More From Jordan’s King Abdullah II: The Status Quo is Unacceptable and Dangerous

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king abdullah ii jordan.jpgAfter my post about King Abdullah II’s sobering comments that war between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanan may be “imminent” to a group of Congressmen organized by Representative Adam Schiff last week, I received a clarification from the Embassy of Jordan that I am glad to post as an update to the meeting and discussion.
From a Spokesperson of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan:

Please note that what His Majesty discussed with Congressional members was not confined to the Lebanese border.
The King told Congressional leaders that there is lot of tension in the region on a number of fronts; in Gaza, in Jerusalem, and on the Lebanese border given that some Lebanese say war could be imminent.
He added that the lack of progress in Mideast peace talks is likely to trigger another cycle of violence in the region, which, in turn is disastrous for all of us.

I admire King Abdullah II greatly for his constant emphasis that the Israel-Palestine standoff needs to be pushed forward towards a credible two state track. He is passionate about the importance of moving this forward, and one gets the sense from listening to him that at some point Jordan’s own national posture and its good relations with the US and its relationship with Israel are jeopardized by perpetuation of the status quo.

I have heard King Abdullah speak on this subject at the Clinton Global Initiative — after which President Bill Clinton and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan followed up saying that the paralysis on Mideast peace talks is harming everyone’s interests and must be kicked back to life.
The video above is from a luncheon I attended at the Center for Strategic and International Studies when Jordan’s King offered the same line of argument.
My Congressional sources said that the King was emphatic in the meeting last week that the status quo would not remain stable — and that the region would soon be consumed in another wave of violence if the Obama administration and other stakeholders did not move quickly to get parties moving forward on peace talks.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

110 comments on “More From Jordan’s King Abdullah II: The Status Quo is Unacceptable and Dangerous

  1. Paul Norheim says:

    An interesting development in Lebanon:
    “Lebanese to stage march for secularism
    By Natalia Antelava
    BBC News, Beirut
    Sectarian tension has triggered civil wars in the past
    Civil society activists in Lebanon are hoping that thousands will
    turn up for an unprecedented rally in Beirut.
    The march for secularism will call on all Lebanese to unite and
    work towards the abolition of the country’s deeply divisive
    sectarian system.
    The organisers say it is time to redefine what it means to be
    Lebanese.
    They say this is because at the moment it comes second to
    being a Muslim or a Christian, Shia or Sunni, Catholic or
    Orthodox.
    Eighteen groups make up Lebanon’s multi-denominational
    system, and the civic rights of the members of these groups are
    determined by their religious leaders rather than the
    government.
    Only religious authorities can register marriages, births or death
    or rule on matters of inheritance – so all Lebanese end up
    having different rights.
    Muslims, for example, cannot adopt children; Maronite
    Christians cannot get divorced, and it is impossible for
    members of different sects to marry each other, while civil
    marriage is not an option here.
    The government, too, is divided. Since independence in 1943,
    Lebanon’s president has always been a Maronite Christian, its
    prime minister a Sunni Muslim and speaker of parliament a
    Shia.
    Supporters of this unique system say it gives all the religious
    communities a voice.
    But more and more young people, many of whom will take part
    in this march, point to its failures – chronic instability, weak
    central government and sectarian tension which has resulted in
    civil wars in the past.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8642385.stm

    Reply

  2. marcus says:

    The level of support for Israel goes up and down it`s cyclical-what is important is that jihadi islamic belligerance is here to stay for the concievable future.
    Islamists have an unshakeable foundational hostility to not just israel and the US but against non-muslims in general aprox;7.5 billion people.They don`t want parity they want superiority
    I am sure that this war on terror will last a hundred years it will result in many deaths and the people who today rail against Israel will be a footnote in the history of this war. People will look back and compare them with neville chamberlin.
    I`ve read recently that Iran will not have a ICBM (gee there`s an acyronom I haven`t heard for a while–it`s back) until 2015 and that Gates is confident that US missile defence can shoot them down–GEE that`s all good then-I guess.
    Obama and the people on that christmas eve flight (no coincidence there) got lucky- but when the south park fellows are murdered coming out of some LA nightspot or something much worse happens (too big to sweep under the rug like the fort hood murders-well then puplic opinion will swing back to Israel in a big way-it`s inevitable.
    That is I`m sure very frustating to all the people who support the Islamist`s and attack Israel.
    Israels conflict with the arabs has never been about setllements or israels credentials as a democracy it has always been about wether “if a muslim army burns down a synagogue or a church ,and builds a mosque on the ruins does the land underneath remain muslim forever”
    In Bosnia it was Islam versus christian orthodox
    In western europe it`s Islam versus secularism
    In Kashmir it`s Islam versus Hindu
    Israel`s problems today with he arabs is all about Islam versus Judaism ( it is the muslim arabs who have defined and stoked this conflict from the begining anyone who doesn`t understand that understands nothing about the conflict.and if the IDF is in truth becoming more religous-it is to fight fire with fire,yet again demonstating the defensive nature of israels fight for survival,adapting to the enemies offensive tactics.
    Something else that gives me confidence in israels ultimate victory is this recent trend by the arabs and Obama to bring the religous basis of their grievances to the forefront like in jerusalem`s jewish quarter contruction, israel can`t lose that argument,if Obama like the arabs need some schooling on the foundational role of judaism,let Obama get some schooling- better late than never

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  3. nadine says:

    “C’mon, girl! You know this isn’t what JDLedell was saying.”
    It isn’t, yet it is, when he says the real problem is whether everybody is doing all they can to defuse tensions. Democracies may want to defuse tensions, but tyrannies never do. Tyrannies need the right sort of tensions to stay in power. So jd was ignoring the most relevant piece of information there is.

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  4. Sweetness says:

    Posted by nadine, Apr 21 2010, 3:38PM – Link
    C’mon, girl! You know this isn’t what JDLedell was saying.
    In fact, I don’t think ANYONE here thinks that democracy is
    irrelevant. It’s how the issue is framed and used to support various
    positions that counts.

    Reply

  5. nadine says:

    One more comment on jdledell’s comment…
    “Whether Israel, Iran or the US is a democracy, real or otherwise, is irrelevent. The mideast is a mess and dangerously volitile. The real question is: are the parties involved doing everything they can to dampen the tension.
    Unfortunately it is relevant who is a democracy and who is not, inasmuch as democracies behave differently from tyrannies. Democracies are much more reluctant to take high casualties and forgo prosperity for a cause. Democracies argue about whether “the cause” is worth the sacrifice. Tyrannies have control of the media and can order that “the cause” comes first. If the people don’t like it, they have to lump it. Under a democracy, you get a new government and a change of course.
    This why I think that realists who don’t want to pay attention to internal state organization are being very unrealistic.

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  6. nadine says:

    Sweetness, the plain reality of the Mideast conflict is that the other Arabs have never pressed the Palestinians to settle; just the opposite, they pay them never to settle.
    Every time peace looked at all likely, the radicals like Hamas were blowing up the talks (literally) with money from the Gulf and Arab states. The brave Arab leaders are nowhere to be found at such times. They just get a lot of mileage from whining how much they care about the poor Palestinians and how awful the Israelis are and how the US must do more to fix this, right away!
    Look, Obama started out by asking Egypt and Saudi Arabia to make some purely symbolic concessions to change the tone in return for the Cairo speech; and what did he get? Nothing. Less than nothing. He got a lecture from Mubarak and a tirade from King Abdullah.
    The Cause of Palestine is very useful to the Arabs as a great all-purpose excuse. They think it makes their regimes safer, and trust me, the safety of their regimes is what they REALLY care about. They’re not going to give up “The Cause” without a pressing reason.
    Ironically, the threat of Iran is a pressing reason, and a President who wasn’t such a dope might have gotten somewhere with it. But Obama has his head up his you-know-what believing that I/P conflict is somehow causing Iran to build nukes, as if a settlement would please them, or as if they wouldn’t want hegemony over the Gulf with a settlement.
    Arabs have been telling the West that I/P is the lynchpin of everything for years. Now they’ve been hoist by their own petard; they finally got a President stupid enough to believe them. So Obama has acted on his beliefs, and surprise! he just made everything worse.
    I appreciate your trying to reason with Carroll and her overt anti-Semitism, but reasoning with Carroll is like trying to teach a pig to sing: it just wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  7. Sweetness says:

    JDLedell writes, again the voice of sanity… reprinted in whole for the sake of emphasis…
    “Whether Israel, Iran or the US is a democracy, real or otherwise, is irrelevent. The mideast is a mess and dangerously volitile. The real question is: are the parties involved doing everything they can to dampen the tension.
    The answer is obviously no. They are all acting like children. The Palestinians have to stop boycotting direct negotiations. The Israelis have to stop taking provacative steps in Jerusalem and the settlements. Jordan and Egypt, as parties to peace with Israel, have to join the Palestinians as peace negotiation partners.
    I think Mubarak. Abdullah, Abbas, Meshal, Obama, Bam, the EU and Netanyahu should meet in Jerusalem and decide on the parameters of a peace agreement. The region and the world must tell both Israel and the Palestinians we won’t tolerate a continuation of this conflict – it ends NOW!!!!!

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  8. Sweetness says:

    Carroll writes: “Exactly. The Israelis have done just about everything the nazis did except outright genocide so far.”
    Carroll, it’s a free country, and I know you’re on a crusade to liberate yourself from all taboos with regard to Israel, Jews, anti-Semitism, traitorism, and all the rest.
    But this is simply inaccurate. Anyone who’s studied the history knows this is inaccurate. In major and important ways. If you want to spread falsehoods YOURSELF, have at it. I can’t stop you (obviously). But it’s pretty creepy. And the consequences of doing so will stay with you.

