On Sunday, Iraq War Longer than World War II

-

Edward Luce and Demetri Sevastopulo have a thoughtful piece in the Financial Times anticipating the impact of the Iraq War narrative on the American psyche, particularly as of Sunday when the “Iraq War will enter its 1,347th day, thus overtaking the US’s involvement in the second world war.”
Some key excerpts. The first on Bush’s unflagging self-delusion about the Iraq War:

President Bush has made it plain that he still seeks victory in spite of almost universal scepticism that such an outcome can be achieved. To many, the US president’s stubborn faith in a war that has so far belied almost all of its reasons raises fears about how much longer it will last — and whether worse will follow. “To almost everybody except Mr Bush, Iraq is a tragedy,” said Kurt Campbell, former national security advisor to Bill Clinton and now vice-president of the Centre for Strategic International Studies. “We are probably only in act two or three of this tragedy — there may be many more to come.”

On the Bush administration’s success at buffering the American public from the true costs and impact of this war and a seering comment from former State Department Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson:

Much of the human cost of the war has been kept out of sight, including the return of the dead given the Bush administration’s ban on the televising of bodybags.
But the extended tours of duty imposed on volunteer part-timers in the National Guard and Reserves as well as regular units has ruptured military morale, according to Larry Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Colin Powell, Mr Bush’s first secretary of state.
As a result the Pentagon has been forced to dilute recruitment standards — waiving academic requirements and lifting the age limit from 35 to 40. “This is a war that is being fought by poor people while the rest of the country drives round in its SUVs barely noticing it is happening,” said Mr Wilkerson, who served in Vietnam.

And on the as yet unrealized costs of this war and the possibility of revived American isolationism:

“If you think of the Iraq war as a pool then it is still on the [US] surface,” said [Kurt] Campbell. “But beneath it there are many concealed rocks.” One such hidden cost could be a diminished appetite for international engagement — an “Iraq syndrome” to match the US’s reduced self-confidence following Vietnam is more likely this time, says Steve Clemons at the New America Foundation in Washington.
“It is too early to be sure what effect Iraq could have on the America public,” he said. “It could be anger, it could be isolationism or some longer-term malaise. There is still a lot that we cannot anticipate.”

Because of the Bush administration’s choices and style of management of America’s national interests, the nation is facing NO good options. So much will need to be rebuilt and recrafted by the next President, and the international system will be highly suspect of this nation — no matter who is elected.
More later.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

86 comments on “On Sunday, Iraq War Longer than World War II

  1. pauline says:

    A Fraud Worse Than Enron
    by Elizabeth de la Vega
    “Elizabeth de la Vega, appearing on behalf of the United States. That is a phrase I’ve uttered hundreds of times in 20 years as a federal prosecutor. I retired two years ago. So, obviously, I do not now speak for any U.S. Attorney’s Office, nor do I represent the federal government. This should be apparent from the fact that I am proposing a hypothetical indictment of the president and his senior advisers — not a smart move for any federal employee who wishes to remain employed. Lest anyone miss the import of this paragraph, let me emphasize that it is a DISCLAIMER: I am writing as a private citizen.”
    “Obviously, as a private citizen, I cannot simply draft and file an indictment. Nor can I convene a grand jury. Instead, in the following pages I intend to present a hypothetical indictment to a hypothetical grand jury. The defendants are President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell. The crime is tricking the nation into war, in legal terms, conspiracy to defraud the United States. And all of you are invited to join the grand jury.”
    “We will meet for seven days. On day one, I’ll present the indictment in the morning and in the afternoon I will explain the applicable law. On days two through seven, we’ll have witness testimony, presented in transcript form, with exhibits.”
    “As is the practice in most grand jury presentations, the evidence will be presented in summary form, by federal agents — except that these agents are hypothetical. (Any relationship to actual federal agents, living or deceased, is purely coincidental.)”
    “On day seven, when the testimony is complete, I’ll leave the room to allow the grand jury to vote.”
    “If the indictment and grand jury are hypothetical, the evidence is not. I’ve prepared for this case, just as I would have done for any other case in my years as a prosecutor, by reviewing all of the available relevant information. In this case, such information consists of witness accounts, the defendants’ speeches, public remarks, White House press briefings, interviews, congressional testimony, official documents, all public intelligence reports, and various summaries of intelligence, such as in the reports of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the 9/11 Commission. I’ve discarded any evidence, however compelling, that is uncorroborated.”
    “Then, using a sophisticated system of documents piled on every surface in my dining room, I’ve organized and analyzed the reliable information chronologically, by topic, and by defendant. I’ve compared what the president and his advisers have said publicly to what they knew and said behind the scenes. Finally, I’ve presented the case through testimony that will, I hope, make sense and keep everybody awake.”
    “After analyzing this evidence in light of the applicable law, I’ve determined that we already have more than enough information to allow a reasonable person to conclude that the president conducted a wide-ranging effort to deceive the American people and Congress into supporting a war against Iraq. In other words, in legal terms, there is probable cause to believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Powell violated Title 18, United States Code, Section 371, which prohibits conspiracies to defraud the United States. Probable cause is the standard of proof required for a grand jury to return an indictment. Consequently, we have more than sufficient evidence to warrant indictment of the president and his advisers.”
    “Do I expect someone to promptly indict the president and his aides? No. I am aware of the political impediments and constitutional issues relating to the indictment of a sitting president. Do those impediments make this merely an empty exercise? Absolutely not.”
    “I believe this presentation adds a singular perspective to the debate about the president’s use of prewar intelligence: that of an experienced federal prosecutor. Certainly, scholars and experts such as Barbara Olshansky, David Lindorff, Michael Ratner, John Dean, and Elizabeth Holtzman have written brilliantly about the legal grounds for impeachment that arise from the president’s misrepresentations about the grounds for an unprovoked invasion of Iraq. But for most Americans, the debate about White House officials’ responsibility for false pre-invasion statements remains fixed on, and polarized around, the wrong question: Did the president and his team lie about the grounds for war? For many, the suggestion that the president lied is heresy, more shocking than a Baptist minister announcing during vespers that he’s a cross-dresser. For many others, indeed, now the majority of Americans, that the president lied to get his war is a given, although no less shocking.”
    “So my goals are threefold. First, I want to explain that under the law that governs charges of conspiracy to defraud, the legal question is not whether the president lied. The question is not whether the president subjectively believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The legal question that must be answered is far more comprehensive: Did the president and his team defraud the country? After swearing to uphold the law of the land, did our highest government officials employ the universal techniques of fraudsters’ deliberate concealment, misrepresentations, false pretenses, half-truths, to deceive Congress and the American people?”
    “My second goal is to supplement the scholarly analyses already written, by moving beyond exposition, beyond theory, to the inside of the courtroom, or more precisely, the grand jury room. By presenting the president’s conspiracy to defraud just as a prosecutor would present any fraud conspiracy, I hope to enable readers to consider the case in an uncharged atmosphere, applying criminal law to the evidence that they believe has been proved to the standard of probable cause, just as grand jurors would in any other case.”
    “Why is it important to do this? Because whether the president and his senior officials conspired to defraud the United States about the grounds for war is, at least on one level, a legal question, but, without a shift in political will, there will never be any reasoned consideration of it as such. The president will not be held accountable for misrepresenting the prewar intelligence unless and until Congress conducts hearings similar to the Watergate hearings. As yet, however, we seem painfully incapable of reaching that point. We are like inept tennis partners, collectively letting the ball slip by in the no-man’s-land between the service line and the baseline, or in this case, between the legal and the political.”
    “Perhaps more important, however, is that, although the evidence of wrongdoing is overwhelming, the facts are so complicated, far more so than those that prompted the Watergate hearings, that it’s impossible to have a productive debate about them in the political sphere. Indeed, modern-day spin has vanquished substance so thoroughly that even the most well-grounded charge of deliberate deception is often considered more despicable than the deception itself.”
    “One forum where that’s not true is the courtroom. The court system is far from perfect, but there we at least expect that people will not substitute personal attacks for argument. We expect a reasoned exploration of fact versus fiction, honest mistake versus deliberate fraud. We also expect, and the law requires, that people hear all the evidence before deciding, thereby avoiding the rapid volley of sound bites that so regularly masquerades for debate on television. Hence, this hypothetical grand jury presentation: it is a vehicle to deliver a message.”
    “My third goal is to send the message home — to whomever will listen. And this is it:
    The president has committed fraud.
    It is a crime in the legal, not merely the colloquial, sense.
    It is far worse than Enron.
    It is not a victimless crime.
    We cannot shrug our shoulders and walk away.”
    Excerpted from “United States v. George W. Bush et al.” by Elizabeth de la Vega, published
    Elizabeth de la Vega is a former federal prosecutor with more than 20 years of experience. During her tenure, she was a member of the Organized Crime Strike Force and chief of the San Jose Branch of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Northern District of California. Her pieces have appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, and Salon. She writes regularly for TomDispatch. This is the introduction to her new book, “United States v. George W. Bush et al.” She may be contacted at ElizabethdelaVega@Verizon.net.

