Open Thread and Kissinger’s Un-Realism

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henry_kissinger.jpg
I’m at a conference at the College of William & Mary but am also having a serious dental problem with a tooth fractured ten years ago — and need to deal with that.
The thread is open.
But seriously, Kissinger advising Bush and Cheney on Iraq? Victory is the only exit?
Kissinger’s realism has seriously withered.
Even James Baker, who is an annointed spear-carrier for both G.H.W. Bush and G.W. Bush would never make such a statement — particularly privately as Kissinger reportedly has.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

62 comments on “Open Thread and Kissinger’s Un-Realism

  1. babyplease says:

    zionist approved?!?!?!
    try NEO NAZI, Pauline!
    Tell me what is poorly worded about this:
    YOU ARE AN IDIOT
    Got it?

    Reply

  2. pauline says:

    babyplease,
    So, I offer you sources that aren’t on your Zionist-approved web lists, I offer you a book whose author isn’t on your Zionist-approved author’s list, yet you cannot offer anything but poorly-worded insults.
    Seems like instead of seeking the truth of this matter, you can only fall back on insults.

    Reply

  3. babyplease says:

    I can’t believe that i’m wasting more of time responding to the likes of you, Pauline, but alas it’s so much fun pushing back against your campaign of disinformation.
    I still can’t believe that you draw conclusions based upon what you read on neo-nazi websites!!! well, actually, I do believe that. the country is full of mental midgets and bigots like yourself.
    And no, pauline, I won’t be purchasing or reading any book by the well known PSEUDO journalist and avowed anti-semite named Victor Thorn. What a joke that you cite him as a source for your disinformation!!!!
    The World Independent News Group?!?! HAHAHA!!! This is the same guy who blamed the Columbine massacre on a zionist plot!
    You sure keep good company, Pauline.
    Taken with the rest of the trash you’ve written on this blog, including sourcing your information with links to nationalvanguard.com, an aryan nation website, I think your idiocy speaks for itself.
    Further, it’s not for me or anyone else to prove that the accusations you and your neo-nazi friends make are untrue. How am I supposed to prove that Henry Kissinger is NOT a dual-citizen?!?! Should I have the State Department or the IRS mail you his file?! No. you make an accusation and YOU better back it up with REAL information, not some bullshit from the aryan nation or victor thorn! don’t you think that if all of these individuals were Israeli citizens, that fact would be documented by REPUTABLE sources?!
    you’re a pathetic joke of a person, Pauline. I could care less about your personal opinions (since they mean nothing), but WHEN YOU POST BULLSHIT ALLEGATIONS ON THIS BLOG SOURCED WITH NEO-NAZI PROPOGANDA AND WORSE, I DRAW THE LINE!
    Now how do those jack boots feel, Pauline.

    Reply

  4. pauline says:

    babyplease,
    You must need a nap, babyplease, for you’re far too grumpy and not making much sense.
    Read “9/11 Evil” by Victor Thorn, pages 83-99, where he covers in great detail all the dual citizenship names and issues. Maybe you could sue him if you think he’s really printed false information. Publishing a book is little more liable than merely blogging opinions.
    Now, for the benefit of the rest of the readers here, instead of weak insults, maybe you could provide ANY evidence, any evidence at all that the dual citizenships previously listed are in fact, not true.
    Try stating that for just one, just one of the included names? hmm. . .?
    Is it illegal to have a dual citizenship? No, it is not. Is is wise and a smart thing to do in our post-9/11 days? And, why would all of these dual citizens come from the same country? And, what other countries out there allow dual citizens to hold high positions of authority and access to classified information?
    My contention is that such high positions in our federal government should under no circumstances be open to dual citizens. What guarantee, if any, is there for a dual citizen with any other country to be completely loyal to the USA and our constitution?
    http://www.juancole.com/2005/01/feith-resigns-under-pressure-of.html
    Why, my goodness, that must just seem so unreasonable to your little mind!
    That is, of course, unless you just happen to be a Zionist apologist.

    Reply

  5. babyplease says:

    You make my point perfectly, Pauline.
    Again, I find it HILARIOUS that you get your information from websites named propogandamatrix.com and rumormillnews.com and from a FULLY AVOWED WHITE SUPREMECIST/NEO-NAZI/ARYAN NATION website!!!!
    And you and others here are worried about “dual-citizens?!?!” I’m worried about idiots like YOU, Pauline!
    and while we’re at it, what about sourcing the disinformation that you posted about the other Jewish administration officials?
    Richard Pearle
    Henry Kissinger
    Paul Wolfowitz
    Elliot Abrams
    Douglas Feith
    David Wurmser
    … and maybe you can do so with a reputable source of information and not neo-nazi websites?
    I won’t hold my breath, you moron.

    Reply

  6. pauline says:

    babyplease,
    Are you denying the info posted here?
    “Dov S. Zakheim is the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Defense. Zakheim, a dual citizen of Israel/US, served as a senior foreign policy advisor to Governor George Bush during the 2000 presidential campaign.”
    That was my ONLY reason for listing this source. If you have proof to the contrary, stop complaining and start showing us.
    It’s real interesting that Mr. Zakheim was also the comptroller of the Pentagon when Donald Rumsfeld announced to the world on 9/10/01, one day before our worst day in American history, that the Pentagon cannot account for over two TRILLION dollars.
    Nice job of accounting, Mr. Zakheim!
    http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/trillions.html
    babyplease, is this your best counter argument?!

    Reply

  7. HotHead says:

    babyplease
    Pls, list some your top ten links from which you get your political information.
    I am waiting.
    This should be GREAT, i.e. you do not run away like Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld ran away from Viet Nam.

    Reply

  8. babyplease says:

    Even better, Pauline, now you’ve REALLY outed yourself!
    posting a link to nationalvanguard.org as a source for your bullshit disinformation?!
    nationalvanguard is a KNOWN white supremecist, aryan nation website.
    This blog and its confederacy of dunces contributors have sunk to a new low. Pathetic.
    Check it out, POA. You might find a whole new group of friends.
    Sig Heil, Pauline!