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  9. Sweetness says:

    Carroll: “Has any other country said if we go down we are gonna destroy the ‘entire world’, everybody, innocent women and children, with us?”
    That’s easy…us.
    What do you think MAD was all about?
    What do you think would have happened had the US and the USSR had started lobbing bombs across the ocean?
    What do you think would have happened to Europe, Asia?
    Israel and the US have a LOT in common.

    Reply

  10. Carroll says:

    .CNAS Report is a Sign of the Times
    April 20th, 2010 |
    Daniel Luban
    For another data point on the marked shift in American discourse on Israel/Palestine that has been occurring in recent years, check out the new report on

    Reply

  11. Carroll says:

    Since some people like polls here’s the latest.
    Breaking News ? Lexicon ? Special coverage
    Unpopular
    Not well-liked in the world Photo: AP
    World poll: Only 19% see Israel in positive light
    Survey conducted in 28 countries on 29,000 respondents reveals that only Iran, Pakistan, North Korea have more negative perception than Israel. Most ‘loved’ country is Germany. ‘Obama effect’ has resulted in improvement in relations towards US for first time since 2005
    Ynet Published: 04.20.10, 21:43 / Israel News
    Only Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan are viewed in a more negative light than Israel, according to a poll conducted in 28 countries and published Tuesday by the BBC.
    The poll shows that just 19% of the 29,000 respondents questioned view Israel positively versus 50% who perceive the country in a negative light. Together with Israel at the bottom of the list are Iran (15% positive, 56% negative), Pakistan (16% positive, 51% negative), and North Korea (17% positive, 48% negative).
    The poll also showed that world perceptions of the US are improving with 46% of respondents viewing the country favorably and 34% viewing the country negatively. Only two countries saw a decrease in the perception of the world’s number one superpower

    Reply

  12. Carroll says:

    U.S. officials slam pro-Israel Jerusalem ad
    By Barak Ravid
    Tags: Jewish world, US, Israel news
    United States administration officials have voiced harsh criticism over advertisements in favor of Israel’s position on Jerusalem that appeared in the U.S. press with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s encouragement. The authors of the most recent such advertisements were president of the World Jewish Congress Ronald Lauder and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elie Wiesel. “All these advertisements are not a wise move,” one senior American official told Haaretz.
    In the advertisement, Wiesel said that for him as a Jew, “Jerusalem is above politics,” and that “it is mentioned more than 600 times in Scripture – and not a single time in the Koran.” Wiesel called to postpone discussion on Jerusalem until a later date, when there is an atmosphere of security allowing Israeli and Palestinian communities to find ways to live in peace.
    The ongoing confrontation with the U.S. administration over construction in East Jerusalem was present in many of the comments made by senior Israeli officials during Independence Day.
    Netanyahu himself said in an interview to ABC that freezing construction in the east of the city was an impossible demand, and refused to answer questions on the Israeli response to demands from Washington. Instead, he called on Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas to return to the negotiating table without preconditions.
    Foreign Minister Lieberman, meanwhile, made Jerusalem the focal point of his speech in a festive reception for the diplomatic corps at the President’s Residence in Jerusalem. President Shimon Peres spoke first, calling for progress in the diplomatic process. Lieberman, who took the podium immediately after Peres, made diametrically opposed statements in his speech, stressing that the Palestinian Authority is no partner for peace.
    “Jerusalem is our eternal capital and will not be divided,” Lieberman said. Many of the ambassadors in the audience left feeling stunned and confused, some of them told Haaretz. “The gap between Peres and Lieberman is inconceivable,” one of them said. “We couldn’t comprehend how Lieberman can say all that in front of all the international community delegates.”
    Speaking at the torch-lighting ceremony on Mount Herzl on Monday, Knesset speaker Reuven Rivlin said that there was “an attack on Jerusalem” and that Israel “will not apologize for the building of Jerusalem, our capital.”
    The diplomatic freeze and crisis with the Americans fueled a heated meeting of Labor Party ministers on Sunday. Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, Isaac Herzog and Avishay Braverman told Defense Minister and party chairman Ehud Barak that unless there was some movement on the diplomatic front within weeks, the Labor Party should consider leaving the government or working to bring in Kadima.
    Senior Labor officials, who declined to be named, said this was the first time the diplomatic freeze was being discussed between Labor ministers. “They main message coming from this discussion is that things can’t go on like this,” one senior Labor official told Haaretz. “The Labor ministers told Barak that we will be approaching a moment of political decision within weeks.”
    Barak tried to calm the ministers, saying he was concerned by the state of Israeli-American relations and will travel to Washington next week for talks on the peace process. Barak appears to be set to meet with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, special U.S. envoy George Mitchell and national security advisor General Jim Jones.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Fools. Playing with fire.

    Reply

  13. Carroll says:

    Posted by larry birnbaum, Apr 20 2010, 6:30PM – Link
    and in attempting to imply (or even draw explicitly) a comparison between Israel and the Nazis — a comparison which is aimed explicitly at being hurtful to Jews AS JEWS — in other words, hate speech.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Obviously you don’t get it. No one gives a rats ass about your ‘hurt feelings’ or whether you are Jews or Presbyterians…as long as you are killing, starving, humiliating and stealing from weaker people.
    Let me give you some white phosphorus to rub on your “hurt feelings” and some cluster bombs to sit on while you apply it.

    Reply

  14. Carroll says:

    Posted by JohnH, Apr 19 2010, 8:57PM – Link
    “Hitler

    Reply

  15. Carroll says:

    Who are the real madmen in the ME? Hummm?
    “Israel

    Reply

  16. David says:

    Hope Marcy wins. This albatross of blind support for Israel no matter what she does is both godawful and geopolitically stupid, not to mention enabling of truly inhumane treatment of the occupied by the occupiers. Nothing new, of course. We had our Wounded Knee. But the historical frequency of lethal inhumanity does not make it any less despicable.
    And no, I do not have any use for the terrorists on the Palestinian side who help make excusable to some the terrorism Israel inflicts on the Palestinians, although I understand what drives the individuals the masterminds of random homicide are able to exploit, just as I understand the anger of any parent whose child was the victim of this insanity, anger which is also being exploited. It is a mindless dance of death in which there ultimately will be no winners, but it is also a dance of death in which culpability is proportional to power.

    Reply

  17. David says:

    Hope Marcy wins. This albatross of blind support for Israel no matter what she does is both godawful and geopolitically stupid, not to mention enabling of truly inhumane treatment of the occupied by the occupiers. Nothing new, of course. We had our Wounded Knee. But the historical frequency of lethal inhumanity does not make it any less despicable.
    And no, I do not have any use for the terrorists on the Palestinian side who help make excusable to some the terrorism Israel inflicts on the Palestinians, although I understand what drives the individuals the masterminds of random homicide are able to exploit, just as I understand the anger of any parent whose child was the victim of this insanity, anger which is also being exploited. It is a mindless dance of death in which there ultimately will be no winners, but it is also a dance of death in which culpability is proportional to power.

    Reply

  18. larry birnbaum says:

    Hitler’s “exercise”. What an interesting locution.

    Reply

  19. nadine says:

    “In her mind, the Palestinians are demons.”
    That is a dirty lie, Paul. On this very thread I posted the reporting on the Palestinian civil war by Khaled Abu Toameh, a man who is record asking why no world leader cares about the state of Palestinian democracy, or how many Palestinian get killed by each other.
    Khaled Abu Toameh is a Palestinian journalist who, by his own description, moved to Jerusalem so he could practice real journalism instead of writing Palestinian propaganda. He is critical of both sides. I certainly don’t think he is a “demon”, neither him, nor the others Palestinians who want good government, nor the millions of ordinary people. It’s the corrupt and theocratic leaders I have no use for.

    Reply

  20. Carroll says:

    Posted by PissedOffAmerican, Apr 20 2010, 10:30PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That’s good.
    Now you should write the Calif party and let them know you won’t be voting for or donating to them or their candidate Harman ‘specifically’ because of her Israeli affiliation. That you will write in a name if you vote. And you could add that will encourage all your contacts to do likewise….no votes or money for Israeli candidates regardless of what their other positions may be.

    Reply

  21. Carroll says:

    Posted by Sweetness, Apr 19 2010, 9:14AM – Link
    Posted by Carroll, Apr 19 2010, 2:49AM

    Reply

  22. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Israel is debated at California Democratic convention, Harman walks out in huff
    Marcy Winograd
    By Philip Weiss on April 19, 2010
    We often note the news that Democratic rank-and-file support for Israel is fading. Well, the California State Democratic Convention yesterday endorsed Congresswoman Jane Harman for reelection from a district around Los Angeles, but before it did so, Harman and her opponent, Marcy Winograd, both appeared before a progressive caucus at the convention, and argued Israel. The Fresno Bee calls the fight the

    Reply

  23. JohnH says:

    Yeah, makes you wonder when they’ll assign someone competent to mind TWN.

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  24. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “You’re wrong even about that. It began with a campaign of demonization, removal of civil rights, and property seizures.”
    Can she get her foot any farther down her own throat??? Seems to me she’s about to mid-thigh, and still swallowing.