    Reply

  2. pauline says:

    A book worth reading and sharing —
    “United States v. George W. Bush et al.” (Paperback)
    “In United States v. George W. Bush et al., former federal prosecutor Elizabeth de la Vega brings her twenty years of experience and her passion for justice to the most important case of her career. The defendants are George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, and Colin Powell. The crime is tricking the nation into war, or, in legal terms, conspiracy to defraud the United States.
    Ms. de la Vega has reviewed the evidence, researched the law, drafted an indictment, and in this lively, accessible book, presented it to a grand jury. If the indictment and grand jury are both hypothetical, the facts are tragically real: Over half of all Americans believe the president misled the country into a war that has left over 2,500 American soldiers and countless Iraqis dead. The cost is $350 billion-and counting.”

    Reply

  3. pauline says:

    Anbar Picture Grows Clearer, and Bleaker
    The U.S. military is no longer able to defeat a bloody insurgency in western Iraq or counter al-Qaeda’s rising popularity there, according to newly disclosed details from a classified Marine Corps intelligence report that set off debate in recent months about the military’s mission in Anbar province.
    The Marines recently filed an updated version of that assessment that stood by its conclusions and stated that, as of mid-November, the problems in troubled Anbar province have not improved, a senior U.S. intelligence official said yesterday. “The fundamental questions of lack of control, growth of the insurgency and criminality” remain the same, the official said.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/27/AR2006112701287.html

    Reply

  4. pauline says:

    Iraq Descends Into Religious Civil War
    After the largest death toll from a single attack since Hussein’s fall, sectarian bloodletting seems likely to escalate.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1128/p01s02-woiq.html

    Reply

  5. .... says:

    too bad americans couldn’t be reminded of that when they are feeling outrage of 9-11.. it is one thing to have lofty ideals.. it is another to have them implemented.. if americans want to think of themselves as carrying the mantle for all these loftly ideals, they need to back it up with their actions.. the war in iraq was just an oil grab and continuation of the military establisments hold on power, political and financial… too bad not enough voting americans can’t tell when they have been had sooner then later. presently the republicans and democrats are much the same party- both catering to the war agenda, if not in iraq, then in iran and etc. etc. very sad to see and ny times article hightlights this.

    Reply

  6. pauline says:

    Bob Herbert, in today’s NY Times, opines that
    “With no obvious personal stake in the war in Iraq, most Americans are indifferent to its consequences. In an interview last week, Alex Racheotes, a 19-year-old history major at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, said: “I definitely don’t know anyone who would want to fight in Iraq. But beyond that, I get the feeling that most people at school don’t even think about the war. They’re more concerned with what grade they got on yesterday’s test.”
    His thoughts were echoed by other students, including John Cafarelli, a 19-year-old sophomore at the University of New Hampshire, who was asked if he had any friends who would be willing to join the Army. “No, definitely not,”
    he said. “None of my friends even really care about what’s going on in Iraq.”
    This indifference is widespread. It enables most Americans to go about their daily lives completely unconcerned about the atrocities resulting from a war being waged in their name. While shoppers here are scrambling to put the perfect touch to their holidays with the purchase of a giant flat-screen TV or a PlayStation 3, the news out of Baghdad is of a society in the midst of a meltdown.
    According to the United Nations, more than 7,000 Iraqi civilians were killed in September and October. Nearly 5,000 of those killings occurred in Baghdad, a staggering figure.”

    Reply

  7. pauline says:

    Americans Are Shopping While Iraq Burns
    Bob Herbert opines today —
    “With no obvious personal stake in the war in Iraq, most Americans are indifferent to its consequences. In an interview last week, Alex Racheotes, a 19-year-old history major at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, said: “I definitely don’t know anyone who would want to fight in Iraq. But beyond that, I get the feeling that most people at school don’t even think about the war. They’re more concerned with what grade they got on yesterday’s test.”
    His thoughts were echoed by other students, including John Cafarelli, a 19-year-old sophomore at the University of New Hampshire, who was asked if he had any friends who would be willing to join the Army. “No, definitely not,” he said. “None of my friends even really care about what’s going on in Iraq.”
    This indifference is widespread. It enables most Americans to go about their daily lives completely unconcerned about the atrocities resulting from a war being waged in their name. While shoppers here are scrambling to put the perfect touch to their holidays with the purchase of a giant flat-screen TV or a PlayStation 3, the news out of Baghdad is of a society in the midst of a meltdown.
    According to the United Nations, more than 7,000 Iraqi civilians were killed in September and October. Nearly 5,000 of those killings occurred in Baghdad, a staggering figure.”
    http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/opinion/27herbert.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26nQ3DTopQ252fOpinionQ252fEditorialsQ2520andQ2520OpQ252dEdQ252fOpQ252dEdQ252fColumnistsQ252fBobQ2520Herbert&OP=e73cb61Q2FvFWxvQ23KQ3E@@Q23vXCCfv88vX)v@IQ20Q5DQ20@Q5DvX)YWQ3ExWQ3EQ23MYQ23d,

    Reply

  8. ... says:

    thanks for the post robert mac.. it appears the bush admin is intent on protecting saudi arabia and sacrificing accounatablity for who was behind 9-11.

    Reply

  9. winnipeger says:

    and POA, you still haven’t answered my question from an earlier post:
    if you have so little regard for steve, our host, why do you incessantly post on his blog???
    in POA’s own words:
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001794.php
    “Okay….my rant is over. But hey, watching Fumento on C-Span this morning, it really struck home what deep shit our country is in. If this is the best our country can do, these Fumentos, these Liebermans, these Stollers and these Bush’s, these Clintons and these Clemons these Reids and these Warners, these Coulters these O’Reillys and these Moores and these Limbaughs, the Fox News these C-Spans and these CNNs……
    God help us.”

    Reply

  10. winnipeger says:

    i find it completely unbelievable that POA would lecture ANYONE on this blog about the content of their posts. he actually has the nerve to write that others:
    “have been responsible (for) the vast majority of the baiting and non-constructive rhetoric such as we see in the two posts above, as well as scattered throughout this blog.”
    If this isn’t the “pot calling the kettle black” than i have no idea what is!!!
    for those who forgot, here are the highlights directed at me from a SINGLE one of POA’s posts above:
    “empty-headed crap”
    “slimey little pissant”
    “shut the fuck up”
    “you little insect”
    “despicably irritating human gnat” (bad syntax!)
    “irritating and oderous horshit”
    “shove it where the sun don’t shine”
    and you accuse others of non-constructive rhetoric?!?!
    hypocritical? delusional? you must be kidding us all.
    practice what you preach, POA.

    Reply

  11. pauline says:

    US #1 in world weapons sales: War means major moolah for arms companies
    What’s that old saying, “Just follow the money”?
    http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1456.shtml

    Reply

  12. Robert Mac says:

    Perhaps it is time to Read Senator Graham’s book.
    9/11 hijackers linked to Saudis, book says
    Frank Davies
    Knight Ridder Newspapers
    Sept. 5, 2004 12:00 AM
    WASHINGTON – Two of the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers had a support network in the United States that included agents of the Saudi government, and the Bush administration and FBI blocked a congressional investigation into that relationship, Sen. Bob Graham wrote in a book to be released Tuesday.
    The discovery of the financial backing of the two hijackers “would draw a direct line between the terrorists and the government of Saudi Arabia, and trigger an attempted cover-up by the Bush administration,” the Florida Democrat wrote.
    And in Graham’s book, Intelligence Matters, obtained by the Miami Herald on Saturday, he makes clear that some details of that financial support from Saudi Arabia were in the 27 pages of the congressional inquiry’s final report that were blocked from release by the administration, despite the pleas of leaders of both parties on the House and Senate intelligence committees.
    Graham also revealed that Gen. Tommy Franks told him on Feb. 19, 2002, just four months after the invasion of Afghanistan, that many important resources – including the Predator drone aircraft crucial to the search for Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida leaders – were being shifted to prepare for a war against Iraq.
    Graham recalled this conversation at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa with Franks, then head of Central Command, who was “looking troubled”:
    “Senator, we are not engaged in a war in Afghanistan.”
    “Excuse me?” I asked.
    “Military and intelligence personnel are being redeployed to prepare for an action in Iraq,” he continued.
    Graham concluded: “Gen. Franks’ mission – which, as a good soldier, he was loyally carrying out – was being downgraded from a war to a manhunt.”
    Graham, who was chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee from June 2001 through the buildup to the Iraq war, voted against the war resolution in October 2002 because he saw Iraq as a diversion that would hinder the fight against al-Qaida terrorism.
    He oversaw the Sept. 11 investigation on Capitol Hill with Rep. Porter Goss, nominated last month to be the next CIA director.
    According to Graham, the FBI and the White House blocked efforts to investigate the extent of official Saudi connections to two hijackers.
    Graham wrote that the staff of the congressional inquiry concluded that two Saudis in the San Diego area, Omar al-Bayoumi and Osama Bassan, who gave significant financial support to two hijackers, were working for the Saudi government.
    Bayoumi received a monthly allowance from a contractor for Saudi Civil Aviation that jumped from $465 to $3,700 in March 2000, after he helped Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhdar – two of the Sept. 11 hijackers – find apartments and make contacts in San Diego, just before they began pilot training.
    When the staff tried to conduct interviews in that investigation, and with an FBI informer, Abdussattar Shaikh, who also helped the eventual hijackers, they were blocked by the FBI and the administration, Graham wrote.
    The administration and CIA also insisted that the details about the Saudi support network that benefited two hijackers be left out of the final congressional report, Graham complained.
    Bush had concluded that “a nation-state that had aided the terrorists should not be held publicly to account,” Graham wrote.
    “It was as if the president’s loyalty lay more with Saudi Arabia than with America’s safety.”
    Saudi officials have vociferously denied any ties to the hijackers or al-Qaida plots to attack the United States.
    Graham ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic presidential nomination and then decided not to seek re-election to the Senate this year.
    He has said he hopes his book will illuminate FBI and CIA failures in the war on terrorism, and he offers recommendations on ways to reform the intelligence community.