    Reply

  9. pauline says:

    I find it hilarious that babyplease apparently sees no connection at all that under the comptroller duties of Dov Zakheim at the Pentagon that on 9/10/01, the day before our worst day in American history, Donald Rumsfeld is announcing that the Pentagon can’t find a couple TRILLION dollars.
    Nice job on the accounting, Mr. Zakheim!
    http://whereisthemoney.org/
    http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/trillions.html

    Reply

  10. pauline says:

    Kissinger Still Giving Bad Advice
    http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=9782

    Reply

  11. Pissed Off American says:

    “Your self-righteous recriminations are HILARIOUS!”
    Posted by babyplease
    As is your useless drivel that offers NOTHING in rebuttal, except your irritating cackling under multiple screen names.

    Reply

  12. babyplease says:

    You must be kidding us, Pauline.
    The Rumor Mill News and propagandamatrix.com are your sources?!?!?!
    Your self-righteous recriminations are HILARIOUS!

    Reply

  13. pauline says:

    mr. Phillips (or whatever pseudonym you are calling yourself these days) wrote:
    “I also find it curious that Pauline hasn’t responded to my last inquiry about sourcing her “dual-citizenship” claims. maybe she hasn’t checked back or was this disinformation?”
    If you cannot do your own google search on the internet, you need more help than factual, political help.
    Some one of us just happen to have
    real lives that require time away from these discussion boards.
    Do you want someone to read these sources to you out loud?
    http://jbuff.com/c090805.htm
    http://judicial-inc.biz/arab_port_deal.htm
    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/September2006/010906Bollyn.htm
    http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=66175
    “9/11 Evil” book by Victor Thorn extensively covers the list of dual US/Israeli citizen federal gov’t personalities.
    http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=2626
    Comverse Infosys — was largest supplier of wiretap equipment to fed gov’t. here’s a news story about their past ceo who may have profitted from pre-knowledge of 9/11.
    CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The company is Comverse Infosys, a subsidiary of an Israeli-run private telecommunications firm, with offices throughout the U.S. It provides wiretapping equipment for law enforcement. Here’s how wiretapping works in the U.S.
    Every time you make a call, it passes through the nation’s elaborate network of switchers and routers run by the phone companies. Custom computers and software, made by companies like Comverse, are tied into that network to intercept, record and store the wiretapped calls, and at the same time transmit them to investigators.
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1154525936067
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525937751&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    http://www.rense.com/general35/zev.htm

    Reply

  14. Matthew says:

    I can’t get over Condi’s recent remark that we need to stay in Iraq to counter Iranian influence. First, does Iran have 147,000 soldiers in Iraq? (So I guess “foreign” influence is only pernicious when it’s other Muslims. No mention of the majority of Iraqis who want us out. Now.) Second, when did Iran get this influence? Oh, I think it was only after we took down Iraq’s very anti-Iranian government in 2003. Under Condi-logic, today’s fire-fighter was yesterday’s arsonist.

    Reply

  15. HotHead says:

    mr. phillips: nonetheless, I have a hunch that our strategic partnership with Israel, in the extremely volatile Middle East, is worth the cost.
    Huh?
    How anyone could be so divorced from reality makes it obvious that you are either drunk or simply intellectually unfit to see that Israel is in a far worse position it was in prior to 2003.
    Who, exactly, do you think the Al Dawa and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq (sic!) are?
    HINT: They are not pro-USA, pro-Israel, pro-Western values, etc.
    Iraq = a burgeoning fundamentalist Islamic republic which is teeming with hundreds of thousands of pro-Hezbollah, pro-Iranian, etc. zealots which are now unleashed.
    Iraq = 50, 000 dead Iraqis + tens of thousands maimed, burned, etc.
    Iraq = 3000-ish dead US soldiers + tens of thousands maimed, burned, etc.
    Iraq and Afghanistan = $500 billion
    How is tens of thousands of people killed, maimed, and murdered PLUS $500 billion worth it?
    What does the US have to show?
    Is Iraq, by way of Al Dawa and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, now a loyal partner with the US in the so-called war on terror?

    Reply

  16. Matthew says:

    Mr. Phillips: the difference between the $2 billion and the actual number, about $6 billion, is enormous. It represents a very large part of the total US foreign aid budget. Keep in mind that Israel has a population between 6-7 million. Egypt, which does get $2 billion, has a population 10 times larger; and most of that is military, not economic aid. Israel’s relationship to the US is unlike any other country’s. If you are supportive of that, so be it. However, when Israel’s supporters provide grossly inaccurate information about that relationship–whether intentional or otherwise–that misinformation will be challenged.

    Reply

  17. Pissed Off American says:

    “I also find it curious that Pauline hasn’t responded to my last inquiry about sourcing her “dual-citizenship” claims. maybe she hasn’t checked back or was this disinformation?”
    Posted by mr. phillips
    I have a better idea, Philips. Why don’t YOU repudiate her allegations with some facts. Surely, if they are not holding dual citizenship, as has been asserted for some time now, you can direct us to some instances of them issuing denials, or some other form of proof that they ARE NOT holding dual citizenship.
    “I was not inventing facts. I thought I was clear in stating that I wasn’t sure of the actual figure.”
    And in regards to your rebuttal to Mathew’s assertions as to the amount of aid we piss away in supporting Israel’s campaign of genocide, if you do not know the actual figure, why pray tell are you jacking your jaws about this issue? Maybe it would be wise for you to educate yourself somewhat as to the true amount, before you commit to the mistake of making the same kind of an ass of yourself that the last Israeli apologist did here, before he jumped on the Jungle Ride. Or do you have a pocket full of E-Tickets too?

    Reply

  18. mr. phillips says:

    Forgive me, the following sentence included a typo:
    “Evidently, every U.S policy maker over the last 60 years has agreed.”
    I meant to change the word “every” to “most.”