    Reply

  25. nadine says:

    jdledell,
    Palestinians incite through their government(s) and through their airwaves, which is slightly different, I think even you will admit, what happens in Israel.
    Like Bogie Yaalon just asked in an interview, how come Arabs can live in Israel, in the Negev, the Galilee, but Palestine must be delivered Jew-free? How come nobody says a word about this demand? Just accepts it?
    Not ONE Jew can live in Jordan by law. It’s a capital crime for a Palestinian to sell land to a Jew. The Palestinians demand “Palestine” be delivered Jew-free while a million Arabs are and remain citizens of Israel (unlike the Jordanian Palestinians who are being stripped of citizenship).
    You don’t deny the perpetual incitement of Egyptian & Syrian TV (ever watch the Protocols of the Elders of Zion TV specials – you can see them on Youtube?), of PA and Hamas TV. But some people say bad things inside Kiryat Arba, so it’s the same as Kristallnacht.
    I’m sorry, but it’s not the same, not even close. And the danger of this exaggeration is that you buy into the Arab logic of Jews as illegitimate anywhere except by Arab tolerance, which means as dhimmis.
    The state of Israel has managed with the settlers in previous withdrawals, and they will manage with them in future withdrawals — if the majority of Israelis can be convinced that the sacrifice will lead to peace and not more war.
    I’m sick of this warped judgment that an ounce on the Israeli side is worse than a ton on the Arab side, and we’ll all pretend not to notice the ton, the better to bash the ounce. Let’s join Steve in wringing our hands over the state of Israeli democracy. Hey, Steve, wouldn’t be better off if Palestinian democracy came up to the state of Israeli democracy? If the Palestinians had a democracy?
    It’s another example of the Israelis having to prove they are the purest people in the world before they can get “permission” to defend themselves. If they’re ordinary assholes, then they they’re not allowed to fight Islamist terrorists who don’t hide the fact that they want to destroy Israel and exterminate them.
    Or, as Evan Sayet put it succinctly, “Modern liberals always side with the terrorists.” Whether you buy Paul’s “we don’t do things like that anymore” or my “multi-culturalists always support the ‘other’ against the ‘us’,” it doesn’t matter, the end result is the same.

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  26. JohnH says:

    Since Nadine seems woefully oblivious to the human rights situation inside Israel, I link for her reading pleasure the Association of Civil Rights in Israel’s “State of Human Rights Report 2009: Rights on Condition.”
    “Though Arab citizens of Israel have suffered entrenched discrimination since the establishment of the State, they have faced particularly vicious attacks on their political and civil rights in the past year.”
    http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=695
    Pretty grim reading…

    Reply

  27. Paul Norheim says:

    “Of course in your mind, only Palestinians incite.”
    In her mind, the Palestinians are demons. The only trace of a
    human touch while referring to them is when she ridicules them.

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  28. jdledell says:

    “I know nobody is calling Norwegians “sons of apes and pigs” and saying they need to be slaughtered.”
    Nadine – I heard dozens of Jews, including a rabbi, call for the extermination of the palestinians during my visit last month. If you want to hear demonization, I can give the names of dozens of settlements where that is all you will hear. Please visit Bat Ayin or Kiryat Arba and you will hear the vilest language about other human beings I have ever witnessed.
    Of course in your mind, only Palestinians incite. I don’t know what world you inhabit but you sure are not familiar with Israel. There must be hundreds of thousands of Israelis in settlements and elsewhere who think ethnic cleansing is far too good for Palestinians. Please attend some of the community meetings in these towns, or at shul,and learn what at least a portion of the real Israel is like.

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  29. JohnH says:

    Funny! Nadine had to ignore the majority of Palestinians–refugees and those living in the Occupied Territories–so as to assert that there was no “campaign of demonization, removal of civil rights, and property seizures.” Of course there was no ethnic cleansing in 1948 or in East Jerusalem today, because those affected don’t live inside Israel anymore!
    Hello, Nadine?!?

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  30. nadine says:

    Really? Israeli Arabs have been demonized, have lost their civil rights and property? Link please, and not to electronicintifada.com
    I know nobody is calling Norwegians “sons of apes and pigs” and saying they need to be slaughtered.

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  31. Paul Norheim says:

    “You’re wrong even about that. It began with a campaign of
    demonization, removal of civil rights, and property seizures.”
    (Nadine)
    Sounds alarmingly familiar.

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  32. nadine says:

    “But I clearly noted that Hitler’s exercise began with ethnic cleansing”
    You’re wrong even about that. It began with a campaign of demonization, removal of civil rights, and property seizures. It went bit by bit, together with a build up of a network of concentration camps for the “enemies of the Reich”. Actual ethnic cleansing of Jews and other “untermenschen” began late in the campaign.
    It always begins with a campaign of demonization.

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  33. nadine says:

    correction: Mayor Bloomberg did NOT get a heads up

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  34. nadine says:

    Sweetness, when the New York Times, which has been so pro Obama as to function as the WH Press Office, has the headline
    “Gates Says U.S. Lacks a Policy to Thwart Iran”
    Then you know THERE IS NO POLICY.
    Btw Darryl Issa wants to know how come when the SEC announced its civil charges against Goldman Sachs, Goldman didn’t get a heads up (very unusual), Mayor Bloomberg did get a heads up, the WSJ had no idea it was coming, but the NYT had the whole story ready to print the minute the SEC announced it? And now Greg Craig is working as Goldman’s fixer? What is this – we need a villian to push “Financial Reform” and you’re it, but don’t worry, we’ll give you a fixer so you get some value for the $1 million dollar in donations to the Obama campaign you gave in 2008?
    To borrow a phrase, inquiring minds want to know.

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  35. JohnH says:

    Leave it to Larry Birnbaum to shrug off crimes against humanity, like ethnic cleansing…”it has been seen as part of an approach, however suboptimal, to keeping the peace.”
    Ergo, the crimes Israel commits are not as bad as the crimes others commit. And then he plays the victimization card as a justification!
    And then he drags out the “anti-semitism” canard. Because I criticize the policies of the Israeli government, I must hate Jews! What nonsense!
    Of course, I agree that the holocaust was much worse than what is currently happening. But I clearly noted that Hitler’s exercise began with ethnic cleansing. And my point was that the mindset of those who pursue ethnic cleansing is the same as that of people with commit genocide–seeing some groups of people as disposable and then getting rid of them. So far Israel has been content to cage “unchosen people” in ghettos behind 14′ high walls.

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  36. larry birnbaum says:

    I’m not in favor of any further population transfers in the Middle East. However it has happened many times since World War II all around the world, including Europe, and sometimes it has been seen as part of an approach, however suboptimal, to keeping the peace.
    Regardless, to equate this in all cases to what Hitler did, as JohnH does above, is grotesque and an affront to people who have suffered under true genocide everywhere. When the Nazis put the Jews (and the Gypsies, and homosexuals, and the disabled) in ghettos and concentration camps, population transfer wasn’t the goal — it was a means to an end, that end being extermination. It is typical of the moral sleaze of Israel haters that they are willing to elide this critical moral distinction (and others), both in minimizing what was done to the Jews and other peoples who have been the target of true genocide, and in attempting to imply (or even draw explicitly) a comparison between Israel and the Nazis — a comparison which is aimed explicitly at being hurtful to Jews AS JEWS — in other words, hate speech. That the people who say these sorts of things don’t understand these points is a sign of just how far around the moral bend their hatred has driven them.

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  37. Sweetness says:

    Aside from the fact that the story indicates that the Administration
    DOES have a plan…
    What would a good plan look like?
    The story makes clear that most experts think that bombing would
    be effective (leaving aside the morality for the moment)…
    The story makes clear that “crippling sanctions” simply aren’t
    possible because Russia and China (at a minimum) won’t comply…
    That leaves engagement, which the right has demonized as
    equivalent to appeasing Hitler.
    I’m not sure there are that many more “plans” one could have…

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  38. nadine says:

    This memo
    Gates Says U.S. Lacks a Policy to Thwart Iran
    By DAVID E. SANGER and THOM SHANKER
    Published: April 17, 2010
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/world/middleeast/18iran.html

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  39. Sweetness says:

    Nadine, you’ll have to refresh my memory…which leaked memo? Have a link?

    Reply

  40. nadine says:

    questions, I think it’s particularly interesting if read in tandem with SecDef Gates’ leaked memo. Rarely do you see old hands shouting in public to an administration: “You have no strategy! You have no plan! What the hell do you think you’re doing? You are completely out of touch with reality,” but we’ve just seen it happen twice in one week.

    Reply

  41. questions says:

    One really interesting passage from the Miller piece:
    “First, Arab-Israeli peacemaking is politically risky and life-threatening. Consider the murders of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. At Camp David, I heard Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat say at least three times, “You Americans will not walk behind my coffin.” Leaders take risks only when prospects of pain and gain compel them to do so. Today’s Middle East leaders — Israel’s Netanyahu, Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, and Palestine’s Mahmoud Abbas — aren’t suicidal. It was Netanyahu, after all, who once told me: “You live in Chevy Chase. Don’t play with our future.”
    Second, big decisions require strong leaders — think Jordan’s King Hussein or Israel’s Menachem Begin — because the issues on the table cut to the core of their political and religious identity and physical survival. This requires leaders with the legitimacy, authority, and command of their politics to make a deal stick. But the current crop are more prisoners of their constituencies than masters of them: Netanyahu presides over a divided coalition and a country without consensus on what price Israel will pay for agreements with Palestinians and Syria; Abbas is part of a broken Palestinian national movement and shares control over Palestine’s guns, authority, and legitimacy with Hamas. It’s hard to see how either can marshal the will and authority to make big decisions.
    Third, even with strong leaders, you still need a project that doesn’t exceed the carrying capacity of either side. In the past, U.S. diplomacy succeeded because the post-1973-war disengagement agreements, a separate Egypt-Israel accord, and a three-day peace conference at Madrid aligned with each side’s capabilities. Today, issues such as Jerusalem (as a capital of two states), borders (based on June 1967 lines), and refugees (rights, return, and compensation) present gigantic political and security challenges for Arabs and Israelis.”
    *****
    Interesting analysis.