    Reply

  13. Pissed Off American says:

    Carroll, although Hagel is probably right, it sickens me that our nation is in the position of telling the citizens of a country…
    “We broke it, you fix it”.
    How many dead Iraqis now since 1991? Over a million??? 2 million??? 500,000 Iraqi kids from the sanctions alone. Thats a hell of a legacy for the Bush family, is it not?? Too bad that they can’t shoulder that legacy alone, but the terrible truth is that we, as Americans, share that horrible moral burden. And an entire world sees us shirking the wieght of that burden, and refusing to hold those responsible accountable.
    I never would have believed I could be so ashamed of our leaders, much less our whole nation.

    Reply

  14. Carroll says:

    Senator Hagel…Following is Senator Hagel’s op-ed letter/article in today’s, November 25, 2006, Washington Post titled:
    “Leaving Iraq, Honorably.
    There will be no victory or defeat for the United States in Iraq. These terms do not reflect the reality of what is going to happen there. The future of Iraq was always going to be determined by the Iraqis — not the Americans.
    Iraq is not a prize to be won or lost. It is part of the ongoing global struggle against instability, brutality, intolerance, extremism and terrorism. There will be no military victory or military solution for Iraq. Former secretary of state Henry Kissinger made this point last weekend.
    The time for more U.S. troops in Iraq has passed. We do not have more troops to send and, even if we did, they would not bring a resolution to Iraq. Militaries are built to fight and win wars, not bind together failing nations. We are once again learning a very hard lesson in foreign affairs: America cannot impose a democracy on any nation — regardless of our noble purpose.
    We have misunderstood, misread, misplanned and mismanaged our honorable intentions in Iraq with an arrogant self-delusion reminiscent of Vietnam. Honorable intentions are not policies and plans. Iraq belongs to the 25 million Iraqis who live there. They will decide their fate and form of government.
    It may take many years before there is a cohesive political center in Iraq. America’s options on this point have always been limited. There will be a new center of gravity in the Middle East that will include Iraq. That process began over the past few days with the Syrians and Iraqis restoring diplomatic relations after 20 years of having no formal communication.
    What does this tell us? It tells us that regional powers will fill regional vacuums, and they will move to work in their own self-interest — without the United States. This is the most encouraging set of actions for the Middle East in years. The Middle East is more combustible today than ever before, and until we are able to lead a renewal of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, mindless destruction and slaughter will continue in Lebanon, Israel and across the Middle East.
    We are a long way from a sustained peaceful resolution to the anarchy in Iraq. But this latest set of events is moving the Middle East in the only direction it can go with any hope of lasting progress and peace. The movement will be imperfect, stuttering and difficult.
    America finds itself in a dangerous and isolated position in the world. We are perceived as a nation at war with Muslims. Unfortunately, that perception is gaining credibility in the Muslim world and for many years will complicate America’s global credibility, purpose and leadership. This debilitating and dangerous perception must be reversed as the world seeks a new geopolitical, trade and economic center that will accommodate the interests of billions of people over the next 25 years. The world will continue to require realistic, clear-headed American leadership — not an American divine mission.
    The United States must begin planning for a phased troop withdrawal from Iraq. The cost of combat in Iraq in terms of American lives, dollars and world standing has been devastating. We’ve already spent more than $300 billion there to prosecute an almost four-year-old war and are still spending $8 billion per month. The United States has spent more than $500 billion on our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And our effort in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate, partly because we took our focus off the real terrorist threat, which was there, and not in Iraq.
    We are destroying our force structure, which took 30 years to build. We’ve been funding this war dishonestly, mainly through supplemental appropriations, which minimizes responsible congressional oversight and allows the administration to duck tough questions in defending its policies. Congress has abdicated its oversight responsibility in the past four years.
    It is not too late. The United States can still extricate itself honorably from an impending disaster in Iraq. The Baker-Hamilton commission gives the president a new opportunity to form a bipartisan consensus to get out of Iraq. If the president fails to build a bipartisan foundation for an exit strategy, America will pay a high price for this blunder — one that we will have difficulty recovering from in the years ahead.
    To squander this moment would be to squander future possibilities for the Middle East and the world. That is what is at stake over the next few months.
    >>>>>>>
    I see it exactly as Hagel does, in fact he is the only person who reflects any common sense or grasp of what our foreign policy should be. I hope he run for president.

    Reply

  15. Carroll says:

    Before this thread passes on I wanted to leave this for those interested in how all this started way before 911. The article below by Leon Hadar is one of the ones I read several years ago when trying to educated myself on exactly what was going on with the US attitude on the ME. Every now and then I reread it to see how many events have transpired exactly as Hadar outlined if the US involved itself in the ME. The section on the benefitaries of any US involvement and all the interest at play in the ME is of particular interest…and if you want to be honest you can read this and compare it to what has gone on and see how America has outsmarted itself and why we are now on the sh** end of the stick.
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-177.html
    Cato Policy Analysis No. 177 August 27, 1992
    The “Green Peril”:
    Creating the Islamic Fundamentalist Threat
    by Leon T. Hadar
    Hadar also has a blog here:
    http://globalparadigms.blogspot.com/
    And his opinion as of Nov 14 was that Israel has about a 2 month window of opportunity to attack Iran. He bases that on the fact that Baker is due to issue his report shorlty after the first of the year and is expected to recommend engagement with Iran as a means of helping us out of Iraq.

    Reply

  16. Carroll says:

    Oh dear me…I just noticed up thread that I also failed to capitalize “american” in a comment.
    So I guess in addition to being an non capitalizing anti-semite and racist, I am also anti-america and anti-gentile,black,asian,mexican and every other race that makes up america.
    This has become so ridicuoous it is actually funny…notice that I am also anti-spelling.

    Reply

  17. Pissed Off American says:

    One fact that the public should really know is that in an assessment from before 9/11, Iraq was not even on the CIA list of countries which supported Al Qaeda.
    Posted by Marky
    Hmmmm, along those same lines, 9/11 is not listed as one of Bin Laden’s crimes on the FBI website, either.

    Reply

  18. Pissed Off American says:

    OMG, you mean the fact that I mispelled Feingold’s name in my initial post DOESN’T mean I’m a racist???
    Harriet, quick, cancel my appointment at the Birnbaum Institute of Cultural Sensitivity.

    Reply

  19. ... says:

    actually that is a new one on me… you are a racist if you fail to capitalize it.. i never use capitals, so i am a raging racist, lol.. great logic..

    Reply

  20. .... says:

    good point don and something that seems to happen often.. the racist label seems to come out when someone doesn’t agree with anothers viewpoint quite often.. perhaps the idea is to shut down discussion..

    Reply

  21. DonS says:

    BTW, Larry, I, as a Jew, take your point about being on guard against racism, however, i think its more of a red herring to distract from legitimate issues related to AIPAC money and influence. Simply because you have stated certain of your standards does not qualify to attribute usage by others as in any way signifiying racism. One who despises anit-semitism, or any prejudice, must be on guard not to gratuitously play the race card his/herself.

    Reply

  22. Marky says:

    One fact that the public should really know is that in an assessment from before 9/11, Iraq was not even on the CIA list of countries which supported Al Qaeda.

