotilla thing, isn’t it Steve? Gee, how inconvenient for the Washington crowd. Don’t these Israels know better than to murder Americans in the media spotlight? Better to quietly shoot them in the head in the West Bank, eh?
    Shhhh, don’t tell anyone. AIPAC might take ya off their mailing list.

    Reply

  79. ... says:

    mike, they didn’t have to go on the boat, but they did… further to that, they opted to continue with their aggressive approach by murdering people… israel is delinquent and apologists around here like you ain’t cutting it..
    better check the link above this one for the latest hasbara bullshit..

    Reply

  80. Don Bacon says:

    Mike,
    Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Or is your misbehavior intentional?
    *shot four times in the temple
    *shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back
    *Two other men were shot four times
    *Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back

    Reply

  81. ... says:

    steve, a better question would be ‘why does the usa continue to support israel in the face of their ongoing actions?’ the usa has done the same in the gaza war of early 2009, and they ignored the goldstone report which most people believe was neutral… any way you look at any of this, usa is not playing world cop, but cop-out… israels actions are inexcusable on every level here…
    however the usa is not neutral and not an honest broker in anything, which begs the question ‘why?’

    Reply

  82. Mike says:

    I have problems with a lot both sides are saying in this matter,
    but suggesting IDF Marines should simply “shoot to wound” is
    ridiculous.
    If you are being attacked by a mob of people with steel rods and
    knives, and reasonably believe your life is in danger, you have a
    split second decision to make to protect yourself. It is entirely
    consistent with self defense to have close quarter wounds to the
    attackers’ head, you are shooting people who are close to you
    and attacking you. You don’t pause and try to wound them
    when they are trying to kill you. You shoot to kill.
    To suggest something else simply ignores common use of force
    doctrines.
    Again this is no commentary on the decision to board or the
    blockade itself.

    Reply

  83. Cee says:

    The RACHAEL CORRIE (why won’t anyone in the TV media report the name of this ship?) is 100 miles from shore now.
    I came back to leave the Hedges quote from The Gaza Diary.
    Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered

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  84. David says:

    The closest thing I can think of to this is the behavior of a mafia hit squad.

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  85. Dan Kervick says:

    Well, Avigdor Lieberman said before the raid that they must stop the flotilla “at any cost”. looks to me like the Israelis were trying to send a message.
    Or it could be, as I suggested earlier, that some of the soldiers participating this operation are the same kinds racist, ultra-religious, rage-filled loose cannons who shot innocent civilians during Cast Lead as well.
    One thing that needs to be part of any investigation is whether elements of the IDF have gone off the reservation.

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  86. Don Bacon says:

    Why Did They Shoot So Many in the Head?
    Religious-racist hatred as seen in this clip.
    http://tinyurl.com/2375aaj
    There is support for this hatred in Washington.
    The self-described Zionist US vice president talking about Israel’s absolute rights to board ships and kill people: “I think Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest.” — VP Biden
    An absolute right.
    With mid-term elections coming up the AIPAC website is carrying statements of support from senators (8, including 5 Dems) and representatives (47, including 25 Dems). No doubt they are lining up others; that’s what they do.
    The Israel deadly raid supporters include Rep. Barney Frank who was initially “ashamed to be a Jew” but then saw the light and wrote: “Let

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  87. Cee says:

    I’ve read that a hit list of photos was found on the ship. They assassinated them.
    I recall that Christopher Hedges said that he regularly saw the IDF shooting children in the head.

    Reply

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