    Reply

  42. nadine says:

    Aaron David Miller no longer believes in the “false religion” of Mideast peace processing. Losing Aaron David Miller is like the Church losing a bishop to atheism. One suspects his audience is not so much the public as the rest of the Obama administration, who just don’t get how far out of touch with reality they are, and are charging about like bulls in the proverbial china shop.
    From “The False Religion of Mideast Peace
    And Why I’m No Longer a Believer”
    “Although many experts

    Reply

  43. ... says:

    johnh – thanks for your comments here which i tend to be in full agreement with, even if they are regularly mis-characterized by nadine…

    Reply

  44. nadine says:

    JohnH, First, marcus’ opinion are his, not mine, and we differ on some points. I don’t favor forced transfer of populations, Arab or Jews. It is your side which regards Jews as deportable people.
    Second, if you want to see what ethnic cleansing looks like in action, take a good look at the Christian community of Bethlehem. But you won’t. Because it doesn’t count if Jews don’t do it.

    Reply

  45. nadine says:

    “And it is consistent with recent orders issued by the Israeli military. “‘The orders appear to enable Israel to detain, prosecute, imprison and/or deport any and all persons present in the West Bank,’ said Richard Falk, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory.”
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34406&Cr=&Cr1=
    Good example of what passes for “reporting” on Israel, and how bogus charges get amplified by the megaphone of anti-Israel bigots at the UN and the press.
    There is no recent order for deporting. There is a 41 year old standing order allowing the IDF to remove Gazans infiltrators from the West Bank. The only recent change was an ADDITION of a judicial review to the process, i.e. an increase the army’s burden of proof before they could deport an illegal infiltrator to Gaza. That was the only change.
    Amira Hass invented the rest from whole cloth. Not coincidentally, she did it a few days after her paper, Haaretz, went to war against the security establishment of Israel and is paying for one of its reporters to stay in London to impede an investigation into stolen classified documents. The whole story is bogus, made up.
    So, you ask me, where’s the outrage? I’ll tell you. The outrage is all the soi-disant human rights types who have ten times more “outrage” to spend on non-existent Israel crimes than on real crimes by anybody else, which they can’t be bothered to notice.

    Reply

  46. Mr.Murder says:

    This is critical in many areas.
    The trans Arabian pipeline taps in southern Lebanon. The entire world will feel the pinch at the pump for such a conflict.
    Regional governments will track to reactionary shades since those movements gain traction in times of conflict. This could set back pluralism an entire decade in the Mid East, at a key time.
    American policy will remain clogged in static conservative arrangmements the result of the past decade’s policies. The influence on an election will force both sides to veer toward conservative policy poles.
    This would be a death blow to any sense of progressive development for the next 20 or 30 years. On almost every front, resulting the fallout of the war response.
    This would also threaten the future track of NATO influence, as emerging EU member Turkey would have similar strains placed upon its elevation to the second body and its net cumulative boost to the first. The next decade’s plot is basically set and this kind of item jeapordizes the ability to harness diplomatic advance within a security alliance.
    Obama would do good to convene a joint session with Abdullah present.

    Reply

  47. Mr.Murder says:

    Lost a post on this due to the captcha glitch. Extended comments will not reproduce entirely on threads when the ‘back’ function is used on the ‘resubmit’ query.

    Reply

  48. David says:

    You may well prove to be correct, JohnH. Meanwhile, here’s a tidbit from the Orlando Weekly that I stumbled across after my comment which apparently elicited some sort of response from nadine. It’s from a timeline for the history of Orlando, Florida which also includes some tidbits of US law that directly impacted Florida’s future. I am quoting it verbatim: “1842 – The U.S. passes the Armed Occupation Act, giving free land to Florida settlers if they help drive off those pesky Injuns. Who do the hereditary occupants think they are, anyway?”

    Reply

  49. JohnH says:

    “Hitler

    Reply

  50. Paul Norheim says:

    JohnH is right: The comments at TWN have reached bottom.

    Reply

  51. marcus says:

    JohnH; if we could cut through the crap …. the arabs have been unambiguous for the last 3000 years they don`t want a soverignjewish nation in the midst of their caliphate period.
    whats good for the gander is good for the goose.
    The irish don`t want the british on their island
    The Quebecqois don`t want the english.
    The natives don`t want any whites on their reservations
    The blacks don`t want whites in their neighborhoods
    most of europe does`nt want the muslims there
    etc. etc. etc.
    All these groups have or are or will strive to replace the “other”
    You call this ethnic-cleansing I call it population transfers. The few examples above show that this is not a chosen people superiority phenom,it`s very simply how the worldworks.And I am not advocating any violence
    My God,when India was partioned there was a transfer of 26 million people,just to try to keep the peace. I think that in Israel there should be a transfer of people SO WHAT!
    even in the most highly developed western multi-cultural countries PEOPLE LIVE IN THEIR OWN GHETTOS of their own making ( ever heard of a whites only golf club/swimming pool?)
    You probably fit into one or two of my israel hater categories, which ones do you identify with?
    At a minimum if Israel is not able to retain control over the west bank and jews are made to move out-then a equal number of arabs should be moved- out of Israel.

    Reply

  52. Paul Norheim says:

    Nothing new here. JohnH and others may perhaps remember
    the timeless parable marcus shared with us a couple of months
    ago?
    ——————————————
    “POSTED BY MARCUS:
    “Feb 01 2010, 8:30PM – Link
    A little story about the birth of countries
    (israel included)
    A traveller comes across a beautiful homestead,with water and
    trees-he likes it. He goes up to the house and knocks on the
    front door,the homeowner comes out to the porch and asks the
    traveller what he wants.
    The traveller asks him who”s property is this?
    the homeowner says it”s mine
    And how did you get it? he ansewrs, It was my Father”s, he left
    it to me when he passed away.
    And who owned it before your father? the traveller asked.
    Why, my Grandfather did. And how did your grandfather get it ?
    Oh well,he fought for it !
    The traveller looks around,he strokes his chin thoughtfully,then
    turns to the homeowner and say”s Okay, I”ll fight YOU for it !”
    —————————-
    AND WIGWAGS REPLY:
    Feb 01 2010, 9:12PM – Link
    Of course, the parable Marcus shared with us is irrefutable; it
    would be very interesting and entertaining to watch any attempt
    to refute it. Marcus gives us the unalterable and undeniable
    story of human history. It won’t be changing any time soon.
    In fact, it will never change.”

    Reply

  53. marcus says:

    Correction; the english-speaking regions in Quebec do recieve federal/provincial tax dollars for this or that, but not a equitable percentage and only if their municipal hiring and operating processes fufill the french language charter.
    What about a little outrage ?? The dwindling/aging anglo population could sure use some help.
    The outrage over all things Israeli are due to;
    anti-semitism (number 1 )
    stockholm-syndrome (they think it will stop the Jihad (obama suffers from this)
    an ignorance of history (usually deliberate again because of anti-semitism)
    a natural predilection to favour the underdog (again an ignorance of history)
    jelousy/envy (all things jewish) especially the bible,I think it irks christians profoundly that their bible was written by another group (that still exists outside christiandom)
    a reaction to the violence israel sometimes uses to maintain the peace (jews afterall are supposed to be an easy target for someone else`s violence)
    a rebellion against religon in general
    an innate evilness/wickedness ie;pos and his filthy friend carroll ( I think in general sodomites hate israel because of the bible )
    a juvenile rebellion against capitalism/banks even the need for money (again ignorance)
    a fatigue with hearing about the whole damn thing (I think most people would just like to have the whole thing go away and couldn`t care less if Israel is wiped off the map.)
    Some just latch on to the debate because it`s topical ( most of these people lose their furor after a few years)
    a response to the incessant muslim incitement/lies
    jews are or have lived in every country in the world,this makes the debate international/relevant
    You know,in reviewing my (incomplete) list…It seems like an awfully daunting task to defend Israel ( so many potential enemies )

    Reply

  54. JohnH says:

    Nadine does her usual select reading. Marcus specifically said, “I want a palestinian state in Jordan (islamic or not) so that the arabs now living in the west bank will have a place to go…I am though too much of a squishy liberal to advocate ethnically cleansing by violent means/there are alot of other ways…”
    That, my dear is unambiguously ethnic cleansing. I would not expect you to object, as long as it is not happening to your affinity group, now or 80 years ago.
    And it is consistent with recent orders issued by the Israeli military. “‘The orders appear to enable Israel to detain, prosecute, imprison and/or deport any and all persons present in the West Bank,’ said Richard Falk, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory.”
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34406&Cr=&Cr1=
    Like I said, where’s the outrage? Or does the “Israel right or wrong crowd” all advocate ethnic cleansing?

    Reply

  55. nadine says:

    JohnH, I see your reading comprehension problems continue unabated. marcus was referring, for better or worse, to the treatment Quebec has meted out to its Anglophone population, which is not exactly Balkans-style ethnic cleansing.
    Though while we’re on the subject, maybe somebody could explain why Europe is more bent out of the shape by people screaming about non-existent ethnic cleansing on the West Bank, than by real ethnic cleansing in the Balkans? Europe very noticeably sat on their hands while 250,000 people died in the Balkans, which is about four times as many as have died in all the Arab-Israeli wars.

    Reply

  56. JohnH says:

    The comments at TWN have reached bottom. Comenters now feel free to openly discuss and advocating crimes against humanity, and possibly even geneocide.
    I am dismayed and shocked that someone like marcus is openly discussing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It’s as if I am overhearing conversations that Hitler and Slobodan Milosevic must have held with their advisors.
    And people wonder why I speak out against the policies of Kadima/Likud? Well, this is exactly where that mindset leads–crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide.
    The world turned a blind eye to this kind of behavior in 1948 and 1967. And now it looks like it’s going to happen all over again. And with massive US government assistance.
    Where’s the outrage?