    Reply

  23. DonS says:

    “Tone down the rhetoric and let’s wait to see if our government will set in motion the wheels of justice against our very own strongly suspected to be guilty of the highest crimes against humanity. Keep cool, for now.”
    Good sentiment, and I think there is enough rectitude and outrage on this board not to require the added fuel of over heated rhetoric (why is it that those defending the “conventional” points of view often get to use the condescending high road of sangfroid???)
    Anyway, maybe off topic maybe not, a quote I just read from Ron Suskind’s “One Percent Doctrine”:
    [in relation to the Administration hiding the fact, widely verified in the intelligence community, that al Quaeda may not have been planning a follow up attack on american soil — lack of caps noted — prior to the ’04 election, vis a vis the administration taking credit for deterrence]. . . “This meant that the dictates of ‘information warfare’ that apply to an enemy in combat would also apply on the U.S mainland, even though it was now democracy’s quadrennial oppportunity for citizens to assess the conduct of their leaders. The American public had no more right to know the government’s intentions than a mid-rung al Qaeda lieutenant. If all that happened to benefit those in power,so be it” (p. 305)

    Reply

  24. Ella G says:

    I think it would be beneficial to all of our souls here to only ask that Bush suffer life imprisonment for lying us into war. Any punishment beyond that, although just and extremely memorable for eternity as an example, will only be to our nation’s disadvantage in the short run, and we don’t need any further inflamation of the domestic situation. So let’s show some mercy and settle together upon a life sentence instead of capital punishment how ever appropriate the latter may be. Tone down the rhetoric and let’s wait to see if our government will set in motion the wheels of justice against our very own strongly suspected to be guilty of the highest crimes against humanity. Keep cool, for now.

    Reply

  25. larry birnbaum says:

    There are lots of out-of-control comments above, conveying little content beyond the fact that the poster is very worked up.
    I’ll simply make a small point for the information of any non-Jews reading this thread. Carroll has been informed that the words “Jew” and “Jewish” are capitalized, and that the repeated failure to capitalize them would be read by a Jewish person as disrespectful and demeaning. Carroll has continued with the practice of failing to capitalize these words. That is, he/she is referring to another religious or ethnic group in a way that is intended to be derogatory. There is a word for that kind of behavior. It’s called racism.

    Reply

  26. Carroll says:

    Posted by Pissed Off American at November 26, 2006 06:22 PM
    >>>>>
    That is their goal of course. Now, join me in not responding to a single one of their post. Trust me, that is the way to deny them what they want most.

    Reply

  27. Phuckinass Whole says:

    Hardy Har, Robert. Me thinks you wish to argufy? Step to it, Poppy! I’ll cram the entire, yet-to-be indicted, Executive branch up your puckered derriere.
    …and if the Jackboots kick your door down soon, don’t worry, it ain’t me, it’s the Secret Service.
    P.S I hate Bush more than you hate Bush, so there.

    Reply

  28. Pissed Off American says:

    It is obvious, from the two comments immediately above this one, that there is an active effort to irritate Steve into discontinuing the “comments section” on this blog. This has been an ongoing effort, by one or two posters, using multiple screen names, for some time now.
    The continued harrassment of both Carroll and I by the same individual illustrates perfectly their intent to insidiously influence Steve’s willingness to maintain this blog by a steady and unrelenting campaign of baiting and ad hominem attack.
    One hopes, when Steve considers his options, that he does not succumb to the wishes of a small cabal of internet trolls whose only purpose in posting here is to silence a forum that is largely unsympathetic and unsatisfied with the current course of our nation.
    If I was to make a suggestion to Steve in regards to this issue, it would be for him to consult with his techies and verify my suspicion that it is one or two individuals, posting under multiple screen names, that have been responsible the vast majority of the baiting and non-constructive rhetoric such as we see in the two posts above, as well as scattered throughout this blog.

    Reply

  29. Carroll says:

    Posted by Robert at November 26, 2006 04:20 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>
    If you don’t mind I will add the link to the full interview of Jordan’s King Abdullah..because it really is important. I am sure Abdullah’s main concern is the effect on his own kingdom….but all the other ME potentates are warning of the same thing.
    There seems to be more “urgency” in their warnings now than before, so I expect they have their fingers on the pulse of what is happening even more so than the US.
    http://www.abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story?id=2679914&page=2

    Reply

  30. dawn says:

    Hey, c’mon now, we don’t have to get nasty personal when discussing about what kind of justice should be meted out to this administration for their crimes. Let’s just discuss the evidence and how the perps should be dealt with without slinging around four-lettered words that detracts from serious contemplation of how we Americans need to react to having been duped into shedding unnecessary blood. Let’s demand justice in a civil manner, and Steve will allow our discussion to go on and flourish, but if it is your goal to shut down these valuable comments section then keep on cursing and being vile to one another. Peace. Out.

    Reply

  31. Robert Noonan says:

    Phuckinass, in your ass is where we’re gonna shove your War Criminal President Bushit’s head after it pops off from mis-calculating the drop from the scaffold. Justice for Bush and your traitorous pussified ass, Phuckinass.

    Reply

  32. Phuckinass Whole says:

    What a motley friggen’ crew! We have here one of the pathetic results of the information age; a bunch of know-little, idiots spewing bullshit under the deep cover of aliases. “Pissed Off American?!” Are you serious?! I’d be pissed off also if I spent all weekend posting comments on someone elses blog! Don’t you have a family or friends? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than lecture a bunch of people who seem to hate your guts?
    If I was Mr. Clemmons, I’d disable the entire comments section. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by reading this horseshit. Although, I’m sure that the “Pissed Off American” will have 13 more comments about how he alone knows the score.
    Let me save you the trouble. Go fuck yourself and keep the change.

    Reply

  33. Pissed Off American says:

    Ah yes, a “final solution” to the “muslim problem”. Hitler would be proud. A wink and a nod to Saddam when he made known his intentions to attack Kuwait known….a bombing campaign that effectively destroyed Iraq’s infrastructure and capability to develop WMDs……..a decade of debilitating sanctions that are purported to have killed 500,000 Iraqi children……an attack on our homeland that within hours was sold to the American people as an act endorsed and supported by Saddam Hussein…….a carefully marketed demonization of Muslim society through talk of “evil doers”…..a trumped up rationale for war, marketed through the fears and shock of a citizenry that had just watched the media event of the century, the collapse of the Twin Towers…..a campaign designed to demonize and ostracize as “unpatriotic” any who question the official story about 9/11, and the fabricated intelligence surrounding the invasion of Iraq……a steady erosion of privacy laws and the right to due process and legal representation…..torture policies implemented, exposed, condoned, legalized, then denied…….
    …..must I continue this list? How long before we, as a people wake up to the fact we have been terrorized, lied to, used, demonized, victimized, and murdered by our own government? In many ways, but most especially by the actions of this Administration leading up to, during, and after the events of 9/11.
    Is it possible that chaos in the middle east is the goal??? Does a bear shit in the woods?

    Reply

  34. Robert says:

    Perhaps Wolfowitz & NeoCons’ Objective Was To Foment INTER-ISLAMIC CIVIL WAR?
    The International News/ http://www.thenews.com.pk
    [Middle East facing three civil wars, not just Iraq: Abdullah
    WASHINGTON: Jordan’s King Abdullah II warned Sunday that the violence in Iraq is but one of three brewing civil wars in the Middle East.
    “The difficulty that we’re tackling with here is … the strong potential of three civil wars in the region, whether it’s the Palestinians, that of Lebanon or of Iraq,” he said while talking to a television channel.
    Abdullah spoke ahead of a meeting in Jordan this week between US President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki to discuss Iraqi authorities taking more control over security amid a sharp rise in Shiite-Sunni violence.
    But the Jordanian king said the Iraq conflict is just one of three raging in the region, and in his view, not even the most pressing one.
    “When it comes to things exploding out of control, I would put today, as we stand, Palestine in probably a close tie with Lebanon,” he said.
    “Iraq, funny enough — although as concerned as I am with Iraq and the major problems that that might bring to us — is in third position. Obviously, this is all relative,” he said.
    He added that the conflicts cannot be separated one from another, but must be tackled as part of a “total picture.”
    “It’s not just one issue by itself. I keep saying Palestine is the core. It is linked to the extent of what’s going on in Iraq. It is linked to what’s going on in Lebanon. It is linked to the issues that we find ourselves with the Syrians. So, if you want to do comprehensive — comprehensive means bringing all the parties of the region together.”
    Abdullah said urgent change was needed in Iraq, sooner rather than later.]
    With “Dubya”, VP Cheny, and NeoConservatives like Richard Perel and Kenneth Adleman still Smiling “STAY ON The Course” and “Only Unhappy With Implementation”;
    Did Expert Professor Dr Paul Wolfowitz and “Program For New American Century” Co-Conspirators – OBTAIN WHAT THEY REALLY WANTED:
    AN ISLAMIC WAR BETWEEN Muslim SECTS… Spreading Throughout Mid East… Keeping ISRAEL’s Enemies Busy Killing Themselves, and Israel Safely OUT of WAR?