    Reply

  19. RobertHume says:

    Any truth to this? From http://takistopdrawer.us/ Sept 30.
    “And while I’m at it, I am about to place a large bet that, following the American mid-term elections, Bush will bomb Iran and use tactical nuclear weapons. In his crazed zeal to install democracy in that part of the world, W. has been convinced by the neocons that he could get the American people behind him if he won a big one. He does not have the men to invade, and, even if he did, another Iraq-like disaster would follow. But tactical nukes would win the day, or so they’ve convinced him. At a meeting last week of neocons in New York, Norman Podhoretz got up to speak and said that the highest authority in the land had assured him that Iran’s nuclear facilities were as good as kaput. The place went wild. I had a friend attending who rang me up with the news. So I will bet that it will happen, especially if the Republicans lose the House and look bad doing it.”

    Reply

  20. mr. phillips says:

    Matthew,
    I was not inventing facts. I thought I was clear in stating that I wasn’t sure of the actual figure.
    But, isn’t a large part of U.S. foreign aid to Israel actually in the form of loan gurantees? and what about Egypt? Even if the figure you state is correct, $6 billion equals only the cost of three weeks of our spending in Iraq. For all the hooplah about the $’s we’re wasting in Israel, I find this amazing. Perspective helps and oftentimes surprises.
    nonetheless, I have a hunch that our strategic partnership with Israel, in the extremely volatile Middle East, is worth the cost. Evidently, every U.S policy maker over the last 60 years has agreed. And I believe that to say this is all because of AIPAC’s influence is incorrect.
    I also find it curious that Pauline hasn’t responded to my last inquiry about sourcing her “dual-citizenship” claims. maybe she hasn’t checked back or was this disinformation?

    Reply

  21. Matthew says:

    An argument is never better than its factual support. It’s important, nay, devastating, to Mr. Phillips’s argument that he claims that Israel only gets $2 billion/year in aid from Uncle Sam. In fact, it’s more than $6 billion. And Congress just raised it by almost $500 million more–about twice what the Cheney Administration requested. Mr. Phillips factual inaccuracy is, therefore, not just a mistake, but part of the overriding mythology about the American/Israel relationship. And if someone has to invent facts to support a relationship, well…that act speaks for itself.

    Reply

  22. Matthew says:

    An argument is never better than its factual support. It’s important, nay, devastating, to Mr. Phillips’s argument that he claims that Isarel only gets $2 billion/year in aid from Uncle Sam. In fact, it’s more than $6 billion. And Congress just raised it by almost $500 million more–about twice what the Cheney Administration requested. Mr. Phillips factual inaccuracy is, therefore, not just a mistake, but part of the overriding mythology about the American/Israel relationship. And if someone has to invent facts to support a relationship, well…that act speaks for itself.

    Reply

  23. Pissed Off American says:

    Brent Budowsky — Independent Investigation Needed: Did Congressional Republicans Cover Up Page Abuse Scandal?
    Submitted by BuzzFlash on Sat, 09/30/2006 – 8:12pm. Guest Contribution
    A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
    by Brent Budowsky
    How can one explain that a senior Republican Congressman is only now forced to resign over a major scandal involving apparent sexual overtures to pages that were reported to Republican Congressional Leaders almost a year ago?
    When a second Republican Congressman found out about these acts long ago, did he only report it to the Republican in charge of electing Republicans to Congress? He should have immediately gone right to the Speaker, but apparently he did not, it appears he wasmore interested in alerting the partisan Republican Campaign Committee?
    Exactly who did he report this dangerous situation to?
    There was significant provable documentation of the acts in question long ago, including e-mails and instant messaging. Could it be true that Congressional Republican leaders did not immediately seek them?
    For Republican leaders so hell bent on eavesdropping and invasions of privacy, it would be derelict if they did not seek this provable evidence eleven months ago, and equally derelict if they sought it, had it, but did nothing for almost a year. Surely they dont believe that the legitimate seeking of emails and IM to protect young pages is less important than the eavesdropping they otherwise champion so aggressively?
    Either they did nothing, in which case the safety and security of young Congressional pages was endangered by extreme neglect, or they did, in which case they covered up some very wrong and dangerous conduct.
    These acts were committed, incredibly, by the Congressman in charge of the group with the responsiblity of protecting children against abuse. Why was he not removed, immediately, ten or eleven months ago, with a public acknowledgement of the acts and a public statement of commitment by the group he led to protect our children from abuse?
    Were the emails and IM’s immediately read, or not, eleven months ago?
    Exactly which Republican leaders were aware of this and exactly what did they do eleven months ago, ten months ago, nine months ago?
    Was there at least a serious investigation about whether any other pages were approached by Congressman Foley, eleven months ago?
    Was there a serious investigation about whether new protections are needed for all pages, from potentially dangerous abuse, eleven months ago?
    What is urgently needed is some form of investigation, special counsel, outside advisor or some appropriate way to investigate what actually happened, and immediately and without any delay report back to the public and the full Congress about measures that should have been taken, and will be taken now, to protect the pages.
    We do not need another case where we find out long after the fact that our entire intelligence community believes the Iraq war creates more terrorists.
    We do not need another case where a Senate Intelligence Committee report is covered up until after the election, about false statements made by high level officials, misleading the public and Congress about Iraq intelligence.
    We do not need a sham investigation by a political committee in a one party Congress desperately trying to maintain control and therefore highly unlikely to seek and report the truth.
    The safety and security of the Congressional pages is paramount to all other considerations.
    The protection of the Congressional pages from abuse by Congressmen must be first, second, and third order of importance and the partisan and political convenience of politicians seeking to protect their power must not endanger even one of these good young men and women who serve as pages.
    We must get the truth.
    We must protect the pages.
    We must enforce the law.
    We must punish the wrongdoers.
    We must have an independent investigation beyond partisan influence and we must have it now, immediately, until we are 100% certain that not one page is endangered by one Congressman.
    Brent Budowsky
    A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION

    Reply

  24. sdemetri says:

    Riverbend hasn’t posted anything since August. She’s overdue.