    Reply

  57. Pahlavan says:

    ….and one no longer needs to wonder why POA must frequently rely on the word

    Reply

  58. Jerry says:

    Next Year, The Two State Solution.
    Neither the Palestinians nor Israel can exist without outside support, and the outside supporters have agreed to a Two State Solution.
    The point has been reached where what the Palestinians or the Isralies demand is no longer determinative.
    One way or another the ‘World’
    wants this problem solved; there is no other option but constructive engagement for the Palestinians or Israelies if they have any hope of maximizing their self-interests.
    It is time to put the bickering children, each in their own state, in time out.

    Reply

  59. marcus says:

    Nadine I appreciate your depth of knowledge concerning all things Israel,but we fundementally dissagree on some core issues;
    I want a palestinian state in Jordan (islamic or not) so that the arabs now living in the west bank will have a place to go/you on the other hand think that they can stay.
    I am though too much of a squishy liberal to advocate ethnically cleansing by violent means/there are alot of other ways
    They could be given a financial incentive to leave
    Or,Israel could ethnically cleanse the area in the same way as Quebec has done with their English problem.
    Very simply all Israel would have to do is declare Hebrew the only official language in the west bank;
    All government jobs and contracts would go to hebrew-speaking people/firms
    All signs must be in Hebrew(they could have arabic on them but only half as large)
    Any new immigrants jew or arab would be forced to go to hebrew schools
    all gov`t info/tax forms/driving tickets/court judgments etc.all in hebrew only
    All road signs Hebrew only
    all cultural/heritage events in H.
    any tax financed project from city parks to school upgrades etc only to the H speakers
    The English population in Quebec has gone frome 1,400,000. to 735,000. in the past 30 years due to exactly these policies.
    I suppose if Israel tried to do exactly the same it would be called Nazi/mengela etc.etc. but so what, these racists; POS and that (dirty) Carroll will slander and insult jews and israel no matter what.

    Reply

  60. nadine says:

    Now I realize it can’t rise to the level of “atrocity” unless some Israeli is clearing a buffer zone, but you’d think somebody would notice a civil war with 2,000 casualties. Khalid Abu Toameh reports:
    “Now, the two rival Palestinian parties, which have been at war with one another since the former US Administration and many European governments drove the Palestinians into a parliamentary election in 2006, seem determined to pursue the fight to the last Palestinian.
    This dirty civil war has thus far claimed the lives of nearly 2,000 Palestinians, most of them innocent civilians, while thousands of others have been injured.
    In the Gaza Strip, Hamas is reported to have killed or imprisoned many Fatah loyalists over the past three years. Human rights organizations recently expressed concern over the Hamas government

    Reply

  61. nadine says:

    No need to involve Bam and the EU, jdledell. If the two King Abdullahs and Mubarak got off their butts and said, “we want this to end”, all the players could come to a deal. They would still have to deal with Assad and Hamas somehow.
    Ah, but Mubarak and the Abdullahs don’t want it to end, do they? Whatever would they use to keep their people’s eyes fixed on external, not internal, wrongs, if they lost The Great Cause of Palestine?

    Reply

  62. jdledell says:

    Whether Israel, Iran or the US is a democracy, real or otherwise, is irrelevent. The mideast is a mess and dangerously volitile. The real question is: are the parties involved doing everything they can to dampen the tension.
    The answer is obviously no. They are all acting like children. The Palestinians have to stop boycotting direct negotiations. The Israelis have to stop taking provacative steps in Jerusalem and the settlements. Jordan and Egypt, as parties to peace with Israel, have to join the Palestinians as peace negotiation partners.
    I think Mubarak. Abdullah, Abbas, Meshal, Obama, Bam, the EU and Netanyahu should meet in Jerusalem and decide on the parameters of a peace agreement. The region and the world must tell both Israel and the Palestinians we won’t tolerate a continuation of this conflict – it ends NOW!!!!!

    Reply

  63. Sweetness says:

    Posted by PissedOffAmerican, Apr 18 2010, 9:45PM – Link
    I like Cohen, too. Read him all the time and largely agree with this article. But I do think it’s worth highlighting these sections, only because no one else will…
    Cohen: “The Middle East is an uncomfortable neighborhood for minorities, people whose very existence rebukes warring labels of religious and national identity.”
    SN: You mean, not just in Israel?
    Cohen: “Yet perhaps 25,000 Jews live on in Iran, the largest such community, along with Turkey

    Reply

  64. Sweetness says:

    Hey Carroll, thanks for responding…
    You have my background and mindset wrong, but we’ll get to that later…
    CAR: Oh gawd!, you are really losing it. We called ourselves a democracy when we had slavery.. BUT we weren’t a REAL democracy were we?
    SN: Were we a real democracy all those years we had Jim Crow? How about Ike was he a democratically elected president of a democracy?
    CAR: Our famous “all men created equal” wasn’t applied was it? You can’t really be a democracy unless “all men” are treated equal. We were a fake just like Israel is right now a fake. And the US is once again becoming fake where it concerns Israel and I/P.
    SN: But Carroll, isn’t it obvious that all men aren’t created equal now–even though we’re doing a lot better? Look at the progress of the country. It’s not just about slavery; I only use that as an extreme example. We’ve just elected our first black president–think that’s just the way the cookie crumbled? Ask some of our black citizens who voted FOR THE FIRST TIME in 2008. Look at my fair state of VA whose governor is trying to reinstate a LITERACY TEST before a felon can vote. Sound familiar?
    CAR: And pleeezzzze for God’s sake give up the “Johnny did too Mommy” as a defense for Israel, it’s childish.
    SN: That isn’t the point at all. I’m just trying to get clear on when a country gets to call itself a democracy.
    CAR: We are talking about Israel and the here and now, not yesteryear.
    SN: Me too. Want to talk about how gays get thrown out of the US military in America, here and now? Have we reached that mysterious threshold where we get to call ourselves a democracy? You tell me. Here we have men and women who are risking their lives for our sorry asses, and we’re perfectly willing to shit can them and worse. Sound like a democracy to you? And what about that literacy test? Does that mean we’re not a democracy any more?
    CAR: I don’t think you are necessarily a supporter of Israel’s atrocities, but still an Israel supporter because you are all wound up in your Jewish identity thru your religion and therefore want to defend the “Jewish State” simply because you are Jewish and it is Jewish.
    SN: I’m not sure what it means to be an Israel supporter. I don’t give money. I’ve never been there. I don’t vote on the basis of Israel. The only Jewish organizations I belong to are J Street. I think you are far more wrapped up in Israel than I am. I do identify as a Jew. I guess you identify as an American, and you are a Southerner. So what?
    CAR: And where we part company is… having to sit upstairs in the black section with my black maid because of racial discrimination ignited in me a understanding and hatred of “injustice” and humiliation of people. You on the other hand, because of the discrimination against your father, grew up only with a sense of personal “resentment”.
    SN: Actually, not at all and neither did my father. Just the opposite. One reason he was a lefty most of his life and I all my life. One difference is, you were/are a member of the dominant group.
    CAR: If you want to go on about how Judaism is suppose to make the chosen people an example of good you should get past your ‘it’s all about me and mine’ personal resentment from 60 frigging years ago and convert it to empathy and a fight against the same kind of injustices going on right now. The Israeli treatment of Palestinians would be good place to start.
    SN: I agree, and that’s what I do…oh, since about 1973…actually, since 1967. Maybe we rubbed shoulders on those civil rights or anti-war marches. Nonetheless, that doesn’t prevent me from speaking up when my people are being wronged…and against plain old ignorance.

    Reply

  65. Sweetness says:

    Posted by Carroll, Apr 19 2010, 2:49AM

    Reply

  66. questions says:

    Change of Topic: BEWARE there are dragons in this here thread….
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/18/AR2010041803711.html?hpid=topnews
    What makes the Taliban (part of it at least) tick….
    It seems to give new meaning to something like syncretism? And it looks to be the sort of thing that can’t at all be managed.

    Reply

  67. Carroll says:

    Israel explains iPad ban
    Written by Andre Yoskowitz @ 17 Apr 2010 15:39
    On Thursday we reported that the Israeli newspaper Haaretz had reported that the Apple iPad has been blocked from entering Israel, with customs officials confiscating all devices upon entry.
    Today, the Israeli Ministry of Communications has elaborated on their reasoning behind the ban.
    Says spokesperson Yechiel Shavi: “This device’s wireless strengths violate Israeli law and will overpower other wireless devices in Israel.”
    Shavi added that if Apple releases a new version that complies with EU Wi-Fi standards, the ban will be overturned. Apple, in rebuttal says: “The iPad complies with international industry standards for Wi-Fi specifications.”
    The ban makes little sense to anyone outside of Israel. Apple uses a standard Wi-Fi chip that is industry-wide. From a technical standpoint, the ban doesn’t make sense, says Richard Doherty, an analyst with the technology consulting firm Envisioneering Group, via the WSJ.
    We will certainly keep you updated on any development, as this story keeps getting stranger and stranger.”
    >>>>>>>>>>
    Israel must be running out of people and countries to piss off. My guess is Israel doesn’t make anything that can compete… maybe they haven’t been able infiltrated Apple yet and steal their tech.