    Reply

  35. Matthew says:

    Steve’s concern about a diminished appetite for foreign intervention is a result of cynicism from the White House. You don’t declare a war of civilizations and then cut taxes for the rich and ask the rest of the nation to go shopping. The downplaying of the difficulties we were going to face in Afghanistan, for example, is a problem with Bush’s leadership style not a lack of American endurance.
    The difference between Churchill and the neo-con Churchill wanna be’s is that Churchill actually went to the front after the Gallipoli disaster. Why haven’t Richard Perle, Curt Hanson, and Dick Cheney volunteered to patrol Sadr City? You just know that Churchill would have had nothing but contempt for these guys….

    Reply

  36. Pissed Off American says:

    What are they afraid of?
    http://www.antiwar.com/edmonds/

    Reply

  37. Easy E says:

    LET’S GET ON WITH IT NOW:
    1. Investigate the crimes.
    2. Subpoena the witnesses.
    3. Prosecute ALL perpetrators (all the way up the food chain—Bush/Cheney, MSM, corporate institutions notwithstanding).
    4. Adjudicate accordingly.
    The process will be resisted because many of members of Congress from both sides of the aisle have been complicit in BushCo crimes. Vote those out who don’t get onboard immediately. It’s time for the people to recapture their Constitution.

    Reply

  38. Pissed Off American says:

    Here is a beginning. If you believe, as I do, that it is time to hold our representatives accountable, than it is your duty to notify Leahy and DEMAND that he follow through on his pursuit of these documents. And if these documents contain evidence of unconstitutional abuse of executive power, than it is HIS duty to pursue impeachment, indictment, and procedings against the perpetrators of those crimes, be they a lowly clerk, or the President of the United States……
    November 24, 2006
    Senate Democrats Revive Demand for Classified Data
    By DAVID JOHNSTON
    WASHINGTON, Nov. 23 — Seeking information about detention of terrorism suspects, abuse of detainees and government secrecy, Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee are reviving dozens of demands for classified documents that until now have been rebuffed or ignored by the Justice Department and other agencies.
    “I expect real answers, or we’ll have testimony under oath until we get them,” Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, who will head the committee beginning in January, said in an interview this week. “We’re entitled to know these answers, and in many instances we don’t get them because people are hiding their mistakes. And that’s no excuse.”
    continues at…….
    http://tinyurl.com/ufnnd

    Reply

  39. Pissed Off American says:

    “I think America should absolve itself by executing its War Criminals so as to be able to start anew with a clean slate and a clear conscience. Restore your beacon of justice, your shining city on the hill. The world will be better for it, as Truth, Justice and the American Way will no longer be a big joke if you do what needs to be done for the good of all humankind. Make an example.”
    Posted by St. Just
    Executing them? Shit, we can’t even get our incoming “representatives” to launch morally mandated investigations, much less “executions”.
    The order of the day should be…
    Investigate, indict, try, convict, and punish.
    The amazing part here is that this fantasy, this charade, still lays out as if Americans did not already know the truth. Is there really any Washington insider, or Washington politician, left or right, that does not KNOW that this Administration decieved the American people by using faulty, fabricated, dubious, and “cooked” intelligence to engage this nation in war? Does anyone really believe that the majority of Americans are unaware that they were purposely lied to by the Bush Administration? For Christ’s sake, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people have DIED as a result of those lies. Lies that WE ALL KNOW WERE LIES. Is there anyone that has followed the “progress” of the Phase Two report that thinks there is not an active campaign, STILL ONGOING, to hide these lies from the American people?
    The entire world community knows the nature of the crimes that have been committed by this Administration. They are watching us. They have seen our leaders fabricate and twist intelligence. They have seen our leaders launch this debacle in Iraq, founded on lies and duplicitous alliances with thieves and liars such as Chalabi. They have seen our leaders advocate, condone, and engage in the torture of prisoners in our custody. They have seen our leaders endorse and support Israel as it clusterbombed a civilian population in Lebanon. They have seen our leaders abandon an American city and its populace to ruin.
    And they have seen a nation that holds its leaders above and beyond the reach of the law. A nation, a people, that does not DEMAND accountability from its sham “representatives”, who are KNOWN liars and criminals.
    And here we have an incoming Congress that is IGNORING the voice of the people, IGNORING the message sent by this unprecedented landslide of opinion, expressed in our vote. Why are they ignoring our voices? How deep is their complicity in the crimes of the last six years? Who do these cowards and abettors claim to represent?
    If we do not hold this administration accountable for the crimes of the last six years, the lies, the war, the tortures, the renditions, the cronyism, the violations of privacy, the abuse of power, the missing and squandered billions, the uncontested no-bid contracts, the discarding of sound science, the electoral frauds……….
    Than we are NOTHING. Than this IS NOT a nation of laws. NOT a democracy, NOT a representative government.
    And the whole world knows it.

    Reply

  40. Izzy says:

    The best thing that can happen for humankind is that the Vietnam Syndrome redoubles as the Iraq Syndrome and the most powerful country in the world with their most stupid people, who elect regularly equally stupid/Evil administrations, stays in their own country out of fear of putting their stupidity on display again for all to see. Go fight amongst yourselves, have your own civil war, get out yer guns and kill each other until sense is beaten into your thick skulls, but don’t bother other people again, they have enough troubles without y’all messing them over !

    Reply

  41. St. Just says:

    I think America should absolve itself by executing its War Criminals so as to be able to start anew with a clean slate and a clear conscience. Restore your beacon of justice, your shining city on the hill. The world will be better for it, as Truth, Justice and the American Way will no longer be a big joke if you do what needs to be done for the good of all humankind. Make an example.

    Reply

  42. Pissed Off American says:

    “I mean, if this is not civil war, where there is, on average, 40 to 50 tortured, mutilated, executed bodies showing up on the capital streets each morning, where we have thousands of unaccounted for dead bodies mounting up every month, and where the list of those who have simply disappeared for the sake of the fact that they have the wrong name, a name that is either Sunni or Shia, so much so that we have people getting dual identity cards, where parents cannot send their children to school, because they have to cross a sectarian line, then, goodness, me, I don’t want to see what a civil war looks like either if this isn’t one.”
    Carroll, this is Bushworld. You have not described “civil war”, you have just described an “insurgency in its last throes”.
    “God told me to strike at al-Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.”….George W. Bush

    Reply

  43. Pissed Off American says:

    “My question to POA is this, why not steer our my attentions to folks or institutions that you think are going in the right direction that are going to improve our standing in the world and perhaps lesson the severe corruption and polarization that infects our government.”
    You must not be reading my posts. How many times have I pointed to Conyers, Kucinich, Bev Harris and her website? Peace Now is a group I just pointed out. I have in the past referenced a couple of different organizations devoted to impeachment and accountability. I have mentioned here, more than once, anti-war veterans groups. There are groups devoted to finding the trruth about 9/11 that I have mentioned, Sibel Edmond’s and Cindy Sheehan’s grass roots efforts have been mentioned by me.
    There are PLENTY of individuals, groups, organizatiions, and institutions seeking to change this nation’s course. Trouble is, people are distrustful, disengaged, frustrated, and afraid.
    I have long maintained that this government is preparing for a period of mass dissension and civil unrest. This government recognizes that they cannot maintain this charade of “representative government” for much longer. The people are awakening.
    I see now that they are going to conduct a military “test” of drone aircraft by flying them, in quantity, over our homeland.
    We’re in deep shit.

    Reply

  44. marky says:

    Carroll
    save your fantasies of my life and your fantasies of ripping the intestines out of Jews for your personal pleasure. You are WAY off in all aspects of your “analysis”.
    By the way, the problem with POA, as I see it, is being consistently way off topic, plus being rude. Many things he says are interesting, which I certainly cannot say about Carroll.

    Reply

  45. Carroll says:

    And since Iraq is the real topic here…I interrupt the children to announce that Iraq has offically been declared Hell…along with Gaza, the West Bank, probably Lebanon next and down the road a lot of other ME countries. And all for the delusions and lust for power of a cabal of lunatics.
    Michael Ware on CNN last night.
    MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, firstly, let me say, perhaps it’s easier to deny that this is a civil war, when essentially you live in the most heavily fortified place in the country within the Green Zone, which is true of both the prime minister, the national security adviser for Iraq and, of course, the top U.S. military commanders. However, for the people living on the streets, for Iraqis in their homes, if this is not civil war, or a form of it, then they do not want to see what one really looks like.
    This is what we’re talking about. We’re talking about Sunni neighborhoods shelling Shia neighborhoods, and Shia neighborhoods shelling back.
    We’re having Sunni communities dig fighting positions to protect their streets. We’re seeing Sunni extremists plunging car bombs into heavily-populated Shia marketplaces. We’re seeing institutionalized Shia death squads in legitimate police and national police commando uniforms going in, systematically, to Sunni homes in the middle of the night and dragging them out, never to be seen again.
    I mean, if this is not civil war, where there is, on average, 40 to 50 tortured, mutilated, executed bodies showing up on the capital streets each morning, where we have thousands of unaccounted for dead bodies mounting up every month, and where the list of those who have simply disappeared for the sake of the fact that they have the wrong name, a name that is either Sunni or Shia, so much so that we have people getting dual identity cards, where parents cannot send their children to school, because they have to cross a sectarian line, then, goodness, me, I don’t want to see what a civil war looks like either if this isn’t one.”
    BTW..115 Iraqis and 2 americans died on Thanksgiving day in Iraq.