    Reply

  25. Pissed Off American says:

    “It’s vile. It’s more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction.”
    (Foley, in 1998, commenting on Clinton’s behavior.)
    Our nation is led by hypocritical scum.
    BTW, it appears that Hastert has been aware of Foley’s fetish for young boys for over a year now, and did NOTHING. I mean, after all, who cares if he is offering to “slip the trousers off” of young pages whose parents have entrusted the safety and welfare of their kids to dispicable pieces of shit like Foley? Hastert, for his lack of action, is equally culpable, and should step down.
    BTW, isn’t it a felony to proposition minors? And if you know such a crime is being committed, isn’t it a crime not to notify the authorities?

    Reply

  26. TLittle says:

    I would like to “Marcia at September 30, 2006 05:25 AM” that what we will win is an ally, we will win democratic state in the Middle East. However, this will likely take too long to accomplish.
    We win this war by not losing. We stay there, we hold no matter what the cost, and eventually we will win.
    The administration has messed up the rebuilding effort, they have messed up strategy, so we will likely lose. The most comitted wins and this failed is what we did not do in Vietnam.
    There is no oil in Iraq, we get 15% of it from Venezuala and most of it from Canada. (I think this statistic is correct)
    Lets

    Reply

  27. RobertHume says:

    An article in today’s Washington Post also remarks that Cheney seems to have lost touch with the situation since he lost the guidance of Scooter Libby. This explains to me how it could be that Cheney has been doing the neocon’s bidding so thoroughly. As Scowcroft has remarked, he seemed to have changed. Likely his heart attack made him more easily manipulateable … and he was manipulated by a cabal that clustered around him. Until this remark in the Post this hypothesis, which I had read before, seemed only a possibility. Through Cheney, Rumsfeld was also manipulated. So will we nuke to Iran? Hope not.

    Reply

  28. Mocu says:

    …So, when Foleys not sponsoring legislation to curtail internet sexual victimization, he is offering to pull down the trousers of young boys…
    There are rumors among market watchers Foley’s slated replacement, although its too late for reprinting candidate name changes on ballots, is a young investment banker in FL with clients that include, not just one or a few, but ALL of the pols desirous of unseating a 3 time winner.

    Reply

  29. RichF says:

    Dear Mr. Phillips (respectfully):
    You wrote:
    “Something tells me that [pauline] and others are confusing Judaism, which is a religion, with ethnicity. It is my understanding that there are Jews from all continents and all races, including Asian Jews and African Jews.”
    Duh. You’re splitting hairs, and missing the point. Israel’s national security lies in ensuring any human being–citizen or not, resident or not, guerilla or not, combatant or not, Jew or not–be able to petition their govt for redress of grievances and receive a substantive, genuine response. And in treating them humanely. As does America’s national security. Go figure.
    AND in maintaining in practice a democratic, accountable government. Right now both countries are so far gone, we have neither. But the more we adhere to our core values, the less substantive basis for terrorism. Provide a political outlet to address the concerns of the constituencies that support militant groups using terrorist tactics, and you eliminate the need for militancy/violence. The fallacy of ‘not negotiating with terrorists’ lies in that notion’s instant evisceration of any democracy’s basis for legitimately ruling at all. A basis that rests on a functioning democratic system of laws, not men. If you deny ALL RECOURSE to a political solution, there’s no option but violence for populations pushed to the brink of extinction. (2 examples: Brits torture American colonists; Brits lose to U.S. Declaration of Independence. Brits open political channels to the Irish; no need for terrorism.)
    “To say that a Jew would have more “allegiance” to Israel than the United States”, is the same crappy argument that the Republicans made against JFK.”
    That is NOT what was said. That utterly misrepresents the issue. You OMIT the ENTIRETY of pauline’s post to claim this. I myself ADAMANTLY support Israel’s statehood. Their tactics and understanding of Realpolitik, however, could use some improvement.
    It’s fallacious to think the interests of the Israel and America could ever be one and the same. By definition, it damages our security to act as though it does. Even the Israelis understand this. And obviously act accordingly.
    “As far as the uproar over this country’s foreign aid to Israel, I respectfully disagree. I happen to think that this is money well spent. I believe that, for the most part, it advances America’s interests to support this bastion for democracy in the Middle East. On the whole, I believe that we have benefited greatly from this relationship.”
    I’m all for aid, but at what scale? It can never mean ‘anything goes’ as far as Israel’s internal and external policies. Democracy?
    Benefited? Of course! Israel is a giant distraction from America’s own activities in the region, (what was it Riverbend(young Iraqi blogger-girl) said? “Rape. . . . The poor girl Abeer was neither the first to be raped by American troops, nor will she be the last. . . . The naiveté of Americans who can’t believe their ‘heroes’ are committing such atrocities is ridiculous. Who ever heard of an occupying army committing rape??? You raped the country, why not the people?” http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ ). The more mistakes Israel makes, the better for Bush: less heat about Iraq.
    That fundamental misapprehension of Realpolitik and of America leads to even short term damage, not benefit. Witness the rise of Hezbollah in capacity, technical military expertise, political support, & social cohesion. Hezbollah won.
    “Let’s keep everyhting in perspective. I think we give israel roughly $2 billion annually, along with Egypt? right? Alot of money to be sure, but i just read today that we are spending $2 billion EVERY WEEK in Iraq!”
    FALLACIOUS argument. $2 billion is too much, and this only shows how bankrupt Bush Iraq policy actually IS! 1) Somebody’s getting shortchanged; and 2) NO amount of $money$ can fix or compensate for a bankrupt set of political policies & principles. Well spent? What’s it gotten anyone so far? Real story: ‘Here’s ~$100 bucks. Sorry about your daughter.’
    “RichF, I agree with much of what you say. I DO recognize the McCarthyism of the Bush administration. I’m horrified by it. . . . the 90 some-odd % of american jews who have historically voted Democrat. . .
    . . .
    I believe that it is incorrect to credit AIPAC with creating and maintaining America’s long standing support of israel. They (AIPAC) have a fairly easy job because their agenda, the support of Israel, has, for the last 60 years, been in line with the best interests of this country.
    thanks for the forum and the debate.
    Posted by mr. phillips at September 29, 2006 11:01 PM”
    The policy is the issue, not the religion. You don’t seem to recognize that that’s the point being raised. (I don’t know if that’s purposeful.) Xtian, Jewish, neocon–it’s about a bankrupt set of policies and nothing more.
    A confluence of interests created the alliance, but whatever AIPAC’s influence is, that’s irrelevant to the damage wrought by those in agreement. I’m adamanty for a very strong Israel. But it’s remarkable how poorly thought out the current arrangement is. Bush is exploiting Israel’s addiction, & the blindness of both continue to extend the self-destructive carnage. AIPAC’s got it wrong, either way.
    There is an insularity in policy circles, an abandonment of core values, a lack of effectiveness, an unreasoned and unreasonable refusal to engage in good faith debate based on facts, a rejection of the rule of law, and an inbred/aristocratic attitude towards the input of citizens and the redress of grievances–all defended by a faux-phony fealty to a totalitarian nicety. You can’t be nice to torturers. The fetish with military might, Israel, and with violating every Constitutional norm and every lesson of political realism and centrism is the antithesis of constructive & sound security policy, respectful dialogue, let alone “freedom on the march.”
    In WWII, Germany lost because it also violated those principles. It initiated preemptive wars–without evidence. It changed its own laws to legitimate its lawlessness. Just as otherwise responsible and sane Americans assert that a formal Declaration of War isn’t necessary. This–on the face of it–is a Big Lie. Germany engaged in torture, and genocide. And they lost.
    We will lose too. Somehow. As we fail all the ends-means tests. It shouldn’t be so hard to choose America. Winning the external battle will only come from winning the internal battle for America itself. Fixing Iraq has never been the primary issue–fixing the breach of trust (& law) that allowed the Iraq War to go forward–IS. It is the worst-case scenario–the very definition of “high crimes and misdemeanors.” No values-voter, no “radical centrist,” no conservative Constitutionalist, no patriot–could ever assert otherwise.