    Reply

  68. Carroll says:

    This is the second case I have seen shot down in court lately. The other case lost was when a zionist group tried to convince a court that a protest march against Israel was a hate crime and anti semitic. I didn’t save the article but I believe that one was in Canada.
    These are examples of the ‘worm turning’. And it’s happening because everyone is sick to death of the zionista’s Israel whine and hypocrisy.
    Have you ever heard anything as stupid as this Israeli Embassy’s statement?…
    “The claim that one must distinguish between hatred of the Jewish people and hatred of the State of Israel is absolutely inappropriate”
    So we aren’t suppose to distinguish between Jews and Israel? So do they want the world to include Jews in their criticism of Israel and blame Jews for Israel’s behavior? Or ..do they think that the holocaust is some kind of forever protection of Jews and if they can make Jews and Israel one and the same Israeli nazism can roll on unpunished forever?
    These people are pure unadulterated idiots.
    Not only do they expect some kind of ‘eternal’ specialness and exemption for Jews, they think the ‘special exception” should include a Jewish country. Gawd!
    And this too rich not to highlight.
    “Hatred of Jews has led to catastrophe, and encouraging this hatred under the cover of

    Reply

  69. nadine says:

    “Roger Cohen! The modern-day equivalent of the “useful idiots” who went to Russia under Stalin and wrote home how great everything was.
    Even that fool was embarrassed by what he’d written after the Ahmedinejad’s “re-election”.”
    Yes, he had to acknowledge the reality of the Green Movement and how they were being suppressed, shot, jailed, raped, hung. He wrote a few moving columns about the plight of the Iranian protesters.
    But they Cohen left Iran and reverted to idiotic form.

    Reply

  70. Carroll says:

    Posted by PissedOffAmerican, Apr 18 2010, 9:45PM – Link >>>>>>>>>>
    Great article.
    I think Cohen could also explain more exactly how the creation of Israel “transfered” a lot of ME Jews from other ME countries to Israel.
    The British records document how the 1948 Israelis infiltrated Iraq to smuggle guns to the Jewish communiuty there and encouraged them to believe they were unsafe and the government was going to wipe them out as happend to the European Jews. Also in the records is that along with smuggling guns into Iraq for the Jews there, rumors” started ciculating and the Zionist demanded the British ‘airlift” all the Jews from Iraq to Israel because “they heard” Jews were arming themselves in Iraq and expected to attacked.
    This is all DOCUMENTED FACT…and I think we can all figure out what the zionist were up to in their eforts to “draw” Jews from other countries to the just created Israel. “By way of deception” has been the zionist method of operation since their birth.

    Reply

  71. nadine says:

    David, Ah yes, the Leftist tactic: the perfect is the enemy of the good and you’re free to hate America or Israel as long as they’re not perfect. The wars the Arabs have waged, the refusals to negotiate or make a deal despite many attempts, the fact that a million Arabs are Israeli citizens while zero Jews are Jordanian citizens (or could be Palestinian citizens), it makes no difference.
    The internal arrangements of Fatah and Hamas, neither of which much resemble a democracy, get a pass. They are the poor oppressed oriental types you champion, so they can’t be held responsible for anything.
    Actually, the number of ways the new multi-culturalism resembles the old racism is rather startling. It’s just been flipped so that white=evil, brown or black=virtuous.

    Reply

  72. nadine says:

    “”The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917

    Reply

  73. Dan Kervick says:

    “An Ode to Steve Clemons”
    Well, Wig, I was going to say, “keep your day job.” But I think this is your day job.

    Reply

  74. David says:

    Have to agree with questions, having grown up in the apartheid South. Florida was considered a state-level democracy as part of a democratic United States pre-1964, and in no small measure because of Leroy Collins it was pointing itself in a more democratic direction. But a bastion of justice for all its inhabitants, not hardly, and certainly not for those classified as citizens who were not white.
    I think a better analogy for Israel’s brand of democracy relative to its Palestinian citizens, however, is the apparent push to treat them more and more like our forebears treated the inhabitants who were here when our European forebears arrived, especially Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, which for Israel is what the West was to the nascent United States, something to be settled and incorporated. Existing populations – an inconvenience to be dispensed with one way or another, with a few absorbed so long as they were not demographically significant.
    This is far beyond just “a problem.” This is a very ugly, potentially disastrous nightmare which has already featured some of the most inhumane behavior imaginable for what is supposed to be a civilized, enlightened champion of democracy and justice.
    And I just had to listen, however briefly, to a Christian zionist at my 50th high school reunion. American Christian zionism adds a quite significant, quite disturbing dynamic to this madness.
    If Israel does not change course, and I gather a significant portion of the Israeli populace really would like to give up the occupation and the settlements in favor of peace (which could wind up including some measure of justice as a corollary), everyone will lose. There will be no winners, just as if Israel attacks Iran, there will be no winners, and again everyone will lose.
    Could Bush have started off the 21st century any stupider as POTUS, and can the world’s case of cephalo-rectal thrustitis as collective viewpoint get any worse?

    Reply

  75. Carroll says:

    Posted by Sweetness, Apr 18 2010, 7:33PM – Link
    POA writes: “So you are claiming that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same access to justice, educations, health care, and voting rights that the Israeli Jews do?”
    No. What I’m claiming is that the United States was considered a democracy even when it had enslaved its black “citizens”…even when it was lynching its black citizens…even when it kept its black citizens from equal access to everything. And even though its black citizens were never at war with white Americans
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Oh gawd!, you are really losing it. We called ourselves a democracy when we had slavery.. BUT we weren’t a REAL democracy were we?
    Our famous “all men created equal” wasn’t applied was it? You can’t really be a democracy unless “all men” are treated equal. We were a fake just like Israel is right now a fake. And the US is once again becoming fake where it concerns Israel and I/P.
    And pleeezzzze for God’s sake give up the “Johnny did too Mommy” as a defense for Israel, it’s childish.
    We are talking about Israel and the here and now, not yesteryear.
    I don’t think you are necessarily a supporter of Israel’s atrocities, but still an Israel supporter because you are all wound up in your Jewish identity thru your religion and therefore want to defend the “Jewish State” simply because you are Jewish and it is Jewish.
    And where we part company is… having to sit upstairs in the black section with my black maid because of racial discrimination ignited in me a understanding and hatred of “injustice” and humiliation of people. You on the other hand, because of the discrimination against your father, grew up only with a sense of personal “resentment”.
    If you want to go on about how Judaism is suppose to make the chosen people an example of good you should get past your ‘it’s all about me and mine’ personal resentment from 60 frigging years ago and convert it to empathy and a fight against the same kind of injustices going on right now. The Israeli treatment of Palestinians would be good place to start.

    Reply

  76. WigWag says:

    An Ode to Steve Clemons
    By WigWag
    Double standards he sure does like
    And with them does he Israel strike
    These hypocracies that he proclaims
    does Steve the blogger have no shame?

    Reply

  77. larry birnbaum says:

    Roger Cohen! The modern-day equivalent of the “useful idiots” who went to Russia under Stalin and wrote home how great everything was.
    Even that fool was embarrassed by what he’d written after the Ahmedinejad’s “re-election”.

    Reply

  78. JohnH says:

    Gads! Nadine doesn’t even read her own link!
    The British mandate did not create Palestine in Trans-Jordan. “The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917

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  79. JohnH says:

    Well, Sweetness has an interesting point. It matters not how much of the population is disenfranchised. As long as SOME of the people get to choose their leaders and live under a system of laws, then it’s a democracy. So therefore, Israel is a democracy, even though it’s a Jewish state, which means it privileges Jews. Others (Christians, Muslims) need not apply. They are not even allowed to help form governments. As for Christians and Muslims living under occupation, they get no rights whatsoever.
    By that definition, Sweetness would have to admit, Iran is clearly a democracy. Women get to vote. And there is no disenfranchisement by ethnic group in any of the lands under Iranian sovereignty.

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  80. nadine says:

    JohnH, stop pretending that history doesn’t exist just because you don’t know it. Go look at the map of the Mandate at the top of this Wiki article
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine
    and you can see the the Mandate encompasses what is today both Israel and Jordan. That was the original Mandate of Palestine.
    Following the Sykes-Picot treaty and the Treaty of Versailles and the San Remo Conference and the Hashemites getting kicked out of Hijaz by Ibn Saud in 1925, the Brits decided to give the part of the Mandate that lay beyond the Jordan (that’s what “Transjordan” means, get it?) to their clients, the Hashemites. The Western part they reserved for the development of a Jewish homeland according to the Balfour Declaration. That’s what the League verified in 1925.
    The point is, all the borders: Lebanon, Syria, the Mandate of Palestine/Transjordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were carved out by the British and French in the aftermath of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. They were all brand new borders. In the case of the Mandate, they didn’t even follow any provincial borders that had been there before.

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  81. Sweetness says:

    There is no dead horse, here, POA.
    Carroll asserted that Israel wasn’t a democracy.
    That seems to be important to her.
    I asserted it was and is and gave you my reasons.
    You, per usual, ascribe all sorts of nefarious motives to what I’m saying and why. Your usual worn-out personal vendettas.
    As to your regular plaint that we’re no longer a nation of laws, I can only say, “no longer?”
    As far as following the rule of law–or being a moral country–we’re FAR better now, and certainly no worse, than we’ve ever been. I’m sorry it’s taken you this long to wake up.
    Back when I was growing up, there were towns where we were legally barred from living. There were want ads that said outright WASP ONLY. But my father still considered this a democracy.
    Because it was.

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  82. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Sweetness, you are beating a dead horse. Your argument has already been shown to be asinine. But that fact will probably bother you to about the same degree that it bothers Nadine that we know she is rarely, if ever, honest.