    Reply

  46. ... says:

    Posted by … at November 25, 2006 12:18 PM
    i see someone is using my pysuedynm to trash poa.. one thing you forget, is i never use capitals and you do, lol.. so if you really want to make like me, keep that in mind next time..
    i agree with poa and find his contributions here of real value. i don’t know why he wastes time on some of you either..
    thanks for your comments poa.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    Posted by larry birnbaum at November 25, 2006 07:08 PM
    >>>>>>>
    BTW…I do believe birnbaum is a ME terrier activist posing as an american jew to make jews look bad…along with winnipeger, he is the worst advertisement of jewishness I have seen. It has to be on purpose, no one could be that dumb.

    Reply

  48. Carroll says:

    POA…
    winnipeger, as I have said before is most likley a high school of college age student and jewish activist…also more than likely Marky is his roommate or fellow student dem activist.
    Back when I was a volunteer moderator on an AOL board we had a rash of this type of college boy posters that traveled in packs and disrupted the boards during the Bosnia invasion…I recongize the same immature intellect in the winnipeger and markey comments.
    IGNORE them…all they want is attention. You
    can gage Markey’s age level by the whinning he does when no one is responding to anything he has to say. No one else comments back to them on anything except you and that is why they keep esculating their harrassment of you, so you will pay attention to them. To have them understand anything you are pointing out you are gonna have to give them another 20 years to grow up first…so save your breath

    Reply

  49. Marky says:

    Off topic but I think important: how does Russia’s apparent transformation back into a totalitarian state affect the prognosis in Iraq?
    Reading of the horrific poisoning of the Putin critic in London, which followed the recent murder of the female reporter in Moscow, I wonder if Putin will become a supporter of anti-US terrorism—if he has not done so already.
    Perhaps he has no reason to.. yet.

    Reply

  50. winnipeger says:

    The truth hurts, huh, POA? :)
    the bottom line is that you called Steve clemmons (our host) out as bad guy, lumping him in with “coulter, o’reilly, bush and limbaugh.” i simply do not understand why you’d want to stick around day after day after day after day…
    and thanks for this brilliant discourse:
    “empty-headed crap”
    “slimey little pissant”
    “shut the fuck up”
    “you little insect”
    “despicably irritating human gnat” (bad syntax!)
    “irritating and oderous horshit”
    “shove it where the sun don’t shine”
    All in one post?! you always raise the bar, POA!
    thanks for embodying the ideals of constructive dialogue and healing thought. surely, the world is better off for your advocacy (please read with biting sarcasm).

    Reply

  51. Pissed Off American says:

    POA:
    are you going to answer the question i asked above?
    why do you spend every day on steve’s blog if you have so little respect for him?
    Posted by winnipger
    I do not have to respect all of Steve’s opinions to post here, nor does he have to respect all of my opinions to allow me to post here. Steve understands that I do not agree with many of his standpoints and opinions, and we have discussed it both here and via email. He doesn’t agree with many of mine as well, both in context, and in delivery. I suspect Steve would not want a blog if the posters were a bunch of sacharin synchophants. I don’t assume he much enjoys your empty-headed crap either.
    Now, you slimey little pissant, care to explain to this blog what business it is of yours? Are you now the administrator here, do you decide Steve’s posting criteria for him? Why don’t you just STFU, winnipeger? I see you have typically ommitted the part of that post where I state that I consider this blog “one of the better ones”. To be bluntly honest, you little insect, you have shown yourself to be a despicably irritating characterless human gnat. You have done NOTHING but harrass Carroll and I for some time now, and you have consistently brought NOTHING to the table other than that harrassment.
    So, just like the comment I directed at Marky…
    I was commenting on Feingolds statement about the issue of impeachment, and my strong dissatisfaction with his position. If you want to debate that with me, fine. But otherwise take your irritrating and odorous horseshit and shove it where the sun don’t shine.

    Reply

  52. Greg Hunter says:

    I will try to get back on point. If memory serves me, the US won the First Gulf War and that one still produced Tim McVeigh. I am, and have been, fearful of the domestic terrorism that will result when the some of the Iraq veterans get fed up with the BS that passes as policy in America.
    Collateral Damage…

    Reply

  53. winnipger says:

    POA:
    are you going to answer the question i asked above?
    why do you spend every day on steve’s blog if you have so little respect for him?

    Reply

  54. Pissed Off American says:

    “POA, aren’t you going to accuse me of being marky also?”
    Posted by winnipeger
    No, Marky has both an ass AND a brain.

    Reply

  55. Pissed Off American says:

    “POA, I can’t imagine why you WOULDN’T want to start a blog. You have LOTS to say; a boundless confidence that your thoughts are worth reading; in addition, you read a lot of sources most people won’t normally see. You have enough content for a blog.
    There’s no reason you shouldn’t start a blog.. unless, that is, you’re a mewling coward who doesn’t have the confidence that people will read his opinions unless his comments ride coattail on another blog.”
    ROFLMAO!!!!! Gee Marky, who would think you would couch insult in insincere compliment? Thats not slimey at all, is it?
    I don’t want my own blog, Marky. As you can tell by my spelling and my vocabulary I am not proficient on a keyboard. I type, literally, with one finger. I never took typing, and am too set in my ways to learn. My computer skills are virtually non-existent. A blog is not something I want to pursue.
    BTW Marky, I would be very careful about posting the kind of insincere hogwash you just posted above. It is a window into your character, and you just exposed a part of it that you might have been better off continuing to conceal. I gotta say, it is one of the slimiest posts I have seen in a while.
    Marky, you don’t like my posting? Don’t read it. You want to credibly decry my rudeness? Than decry the rudeness of assholes such as winnipeger as well. Otherwise you are showing yourself to be just another biased buffoon looking for excuses to attack the poster rather than the idea or opinion expressed by the poster.
    I was talking about Feingold. You rebutted by talking about me.
    You disagree with me about Feingold? Great, lets debate it. Otherwise, go to hell.

    Reply

  56. winnipeger says:

    marky is right POA. check out: http://www.blogger.com
    the crazy thing is that POA can’t seem to stop himself from participating in a forum created by someone who he claims to NOT respect! must be a masochist… or a mewling coward.
    in his own words:
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001794.php
    “Okay….my rant is over. But hey, watching Fumento on C-Span this morning, it really struck home what deep shit our country is in. If this is the best our country can do, these Fumentos, these Liebermans, these Stollers and these Bush’s, these Clintons and these Clemons these Reids and these Warners, these Coulters these O’Reillys and these Moores and these Limbaughs, the Fox News these C-Spans and these CNNs……
    God help us.
    Posted by: Pissed Off American at November 24, 2006 11:23 AM”
    so help us, POA. do the right thing; put up or shut up.

    Reply

  57. Marky says:

    Last comment on this subject:
    POA, I can’t imagine why you WOULDN’T want to start a blog. You have LOTS to say; a boundless confidence that your thoughts are worth reading; in addition, you read a lot of sources most people won’t normally see. You have enough content for a blog.
    There’s no reason you shouldn’t start a blog.. unless, that is, you’re a mewling coward who doesn’t have the confidence that people will read his opinions unless his comments ride coattail on another blog.

    Reply

  58. Pissed Off American says:

    “Furthermore, there is a world of difference between saying that the President has probably committed impeachable acts, but not having carried out the investigation to ascertain this fact, as opposed to investigating first and then
    determining that impeachment is the best course.”
    Golly Marky, you don’t say? Gee, you mean an investigation might find out that Bush lied us into war? Gee, wouldn’t THAT be a shocker.
    (Where IS that pesky Phase Two report, Marky?)
    Now, you wanna show me where Feingold is advocating investigations? Its not like theres any “smoking guns”, is it? I mean, hey, the Downing Street Memo is old news, huh? No sense dredging up any politically uncomfortable facts.
    Look, Marky, the fact that these people aren’t CLAMORING for investigations is a sad statement. And it is SHEEP like yourself that are going to ALLOW this government to get away with the crimes of the last six years. We should be DEMANDING that our representatives seek accountability for this clusterfuck in Iraq, for rendition policies, for torture, for New Orleans, for illegal wiretaps, for electoral FRAUD, and much much more. But until we make those demands, these Washington politicos are just going to be the same corrupt opportunistic criminal lying sack of shit non-representative money grubbing hacks we have ALLOWED them to be for FAR TOO LONG.
    If Feingold believes Bush has committed impeachable offenses, that it is HIS PATRIOTIC DUTY to pursue accountability. And YES, if he fails to do so, than he is a coward.

    Reply

  59. winnipeger says:

    POA, aren’t you going to accuse me of being marky also?