    Reply

  30. Pissed Off American says:

    The United States will remain in Iraq indefinitely, not for humanitarian reasons, but economic. Iraq has the world’s second largest oil reserves, (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/irqindx.htm) and we will not allow them to fall into the hands of an unfriendly regime.
    Posted by Roger Wehage
    Besides, we gotta stand between Israel and Iran. Why waste Israeli lifes to fight Israel’s battles when the AWOL coward Bush is perfectly willing to expend the lives of young Americans at Israel’s bidding?
    How many innocent people will die today because of Bush’s actions? Scores. No power. A destroyed infrastructure. Daily bombings. Rampant acts of torture. Beheadings. Militias masquerading as official police. Food and medical shortages. An environment contaminated with DU, a deadly radioactive dust. This is Bush’s “Democracy on the march.” And the lies go ON AND ON AND ON by this Administration. Everything is fine, we are “winning”, mission accomplished, last throes, we have to torture the evil doers to acquire security, we are spying on you for your own good, Haliburton is our friend, and Israel deserves our money more than we do.

    Reply

  31. Roger Wehage says:

    The United States will remain in Iraq indefinitely, not for humanitarian reasons, but economic. Iraq has the world’s second largest oil reserves, (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/irqindx.htm) and we will not allow them to fall into the hands of an unfriendly regime.

    Reply

  32. HotHead says:

    Marcia: The object of the invasion of Iraq being control of ME oil as a means of imposing American
    This war is also for the sake of the Federall subsidized anti-capitalistic military complex which loves to suck off the teats of Lady Liberty in a manner that would make the most greedy loafer whince.
    This war is also for the security of Israel.

    Reply

  33. Pissed Off American says:

    So, when Foleys not sponsoring legislation to curtail internet sexual victimization, he is offering to pull down the trousers of young boys. These are the people running our country, folks. How many scandals these last five years involving deviant sexual behavior by Republican leaders?? And who can forget the whore and pornographer doing sleep overs in the West Wing while masquerading as a “journalist”?
    And these bastards claim to represent “Christians”? Torture. Lying us into wars. Pedophilia. Cronyism. Nuclear escalation.
    Welcome to Bushlandia.

    Reply

  34. ET says:

    I’m an elementary teacher, so indulge me.
    Morning Math Recap, boys and girls (she writes on the board):
    40 D House Members + 12 D Senators = X
    Solve for X.
    What we know: Those D’s are committed, indeed, but not to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, due process, the Geneva Accords or any founding principle of democratic civilization existent in our lifetimes.
    What we think we know: We have entered the zone of asymmetrical politics 101 — and the rules of two-party engagement are out the window. The good is now the enemy of the best. So we need to clean out the rot that used to be good, but went bad, is going bad, or will go bad. Those are all various stages of D & R moral decomposition.
    Making a difference: It’s going to get pricey. More and harder won’t nearly cut it. Prophetic might, unless they kill the prophets. After they torture them.
    Wake the nation!

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  35. nandrews3 says:

    Trying to square Kissinger’s counsel to Bush and Cheney with any consistent attachment to “realism,” or any consistent policy principles at all, is a fool’s errand.
    What’s consistent here is Kissinger’s own personality. He’s a courtier. He wants proximity to power. Over his entire career, starting with his work for Nelson Rockefeller, he has advanced views and arguments aimed at ingratiating himself with patrons. This was even true with Nixon, although here Kissinger’s loyalty was obviously not undivided.
    He’s never stopped. Books like “Does America Need a Foreign Policy?”) are never anything more than efforts to win over Republican skeptics in high places by bashing Democrats. If Bush and Cheney were somehow inclined to seek an exit from the mess they’ve made, Kissinger could offer suggestions about how to manage that. But since Bush and Cheney seem determined only to ride the thing out, Kissinger is perfectly willing to tell them how terribly important it is to do that.

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  36. Marcia says:

    To TLittle
    “I am not saying this is an acceptable strategy, however, I do belive the president that if we stay the course we will win. Sadly, staying may be too costly to the American people.”
    Have you a clear idea of just what we will “win.”
    The object of the invasion of Iraq being control of ME oil as a means of imposing American hegemony, empire, whatever you want to call it but certainly not promoting peace and spreading democracy. It is small wonder that oil is known as the “devil’s excrement.”
    These liars who have hi-jacked our governmant are interested in power and money. The American people and the rest of the world get about as much consideration as you would give to the spare tire in the trunk of your car. You only think about it when you need it.

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  37. Zathras says:

    Is it written somewhere in The Blogger’s Code that any snippet from a Bob Woodward book that has not yet been published must have its implications commented on before the weekend talk shows finish taping?
    The firmament would not dissolve nor the oceans boil if the news cycle were defied at least long enough for excerpts from this latest work to be published in the newspapers.

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  38. Pissed Off American says:

    Anyone with any integrity would refuse to be aligned in ANY capacity with these treasonous bastards in the White House, even if only as an advisor. Kissinger fits right in with this crew. These are the slimiest sons of bitches that have EVER rolled down the pike. I can think of no cluster of scumballs in history that can equal these clowns in universally shared scumrodery. I mean really, have you ever seen such a vast collection of evil human beings gathered in one small blip of history, wielding such power? God help us.
    Its a shame these guys didn’t get together before the advent of modern weaponry, because it would be a delight to see them clubbing and slicing each other to death on the battlefield. But now, we find ourselves in the unenviable position of realizing these friggin’ megalomaniacs have their fingers on the Nuclear Trigger.
    I’ll tell ya what,these bastards in the White House scare me far more than Saddam Hussein EVER did.

    Reply

  39. mr. phillips says:

    “Is this list good enough?
    Richard Pearle
    Henry Kissinger
    Paul Wolfowitz
    Michael Chertoff
    Elliot Abrams
    Dov Zakheim
    Douglas Feith
    David Wurmser
    Try google.com — it’s all over the internet.”
    But, Pauline, with all due respect, you have not sourced your assertion. There is all sorts of information, much of it innacurate, on the internet. Please back up your claim with specific links if you can.
    Do these individuals carry american and israeli passports?
    Something tells me that you and others are confusing Judaism, which is a religion, with ethnicity. it is my understanding that there are Jews from all continents and all races, including Asian Jews and African Jews.
    To say that a Jew would have more “allegiance” to Israel than the United States, is the same crappy argument that the Republicans made against JFK; that he would have more allegiance to the vatican than to this country. Obviously this was not true. Did Madeline Albright have a conflict of allegiance to czechoslovaia (her birthplace)?
    As far as the uproar over this country’s foreign aid to Israel, I respectfully disagree. I happen to think that this is money well spent. I believe that, for the most part, it advances America’s interests to support this bastion for democracy in the Middle East. On the whole, I believe that we have benefited greatly from this relationship.
    Let’s keep everyhting in perspective. I think we give israel roughly $2 billion annually, along with Egypt? right? Alot of money to be sure, but i just read today that we are spending $2 billion EVERY WEEK in Iraq!
    RichF, I agree with much of what you say. I DO recognize the McCarthyism of the Bush administration. I’m horrified by it. I’m not defending Kissinger; I never voted for his party, but I do think it’s a mistake to focus on the religious affiliation of members of any administration. Even if Pauline’s assertion is true, which I highly doubt, what about the fact that the VAST majority of policymakers in the Bush Administration, including the president, VP, sec. of defense and state, the national security advisor, almost all of the generals, and the congressional hierarchy are Christian? Although they are surely a highly effective lobby, I believe that Carroll and others give AIPAC far too much credit. Also keep in mind that the current evangelical support of Israel is a fairly new phenomena, cooked up in large part by Rove and other Republican strategists as a way of courting the 90 some-odd % of american jews who have historically voted Democrat.
    I believe that it is incorrect to credit AIPAC with creating and maintaining America’s long standing support of israel. They (AIPAC) have a fairly easy job because their agenda, the support of Israel, has, for the last 60 years, been in line with the best interests of this country.
    thanks for the forum and the debate.

    Reply

  40. TLittle says:

    In this type of war the most committed wins.
    The same stargey application in Vietnam, you win this war by not losing.
    I am not saying this is an acceptable strategy, however, I do belive the president that if we stay the course we will win. Sadly, staying may be too costly to the American people.

    Reply

  41. HotHead says:

    Rick B: For all the discussion of Bush’s Iraq War coming out of Washington, D.C., I find surprisimgly little description of what the desired end-state there will look like.
    Well, one thing is for sure, it sure as hell does not at all look like the democratically elected govt that is in place in Iraq today, i.e. the one that is pro-Hezbollah and pro-Shia fundamentalist.
    The govt of PM al-Maliki is the precise opposite of what Messrs Kristol, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al had in mind when the drafted the principles of the PNAC in the 1990s.
    Sick thing is that in direct response to the 9/11 attacks, Boy George *inadvertently* fathered a burgeoning fundamentalist Islamic republic which has extremely close and long standing ties to Iran, a so-called axis of evil.
    Here are some figures:
    911 = Nearly three thousand murders + tens of billions of dollars
    Iraq and Afghanistan = Tens of thousands of murders + over $400 billion
    keywords: Iraq; Al-Dawa; al-Maliki; Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq; SCIRI; Hezbollah; G. W. Bush; PNAC; Iran; Afghanistan; Kristol; Cheney; Rumsfeld; 911; Islamic Fundamentalism; kitchen sink ; )

    Reply

  42. Frank says:

    Kissinger, the bloody war criminal who was oxoymoronly awarded the Nobel Peace prize, advising Bush in the war on terror?? The taste of innocent blood is addictive it seems. No wonder the war on terror in Iraq mimics the Viet Nam tragedy.

    Reply

  43. Donna Z says:

    Last March at the forum, “Vietnam and the Presidency,” Kissinger was asked if he had any regrets about Vietnam. He garbled, “No. No regrets.”
    Shortly after K’s remarkable remark, I had lunch with someone from the Pentagon and group of historians, everyone at the table was stunned.
    Kissinger’s head contains lots of knowledge that he seems unable to apply to reality.

    Reply

  44. Marcia says:

    To David Stahl
    Kissinger is certainly a respected, and powerful, figure in foreign policy. But he is also a very polarizing figure – and a person whom many hold responsible for atrocities in Cambodia and Vietnam during our failed idelogical war
    I think the question of whether or not Kissinger is respected is really wide open. Power is certainly his cup of tea.
    To RichF
    And the words won’t come easily when our children ask us if we ‘just did our jobs,’ did as we were told, and were, after all ‘good Americans.’
    I understand exactly what you mean.
    Please view Dean Lawrence R. Velvel’s new Web site for those who wish to signal to the present and to posterity that they wish to disassociate themselves from the present administration and its actions.
    http://lethistoryknow.com/Home_Page.html

    Reply

  45. RichF says:

    Mr. Phillips wrote:
    “This kind of talk scares me. Maybe you are too young to remember Joseph Mccarthy and the communist scare, but I do.
    Posted by mr. phillips at September 29, 2006 03:01 PM ”
    Please. If you’re old enough to remember McCarthy, you’re adult enough to recognize the MCarthyism of the Bush administration.
    If you doubt even a single iota of pauline’s post, then don’t read Hitchens’ book–just watch the movie. It’ll take less time, and for anyone–familiar with the Vietnam War era or not–it gives a remarkable insight into those times and delivers a real understanding of Kissinger’s role in them.
    “The Trial of Henry Kissinger”
    See it. Rent it. Pass the word.
    Mr. Phillips, it’s not a matter of dual-citizenship. George W. Bush openly shows just as much contempt for the national interest as the neocons, displays an equally reckless disregard for our national security, and just as eagerly upends and violates every law and treaty and foundational principle he can get his hands on. BOTH Bush and his neocon buddies should be forced–nicely, respectfully, and from the “radical center” to choose between America-the-country and his misbegotten ‘policies’ and if that means choosing between one country and another in the process, this country will be much better off. (fyi, i’m very pro-Israel)
    But these policies do not defend this country–they eviscerate it. In every sense of the word.

    Reply

  46. Carroll says:

    As for Kissinger..thumbs down.
    I think his “moral deficit” prevents him from having any value to US policy….no matter what his take on Iraq turns out to be.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    Mr. Phillips…now you have hit on one of my pet peeves about influence centers in our goverment..and I tend to agree with pauline in part.
    However it is not strictly a matter of Jewish dual citizens or Jews in the main, as it also extends to gentiles under the influence of Jewish right wing/Israeli lobbying organizations like AIPAC. If pauline’s kind of talk scares you, you should be more scared of the type of thinking these groups promote among jews at large and in our congress.
    As an American with only one country, I resent it being used to futher the interest and loyalties of a small group to benefit another country, especially when it is bad for my one and only country. Our situtation in the ME in regard to the Isr/Pal conflict is a perfect example of how the israeli fetish in DC has harmed the reputation and interest of our own country. And there is no reason for the amount of aid we taxpayers give to Israel except for the AIPAC influence and the ponzi scheme weapons industry…especially when we could put that money to better use in more deserving areas.
    So it is a topic whose time has come and is going to discussed for the sake of this country. Those who have not “deliberately” gone against the interest of America have nothing to fear from McCarthy like hearings but those who have, and there are some in pauline’s list, should be brought to account.

    Reply

  48. Matthew says:

    Maybe Kissinger will advise Bush “to declare victory and go home.” And why not, Fox News (and GM) would spin it. There is nothing new here. Just read Edward Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.” I think we are somewhere between Caracalla and Septimus Severus.

    Reply

  49. RichF says:

    For someone who’s always been labeled a bright guy in the arena of power politics, Kissinger has always failed to understand what George Washington always practiced and knew in his bones: if you have the power, the most powerful politically-fruitful move is not always to exercise/abuse that power.
    Kissinger was forced to withdraw as George W. Bush’s choice pick to head up the 9-11 Commission. We could itemize his sordid history, but the fact that Kissinger couldn’t stand the light of day really says it all.
    Of course, that Bush would think calling on Kissinger at all is incredibly telling. It speaks to W’s integrity of course, and to his whatchagonnadoaboutit authoritarianism, but also to his blindered belief that no one can see what’s going on.
    If the dead and devastated and the attack on 9-11 had mattered to anyone in this country at all, Kissinger would have been forced to spit up his client list even after withdrawing his name. That guy skittered back under the fridge at the mere thought of daylight falling on his dealings.
    Politeness, faux principle–nah. UH-uh. Too eager to “serve” (betray) despite being LOADED with conflicts of interest. That alone should have led to intense and unrelenting scrutiny. Guys like Kissinger–with his litany of costly and misguided mistakes–dont’ understand anything but the shoe about to squish ’em. Urging citizens to be respectful or nice to “Heinz” is morally and politically bankrupt. It doesn’t work. It can’t work. And the words won’t come easily when our children ask us if we ‘just did our jobs,’ did as we were told, and were, after all ‘good Americans.’

    Reply

  50. pauline says:

    Mr Phillips:
    Don’t forget to add Jack Abramoff to the dual list.
    Now ain’t that interesting!?

    Reply

  51. pauline says:

    Mr Phillips wrote:
    can you tell us who these US/Israeli dual-citizens are? where did you get your information?
    Is this list good enough?
    Richard Pearle
    Henry Kissinger
    Paul Wolfowitz
    Michael Chertoff
    Elliot Abrams
    Dov Zakheim
    Douglas Feith
    David Wurmser
    Try google.com — it’s all over the internet.

    Reply

  52. Jeffery Hutt says:

    Steve,
    I really don’t see why it Kissinger’s viewpoint is surprising. If you reread The White House Years you will see that these remarks are right in line with his thinking during Vietnam. I think the question we should be asking, Kissinger, as well the Administration, is- what is victory? In my thinking, that defines an exit strategy.
    And the whole idea of timelines and concessions with the Left; don’t expect Kissinger to advocate any part of it. Throughout Vietnam he felt that concessions to the Left only strengthened their resolve, resulting in more demands for concessions.
    Hey, great job you’re doing here!
    Thanks,
    Jeff

    Reply

  53. mr. phillips says:

    Pauline:
    “Bush has turned over virtually all the high security and advisor positions in his admin to these US/Israeli dual-citizens”
    can you tell us who these US/Israeli dual-citizens are? where did you get your information?
    This kind of talk scares me. Maybe you are too young to remember Joseph Mccarthy and the communist scare, but I do.

    Reply

  54. grytpype says:

    Kissinger is probably telling Bush that we could afford to lose Vietnam, but we can’t afford to lose Iraq.
    And that massive escalation of the conflict is the only path to victory now.
    And he’s right both times.

    Reply

  55. You go, Chavez! says:

    What Chavez said.

    Reply

  56. pauline says:

    David Stahl tells me “We (all of us) have created a huge mess – cleaning it up is going to be harder that making it.”
    Stahl, how have I specifically caused this and how have all the American citizens who have carefully studied the many flaws in the official 9/11 story, have carefully studied the lie-filled run up to this illegal, unconstitutional war and have written and spoken to as many elected officials as possible — how are we responsible?
    In his extremely well-researched book, “The Trial of Henry Kissinger” Christopher Hitchens writes
    convincingly that “Henry Kissinger is a war criminal according to published American and International legal standards. Hitchens builds his case not from a moral or political point of view but from a purely legal one based on evidence that Kissinger was responsible for acts of genocide, assassination, and unlawfully interfering with government operations both in the United States and in foreign countries.”
    “In places such as Chile and Argentina, according to Hitchens, Kissinger merely supervised the assassination of democratically elected heads of state and the establishment of brutally repressive and murderous military dictatorships. His accomplishments were more significant in East Timor where, with his help, one third of the population was murdered, and in Indochina where he not only colluded in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese but also in Cambodia and Laos where under his guidance, Nixon illegally extended the war and waged it almost purely against the civilian population.”
    Maybe Kissinger has fallen to the “jackass of spades” in the Zionist/neo-con royalty flush, but, gee, what a great, close advisor for our torture-loving, constitution-busting, bill-of-rights smashing president.
    Bush has turned over virtually all the high security and advisor positions in his admin to these US/Israeli dual-citizens and we Americans should expect no less from these two murder-loving s-o-b’s.
    imo, both are war criminals and now thanks to Congress, free from being charged with their war crimes and their many acts that once were considered treasonous. Their ideas of “democracy” mean “kill some more, torture some more, as long as we stay in power and Israel doesn’t have to foot the bill.”
    imo, these two are master liars and killers literally hanging together on this ill-advised, murderous, treasury-busting “war on terror”!

    Reply

  57. Anwar al-Insurgent says:

    The return of Henry the ‘K’! Ew…ew…I know, the U.S. will now secretly bomb Jordan, Turkey, and Kuwait. Won’t solve any Middle East problems but, the carnage and resulting devastation will only highlight the comprehensive lack of coherent policy strategy that is the presidency of George ‘clueless’ Bush.

    Reply

  58. Marky says:

    In a just society, Kissinger would have been hanged for crimes against humanity. He has the blood of millions on his hands, speaking “realistically”. It’s no surpise that a monster like Kissinger would be giving advice at torture central on Pennsylvania Ave.

    Reply

  59. Hue says:

    “Peace with Honor”‘s new meaning is “victory is the only meaningful exit strategy.”

    Reply

  60. Rick B says:

    Does Henry K. bother to define how we will recognize victory in Iraq if or when it appears?
    For all the discussion of Bush’s Iraq War coming out of Washington, D.C., I find surprisimgly little description of what the desired end-state there will look like.

    Reply

  61. Punchy says:

    How much of this is the Kissinger helping to advise the Bush team, versus the Bush team seeking out help only from those who agree with their rigid mindset and template?
    In other words, Bush may have other advisors, but won’t publically disclose them if they disagree with Bush. Only those who fall in line with Cheney’s views become advisors, in a public way.

    Reply

  62. David G. Stahl says:

    Dear Steve Clemmons:
    Kissinger is certainly a respected, and powerful, figure in foreign policy. But he is also a very polarizing figure – and a person whom many hold responsible for atrocities in Cambodia and Vietnam during our failed idelogical war.
    Personally I would surmise that his own decisions in the Nixon Whitehouse would leave him unable to advise effectively the current Bush administration. He would also not have much insight into how to unite America around a single policy in Iraq, in my very humble opinion. Of course, I am fool to think that the Bush administration understands what it really needs to do in Iraq (or that the Democrats understand the quagmire any better).
    We (all of us) have created a huge mess – cleaning it up is going to be harder that making it.
    Steve – any chance we can get your insightful opinions about the horrible Detainee bill that got through congress? My sense is that it will not rally the GOP voters this fall – but might increase Democratic passions that the President has once again over reached. A number of Democratic Senators (and a couple of Democratic house members – like my own neighbor Tim Holden) voted for it. It will haunt our country, I believe, until it can be repealed – which will be very difficult politically.
    Yours,
    David G. Stahl

    Reply

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