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  83. Sweetness says:

    JH: I suppose that Sweetness would assert that Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem live wonderful lives under the Occupation without Representation.
    SN: John, the question is, is Israel a democracy. Carroll asserted it wasn’t; I say it is. It had nothing to do with whether Gazans live wonderful lives.
    JH: What a wonderful democracy! Imprison almost half the population under your control behind 14′ high walls, deny them any legal rights, even to build new houses or seek compensation for stolen land, and then declare it democracy! Wow! I’m impressed!
    SN: You can call it a “wonderful” democracy if you want; I’ll stick with “democracy.”
    JH: But, Sweetness responds, America had slavery a century and a half ago, so today Zionists are entitled to deny Palestinians any rights, imprison them, and throw away the keys! Brilliant!
    SN: Gosh, John, fail reading comprehension way back when? That isn’t what I said…clearly. What I said is that most people would say that the Founders founded a democratic republic, despite its obvious shortcomings and failings.
    As you know, LONG after slavery was abolished, blacks still didn’t have the franchise, but still, I think, most people would say that America was a democracy back in, say, 1945. However faulty it was.
    And now we have our first black president ever. Sorry, our first half-black president. Think that’s just the way the cookie crumbled for the descendants of slaves? Think it just so happened that a lot of blacks down in Carroll’s neck of the woods voted for president FOR THE FIRST TIME in 2008? I don’t.
    But I still think America is a democracy…even if it isn’t a wonderful one.

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  84. nadine says:

    MarkL, it wasn’t a “deal”. They negotiated. Ben Gurion refused King Abdullah’s deal. Did you forget, or do you not know, that Transjordan’s army was one of the five Arab armies that invaded the new Israel in May 1948, and was by far the most effective, taking the West Bank and most of Jerusalem?
    WTF kind of deal is it that is directly followed by an invasion?

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  85. PissedOffAmerican says:

    And meanwhile, the Jews in Iran are perfectly happy to stay where they are. Must be because they are universally maltreated, eh?
    What Iran

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  86. Sweetness says:

    POA writes: “Fact is, the United States WAS NOT a Democracy while people were allowed to hold slaves.” Of course it was.
    Let’s look at WWII, when the democratic allies fought the Axis. Blacks were segregated in the military. Think we were fighting for a democracy?
    And if it wasn’t a democracy…what was it?
    Let’s move the time frame forward to, say, 1964. Just before the Civil Rights Act. Was America a democracy back when Carroll’s black maid was taking her into those black only entrances? I think most people would say it was a democracy, if imperfect. In fact, I bet Carroll would say it was. What do you say Carroll…
    Was Ike the president of a democracy? And if it wasn’t a democracy, what was it? Forget Ike, what about George Washington–was he president of a democracy? Honest Abe? Teddy Roosevelt? FDR? JFK?
    Let’s move it forward to, say, 2008. After four centuries, we get our first black president, who had just before been our only black senator.
    Think that was just one of those things? That there weren’t societal barriers to blacks rising to the highest levels of our society…43 years after the Civil Rights Act…150 years after blacks were supposedly enfranchised?
    Just so happened that 43 years after the Civil Rights Act, we just HAPPENED to get our first black president?
    That before 2008 blacks had just run and lost. Had bad luck. Or that before that blacks had just not decided to run. That blacks had an open shot at the presidency. Or the senate. Or any of the Fortune 1,000 companies. Does this look like a democracy to you?
    Hey look! There are plenty of states where two gay people are legally barred from getting married. Two ordinary “citizens.” Everyone else can get married, but not them. What do you think? Is America a democracy even now?
    Hey, let’s look at our military. Now, it turns out that gays are allowed to serve openly in Israel’s military…but are they in this democracy we call America? These are native born folk. They vote. They pay taxes. Okay, in most places, they can’t get married. And they can get thrown out of their career for who they are.
    But you tell me if this is a democracy.
    And if it’s not a democracy…what is it?

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  87. JohnH says:

    I suppose that Sweetness would assert that Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem live wonderful lives under the Occupation without Representation.
    What a wonderful democracy! Imprison almost half the population under your control behind 14′ high walls, deny them any legal rights, even to build new houses or seek compensation for stolen land, and then declare it democracy! Wow! I’m impressed!
    But, Sweetness responds, America had slavery a century and a half ago, so today Zionists are entitled to deny Palestinians any rights, imprison them, and throw away the keys! Brilliant!

    Reply

  88. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Notice how these jackasses have noted the empty ineffectiveness and disingenousness of accusing commenters of “anti-semitism”, so they have now switched to the term “Israel haters”?
    Gee, lets see. According to sweetness and questions, its unreasonable to expect that mankind has advanced or evolved in its respect for human rights since the days of oppressing and murdering the native americans, or keeping black slaves. We did it back then, so why the hell are we bitching about what Israel does in the twentieth century??? How’s that for a rationale that justifies Israeli behaviour?
    Fact is, the United States WAS NOT a Democracy while people were allowed to hold slaves. Just because we called it one did not make it so. Above, Sweetness makes the argument that what matters is what we CALL Israel, whether or not it is actually what we choose to call it. Well, duh. Thats been obvious for some time now, that the narrative is what is important to these Nazi clones. Its not Israel’s actions that count, its the success and scope of its Hasbara and Megaphone efforts that count.
    Brilliant, sweetness. You and questions deserve each other. And you BOTH deserve Nadine.

    Reply

  89. larry birnbaum says:

    1. The usual Israel-haters drawn to Steve Clemons’s blog. But I guess he’s just an innocent bystander.
    2. King Abdullah is worried that “the region would soon be consumed in another wave of violence if the Obama administration and other stakeholders did not move quickly to get parties moving forward on peace talks”? Then I wonder what, exactly, he and other Arab leaders are doing to help make that happen. In the absence of that kind of positive action, this isn’t a prediction, it’s a threat.

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  90. Sweetness says:

    POA writes: “So you are claiming that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same access to justice, educations, health care, and voting rights that the Israeli Jews do?”
    No. What I’m claiming is that the United States was considered a democracy even when it had enslaved its black “citizens”…even when it was lynching its black citizens…even when it kept its black citizens from equal access to everything. And even though its black citizens were never at war with white Americans.
    Given that…and given that Arab Israelis have a better deal than WE gave our black citizens…I see no reason not to call Israel what it is, a democracy.

    Reply

  91. DonS says:

    The Israeli propaganda machine has been good, even superb at controlling the PR battle. But let’s face it, there hasn’t been much of an opposition. Generating sympathy and momentum for Israel has been done on the backs of generating hatred and loathing for the Arab. And since Arabs are perceived as a variety of brown people in the benighted US, it has been a smooth formula for success.
    That, however, is changing, as US policy of necessity seeks to befriend more of the mid and near east against the new ‘terrorist’ enemy perceived to root in the area. Israel’s boogey man of ‘bad Arabs’ still works in important ways, but it is no longer quite the zero sum game. Overall US ME policy must become more nuanced, and Israel is becoming a hindrance to that.
    Larger regional and worldwide trends threaten to leave Israel at the station if it does not fundamentally reorient. If Israel weren’t so arrogant it would attempt to align with more moderate states, like Jordan (deficient though it is as a democracy), and get on with the business of normalizing. Would that leave Iran isolated, or what? But Israel apparently thinks it can go it alone, or at least counts upon the US big stick to be always in it’s pocket.

    Reply

  92. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “By any reasonable definition, Israel is a democracy, too………”
    So you are claiming that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same access to justice, educations, health care, and voting rights that the Israeli Jews do?
    Really? Hmmmm, have you been reading Nadine’s script, sweetness? Or would you perhaps like to rethink descriobing a racist fascist state as being a “Democracy”? And just to head you off at the pass before you start sputtering on about how I need to look here at home before I judge these nazis running the show in Israel, perhgaps you should recall the amount of times I have decried the fact that we no longer seem to have a “representative” form of government, or one that is accountable to the law.
    Markl, asking “Nadine” to stop with the revisionist BS is akin to asking “questions” if there is any concrete wisdom to be found in the act of wiping his own ass.

    Reply

  93. JohnH says:

    Sweetness, yeah right! the US never disenfranchised half the people under its control. How can you claim Israel to be a democracy when only the Jewish half gets to participate in the government?

    Reply

  94. MarkL says:

    Nadine,
    Ben Gurion and King Abdullah had a secret deal to split land before the war even started.
    Stop the revisionist BS.

    Reply

  95. Sweetness says:

    Carroll writes: “Israel ‘claims’ to be democratic and isn’t. So whether or not a country or people is ‘democratic’ or not is so totally beside the point when discussing ‘fake democratic’ Israel versus their ‘non democratic’ neighbors and enemies.”
    This is silly, Carroll. Let’s take the worst case example. Do you reckon the United States was a democracy from, say, it’s founding up through the 1964 Voting Rights Act?
    This is not a question of “who’s worse” or of wrongs gone by…but one of definition.
    I think just about 100% of the people everywhere would answer the question in the affirmative. The United States was a democracy from its founding on…even if it had imperfections (and still has imperfections).
    By any reasonable definition, Israel is a democracy, too, and probably MORE democratic than the US was throughout much of its history.

    Reply

  96. JohnH says:

    Contrary to Nadine, who cites no sources for her disinformation, I try to check things out instead of just blathering on.
    “More than 76% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan river and was known as “Transjordan”. The Permanent Court of International Justice and an International Court of Arbitration established by the Council of the League of Nations handed down rulings in 1925 which determined that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created successor states of the Ottoman Empire as defined by international law.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan
    Jordan was NEVER considered by international law to be part of Palestine, just like Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem have NEVER been part of Israel under international law.

    Reply

  97. nadine says:

    “As usual, Nadine twists the fact. The Palestine Mandate consisted of two parts–Palestine and Transjordan. Transjordan was never a “Palestinian state.” (JohnH)
    The British drew the Mandate, then the British split it into two parts. Before they split it, it was one part. After they split it, it was two parts. Before it split, it was all “the Mandate of Palestine”. After it split, it was “the Mandate of Palestine” and “the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan”. What transcendental significance are you assigning to its becoming two parts? All the borders were drawn by the British. None of them followed any pre-existing Ottoman borders.
    What “fact” is being twisted? Only the pseudo-facts of the Palestinian party line, which instruct you forget that the British drew the borders. No, no, no, those are the sacred borders of “historical Palestine”. Since forever, forever, I tell you! not since 1922 when the British redrew them to create a consolation prize for their clients the Hashemites.
    Next, you’ll be telling TWN there was never a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. That’s the Palestinian party line too. The moderate Sari Nusseibeh had to go into hiding a few months ago because he published an article that mentioned that there was once a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount. Are you going to be the party line enforcer of TWN?
    And you want to see ethnic cleansing, take a look what Jordan did in 1948. Not one single Jew was left in the West Bank. Not one. Jewish buildings were destroyed. Now, that’s ethnic cleansing.

    Reply

  98. JohnH says:

    Is marcus an American? If so, he has his allegiances all mixed up. Unquestioningly siding with “Israel right or wrong” is definitely not a sign of being a good American!!!

    Reply

  99. JohnH says:

    As usual, Nadine twists the fact. The Palestine Mandate consisted of two parts–Palestine and Transjordan. Transjordan was never a “Palestinian state.”
    And here’s the ultimate hypocrisy: “The present King Abdullah is stripping thousands of those citizenships for the arrivals of the last forty years. This would be a human rights offense if he wasn’t an Arab.” The pot calling the kettle black?
    Yes, stripping citizenship is a human rights offense. But what about ethnic cleansing and dispossession? Nadine, as usual, ignores egregious Israel behavior while glibly criticizing that of others.

    Reply

  100. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Carroll gets it.
    Its all about the narrative, and wresting control of that narrative from these scumbags in our media who have gold plated a pile of shit in order to keep the public iognorant about what their tax dollars are actually doing.
    And Marcus, you’ve accomplished your mission. We are all fully convinced that you are a huge jackass. You can go away now. Or perhaps you feel you need to accuse Carroll of anal sex with Arab men again before you do a swan song?

    Reply

  101. nadine says:

    JohnH, Jordan isn’t the new Palestinian state, it’s the original Palestinian state. It’s 3/4 of the original Mandate of Palestine and its people are 80% Palestinians.
    In 1948 King Abdullah of Transjordan (great-grandfather of the present King) declared that the whole Mandate should be one country and tried to get Ben Gurion to buy the deal. He said, no thanks. When Jordan occupied the West Bank in 1948 there was no talk of its being a separate country. But Jordan did give citizenship to Arab refugees of Palestine, the only Arab country to do so.
    The present King Abdullah is stripping thousands of those citizenships for the arrivals of the last forty years. This would be a human rights offense if he wasn’t an Arab. Arabs are always held to lower standards.

    Reply

  102. Carroll says:

    Is anyone else bored with our resident zionistas circular and comparisons arguments? It’s like watching 3 year olds try to pound square pegs into round holes..over and over.
    Which Arab countries “claim” to be democracies.
    You can’t apply democratic definitions and demands to a country that doesn’t claim to be a democracy to begin with.
    Israel ‘claims’ to be democratic and isn’t.
    So whether or not a country or people is ‘democratic’ or not is so totally beside the point when discussing ‘fake democratic’ Israel versus their ‘non democratic’ neighbors and enemies.
    This is why I can’t fully read the wigges and nadines and marcus and etc, all I do is scan them for a second for key words as I go down the thread…otherwise it’s like watching the rat go round and round and round and round and round and round it’s wheel cage.

    Reply

  103. marcus says:

    It is very obvious to everyone who the real traitors are,everyone who doesn`t have their head (or something else) up their ass that is,
    The real traitors are those americans who side against Israel and with the terrorists who target israel and the entire western world,they who side with the theocracys and kleptocracies and against israel. the ones on the side of un-elected “KINGS”??and tryrants and against Israel.They side with the unelected UN and against Israel,they side with EVERYONE of AMERICAS enemies and against ……. GUESS WHO ?

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  104. nadine says:

    marcus, the alternative to Hashemite Rule in Jordan would be Islamist rule a la Hamas. Be careful what you wish for.
    When King Abdullah says “the region will become unstable” what he really means is “MY throne will become unstable”. He is being squeezed between a rising tide of Islamism and a US administration that believes in being nasty to friends and nice to enemies. He has to applaud the idea of the US coming like some deus ex machina to “impose” a deal, knowing that what sunk all previous deals was not the failure of the Americans to offer a “creative solution” but the failure of the Palestinians to accept the American solution or to propose any solution of their own.
    That’s the problem with the two state solution. The party that supposedly has the most to gain by it – the Palestinians – not only always says NO but seems to think time is on their side. THEY don’t think the status quo is so terrible; they think it’s working to their advantage. Are they nuts or are we missing a big part of the problem here?
    Whose army is going to “impose” a state on Fatah and Hamas, when they say, “hey, we didn’t sign this deal, we don’t agree to anything”? Have the Arab states ever leaned on the Palestinians behind the scenes to sit down and deal? No, they have not. Is it different now? No, we’re just getting another Arab variation on “we’re helpless, you have to come here and impose some order on us.” They don’t add, “so we can thank you by trying to kill you some more” but experienced Mideast hands know it’s coming.

    Reply

  105. Carroll says:

    Any way we can know which congressional members were at the King’s meeting? I like to know their remarks and reactions, if any.
    We all know that even before Bush’s invasion of Iraq the US had already lost it’s reputation because of our support of Israel’s actions. The majority of the world ‘does’ view them as the midget nazis of the 21th century and ‘is’ disgusted with the US for enabling this and understands our government is corrupted by the US zionist political influence.
    Obama has a chance to change this but he would have to be much, much bolder and go against congress and his own party’s financial political
    interest. I don’t know that he can or will do this…unless we the public start lighting some fires and make sure Israel is an issue in the next election.
    I am starting by calling these foreign loyalist congresspeople who support Israel what they are …Traitors…on the net, in the public, in letters to them, phone calls, faxes, letters to the Editor, anywhere and everywhere I have an opportunity. This week our main library is having the author of an academic book on the ME as their guest lecturer..I am going to be there with my own F&A to make sure all who attend leave with the facts on how congress has sold out America for zionist campaign donations and foreign interest. Everyone who can should do something similar if an opportunity presents, it’s better than a full page ad in the NYT, you’re talking to your own community, people who know you, people who are then going to be personally talking to other people about what they heard. This is the way to spread the word on Israel and our congressional traitors for the grassroots public who aren’t in the DC circle or the major metropolitan centers where there are organized venues for the public on the Israel and I/P issue.

    Reply

  106. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Marcus seems unable to surmount his overwhelming compulsion to make an ass of himself.
    And John, I too occassionally wonder at certain biases I seem to detect in Steve’s opinions. But it also quite amusing seeing bigots accuse Steve of bigotry through thinly disguised insinuation. It laughable that this slimey and bigoted armchair zionist and jackboot would accuse Steve of bigotry against Arabs.

    Reply

  107. JohnH says:

    Good post, Wigwag. Why hold Arabs to a lesser standard? I have long wondered about Steve’s position on democracy.
    As for marcus’ statement, ‘Jordan is the new palestian state’ is like saying, ‘Arkansas is the new Texan state.’ Utter BS!!!

    Reply

  108. marcus says:

    The issue of a palestian state is settled Jordan is the new palestian state,Kick that bum out(“King abdullah”and his expensive trophy Queen their little princes and princesses,the whole cruumy lot)) NO MORE BOWING AND SCRAPING TO UNELECTED MONARCHS/TYRANTS would be a good foriegn policy inititive for this administration.
    Long Live the PALESTIAN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF JORDAN

    Reply

  109. WigWag says:

    “As Haim Ramon once told me, if this issue of a Palestinian state is not soon resolved, Israel will either have to forfeit its status as a “democracy” or as a “Jewish state.” That sounds like a paramount issue to me.” (Steve Clemons from next post down)
    I like King Abdullah, II too. But I wonder if Steve is as concerned about the status of democracy in Jordan as he is about democracy in Israel. And if not, why not? I also wonder how much Steve has paid attention to the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan. Does he think this is important or does he hold Arabs to a lesser standard? If he does hold Arabs to a different standard what does this reveal about what the thinks about Arabs?

    Reply

  110. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I have heard King Abdullah speak on this subject at the Clinton Global Initiative — after which President Bill Clinton and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan followed up saying that the paralysis on Mideast peace talks is harming everyone’s interests and must be kicked back to life”
    Unfortunately, what Bill Clinton says does not drive policy. Now this mutinous crone Hillary, who seems to be exempt from your commentary and criticism, is another story. Perhaps one day, when you are feeling particularly driven to actually be the “realist” you like to market yourself as, Steve, you will give us an honest appraisal of Hillary’s amazing ability to deliver NOTHING as her role of Secretary of State.
    And what do you think of her consistent “Yeah, we’ll engage with you, but it won’t work so we’re gonna screw ya anyway” kind of bizzarro diplomacy? Ya gotta love this bit with Syria, when she invited them in for a hug, as long as they “severed their relationship with Iran”. What planet does she live on, and whats the point in such blatantly asinine and unrealistic requests or expectations???? Why even mouth such idiocy?
    Ya don’t even gotta get detailed and specific. How about telling us about just ONE foreign policy fish she’s landed thats actually edible or of a size worth keeping?

    Reply

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