    Reply

  60. Pissed Off American says:

    On the contrary, Marky, it is YOU that seems to want to dictate the content and tone here. Perhaps YOU should start your own blog.

    Reply

  61. Marky says:

    Actually, POA,
    your unwavering rudeness is an obstacle to people taking you seriously.
    I think Feingold explains himself quite clearly in the article you reference:
    “I don’t support impeachment, and I don’t support impeachment hearings, even though I think the president has probably committed an impeachable offense,” Feingold said in response to a question from Al Schulz of La Crosse.
    “We are not required to impeach the president simply because he’s committed an impeachable offense, which I think he did with the illegal wiretapping. We have to decide whether it’s in the best interest of the country to go through that process”
    —-
    Impeachment is a choice, not mandatory.
    Furthermore, there is a world of difference between saying that the President has probably committed impeachable acts, but not having carried out the investigation to ascertain this fact, as opposed to investigating first and then
    determining that impeachment is the best course.
    Throwing a temper tantrum when one of the best elected representatives in the country does not agree with you 100% is jejune.
    I repeat: you have some worthwhile observations, POA. It’s time to start your own blog.

    Reply

  62. Pissed Off American says:

    Gosh Marky, glad to have given you such mirth. Now tewll me Marky, how do you feel about the incomning Congress IGNORING impeachable crimes? You don’t find that cowardly, eh? I guess, in your “business as usual” ovine mind that its OK to murder a few hundred thousand people by LYING a nation into war. Fuck accountability, right? I mean after all, these posturing corrupt bastards in Washington might just jeapordize a lobby dollar or two if they stand up for American tenets and ideals. God forbid they actually represent respect, or carry out the will of the people, right Marky? What the hgell, whats the big deal? Feingold believes Bush committed impeachable crimes, but he ain’t gointg to do a damned thing about it, Yep, you’re right, Marky, that takes guts, by golly.
    And you want to call me a blowhard, you ewe? If those such as Feingold, who RECOGNIZE and ADMIT Bush admitted impeachable crimes won’t hold him accountable, THAN WHO WILL?
    Shove it, Marky, your complacency about our current situation is part of the PROBLEM, not part of the solution. Keep it up you damned fool, they’re about to shear your wool.

    Reply

  63. winnipeger says:

    Oh really? Jetting off to the Congo again, or are you going to a “Peace Now” party?
    Posted by: Pissed Off American at November 25, 2006 07:21 PM
    are you now trying to insinuate that larry and i are the same person?? GET A GRIP!!! and what the f%$k is this repeated shit about the congo???
    you really should quit with the sherlock holmes crap and stick to the issues. it’s foolish… and more than a bit scary.
    and you still haven’t answered my question from an earlier thread: if you have so little regard for steve, our host, why do you incessantly post on his blog???

    Reply

  64. Marky says:

    HAHAHA
    For an anonymous blowhard on a blog to call Sen. Russ Feingold of all people a “mewling coward”
    gave me a big belly laugh.

    Reply

  65. Pissed Off American says:

    “Angry one, it would be appropriate and respectful to spell Senator Feingold’s name correctly.”
    Gosh, I musta missed somethin’. Did the tone of my post sound like I “respect” Feingold? When the mewling coward acts on his belief that Bush has committed impeachable crimes, then maybe I will have some respect for him. But until then, he is just another Washington politico shitting on everything this nation once stood for.
    And if you want to bicker about “appropriateness”, you might want to take a hard look at your asinine insinuation that my post was “anti-semitic”.

    Reply

  66. Pissed Off American says:

    But, I’m done with you guys for the time being.
    Posted by larry birnbaum
    Oh really? Jetting off to the Congo again, or are you going to a “Peace Now” party?

    Reply

  67. larry birnbaum says:

    The notion that Carroll and “Angry American” have that others, and not they, are prone to injecting the Jews into every possible issue — this one, for example — is sad but unsurprising.
    Angry one, it would be appropriate and respectful to spell Senator Feingold’s name correctly.
    Carroll, “Jew,” like “Christian” and “Muslim,” is a capitalized word in English.
    Unless, of course, the intent is to be disrespectful and demeaning.
    But, I’m done with you guys for the time being.

    Reply

  68. Marky says:

    Any Congressman who advocates impeachment without investigations first is irresponsible.
    Most likely, the planned investigations into
    the Bush administration will uncover numerous impeachable offenses; at the point, Feingold’s statement will become moot.
    On the other hand, I fully support calls for impeachment from outside Congress, especially if a senior Republican or two would join in.

    Reply

  69. ptb says:

    Steve and All,
    This is a great blog and I have learned much and found many informative links etc. from the posters here. Truth is POA contributes a lot of good info with perhaps too much emphasis and anger to be very productive. It’s hard to get people convinced of your truth when you continually piss them off too. That said POA is a big reason I read this blog he makes me think.
    My question to POA is this, why not steer our my attentions to folks or institutions that you think are going in the right direction that are going to improve our standing in the world and perhaps lesson the severe corruption and polarization that infects our government.
    I agree with POA in principal as far as all should live equally by the rule of law president to average Joe but I think the current political situation begs for a different solution than the continuation of wasting resources on hearings etc. when the work of the people has been so neglected for 6 years.
    “where there was wrong we brought the spirit of forgiveness”
    PTB

    Reply

  70. karenk says:

    Yes Iraq will have consequences for the American psyche- we messed up again. We didn’t learn from our mistakes and remember the lesson. That’s the real tragedy. What we need to do now that we have shaken the governing powers up a little is pull a Madonna-REINVENT OURSELVES to the world. That’s the best part of being a relatively young culture(compared to the ME) We have to reclaim our sense of being unique, innovative, and focus on the great things about America/American exceptionalism for which we have always been a beacon for the world. I’ll leave it to the smarter folks to figure the details…

    Reply

  71. Carroll says:

    It’s hard to argue someone out of a neurotic projection. Angry person, of course “Fiengold’s [sic] religion” or his “seemingly jewish [sic] name” never entered your conscious thoughts. Only you can figure out why he — someone who has fought hard against the imbecility and mendacity of this administration — is the person you decided to get so angry at as to call him “this fucker.” Or why you misspelled his name repeatedly. Or why you fail to capitalize the words “Jew” and “Jewish.”
    It will take work. But first, you have to recognize that the question isn’t why Feingold’s religion didn’t enter your mind, but why he and his name did in the first place, in response to a post they bore no relationship to.
    Posted by larry birnbaum at November 25, 2006 11:37 AM
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    This is really ridiculous…POA calls out “everyone” who is a waffler, jew and gentile alike. Evidently the jewish part is in your mind only. Stop it, inserting the jews into every thread is boring and counterproductive. Get some therapy.

    Reply

  72. ... says:

    I believe it has been said before, by more than several contributors here, but I’ll echo the call:
    GET YOUR OWN BLOG, PISSED OFF ONE!
    Your never-ending, vile filibustering has gotten VERY old!

    Reply

  73. Pissed Off American says:

    Birnbaum, are you going to tell us if Fiengold has the right to pick and choose who obeys the letter of the law, or are you just going to keep up with this “anti-semite” horseshit?
    Are you now saying I cannot criticize Fiengold’s statements or actions, because he happens to be, irrelevantly, a jew? You are making an ass of yourself, Birnbaum.

    Reply

  74. larry birnbaum says:

    It’s hard to argue someone out of a neurotic projection. Angry person, of course “Fiengold’s [sic] religion” or his “seemingly jewish [sic] name” never entered your conscious thoughts. Only you can figure out why he — someone who has fought hard against the imbecility and mendacity of this administration — is the person you decided to get so angry at as to call him “this fucker.” Or why you misspelled his name repeatedly. Or why you fail to capitalize the words “Jew” and “Jewish.”
    It will take work. But first, you have to recognize that the question isn’t why Feingold’s religion didn’t enter your mind, but why he and his name did in the first place, in response to a post they bore no relationship to.

    Reply

  75. David N says:

    Some of the comparisons to Nazi Germany are all too apt. Remember, the Nazis as well as other fascists were voted into power by what was up to that point a democracy. Also remember, the fascists were the agents (or so they thought) of the corporate powers of that time.
    The irony is that even the wealthy are far better off in a liberal, regulated political and economic regime. If only we could break through their own monopoly on the media to tell them so.
    What’s connected is that the BushCo efforts to break the educational system are all part of the fascist agenda. An ignorant (even if not stupid) electorate is far easier to manipulate with fear.
    And, of course, there is the added hypocracy of BushCo campaigning in 2000 saying that Clinton abused and damaged the military by sending it onto Bosnia (where how many U.S. soldiers were killed?), and then breaking the military themselves after it demonstrated that Clinton’s management had in fact made it stronger and more capable.
    Another issue is the so-called Vietnam Syndrom. The lesson the military learned from Vietnam was not to get involved in insurgencies and “low-level conflict.” As a result, the Army was perfectly propared to win a stand-up battle with another regular army, and did. But aside from the horrible mistakes made by the political leadership in Iraq, the military was not prepared to face insurgency tactics, and so we got both sides of the conflict wrong.
    The U.S. military is not in Iraq to achieve victory and prevent chaos. We have already lost every one of our aims, and chaos and civil war are already in place. The only reason we’re still there is to protect Bush/Cheney’s ego.
    Declare defeat and go home. But that’s too reality-based for these guys.

    Reply

  76. Pissed Off American says:

    “[Angry] American” chooses to focus his ire on, of all people, “this fucker,” Senator Russ Feingold. I’m not even surprised by his choice of scapegoat at this point.
    Freud had a rather unfunny joke he used to tell:
    “The bicycle riders are coming! Beware, the bicycle riders are coming!”
    “Why the bicycle riders?”
    “Why the Jews?”
    Posted by larry birnbaum
    So tell us Birnbaum, what right does Fiengold have to pick and choose who is subject to the letter of the law?
    Or, of course, you can just try to bring jews into a thread that had ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF THEM. Listen, there are not many here that will read my initial post on this thread and buy into your insinuation that it is somehow “anti-semitic”.
    Are you seeking to replace winnipeger as this blog’s resident imbecile, since he got off the Congo Express and became a card carrying member of “Peace Now”?
    Listen, you damned fool, it is YOU that obviously made a connection with Fiengold’s seemingly jewish name, and my post. I can, with clear conscience, state that Fiengold’s religion never entered my mind as I was typing my thoughts. But here you are, spewing the same horseshit, over and over and over.
    You aren’t doing the jews any favors with this crap, Birnbaum. You are just proving this “anti-semitic” mantra to be the crock of shit many of us have stated it is when used in the manner you just used it. Wise up.

    Reply

  77. larry birnbaum says:

    “[Angry] American” chooses to focus his ire on, of all people, “this fucker,” Senator Russ Feingold. I’m not even surprised by his choice of scapegoat at this point.
    Freud had a rather unfunny joke he used to tell:
    “The bicycle riders are coming! Beware, the bicycle riders are coming!”
    “Why the bicycle riders?”
    “Why the Jews?”

    Reply

  78. Alex says:

    Howard Zinn on The Uses of History and the War on Terrorism ( http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/24/1442258 )
    A few excerpts:
    “And this psychologist took notes and, in fact, a couple of years after the war, wrote a book called Nuremberg Diary, in which he recorded — put his notes in that book, and he recorded his conversation with Hermann Göring. And he asked Göring, how come that Hitler, the Nazis were able to get the German people to go along with such absurd and ruinous policies of war and aggression?” And I happen to have those notes with me…”
    And Göring said, “Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war? But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy. The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. It works the same way in any country.”
    I was interested in that last line: “It works the same way in any country.” I mean, here, these are the Nazis. That’s the fascist regime. We are a democracy. But it works the same way in any country, whatever you call yourself. Whether you call yourself a totalitarian state or you call yourself a democracy, it works the same way, and that is, the leaders of the country are able to cajole or coerce and entice the people into war by scaring them, telling them they’re in danger, and threatening them and coercing them, that if they don’t go along, they will be considered unpatriotic.”

    “If the American people really knew history, if they learned history, if the educational institutions did their job, if the press did its job in giving people historical perspective, then a people would understand. When the President gets up before the microphone, says we must go to war for this or for that, for liberty or for democracy, or because we’re in danger, and so on, if people had some history behind them, they would know how many times presidents have announced to the nation, we must go to war for this reason or that reason. They would know that President Polk said, “Oh, we must go to war against Mexico, because, well, there was an incident that took place on the border there, and our honor demands that we go to war.”
    They would know, if they knew some history, how President McKinley took the nation into war against Spain and Cuba, saying, “Oh, we’re going in to liberate the Cubans from Spanish control.” And in fact, there was a little bit of truth to that: we did go in, we fought against Spain, we got Spain out of Cuba, we liberated them from Spain, but not from ourselves. And so, Spain was out, and United Fruit was in, and then the American banks and the American corporations were in.”

    “The people who go off to war are not doing fighting for their country. No, they’re not doing their country any good. They’re not doing their families any good. They’re certainly not doing the people over there any good. But they’re not doing it for their country. They’re doing it for their government. They’re doing it for Bush. That would be a more accurate thing to say: “I’m going off to fight for George Bush. I’m going off to fight for Cheney. I’m going off to fight for Rumsfeld. I’m going off to fight for Halliburton.” Yeah, that would be telling the truth.”

    “…Einstein said this after World War I. He said, “War cannot be humanized. It can only be abolished.” War has to be abolished…”

    Reply

  79. Marcia says:

    « America’s National Interests »
    This catch phrase presented to citizens to squeeze more money and docility from the middle turning to poor class has nothing to do with anything other than market control, power and profit. Bush and Cheney themselves are mere puppet figures put in place to front the show.
    Expendable is the word that best applies to all of us, view Rumsfeld, now you see him, now you don’t. Cheney, like an overseer on a southern plantation will crack the whip as long as he can for his employers.
    When our financial and corporate rulers will have run the well dry in the US, they will move on to greener pastures. Asia is waiting. There is no patriotism in board meetings.
    It will probably take a world economic crisis for people to realize their real situation but they will have few tools to redress a sinking ship.
    “What is good for General Motors is good for the USA” was the regional equivalent for what globalization now names, “American Interests,” from which Americans are absent and silent.

    Reply

  80. Easy E says:

    I also believe that the only thing that will snap the sheeple out of their coma is domestic “shock-and-awe”. It’s coup time in the good ole’ U-S-of-A and let’s pray it’s the good guys that rise to the occasion.

    Reply

  81. Carroll says:

    Posted by SloJoe at November 25, 2006 01:01 AM
    >>>>>>>
    If only…and way past due. The best thing that could happen to this coutnry right now is a military coup. It just might provide the shock the public needs to.. Burn Washington To The Ground and Start Over.

    Reply

  82. SloJoe says:

    When I look at the blown credibility of our casus belli, and that so many of the people who fight our wars come from the most under-represented segment of our population, the working poor, I get the uneasy premonition that we may see a violent backlash someday.
    I can’t put a finger on it, but I keep thinking about a corps of struggling veterans, who feel their class is being screwed over by the wealthy, having a Smedley Butler moment.
    Instead of “Hell no, I won’t go”, we may have “Hi ho, you’ve gotta go.”
    Damn, that’s a cheerful thought. My apologies.

    Reply

  83. Jaded says:

    “… One such hidden cost could be a diminished appetite for international engagement — an “Iraq syndrome” to match the US’s reduced self-confidence following Vietnam is more likely this time, says Steve Clemons at the New America Foundation in Washington.
    “It is too early to be sure what effect Iraq could have on the America public,” he said. “It could be anger, it could be isolationism or some longer-term malaise. There is still a lot that we cannot anticipate.” …”
    There is nothing like honesty to restore the soul. It seems the quote above is what a lot of people think because they’re bearing the burden of lies built on lies. Exit, now, is simple. Just do it. Honor is what results when you do the right thing.
    This “fear of a post-Vietnam identity crisis” is just another ubiquitous lie in the leaning tower of justifications.

    Reply

  84. Pissed Off American says:

    Here is Feingold, telling us that the President of the United States is above the law, and that he himself has no obligation to act as our representative. Who is this fucker that he thinks he can decide for us which laws will be enforced, and which laws won’t be? If our President has committed impeachable crimes, it is incumbant upon our representatives to impeach the bastard. I don’t vote for representatives so they can cherry pick which Americans will be held accountable to the law. Do we now have a justice system for the elite, and a separate justice system for the peons? Fuck these people. I have to obey the law, why the hell shouldn’t our President have to? If Feingold can’t do his God damned job, what the hell is he doing on our payroll? And if we don’t hold these bastards accountable, than what is going to stop them from committing these same crimes over and over and over again?
    What, its OK to lie our country into a war? This prick Bush just gets a “pass” for murdering a few hundred thousand people?
    http://tinyurl.com/yx32ek
    Sen. Russ Feingold does not support impeachment even though he believes ‘the president has probably committed an impeachable offense’
    “I don’t support impeachment, and I don’t support impeachment hearings, even though I think the president has probably committed an impeachable offense,” Feingold said in response to a question from Al Schulz of La Crosse.

    Reply

  85. della Rovere says:

    I would venture to say that the economic costs which have not yet surfaced may yet (and I believe they will) have devastating effects on this country and the world. We have seen only some of the effects of this trillion dollar binge in the slowing economy, the rising debt and the budget deficits. Those who think this sort of distortion can work its way through the economy without very severe effects are deluding themselves. The real crime is not the morally deficient/intellectually bankrupt aspect of Bush-Cheney (Dumb and Dumber) but the wise alecs in the Republican Party and the corporate leadership and media who knowing just how shallow this program was anointed it with “ideas” and “values” and “courage” and we will all pay the price for these games of misdirection.

    Reply

Add your comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *