John Bolton: Setting Up the Lebanon-Deployed UN Force for Failure

-

boltonhands.jpg
John Bolton spent four months and made approximately 70 journalist and editorialist calls setting low expectations for the embryonic UN Human Rights Council.
Had he spent nearly this amount of effort working to actually secure a Human Rights Council that met American expectations, we would probably have succeeded far beyond expectations.
John Bolton is now undermining the UN international force to be deployed in Lebanon.
Here is the latest:

U.S. involvement in a peacekeeping force is likely to be limited to just logistics support, and U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton suggested to reporters Tuesday that other nations are not eager to commit troops to the 15,000-man force.
“I think that obviously the decisions have to be made by individual countries and their taking into account the circumstances of the mission, the extent of the mandate, the operational difficulties. I did see a story from — I suppose I should say one wire service from Rome today quoting an Italian military official as being rather skeptical of being involved in a U.N. force. But in any event, this really is a responsibility of the Secretariat. We’re doing everything we can to help support the generation of new contributions, but that’s what the Department of Peacekeeping Operations really is there to do,” Bolton said.

John Bolton never misses a chance to set the UN up for failure. That’s his job, as Dick Cheney sees it.
A successful operation in Lebanon — before the November elections — would be bad for the President, and John Bolton knows who butters his bread.
More later.

— Steve Clemons

Comments

148 comments on “John Bolton: Setting Up the Lebanon-Deployed UN Force for Failure

  1. hoodia weight loss says:

    There are widespread reports of counterfeit hoodia products. Mike Adams of News Target, estimates that 80 percent of hoodia products are contaminated or counterfeit. It is impossible to know if a hoodia product contains pure hoodia and the active ingredient, unless it has been tested by an independent laboratory.
    http://hoodia.weightloss.lt/hoodia-review.php

    Reply

  2. bruce says:

    den you and your sandniggar pals need a 2000lber right on your head traitor.

    Reply

  3. oxvcafq kjhcbotzl says:

    nawykpbh kxfnqbmj vuqhbpx evohni gjyohxnu xldb pyisrwa

    Reply

  4. jsoklgpt hteio says:

    euvmn dacbire kzfj escmjz purmct lzcywsku jwxsakfi

    Reply

  5. Pissed Off American says:

    Well and done. Let us now go off to other threads and bedevil other topics. Let fly the slings and arrows by all means, but let us keep close to our bosoms the virtues of chivalry and courtesy. It is a cruel world that closes in upon us all, and though we may by needs drink from that cup of malice, a cold supper and thin gruel does it make.
    Posted by Den Valdron
    Good lord, Den. I gotta chuckle. I can’t figure out which is more gut wrenching, mlaw’s condescension, or your occassional pretension. Factor in my obnoxiousness, and we have all the makings of one fine barroom brawl.

    Reply

  6. Den Valdron says:

    Well and done. Let us now go off to other threads and bedevil other topics. Let fly the slings and arrows by all means, but let us keep close to our bosoms the virtues of chivalry and courtesy. It is a cruel world that closes in upon us all, and though we may by needs drink from that cup of malice, a cold supper and thin gruel does it make.

    Reply

  7. MP says:

    Okay…”Uncle.”

    Reply

  8. Den Valdron says:

    Well, MP, this thread has gone on long enough. At this point, there’s no real merit to going on about right or wrong, who started it and who is to blame. I think that we can all just move on.
    Surrender, salvage a little dignity for yourself, and we’ll call it a day. Or do you have another ‘go fuck yourself’ rattling around in there somewhere?
    Seriously though, surrender.

    Reply

  9. MP says:

    “I tried the high road with you. You asked for proof of voter fraud and suppression, and I provided you with three excellent sources through which to examine the proofs. From that point onward you IGNORED the issue, DENIED the issue, and SKIRTED the issue. How are we to find any conviction in your arguments when you challenge information, yet after the challenge is met you turn tail and hide from the very information you sought?”
    Untrue. I did not. And I do not. What I have denied (and supported with some proof) is that it is useless to vote…that one’s vote simply doesn’t count. Or that it is useless to work for good candidates. That appeared to me to be your position. I think it’s wrong. I don’t deny that there are serious problems with our electoral system, including tamperable and tampered voting machines and vote suppression. Never, ever said that. And if I gave you that impression, I’m sorry; I didn’t mean to, because I don’t believe it.
    “And when we do not accept your formulas as constructive or effective, you resort to belittlement and condescension, STILL refusing to actually engage the issues.”
    Sorry, I don’t believe that giving books to libraries, talking to friends, or posting links is going to set the world on fire. I don’t think it’s as good as working for good candidates or running oneself as a change candidate. I am also a moderate. We have a difference of opinion on this point. So what?
    The condescension, I believe, was given as good as got. And I never suggested you weren’t “a man” or incapable of weeping at tragedy as has been suggested about me. This crosses into new territory and is not very flattering to your Canadian brother.
    Nor would I ever say this kind of thing to someone I didn’t know. Based on what I’ve read, I believe that you, Carroll, and Den (though not a US citizen) are passionate about justice and have posted a lot of things that I have found informative and thought-provoking. I’ve said as much on a number of occasions. However, we also disagree on a number of points. And I’m not going to STFU–as you so frequently and delicately put it–just because you don’t agree with what I have to say.

    Reply

  10. Den Valdron says:

    MP,
    I know you very well by your comments. Unfortunately, all too much of you is on display.
    Sadly, there’s very little to that all too much.
    And I was right. You read it, but did not weep. So it seems, I do have your number.
    Amusingly, having backed yourself into a corner with that prima donna ‘You don’t really know me!’ defense, more appropriate for emotionally fragile porn stars, you decide to counterattack by claiming that you know me… that you see into my soul, that you see hidden wells of guilt which motivate me. Yes, all those facts and figures, all that remorseless logic, it all traces back to something wrong with my feelings? ROTFL. Guilt? Ah yes, because obviously, no normal person cares about issues, about Justice, no normal person employs logic or relies on facts or figures. Such a person, who is quite unlike you, must be motivated by something, there must be some personal problem, a hidden trauma. So let’s avoid the issue with some dime store psychology!
    So, I don’t know you. But you know me. And facts and figures and logic don’t matter. Consistency, ol buddy, ol pal, ol egg, is not your strong suit!
    But lets get back to the issue. I supplied you with an airtight case of racism in America. A modern day legislated racism in seven states that selects for blacks and hispanics and the poor, that violates the constitution. That unquestionably affected the 2000 election for the worse, that affected and continues to affect other elections. At the heart of this case, was the use of racism by the Republicans to win election, and the abandonment of Democrats of a core constituency. It went to the heart of the integrity of America.
    And what did you offer up in return?
    Excuses. Snark. Condescension. Tired trite platitudes. Martin Luther King would have had no trouble recognizing you.

    Reply

  11. Pissed Off American says:

    “Sorry, Den, you have no idea who I am……”
    You have misrepresented yourself here? We are not to draw conclusions through the examination of your words?
    In light of the comments you have made to Carroll and I about the ineffectiveness of our actions, don’t you think such an attitude is somewhat hypocritical?? You do not know Carroll or I beyond this forum either, yet you have drawn conclusions as to the extent of our activism, haven’t you??
    You know what, MP? You’re an empty windbag.
    Dismissed.

    Reply

  12. Pissed Off American says:

    “The blog should be a place to share information, ideas, and perspectives. Instead it becomes a forum for personal attacks whose purpose is..what? Changing hearts? Minds?”
    Posted by MP
    The condescension and insult that your sarcasm has exhibited went unanswered by most here for a fair amount of time. How long did you really think it would take before someone shoved it back in your faces?
    I tried the high road with you. You asked for proof of voter fraud and suppression, and I provided you with three excellent sources through which to examine the proofs. From that point onward you IGNORED the issue, DENIED the issue, and SKIRTED the issue. How are we to find any conviction in your arguments when you challenge information, yet after the challenge is met you turn tail and hide from the very information you sought?
    I see neither you NOR mlaw providing us with any outside sourcing to provide solid foundations for your empty formulas for change. You offer nothing more than the same old stale talking points that have served as a rationale for inaction, apathy, and disengagemment that we have been listening to for decades now. And when we do not accept your formulas as constructive or effective, you resort to belittlement and condescension, STILL refusing to actually engage the issues.
    You scoff at the unanswered questions behind 9/11, yet offer no answers.
    You deny or question figures and data, yet supply no figures and data to replace them.
    I could continue this commentary on your techniques and tactics for a number of paragraphs, but what is the point? If you do not know by now, as an adult, that using condescension and diversionary argument will eventually lead to anger and derision from the targets of your tactics, then you will undoubtedly NEVER get it.

    Reply

  13. MP says:

    “They just didn’t think we would see it.”
    Oh yeah…I’m REALLY scared you’re going to find me out. Specially NOW. I feel so…chastened by your penetrating view.

    Reply

  14. Pissed Off American says:

    “h, and there it is. Underneath all the complacency, all the condescension, underneath your lies, your sophistries, your evasions, your excuses….”
    “right down deep, we finally get the real you, the honest answer.”
    Both he and mlaw have been saying that all along. They just didn’t think we would see it. The condescension displayed by mlaw was the exact same message, albiet offered without honesty or integrity.

    Reply

  15. MP says:

    “If you were a man, these words would make you weep. But I do not believe that these words will make you weep.”
    Sorry, Den, you have no idea who I am or what I have done and am doing now for my community or my country. But you have a lot of self-righteous, presumptuous prejudice, based largely on twisting my words and outright invective toward me–someone you don’t even know.
    Maybe you’re trying expiate your feelings of guilt for…who knows what. Maybe if you slam me enough, denigrate who you think I am, you will somehow feel better that you’ve struck a blow for truth and justice. It’s sad.
    The blog should be a place to share information, ideas, and perspectives. Instead it becomes a forum for personal attacks whose purpose is..what? Changing hearts? Minds?

    Reply

  16. Den Valdron says:

    Ah, and there it is. Underneath all the complacency, all the condescension, underneath your lies, your sophistries, your evasions, your excuses….
    Right down deep, we finally get the real you, the honest answer. This is your answer to black oppression, to 9/11, to Iraq, to torture, none of which things actually bothered you, or at least, didn’t bother you enough.
    “Go fuck yourself”
    Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it? It’s pretty succinct, nicely compact, does such a good job of sidestepping all those inconvenient facts, those awkward realities.
    “Go fuck yourself”
    I like it. Mind if I use it sometime?
    In the meantime, allow me to leave you with a passage from Dr. Martin Luther King’s letter from a Birmingham jail, in which he addressed a group of people whose attitudes were not unlike yours…
    “I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
    I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fan in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with an its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.”
    If you were a man, these words would make you weep. But I do not believe that these words will make you weep.
    Nevertheless, I commend them to you, and the whole of Dr. King’s letter. Contemplate it and reflect on the application of his words to your own life and time.

    Reply

  17. MP says:

    “The problem is that people like you don’t. ”
    Go fuck yourself.

    Reply

  18. Den Valdron says:

    The reality is that all you’ve got there is a lot of evasions and excuses to justify your own racism. It’s disapointing. Uncle Tom is a good name.
    ‘Felon Voting Laws’ in Florida and other states are clear racism. There’s no other description for it.
    The fact that some Floridans may not believe its racist cuts no ice. Alabamans used to argue that their Jim Crow laws and segregation weren’t racist. The test is not belief, sincerely held or otherwise, the test amounts to the nuts and bolts facts. In this case, racist history + racist intent + racist effect = racist.
    Your next argument seems to be a variation of ‘nobody cares.’ Or ‘Floridans don’t care.’ I imagine that the black voters left who can still vote care a great deal.
    But the truth is that polls show that 80% of the American population oppose the lifetime felon bans. People do care.
    The problem is that people like you don’t. And the problem is that the Democrats have been so dismissive of their black constituency that they don’t seem to care. During the 2000 campaign, Al Gore declined to meet with black voters groups.
    “Well,” you offer up as a pathetic bleat, “felons don’t want to vote anyway!” Not your exact words, but it amounts to the sentiment.
    Sorry, that doesn’t justify using a legislature to unconstitutionally and unethically strip the voting rights away from any class of people. You aren’t entitled to say what this class of people does or does not want. They have a right identified in and protected under the constitution of the United States. Whether they exercise that right is their prerogative, not yours and not Jeb Bush.
    The rest of your argument, such as it is (and it doesn’t really amount to an argument) consists of recycled tripe, tired bleating that I’m mean to you and I use facts and figures and that this is very unfair to me. And why can’t things just work out the way you want. And just because people are being unconstitutionally deprived of their vote, well it probably wouldn’t change anything so what does it matter. And you do, you do believe in fairies (change), and the way to do it is to clap your hands together and say very sincerely (but not loudly, don’t want to disturb the Republicans) I do believe in justice.
    Ooh that’s so cute. Unfortunately, it isn’t meaningful. And it isn’t helpful.
    We’ve been hearing this nonsense from people like you for a decade now. It hasn’t helped. The situation has grown steadily more toxic and all you ever offer up is excuses and condescension.
    Well, guess what bucko. I don’t have your answers, and I’m not required to have them. I’m not obliged to solve your problems or even to reassure you that they’re solveable.
    What I am here to do is acquaint you with Mister Reality, with whom I am on a first name basis. I give you facts. And you come back, complaining of my lawyerly ways, my insistence on facts and logic, and you bleat that it doesn’t really matter and nobody cares.
    Read your own post and try and explain to yourself how you aren’t really part of the problem. Me, I’m through trying to be nice.

    Reply

  19. Pissed Off American says:

    “Reforming election laws and procedures requires that we elect folks who will do that. ”
    Posted by MP
    There he goes again. Is it possibkle he can’t see how ludicrous that statement is???
    “Your vote ain’t working, so vote to fix it.”

    Reply

  20. MP says:

    Sorry…I meant to say that the Virginia race was “in no way certain.” It was a VERY close race, a real nail biter.

    Reply

  21. MP says:

    Den writes: “And what was your response? No one cares and it doesn’t matter. And you wonder why your country is so messed up?How you treat, and the respect you give to the poorest and least among you, is the measurement of your worth as a nation.”
    I assume you’re talking to me. What makes you think that was my response? What makes you think I don’t care about the poorest among us? I will say that the Florida debacle politicized me to a whole new level. Take that for what it’s worth. Whole lot of unfounded assumptions here, Den. This side of your argumentation I find a bit weird.
    I appreciate your analysis of the Florida situation. I don’t have the figures at my fingertips, but I’m happy to go with yours for the sake of argument. I will say a few things:
    • Reforming election laws and procedures requires that we elect folks who will do that. Or that enough folks make the people in power feel that their power (office) is in jeopardy if they continue on the same path. Almost the same thing.
    • The felon laws are racist or at least feed on our racism, but you won’t convince a lot of Floridians of that fact, I believe. They are as tired of being called racist as many people on this site are tired of being called anti-Semites. Both may be true–but you don’t get a lot of white folk down south marching to eliminate laws that could be construed as racist or as just not letting bad people control their fate.
    • In this day and age, it’s not clear to me that white felons or black felons are going to vote one way or another. If Florida’s Republican legislature gives former felons the vote, who knows? they might decide that Republicans are the good guys. I do believe in a port in any storm, but then you will have an even more entrenched Republican legislature doing all sorts of things we don’t like. My point is this: Freeing felons to vote, though a good in itself, is far from a sure thing, which is NOT a reason NOT to do it. (More on this point later.) Nor is it sure to have the consequences you think it will.
    • Further to this…when I was manning a table for Tim Kaine for Virginia governor…the only person who harassed us on the issue of illegal immigration (objectively not a huge issue here) was a black guy. You couldn’t have a sensible conversation with him, and he marched right over to the Jerry “Kill ‘Em All” Kilgore’s table where he signed up to give and get out the vote. He’s only one person to be sure, but my point is, it’s hard to be sure where folks will line up when they go into the voting booth. Especially these days.
    • As I’m sure you know, most of Virginia is pretty red. Jerry Kilgore is an old-fashioned capital punishment guy. Tim Kaine made no secret of his opposition to capital punishment. It was a tough race, but we won–even though all the machines were fixed and we ain’t got the vote. We also managed to elect the first black governor, Doug Wilder, a while back. And we had a pretty good middle way governor, Warner, just before Kaine. All in the heart of the Confederacy. So, yes, this does give me hope. And efforts like this do seem worthwhile to me.
    • You’re a bit dismissive of the Cuban vote, I’d say. They are very organized and vote together, which gives them a lot of power. Not insurmountable power, but a lot. And they vote. A lot of other folks, including blacks, don’t vote nearly as much. And it’s not all about felon laws. Should they vote? You bet. And THAT has been my argument all along. That is why I participate, and my family participates, in voter drives.
    • Further to the Hispanic vote, you are right in the main. But this group is susceptible to the “family values” appeal and the anti-abortion appeal. They will continue to vote Democratic, I believe, but I’m not sure they are as solidly Democratic as, say, the Jews are.
    • Even if Gore had won (he did, of course, but let’s continue…) he would still have presided over a very divided country. He would still have needed to build coalitions, unless you’re suggesting (and I know you’re not) that he should have governed George Bush/Saddam Hussein-style, doing whatever the hell he wanted to do. It would have been wrong of him to simply appeal to the base. That, in fact, is a big part of the problem we face now, folks appealing just to their base. That’s what George does.
    • So, yes, I’m all FOR reforming the election laws and practices. Do I think it’ll make the kind of difference you’re predictingr? Probably not. Do I think it’s right to do and worth working for because it’s the right thing to do? Yes, I do.
    • Part of our philosophical disagreement here is this: You believe that compromise and building coalitions means one is compromising one’s values and principles. I don’t. I don’t, because even when one compromises at step one, there is still step two. You keep working. You keep chipping away. It’s always a back and forth: Sometimes you draw a line in the sand; sometimes you give ground. Look, FDR, arguably the most progressive and effective president we had in the 20th century, made HUGE compromises on the race issue. In fact, I’m not sure he even believed in equality for blacks, though I’m pretty sure his wife did. But he did a huge amount of good for blacks for a lot of Americans and he knew what to do to get a lot of southerners to go along with his “socialist” policies.
    • And you keep hoping. So here’s the offending word that sent us all off to the races in the first place. My reading of mlaw–and certainly my use of the word “hope”–is NOT to suggest one sits back and does nothing and hopes that things work themselves out. I hope I’ve made that clear. No, you keep working and hope that your work bears fruit. And the right kind of fruit. I try to avoid incendiary language because I believe it simply sends people to an opposite extreme. The boat never gets righted but simply tips over in the opposite direction. And all of this DOES depend on some kind of faith in the system. Which is to say…all one’s work PRESUPPOSES a basic faith in the system and that the system itself, if people attend to it, will help us move forward.
    • And finally, who is derisive of whom here? It’s pretty clear to me that POA has been derisive of anyone who believes his vote counts, even though we showed that it does (or at least can) here in Virginia in a race that was in no way close and in a state that was no way blue. But you gotta be smart and tough, and Kaine was and is, whereas Kerry was not. And you, Den, have clearly been derisive of anyone who thinks things simply are not lost down south of the border. You heap up a lot of facts to prove your point, but you also work the facts to prove your point as any good lawyer would do. Perhaps you like Schadenfreude too much, I don’t know, maybe even more than positive change.
    So, Carroll, my point is this: I’m in favor of doing all sorts of things to change the system, including giving books to libraries. And POA, I’m in favor of posting lots of eye-opening links, and I can tell you that I personally appreciate the information you bring to the fore. And Den, I’m an avid reader of your posts, here and elsewhere. Your analyses are very thought-provoking.
    BUT, I find it astounding that you would heap abuse on folks who are committed to making “the system” work. You make us sound like Uncle Toms, if not Peeping Toms. And that’s where I have to do a few quick comparisons: My daughter has spent the last month scrutinizing over 60,000 “Green Party” petition names trying to foil an obvious Santorum dirty trick to draw votes away from Casey. Is Casey the candidate of her dreams? Hardly. Does she see some irony in doing battle against the Green Party and for a guy who doesn’t support abortion rights? You bet. Is she willing to risk bodily harm from an angry Santorumite (think Bolton down in Florida) to make the system work? I can barely pry her away for three days at the beach before she goes back to school.
    So, when I compare my daughter to Carroll–who talks about “sticking it to man” and changing the system with angry outbursts–but who, in fact, confines herself to giving books to a library and talking to her friends and writing letters to congress –not that, as Jerry Seinfeld would say, there is anything wrong with that–yes, I do have to laugh and a bit derisively. Sorry, it’s not my usual way.

    Reply

  22. Den Valdron says:

    As for 9/11, I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I will make a few observations.
    – The Bush administration abandoned actions against Al Quaeda when it came into power. This included ditching a plan by NSA staff to take the organization apart. Had this been followed, 9/11 might never have happened.
    – The Bush administration chose not to make any response to Al Quaeda’s attack on the USS Cole, in the words of Condoleeza Rice at the 9/11 commission, they didn’t want to ‘provoke’ Al Quaeda. Perhaps if they had, 9/11 might not have happened.
    – The Bush administration shelved the Hart/Rudman report on air safety, which contained a number of measures including better screening and strengthening cockpit doors. Had these recommendations been taken seriously in whole or in part, 9/11 might not have happened.
    – Prior to 9/11, the United States received warnings from Israel, Egypt, Turkey, Russia, England, France, Germany and Pakistan that a terorist attack was eminent.
    – On August 6, 2001, barely a month before 9/11, President Bush received a security brief entitled “Bin Laden Intends to Strike Inside the United States.” His only response? “Okay, you’ve covered your ass.”
    Do you feel any of this was satisfactory behaviour? How about this.
    – On 9/11 four hijacked aircraft cruised through the most heavily trafficked, heavily monitored and allegedly heavily guarded skies on the planet for a full EIGHTY MINUTES before toddling into one or another building.
    Is this satisfactory?
    – At no point did the US form a coherent response. By the time the ‘shoot to kill’ order was issued the last plane had fallen out of the skay.
    Is this satisfactory?
    – The President of the United States was informed of the first airplane crash into the world trade tower. Despite knowing about the August 6 memo, despite various warnings, despite the previous experience of the attack on the WTC, and despite the potential even in an innocent situation of a major loss of life… he decided to go on into the school for a photo op.
    Is this satisfactory?
    – It was not until the second plane crashed into the second WTC tower that the President chose to act. His first act was to freeze for seven minutes.
    Is this satisfactory?
    – The Presidents next act was to run and hide like a scared rabbit, fleeing first to Air Force 1, then fleeing to Louisiana, and then to a bunker in Nebraska, during the most critical period of national disaster in decades.
    Is this satisfactory?
    – Condoleeza Rice later said that no one could have imagined using planes as missiles. Notwithstanding that there were previous foiled terrorist plots which had exactly that idea, and notwithstanding that this was the plot of books and movies going back to the 1960’s. Ms Rice was apparently colossally stupid, or rampantly dishonest.
    Was that acceptable to you?
    – The Bush Administration deliberately withheld safety information from rehabilitation workers. The result is that many of those who worked on clearing away the debris and disasters of 9/11 now have health problems and lung impairment.
    Does this make you happy?
    – The Federal government initiated an emergency loans program to help businesses damaged or affected by 9/11. Less than 11% of the loans went to New York. Most of it went to Republican districts and Republican contributors.
    Are you okay with that?
    – Tora Bora. Enough said.
    Thrilled?
    – Bush said on several occasions that he was not concerned with Osama Bin Laden, the author of 9/11.
    Acceptable?
    One does not have to believe in conspiracies to find 9/11 an objectionable case of incompetence and negligence worthy of impeachment.
    No one in any chain of command regarding responsibility for 9/11 has ever been disciplined for negligence or incompetence. It was medals all around.
    And yet it is hard to find one facet of this disaster, either before, during or after, which did not feature outrageously bad or inept conduct by the Bush administration.

    Reply

  23. Den Valdron says:

    I’m not sure whether my previous post on voter suppression is going to get through. Steve might torpedo it. Even if it does make it through, I want to boil it down a little further.
    There are rougly 25 million blacks in the United States. Discounting youth and the mentally disadvantaged, this gives us a voting population of approximately 16 to 17 million, or roughly 2/3rds. For the hell of it, round it up to 20 million.
    2 million of this population have had their voting rights suspended by reason of felony conviction. This is 10% to 15% of the black population. Studies show that there is a further 8% ripple effect in black communities.
    So the real effect is more like 18% to 25%. I’m just going rough ballpark here, so you can understand how the numbers are trending.
    Now, differences in felon voting laws mean that the effects on black populations vary from state to state. In two states, there is no impact at all and 0% of blacks are disenfranchised. Felon voting laws have the most disproportionate impacts in the seven states which have lifetime prohibitions.
    Estimates in Florida for instance, claim up to 800,000 felons without the right to vote. 60% are black. This gives us a population of as many as roughly 500,000 blacks prohibited from voting, with de facto voter suppression affecting another 250,000 to 500,000. Say a maximum of 1,000,000.
    Florida’s population is 18 million. Blacks make up roughly 15% of that. The black population of Florida is therefore around 2.5 million. Not all of these are of voting age. Lets assume that the black voting age population is 1.8 million.
    What this seems to show is that anywhere from 30% to 60% of the black voting age population of Florida is impacted or adversely affected by Felon Voting laws.
    Now you can quibble with my numbers. I certainly encourage you to get out your calculator, go and do your own homework, and show me your own numbers.
    But even if you come back with 20% to 25% of the black population of Florida impacted by Felon voting laws, think about the consequences of that. This is a major voter disenfranchisement.
    This is also a vote disenfranchisement which heavily targets race, and after race, class. The white folks that are getting hit are poor white folks, not soccer moms.
    But they’re felons right? Should they even be allowed to vote? Two things: First, a felon who has paid his debt to society has paid his debt to society, period. Second, ever hear of ‘driving while black’? The criminal justice system disproportionately targets blacks for investigation and arrest, disproportionately convicts, and disproportionately sentences blacks. Anyone involved, Judges, D.A.’s, Defense attorneys, sociologists, etc. will tell you that the system targets blacks, though some will argue about the racist freight involved. But to impose Felon voting restrictions in a system which already is known to single out blacks is simply overt racism.
    As many as 1000 times as many black people were legally or illegally disenfranchised as were being contested as the winning margin in all of Florida in 2000.
    These were blacks who as a group, voted 90% for Gore. Which means that without the covert Jim Crow racism of the Felon Voting prohibition, Gore would have won Florida by a margin of 300,000 to 500,000 votes.
    Think about that. If you do not experience crushing moral outrage at that thought… well, you’re certainly not black. More than that, you probably have no moral spine at all.
    Now it might be that without Felon voting laws in, Florida say, the 60% of disenfranchised blacks might have been outweighed by the 40% of the felon population who were white, hispanic or asian.
    Of course, hispanics in most places are generally likely to vote Democrat. Even in Florida, where there are Republican voting Cubans, they are only a part of that constituency, along with Mexicans, Central Americans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, etc. Hispanics are usually disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system.
    Meanwhile, poor whites, who make up the rest of the prohibited from voting class are at least as likely to vote Democrat as Republican.
    The effect is racial disenfranchisement specifically targeting Democratic voters.
    Now, what was the challenge: “Show me a good, effective, moral way to change government and country.”
    Well, there you go. Fair voting. Eliminate or reform felon voting laws which are inherently and deliberately racist, and you eliminate a problem right there. You also eliminate racist and fraudulent voter purges.
    More people get the right to vote, and will probably vote Democrat, than all the soccer moms in the country.
    Is it moral to eliminate an unethical and racist voter disenfranchisement system which invites corruption and biases the system in favour of one party?
    Of course it is.
    Will it be effective?
    Given the fact that it clearly decided the 2000 Florida Election and seven senate races, of course it will be. It will potentially change the Senate and the House’s character in clear and definite ways.
    Will it be good?
    Well, if your a racist, it will probably be bad. If you are a Republican, it will probably be bad. On the other hand, if you are black, poor or hispanic, it will probably be good. If you believe that these constituencies have been ignored and treated bady, it will be good. If you feel that the current bunch of thugs has been bad, then trumping their voting base is good.
    And what was your response?
    No one cares and it doesn’t matter.
    And you wonder why your country is so messed up?
    How you treat, and the respect you give to the poorest and least among you, is the measurement of your worth as a nation.

    Reply

  24. Den Valdron says:

    Replying to MP in terms of his half baked notions on Felon voting…
    – Felons have never been permitted to vote.
    Moronic bullshit on your part, and not accurate. Felon voting prohibitions are not universal in the United States, but rather, vary from state to state.
    Currently, seven states provide for lifetime prohibitions from felons voting. Two states have no prohibitions at all. The remainder fall at different points along the spectrum.
    The evidence is that Felon voting laws began in the deep south as Jim Crow laws, or as substitutes for Jim Crow laws, with the clear intention of disenfranchising blacks and discouraging their vote.
    Blacks represent 40 to 60% of those disenfranchised by the voter suppression legislation. Given that blacks form only 10% of the population, the effect is that blacks are 10 to 15 times more likely to be denied the vote for felony convictions. Nationally, out of five million voters who have lost their voting rights because of felony conviction, approximately 40% are black.
    Because felon voting laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, their impact is most disproportionate in the seven states which provide for lifetime prohibitions. The result is that a significant portion of the black populations in those states is legally disenfranchised.
    For instance, in florida, this amounts to approximately 400,000 blacks. This is a staggering number when you consider that in the Florida election in 2000, only a handful of votes were at stake.
    In 2000, it is calculated that felon voting prohibitions affected the Presidential race and at least seven senate races.
    Moreover, the simple fact that felon voting prohibitions target blacks has a ripple effect.
    “One of the most interesting contributions to this literature was a 22-page article in the Virginia Journal of Social Policy & the Law, published by the University of Virginia School of Law. The article analyzed the ripple effect of felon voting laws?not just on people who’ve been convicted of a felony, but on their neighbors, friends, and family members, too.
    The authors found that the probability of voting was equal among blacks and whites who were eligible to vote and who lived in states with the least restrictive felony disenfranchisement laws. But in states with the most restrictive laws, there was a notable difference: Participation among eligible blacks dropped by about 8 percent. The article contends that this discovery shows “the damage that criminal disenfranchisement laws . . . have on social networks and their ability to encourage non-disenfranchised individuals to exercise their right to vote.”
    http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0441,gonnerman,57500,1.html
    See what I mean? Its racist voter suppression.
    Canada doesn’t prohibit felon voting. Neither does Israel. Or England. Or Australia. France. Germany.
    Felon voting prohibitions have a distinctly American tradition, and that tradition is rooted in racism and vote suppression.
    – and nobody believes your calculations of the numbers of wrongly disenfranchised.
    Wrong again, bucko.
    “1. Scope: How many people are affected? Approximately 5.3 million Americans were affected by these laws in November 2004 (2.0 million were African American). For earlier estimates, see Christopher Uggen & Jeff Manza. 2002. “Democratic Contraction? The Political Consequences of Felon Disenfranchisement in the United States.” American Sociological Review 67:777-803.
    Impact: Do felon voting laws affect elections? Yes, but only in close Republican victories in states with very strict laws. Felon voting bans likely affected the 2000 presidential election and 7 U.S. Senate elections.
    See also: Also American Sociological Review 67:777-803.”
    http://www.soc.umn.edu/~uggen/FD_summary.htm
    Florida: “In 2000, blacks in this crucial swing state voted for Al Gore in unprecedented numbers, a whopping 92%. Current polls indicate they are even less enamored with George W. Bush this time around. State Democrats are abuzz with suspicions about how Gov. Jeb Bush and his handpicked secretary of state, Glenda Hood, will limit the effect of black voters Nov. 2. Though the state has cultivated several voting techniques that favor Republicans – an emphasis on military and absentee ballots is one – no issue has been leveraged as successfully as its restrictive policy on ex-felons. One reason is that the Sunshine State holds the dubious honor of having one of the nation’s largest felon populations, about 5% of its total. Florida is one of seven states that imposes a lifetime ban on voting for ex-felons, barring an act of executive clemency. Currently, more than 600,000 ex-inmates, not including 82,000 in prison, are unable to vote in Florida. It is impossible to discuss this issue separate from race. In 2000, more than 58% of Florida’s ex-felons were African Americans.”
    http://www.laborlawtalk.com/showpost.php?p=567624&postcount=1
    – Its a loser of an issue as nobody cares about felons right to vote…
    Thus speaks the rich white boy…
    “Public Opinion: Does the public support strict felon voting restrictions? No. Our Harris poll showed that 80% favor returning voting rights to former felons once they complete their sentences, 60% favor reenfranchising parolees and probationers. Only 31%, however, favor allowing current prisoners to vote. See also: Jeff Manza, Clem Brooks, & Christopher Uggen. 2004. ?Public Attitudes Toward Felon Disenfranchisement in the United States.? Public Opinion Quarterly 68:276-87.”
    Well, the Democrats don’t care obviously. So much for the party that backed the civil rights act. It seems that blacks are once again a disposeable commodity, betrayed at will. This really is the point where you wear your moral bankruptcy on your sleeve, isn’t it?
    What you really mean is that you don’t care. As to why you don’t care, I’m happy to speculate. But the real point is that this issue goes straight to the integrity, or lack thereof, of your current political set up.
    – The extent people are placed on the list improperly that is obviously wrong and a revamping of election procedures, nationwide is in order.
    Uh huh. Really. Weren’t you just saying that no one cared?
    Hypocrite.
    Now, I could go on and dismantle every one of your responses. But what’s the point.
    More than half the time you are admitting that I’m right. Your problem is that you are happy to sit in your stew of corruption and moral bankruptcy, watching with amusement as your country goes to hell.
    You have no answers. Your solutions are bankrupt. Your indifference simply shows you up as part of the problem.

    Reply

  25. Pissed Off American says:

    Gee, this must be one of those issues that mlaw cites as lacking a popular concensus, eh????
    New Zogby Poll On Electronic Voting Attitudes
    Monday, 21 August 2006, 11:00 pm
    New Zogby Poll: It’s Nearly Unanimous
    Voters Insist On Right To Observe Vote Counting
    Plus Other Findings From This Unique Poll
    By Michael Collins
    “Scoop” Independent Media
    Part I of a II part series.
    Washington, DC
    A recent Zogby poll documents ground breaking information on the attitudes of American voters toward electronic voting. They are quite clear in the belief that the outcome of an entire election can be changed due to flaws in computerized voting machines. At a stunning rate of 92%, Americans insist on the right to watch their votes being counted. And, at an overwhelming 80%, they strongly object to the use of secret computer software to tabulate votes without citizen access to that software.
    continues at…
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00220.htm

    Reply

  26. Carroll says:

    POA…I think you nailed it in the post below.
    “Posted by Pissed Off American at August 21, 2006 07:52 PM”

    Reply

  27. Pissed Off American says:

    “….Clearly, Saddam chose to blame the sanctions for the privations and chose not to move resources, which he clearly had, to his people and away from his military……..”
    then:
    “My conclusion however, is that just as the administration expects that a bombing of Iran will make the Iranians rise up and blame the mullahs, so they expected the Iraqi people to blame Saddam for lack of food and medicine. So at some level we intended the sanctions to cause death and suffering of innocent Iraqies even if Saddam is equally to blame for letting it happen. In addition to being an inherently immoral strategy it also had the disadvantage of being monumentally stupid.”
    All in the same post, you advance a premise, then you call the policies based on that premise “stupid”.
    And the lies you cite are interesting. If I was to ponder the “lie” that really underscored the duplicity our government exhibited in the first gulf war, it would be the denials that we had given Saddam a wink and a nod when he stated his intentions to invade Kuwait to our ambassador. Saddam was set up, conned. He really believed we would stay out of it. We conned the guy into committing to a course of action that would provide the excuses for BOTH Gulf wars.
    I wonder, how many Iraqis pine for the rights, opportunities, and quality of life they had in Iraq prior to America’s meddling in their affairs, and the bloodbath we have inflicted on them using 16 years of false pretenses.
    If the UN report cited 75,000 DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN,instead of 500,000, would that be a more acceptable cost of the sanctions??? 25,000???? 190,000???
    How many died today???
    We have become everything we used to abhor. Den has it right. Monsters.

    Reply

  28. mlaw230 says:

    Gulf War I lies:
    1) The baby incubator story.
    2) Iraqi troops marshalled for run at Saudi oil fields story.
    3) Saddam saw himself as a modern Saludin (sp?)and hoped to conquer the mideast (rather than disputed border oil wells).
    4) My favorite, “jobs, jobs, jobs”
    Sanctions Regime: “were the sanctions responsible for the death of 500,000 Iraqi children?”
    Tough to answer precisely. Clearly, Saddam chose to blame the sanctions for the privations and chose not to move resources, which he clearly had, to his people and away from his military. The people no doubt believed that we are fully responsible (this is one of the major reasons I did not believe we would be greeted as “libertors”)
    On the other hand the sanctions also limited resources to the semi autonomous Kurdish regions and they did NOT apparently suffer the same kind of losses.
    Lastly, although the UN report is compelling that alot of children died as a result, it is only an estimate and there are a lot of other contributing reasons for these appalling loses.
    My conclusion however, is that just as the administration expects that a bombing of Iran will make the Iranians rise up and blame the mullahs, so they expected the Iraqi people to blame Saddam for lack of food and medicine. So at some level we intended the sanctions to cause death and suffering of innocent Iraqies even if Saddam is equally to blame for letting it happen. In addition to being an inherently immoral strategy it also had the disadvantage of being monumentally stupid.

    Reply

  29. Pissed Off American says:

    Give them a rational description of what you want to do and why it will work, and they will be listening.
    Posted by mlaw230
    Theres a guy that admits the electoral process is broken and corrupt, yet still advocates the vote as an instrument of change.
    And he wants “rational”????
    “Hey folks, they ain’t countin’ your vote, so be sure to stand up and not be counted!”

    Reply

  30. Pissed Off American says:

    “I also opposed the sanctions regime and before that Gulf War I, which was also sold with a menu of lies.”
    Posted by mlaw230
    I agree with the statement that the first Gulf War had a fair number of lies attached to it. But hey, I am a bit curious, WHAT lies are YOU speaking of. Be specific, please.
    Also, you state that the “sanction regime” was opposed by you as well. Does that mean that you accept the figures commonly cited as to the 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children as a direct result of the sanctions?

    Reply

  31. Carroll says:

    Give them a rational description of what you want to do and why it will work, and they will be listening.
    Posted by mlaw230 at August 21, 2006 07:46 PM”
    Well again mlaw I don’t think you have a real good understanding of human motivation…if people were mostly ultimately rational we wouldn’t be where we are and everyone would be driving black Fords. So stratch that theory.
    Even to people rational in the everyday sense of the term you could explain all day the big picture and pitfalls in our current corruption and they would still end up voting for benefits like ending the death tax or free health care for all depending on their own personal desires or needs.
    That ought to be obvious by looking at the “platforms’ of both parties.
    Unfortunately you have to make your appeal personal to reach the vast majority…they aren’t interested in what you want to do, they are interested in how it is going to affect them…now if you will do an essay on how to frame an appeal that convinces the majority that if one portion of the public suffers or goes down because of political corruption that they will ALL go down ..then you would be on to something.
    Sad to say but also obvious is the best way to unite people to take action or agree on a course of action is to engage their emotions, postive or negative. To get the majority to do anything outside their own individual narrow interest you have to give them a common enemy or a common cause.

    Reply

  32. Carroll says:

    “I will say this: Show me a good, effective, moral way to change our government and country, and I’ll be standing right next to you,”
    Well there in lies the rub, eh MP? ..some things are effective and moral and some are effective and immoral. I would say that throuout history there has come a point in most struggles between good and evil when the good has had to adopt the same jesuit theory of bad, that the ends justifies the means…
    So here’s an interesting quesiton for you…killing a human even in war is perhaps the worst thing another human would have to bear on his conscious unless of course he had none..but supposing he does….and you have the choice..you can send your son to do the dirty deed in a war and have him live with it forever…or you can spare your son, take the burden on yourself, assassinate some war monger responsible for the war to begin with to prevent it and live with your own killing on your own conscious….which is more moral? One is acting within the law, war that is, and one acting outside of the law..but which is more moral?
    This is an extreme example….but all along that path to that war where your son has to kill someone you have had opportunities to act out, defy the conventions, upset your own life, make a fool of yourself and do any number of things to try and prevent it, whether you succeded in preventing it or not you had chances to do something….if you had been a German and not a Jew in Germany in 1940’s would you have acted up, put yourself at risk or would you have followed along, being law abiding and hoping the system would right itself?
    So this constant refrain of what the rest of us are doing is useless and stupid and ineffective or what can anyone do that is effecive, is beside the point, just do something, anything, if you think this country is heading for disaster, do anything in or out of the system until you hit on something or collect enough somethings that work.
    I haven’t seen anything within the system cure itself yet so my theory is enrage the public to force a change…and I don’t mean make them go tisk,tisk…I mean make them mad as hell so they will get on the job of cleaning house.

    Reply

  33. mlaw230 says:

    Den : You asked a direct question about the Iraq war, the answer is no, I opposed it and vocally from day 1. BTW, I also opposed the sanctions regime and before that Gulf War I, which was also sold with a menu of lies.

    Reply

  34. Pissed Off American says:

    Carroll, I will answer your question. They are scared of you and I because we are the some of the first of many who will follow us. It is only by grassroot activism that we stand a chance of reclaiming our democracy. Knowledge is power, and knowledge in the minds of many is an army. And it is ONLY by spreading KNOWLEDGE that we can be successful in amassing the numbers that will turn this around. There is a fatalism that telegraphs through all of mlaw’s and MP’s posts. But that fatalism is purposely disguised as patriotism and optimism. It is DESIGNED to make us feel helpless, unable to instigate or institute change. Our voices, and the voice of all Americans is the greatest danger faced by these “monsters” in power, as Den has so accurately described them. We need numbers that are greater than the holding capacity of “free speech zones”. We need numbers that render fraudulent election outcomes impossible to offer.
    THATS what they fear.
    And by the way, it is essential to pull the covers off these people, and expose them for what they really are. Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

    Reply

  35. mlaw230 says:

    It’s obvious that you do not even read what is posted. Nobody, most assuredly me or MP, are suggesting you shouldn’t “educate” or “inform” but you keep urging others to “do something” and to “have a plan” when you have none yourself. Other than venting your spleen on various web sites what have you done, what do you propose to do?
    My guess is that a vast number of average americans, even very well informed americans, come to these web sites, particularly this one, for some reliable, non partisan, honest, information. They will and probably have already made up their minds as to whether they agree with this administration and guess what- most of them don’t. But most of them also realize that decisions have to be made, choices and priorities set, so they are wondering what the alternative to the current debacle is. They aren’t “liberals” they aren’t “conservatives” they are just people with a smattering of views on different sides and without an engraved ideology.
    If all you can do is provide a laundary list of grievances, conspiracy theories and invective you will be discounted as another over educated crackpot and should be.
    Give them a rational description of what you want to do and why it will work, and they will be listening.

    Reply

  36. Pissed Off American says:

    “f you are referring to the redicules theories that the airplanes were actually remote control drones in a CIA (or Neo cons, or Israeli)controlled plot to create a new Pearl Harbor, then no I don’t think we should go anywhwere near that. In the extemely unlikely event that such a thing were true I think we ccan count on somebody leaking it.”
    And the above statement is the EXACT tactic being used to HIDE the very real unanswereds questions about what occiurred on 9/11. This bullshit about “radio controlled planes’ or pods on the wings, or no aircraft hit the Pntagon are al;l DESIGNED to consign ANY questions about 9/11 to rthe realm of “conspiracy theories”. I this “mlaw” person wants to debate the TRUE unanswered questions about 9/11 with me, I will quite frankly rip him a new asshole. Perhaps he can start by explaining the experiences of William Rodriquiz to us. Or the stock manipulations that this Administration refuses to investigate. Or the experiences of Sybil Edmonds.
    I got news for you folks, “mlaw” is a trojan horse. If you examine his arguments, from A to Z, he is NOT an advocate for change, and he is using many of the talking points that are being used by the right to stifle investigations. But this horseshit he just threw us in response to Den’s mention of 9/11 is the TRUE indicator of his alliances. It is right out of the neo-con scriptbook.

    Reply

  37. Den Valdron says:

    I’m a bit busy right now. But here’s a question for you boys, and answer honestly:
    Did you support the Iraq war?
    I’m thinking you did. You boys are part of the problem. We both know it.

    Reply

  38. Pissed Off American says:

    “After the photo op there has been nothing substantive done. Why don’t we hear more about this?”
    ROFLMAO!!!!! Thats your attitude about ALL of the crimes of this administration, yet you condescendingly insult Carroll and I for working to inform those around us of the issues.
    You admit the electoral system is broken, yet you advocate voting for change.
    You call for investigations that are being blocked or whitewashed by this administration.
    You deny figures Den supplies without giving us countering figures, or a basis for your rebuttal.
    You deny there are proofs of fraud in the Presidential elections when proof has been available for sometime now.
    Your whole schpiel, above, is nothing more than empty unsubstantial crap.

    Reply

  39. MP says:

    POA writes: “More horseshit. Who said anything about writing to Congress? Who said anything about contributing to campaigns?? Look, stop with this straw BULLSHIT. You keep FABRICATING positions we haven’t assumed.
    Read my lips……
    IF YOU AIN’T GOT A VOTE, YOU AIN’T GOT SHIT.”
    Ah, Carroll did. I believe she does contact Congress, isn’t that true Carroll? You see, unlike you, I actually read these posts. How’s this for derision, Carroll?

    Reply

  40. Carroll says:

    Dear mlaw…
    Here is your problem
    “Consequently, a plan entailing Lobbying reform, real lobbying reform, tax reform, fiscal prrudence, and a sane foreign policy including support for international institutions would be compelling.”
    Your essays are just that, essays from Alice in Wonderland…Just where is it that you think the implementing and demand for those reforms would come from, other than a huge temper fit and insistance from a public who has at last figured out how they have been screwed…you think this reform will magically appear one day for no reason at all from the same politicans who have stayed in office by keeping those things in place?
    That isn’t even logical thinking.

    Reply

  41. MP says:

    Carroll writes: “Something about it scares you personally becuase every post you make contains a personal insult to one of us deriding our efforts..so tell us…why do we scare you?”
    Ah, try reading your own posts…Den’s posts (some of them) … almost any post by POA…and tell me truthfully if they don’t contain huge helpings of “personal insults” addressed personally to whichever “troll” is the current target. Den’s latest stuff on this thread does a pretty good job of “deriding” my efforts and mlaw’s, even Steve’s from time to time–not that I speak for anyone but myself.
    I will say this: Show me a good, effective, moral way to change our government and country, and I’ll be standing right next to you, hauling wood and water. My wife and I regularly curse at the morning paper over coffee and toast. It’s really unbelievable what is going on in this country. I would have to call myself an outraged moderate, as well.

    Reply

  42. Pissed Off American says:

    If your idea of political action is: writing to Congress, contributing to campaigns, talking with friends, giving books to libraries, working on campaigns, bringing cases to court, or posting links on blogs…
    YOU BELIEVE IN THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THAT IS THE SYSTEM.
    Posted by MP
    More horseshit. Who said anything about writing to Congress? Who said anything about contributing to campaigns?? Look, stop with this straw BULLSHIT. You keep FABRICATING positions we haven’t assumed.
    Read my lips……
    IF YOU AIN’T GOT A VOTE, YOU AIN’T GOT SHIT.
    GET IT???
    WHEN WILL YOU ACTUALLY START HONESTLY COUNTERING OUR ARGUMENTS WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN DISHONEST REPRESENTATIONS OF WHAT WE ARE SAYING?

    Reply

  43. Carroll says:

    MP….I am flattered in a way by your apparent jealousy of, or fear of, people like myself and POA and Den actually having some impact.
    You can talk about the system being the system we are working within and therefore we believe in it till the cows come home ..that isn’t the point and once again you don’t address the issue, you just address our methods….we are talking about changing the system by any and whatever ways it takes….so your harping on whether we are working within or without the system and whether that proves we ultimately believe in the system or not still comes backs to the fact that your comments are always about other people’s stupidy…
    That tells me that you are afraid of what people like Den and POA and myself express or might accomplish or how we might influence others…or you personally dislike us because we don’t agree with you on issues like Israel. What exactly in our conviction that things must change in our political establishment scares you?
    Something about it scares you personally becuase every post you make contains a personal insult to one of us deriding our efforts..so tell us…why do we scare you?

    Reply

  44. mlaw230 says:

    – Legal voter suppression, through the imposition of felon voting laws which effectively disenfranchise large segments of the population…
    Felons have never been permitted to vote. The extent people are placed on the list improperly that is obviously wrong and a revamping of election procedures, nationwide is in order. Its a loser of an issue as nobody cares about felons right to vote, and nobody believes your calculations of the numbers of wrongly disenfranchised.
    – And what about the electoral fraud in Florida in 2000?
    Investigate and see if the charge can be proven, go for it, but before it is proven don’t make an issue out of it becuase it provides the appearance of being a sore loser, not to mention living in the past. Thisis why we have law suits and prosecuters, who look at these things whether it wins votes or not.
    – What about the Electoral fraud in Ohio, in 2004?
    My understanding is that Ohio is being investigated particularly in light of Diebold claims, again a complete recasting of election procedures appears to be in order.
    – Diebold machines?
    Sure, make a big deal about Diebold machine problems, sponsor suits, investigate, seek indictments.
    – Perhaps basic humanity? What about the obvious false and fraudulent pretences of the justification for the Iraq War?
    Democrats (and Republicans) should have made a very vocal stand against this war and should have had the courage to oppose it, even if it did cost them their seats. They should now be investigating the surrounding crimes in the House and eventually be considering impeachment. But just saying that will not get you elected, there has to be a look at what foreign policy will follow, particularly now in light of our rightly discredited and disastrous policies.
    – How about the Iraq war itself?
    Certainly not. Iraq was stupid, an ideological war based upon utopian delusions. One could justify invasion of Iraq on humanitarian grounds, but they were not our grounds, and our ignorance of the culture and history of the region lead ineviably to the disaster we are now faced with.
    – Torture?
    There are still those fighting this fight. Our position is immoral, ineffective and reflects shame on the nation. I believe eventuall there will be indictments on this issue, particularly if it results in genuine “terrorists” being acquitted because allof the evidence is tainted.
    – New Orleans?
    After the photo op there has been nothing substantive done. Why don’t we hear more about this?
    – 9/11
    If you are referring to the redicules theories that the airplanes were actually remote control drones in a CIA (or Neo cons, or Israeli)controlled plot to create a new Pearl Harbor, then no I don’t think we should go anywhwere near that. In the extemely unlikely event that such a thing were true I think we ccan count on somebody leaking it.
    – Medicare disaster?
    Part “D”? This will have its own ramifications when millions of seniors hit the donut hole.
    – No Child Left Behind education disaster?
    I actually like the program, of course it was never funded so its just a PR stunt.
    – Alito and Roberts? Roberts appears to be quite brilliant, and the jury is out on Alito. The senate never adequately flushed out his views on separation of powers, if they are what many on the left fear, he should not have been confirmed but I doubt those are his views.
    – Gigantic tax cuts for the Rich?
    – Transfer of tax burdens onto the poor and working class? The Republicans are slopping in the trough, obviously they over did the “tax reform” even while they were spending us into bankruptcy (why have you neglected to mention Bankruptcy reform? Are you a Reublican?) I am more concerned with the stagnation in real wages which is systemic, but this will be a winning issue if framed properly.
    – And screw minorities and Mexicans?
    This is so vague a claim as to be unanswerable. If you mean immigration, the obvious answer there is to make big business, which requires that labor pool, to pay for the costs to the social structure that are imposed. Immigration is an actual honest to God problem, mixed with a generous helping of racism and fear mongering.
    On a more basic question, the problem with American Government is the unlimited demand for money. Lobbying and similar corruption turn otherwise wellmeaning representatives into paid advocates.
    So although I mostly agree with the points that you make, and make them myself in my own way, I do not think you are going to build a majority around investigating the Ohio voter fraud charges. Nor do I think you will gain a majority by making wild (even if true ) claims that are only remotely persusaive to the already converted.
    A winning approach has to start with regaining a majority in the House, without that you get absolutely nowhere. So, certainly you raise voting procedures as an issue, and ALL of the other issues as well, who could be opposed to most of that? But even if you do get a majority in the House, under our current system most will be beholden to one special interest or the other, so you need to build institutions that are not so systematically corrupt.
    If you make your arguments premised on a bunch of facts that most of the populace doesn’t agree are facts, you are going to lose, and lose badly.
    Consequently, a plan entailing Lobbying reform, real lobbying reform, tax reform, fiscal prrudence, and a sane foreign policy including support for international institutions would be compelling.

    Reply

  45. MP says:

    It’s always interesting to me how, when people can’t get their way, they want to “inflict away.”
    There’s a lot to say about how violent emotions lead to violent words lead to violent actions. Kill For Peace. Good song by the Fugs, I believe.
    Anyway, maybe I can simplify this:
    If your idea of political action is: writing to Congress, contributing to campaigns, talking with friends, giving books to libraries, working on campaigns, bringing cases to court, or posting links on blogs…
    YOU BELIEVE IN THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THAT IS THE SYSTEM.

    Reply

  46. MP says:

    My plan is to work for candidates who will work for the principles and programs I believe in.
    I don’t see any alternative. And frankly, I don’t see any alternative coming from you, or Carroll, or POA.
    Carroll puts forth giving books to libraries and talking to friends and acquaintances. Not too radical, but, okay, I do that.
    POA likes to post links with useful information. Okay, I do that, too. Not as much as he does, but I do.
    You like to post your opinions on the state of the world. Okay, I do that, too.
    Carroll writes to members of Congress. Okay, I do that a lot.
    Carroll gives to certain candidates. Okay, I do that a lot. And I work for candidates as does every member of my family even as we “speak.” And we have done so since the 1920s up through the McCarthy period and I personally picked up the thread as late as Eugene McCarthy.
    I also perform a lot of service around poverty for my community.
    I do belileve the Dems should be hanging tough on a bunch of the issues you list and have been disappointed by their spinelessness on many, many occasions. On the other hand, I don’t think they are going to win a lot of elections unless they are able to form larger coalitions. And if they are out of government, they are out of power and unable to do anything.
    Your view is that the other side is simply monsters. Some are; some aren’t. I think that’s the reality. Your view, I believe, dooms you to the wilderness, where you may be “right” but unable to do anything about it, other than post here.
    The image of Carroll carrying stacks of books to the library– thinking that she’s changing the world–while our literacy rate plummets and even “literate” people no longer read–is just too sad for words. Good grief, how idiotic can you get.
    For you to demand a plan from me, while you have nothing on offer other than invective and doom, strikes me as comical, really.
    It’s just venting. You can and will use whatever graphic images you wish to describe my position, but it’s all irrelevant.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    Den…
    Inflict away..
    The only plan I see that MP and mlaw have is to use passive agressiveness toward anyone who is discussing that we need to clean up our goverment.
    Maybe you can cure them. Or maybe they have a unstated reason or vested interest for protecting the status quo…neither has said exactly what they are for or against or exactly what kind of goverment they want for the US. So far I haven’t seen anything in what they have offered except we should all do nothing and trust in the “system”.
    Mlaw seems to think moderates should be “do nothing” and “wait and see”..I consider myself a outraged moderate, as are most of the moderates I know…anyone who is truly moderate..which means being centrist and weighing issues individually and seperately and not lumping everything into one black or white ideology… is outraged at the lunatics and lack of realism and common sense on both sides of our political system.

    Reply

  48. Den Valdron says:

    Well Carroll, in that case, there ain’t nuthin to do but inflict some hurtin.
    In the meantime, mlaw and MP, feel free to put forward the substantive plan to save your nation. Where exactly are you going to ‘pick your wise battle’?
    Because, personally, I’m thinking you don’t have a plan. I’m thinking that there is no ‘wise battle’. That you’re all about bravely bending your knee.

    Reply

  49. Carroll says:

    MP and malw
    fellows …I think we have gotten to the point where we can see your are not here to debate the state of the nation…
    The fact that your comments are almost entirely made up of personally condescending remarks about the rest of us reminds me of the kind of little person that becomes a teacher strictly for the ego boost of having a position where they can talk down to their students and not be challanged by growups…
    As you see that is not the case here, so if you have any firmly held political opinions or suggestions, state them and leave off your self protecting fake superiority…it’s only an indication of your own ego weakness and it’s not adding anything to the discussion.

    Reply

  50. Den Valdron says:

    Yes, MP, I will call you complacent. Get over it.
    As for blowing off your constituencies, that is exactly what the Democrats are doing and have done. The reality is not that these constituencies are not enough to win elections. The reality is that these constituencies are taken for granted.
    Blacks have nowhere else to go. Black voters are guaranteed to vote 90% Democrat. So why chase those votes? Its more cost effective to pursue the undecided voters. Thus, issues are framed, money put into, and the concerns of undecided voters addressed. What this means, however, is tht black voters are largely ignored during a campaign, their issues are not addressed, the policies which they find important are not a priority. So, black voters and their issues are blown off in favour of soccer moms.
    If it becomes a choice of choosing between soccer moms and black voters, the choice is always the soccer moms, because black voters have no place to go. They’re already in the bag. So black issues find no traction in either elections or policy.
    The problem is, however, that this erodes the black vote. More and more black voters, finding that the system does not address them, simply do not vote. You have triangulated yourselves into irrelevance.
    Have you ever looked at the proportions of Americans who do not vote? Who have been dropped out of or feel abandoned by the political system?
    And of course, in the case of black voters, as noted, there are endless legal and illegal instances of voter suppression. The Republicans are not particularly interested in capturing black voters, they experience a net gain if they can simply stop them from voting. If the Democrats were on the ball, this would be a national outrage. But Democrats are so committed to their failing ‘soccer mom’ strategy that they simply ignore the issue altogether. The truth is that they’re so used to blowing off black voters, that they’ve forgotten to care, even when they should.
    Now, apply this phenomena to Latinos, to Immigrants, to Unions, to Gays, to Women, to Asians, and what you have is a Democratic Party that simply disserves its existing constituents and alienates their vote, while endlessly stalking rightward and endlessly compromising itself in pursuit of coalitions with so called ‘swing voters’ who will not vote for them in any circumstance.
    Look at the futile attempts to bait fundamentalist Christians. Look at the pursuit of the southern cracker vote.
    And in the pursuit of those constituencies, what happens to Roe v. Wade? To the Civil Rights Act? To Medicare? To Social Security? At every point, they are attenuated, distance is sought from them.
    ‘Serious’ Democrats discuss how it may be untenable to defend Roe v. Wade, since it alienates a voting constituency. The logic is that if the Democrats knuckle under on choice, then they may defuse a political issue and have more opportunity to target a particular class of voters now animated by that issue. But at the same time, the class of voters that support the Democrats on that issue, can be expected to take the hit and remain loyal Democrats, because there are other feminist or womens issues and because they’ve got nowhere else to go.
    And has that kind of thinking worked out for the Democrats so far? I don’t think so.
    You want to know who is responsible for President Bush? Look in a mirror. You are. You’ve clevered yourself into a whole in the ground, you’ve cunningly planned your way to failure.

    Reply

  51. Carroll says:

    Fellows ..you are wasting your time arguing politics with people like MP and mlaw …I think we have gotten to the point where we can see that they are not here to debate the state of the nation…
    The fact that their comments aren’t about what can or should be done, but almost entirely made up of personally condescending remarks about the rest of us should remind you of the kind of little person that becomes a teacher strictly for the ego boost of having a position where they can talk down to their students and not be challanged by growups..you know the type.

    Reply

  52. Den Valdron says:

    Mmm hmmm,
    I have yet to see your kind pick *any* fight, much less a wise one. Your strategy, such as it is, seems to be to bravely bravely turn your back and bend your knee, bravely run away.
    Examples?
    – Legal voter suppression, through the imposition of felon voting laws which effectively disenfranchise large segments of the population and whose effect is particularly concentrated in minorities. Moreover, the vetting of ‘felon voter’ lists has been repeatedly shown to be riddled with errors and fraud, with documented instances of people being barred from voting as felons for crimes alleged to have occurred in 2008. The vetting process has been shown to be highly racist in its selections of blacks and minorities. Where’s your outrage? Where’s your anger? You are perfectly happy to be indifferent to the plight of victims of this modern day Jim Crow legislation. They’re mostly black, after all. So… this was not the wise fight?
    – And what about the electoral fraud in Florida in 2000? Not a wise fight, once again?
    – What about the Electoral fraud in Ohio, in 2004? Not the wise fight?
    – Diebold machines? Too technical, not a wise fight?
    – Perhaps basic humanity? What about the obvious false and fraudulent pretences of the justification for the Iraq War? The fact that the President was caught outright in a lie in the State of the Union Address? The fact that Colin Powell embarrassed everyone in his UN Presentation featuring cartoons and artists depictions? That wasn’t the *wise* fight?
    – How about the Iraq war itself? Again, not the *wise* fight?
    – Torture? Nope. Guantanamo bay? Nope. A secret network of CIA prisons? Nope.
    – New Orleans? Sorry.
    – 9/11 Investigation? Wouldn’t want to rock that boat.
    – Medicare disaster? Nah, you’ll go along with that one.
    – No Child Left Behind education disaster? Hell, even Kennedy signed onto that. No point fighting there.
    – Alito and Roberts? Just roll right over.
    – Gigantic tax cuts for the Rich? Let’s not pick that fight.
    – Transfer of tax burdens onto the poor and working class? Screw them.
    – And screw minorities and Mexicans? Apparently. After all, why should Democrats cater to them, they’ve got nowhere else to go.
    Go ahead, name three fights that the Democrats have picked. Name three fights that you would pick.
    “We must not be passive” When have you been anything but?
    “We must not fail to defend ourselves” You can start any time, really. Go right ahead.
    “We must patiently and respectfully pry those willing to listen away from their complacency” By shutting your mouths, nodding your heads and going along to get along?
    Gentlemen, you are nothing if not the pictures of complacency yourselves.
    I encouraged you to go and lurk at Free Republic, Little Green Footballs or Captains Quarters. Did you? I doubt it. I think you’re too lazy. You may recognize the problems your country is experiencing, but you are too comfortable in your self satisfaction to bother examining them.
    I shan’t bother to encourage you. I will simply punch holes in your nonsense. So, buck up. It may hurt a bit, but I’ll be as nice to you as you deserve.

    Reply

  53. mlaw230 says:

    Well put, MP! It appears that I (or we)have struck a nerve with POA and Den. This is not to say they don’t have many very good points nor am I saying that the current regime is not as bad, or worse, than they are saying. This is and has always been an inherently dangerous crowd.
    But in order to win converts we can not afford to have overstated our case. THEY have an enormous credibility problem, and of all the faults one can have in American politics, lack of credibility is the one most often fatal. We should not make accusations that can not be proven and we must patiently and respectfully pry those willing to listen away from their complacency.
    This does not mean we can be passive or fail to defend ourselves or our ideas, but we MUST pick our fights wisely and avoid giving those who are waivering an excuse to return to the conmfort of their prior assumptions.

    Reply

  54. MP says:

    Den writes: “And yet, your solution for the Democrats is to blow off their existing constituencies and chase after a right wing of ‘moderate’ active voters?”
    Ah, no, that’s not what I’m saying. Would never blow off existing constituencies because I’m one of them, for starters. But existing constituencies aren’t enough to win elections–in some cases, at all, and in other cases, by any margin that makes change possible. Let’s keep in mind that Clinton was the last Democrat to be re-elected since…when?…technically speaking, I think the answer is FDR. But certainly since 1970, he was the ONLY Democrat to make a dent in the relentless rightward drift of the country’s politics. He did it, imperfectly, by finding a middle way.
    Please don’t call me complacent. You don’t know what I do, what I stand for, or how I direct my energies toward correcting our course. Past, present, or future.

    Reply

  55. Den Valdron says:

    In the bluntest possible ways, I would say MP and mlaw230 that the specific electoral paradigms and tactics which you and your ilk endorse, have failed and consistently failed to come to grips with the reality that you are facing. The question is not whether or not you are in trouble. You are. The question is whether you have passed the point of no return. Your dreary complacence, your indifference to a deteriorating situation, and your casual acceptance of atrocity suggests that indeed, the point of no return has been passed. You will go on talking about electoral coalition building long after all the lights are turned out.
    The reality is, unfortunately, that your electoral system is demonstrably and proveably corrupt. The reality is that there is a very high probability, almost to certainty, that two Presidential elections and several Senate and House races were stolen. In some cases, as many as 15% of the votes may have been shifted. You acquiescent tolerance to electoral fraud (it has to be really close in the first place) is simply offensive. The reality is that your President is continuing to abrogate to himself imperial powers while individual civil rights are eroded out of existence.
    The reality is that a majority of Americans who are eligible to vote, simply do not vote, because they do not see the political system as responsive to their lives. And yet you talk about building coalitions? The Democrats are so out of touch, and the Republicans so deranged, that they appeal only to a fraction of the voters. And yet, your solution for the Democrats is to blow off their existing constituencies and chase after a right wing of ‘moderate’ active voters?
    In a decade or so, or perhaps a generation, Americans will stand around asking themselves ‘how did this happen to us? Why did we let this happen to us?’ When that day comes, allow me to point the finger at you guys.

    Reply

  56. MP says:

    Dear POA: I won’t address your points about language. Coming from you, they just leave me laughing.
    So, on to more serious things, the argument you direct at mlaw and me is just as easily directed at you.
    To wit: Unless you vote the bad guys out, which is to say, engage in electoral politics, how do you propose to remove them? And, the other side of the coin, who do you vote in to replace them? And if that can’t happen, then I’m not sure what can happen.
    It’s actually a pretty simple point, even if it isn’t simply done.
    It’s either voting…or popular insurrection. I think those are the choices pretty much. I guess the army could stage a coup. And those really aren’t such good alternatives IMO–I’d rather give our democracy, crippled though it may be, another chance.
    Now, if you’re going to vote the bad guys out, you’re going to have to create some serious majorities. You’re going to have to build some coalitions with folks who disagree with you on any number of issues. I think that’s pretty much the reality in America today, given our polarization.
    I promise to dig more deeply into the links you gave me. But I would be surprised if Gore or Kerry would have received huge majorities if only all the votes had been counted and correctly. I know I’m going to have my head handed to me for this, and I admit I haven’t thoroughly delved into the issue or the facts. And I do believe Gore (and we) was robbed by the Supreme Court and the Republicans. But most vote manipulations in the US are successful because they take place where elections are close. For example, many, if not most, observers agree that Daley threw the election to JFK by manipulating votes in Chicago, but by a relatively few votes. Nixon decided not to challenge it.
    The real challenge for us is to create decisive majorities that can sway the country’s direction. Winning elections by just a tad is better than nothing. But I don’t think we can change direction fundamentally unless we can create big majorities that want change. Americans respond better to folks who believe in the system and are committed to the system. They don’t respond well to folks who call them a rotting pile of fungus moldering on the left buttock of civilization…just because they disagree.
    Except of course on talk radio.

    Reply

  57. Den Valdron says:

    I regret that POA has the right of it with respect to his characterization of mlaw230’s most recent comments as ‘condescending horseshit.’
    As for his sarcastic comments about ‘Canadiens’, all I can say is ‘go fuck yourself.’
    Here is the reality for you, mlaw230. You are out of touch. Your basis for imagining the pendulum will swing is merely imagination.
    Canada is not a country which tortures people. Yours is. Canada is not a country invading other nations on false pretenses. Yours is. Canada is not a country experiencing systematic electoral corruption. Yours is.
    You seem fully prepared to acknowledge the various problems, including the fact that your electoral system is now consistently fraudulent. You have no useful prescription for reform, except ‘hope.’
    You repudiate the notion that history or other countries experience has anything to teach you, dismissing it as trivial Godwinism. Nevertheless, we could bypass Germany, and look to Argentina, to Spain, to the fall of the Roman Republic. There’s no shortage of historical precedents, and there are clear mechanisms and patterns at work. But you can’t be bothered.
    And your best notion is to mock? Again, fuck you.
    I believe that Lenin described your sort as “Useful Idiots.” I leave you to your smiling complacency, as your house collapses all around you.

    Reply

  58. Pissed Off American says:

    “MP: I too was amused by the response. It appears that the “plan” is to write sharp letters.”
    “This is somewhat of a relief as I anticipated from the rhetoric that the writers were likely forming some type of paramilitary strike team in Idaho.”
    It is this kind of condescending horseshit that makes me distrust the conviction of people like mlaw. Anyone else notice that underneath the self agrandizing and patronizing rhetoric of MP and mlaw they offer nothing in the way of suggestions, other than operating within a system that no longer works in the best interests of the people???
    They offer no suggestions how to counter the misinformation of the media. How else will that be done other than by communication, one American to another? By the people, for the people…..a premise that our government long ago discarded, and people like MP or mlaw, (with the kind of empty crap we see above), have negated with thier pseudo patriotic optimism, unfounded in fact or reality. Our government has become the PROBLEM, not the solution. Our government has become that that the founding fathers sought to protect us against, and it is WE THE PEOPLE that will have to institute a change in a direction that steers us back towards our original ideals. And we will have to do so in numbers large enough that we cannot be contained in “free speech zones”. We will have to do so in numbers so large that stolen elections no longer can fraudulently imply the will of the people.
    And to hell with civility. mlaw can take his condescending and patronizing sarcasm and shove it. I sure as hell would rather meet criticism or insult straight on, rather than by the mealy mouthed back door insults such as we see above from mlaw. It is little more than the EXACT technique that the pukes use in “swiftboating” thier opponents.
    As I, and others, have pointed out, the direction that mlaw advocates only maintains the status quo, and is going to result in the INEVITABLE demise of our democracy. Particularly with these abominational criminals who now hold power. And worse, mlaw is well aware of that fact. Who gains by keeping the American citizenry disengaged, uninformed, and calmly optimistc?

    Reply

  59. mlaw230 says:

    MP: I too was amused by the response. It appears that the “plan” is to write sharp letters.
    This is somewhat of a relief as I anticipated from the rhetoric that the writers were likely forming some type of paramilitary strike team in Idaho. Imagine my surprise when I learned that in addition to writing sharp letters, and faxing and calling elected representatives, we were also advised to “encourage and support Canadian traditions of fairness, accountability and transparency…” One imagines that the Monsters quiver at the prospect of the coming revolution.
    Faced with the mental image of thousands of angry Canadiens, writing, faxing and telephoning, for their freedom and mine, I am shamed at my relative lack of committment and zeal. I admit that it has been months since I compared the Administration to the Third Reich, nor have I properly demonized the 50% of the population which apparently disagrees with me on most things.
    The RARE (Revolutionary Army of Rhetorical Excess)is clearly on to something. What better way to bring about peaceful change than to constantly rail against a failed democracy beyond redemption and the futility of all existing institutions of government? How better to persuade people who have drifted off the straight and narrow toward association with the monsters than to label the whole lot fascists?
    When at long last, the pendulum swings, and we are able to supplant the extremists of the right with the extremists of the left, there will no doubt be an honored place for those who insisted on the purity of the cause, the righteousnous of their own moral indignation, and of course, appropriate spelling and punctuation.

    Reply

  60. Carroll says:

    MP….
    “I mean…Carroll gives books to her local library and writes letters and gives money to various members of Congress! POA leads folks to links with information that will open their eyes. Don’t get me wrong, all of this is GREAT. I’m for it. But these are probably NOT the kinds of things you do when you’re battling monsters.”
    Actually this is exactly the kind of things you do when you are trying to educate and convince others to join in your fight against the monsters.
    It’s the old 20/80 proposition again…80% of you will do nothing but wait because you either lack imagination or don’t want to have to think about things that could upset your day to day ordinary life. Reminds me a lot of the description of the Germans in They Thought They Were Free…as long as they had their little trappings of everyday normalacy they did nothing to upset themselves or the status quo.
    We want the 20% that always takes the lead and shake things up..whether it is finding that 20% in congress or on the street or among former mioitary and officials.
    If it was strickly up to me I would do away with the nicities and just put wooden stakes thru the neo’s hearts and be done with it….but that suggestion seems to offend some people.

    Reply

  61. Pissed Off American says:

    ” don’t mind POA’s language any more. I APPRECIATE the VALUABLE information you pass on. I’ve been using it to get myself schooled. And I certainly appreciate Den’s coming to my defense (sort of) and the insights and good writing he provides. But, I still don’t perceive in any of this a serious answer to the question mlaw, and I after “him,” asked: What do you propose? Seems to me all of your answers boil down to this: Work harder to make the system work. And pray that it still can work. I can get with that.”
    Posted by MP
    Until you address and repair the effects of the “criminal manipulation” all the rest of this is merely mental masturbation. It is my argument that the vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer that our constitution is abided by. The vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer that thier votes are accurately counted. The vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer our leaders do not LIE us into costly wars. The vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer our soldiers and intelligence agents are not shoving chemical light sticks up muslim assholes. The vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer to hear the TRUTH from the fifth estate. The vast majority of Americans, right and left, would prefer our public officials are held accountable for their actions, criminal OR malfeasant.
    Need I go on? You are advocating working within a system that no longer works. Thats insanity. You advocate voting to institute change, yet you admit the fact that our electoral system is broken and corrupt. You maintain that the very people that have broken and corrupted the system are the very people that will fix it. Thats insanity.
    And, as Den has so succinctly pointed out, we now have leaders that are every bit the abominational monsters that he professes them to be. These people KNOW NO RULES. And if the last six years haven’t driven that point home to you, than you are simply not paying attention, or, as Carrol has opined, you are in abject denial, and are a victim of the “it can’t happen here” syndrome.
    It CAN happen here, and it IS happening here.

    Reply

  62. Den Valdron says:

    No. The current operation of the system, the current paradigms no longer function. The system is weighted by monsters, and traditional politics has come to an end.
    The appropriate response is to develop a new set of political responses and operations to deal with the fact that you are dealing with monsters.
    You are consistently failing to understand that the current ‘moderate democrats’ paradigm simply feeds these monsters. The way of Gore/Kerry/Clinton/Lieberman et al has lead only to disaster.

    Reply

  63. MP says:

    Well I, for one, certainly appreciate all of the preceding comments, and I say that without any sarcasm. Aside from procedural issues like vote counting, I DON’T agree that we’d mostly all agree if we all were informed. I don’t have stats to back this up, but the polarization in this society is, IMHO, not based just on criminal manipulation of the system, but on real differences and on events going back at least to the 60s and probably to the FDR era.
    What I find interesting–comforting and amusing in a way–is that as soon as Carroll, POA, and Den (though, to be fair, he doesn’t have a lever to pull south of the border) are asked, “What do you propose,” they suddenly sound very mainstream in their responses. Almost Norman Rockell-ish. I can almost see them suddenly sitting upright, straightening their hair, and raising their hands to be called on.
    I mean…Carroll gives books to her local library and writes letters and gives money to various members of Congress! POA leads folks to links with information that will open their eyes. Don’t get me wrong, all of this is GREAT. I’m for it. But these are probably NOT the kinds of things you do when you’re battling monsters. That would call for, ah, more extreme measures, I would have thought. I mean, for all the abuse POA heaps on me and other moderates who “drop in,” you’d think he’d be a wee bit more, what’s the right word? active than passing on links and casting doubt on a moderate’s, what?, integrity.
    I don’t mind POA’s language any more. I APPRECIATE the VALUABLE information you pass on. I’ve been using it to get myself schooled. And I certainly appreciate Den’s coming to my defense (sort of) and the insights and good writing he provides. But, I still don’t perceive in any of this a serious answer to the question mlaw, and I after “him,” asked: What do you propose? Seems to me all of your answers boil down to this: Work harder to make the system work. And pray that it still can work. I can get with that.

    Reply

  64. Den Valdron says:

    I will not cast aspersions on MP, or mlaw230 or Steve’s character. They are honourable and decent men of the old order who are merely out of touch with the reality of the new order. Being out of touch is not a sin. It is merely potentially fatal.

    Reply

  65. Pissed Off American says:

    Gee, looking into CIA rendition policies must REALLY be depressing, eh??
    “Monsters”, indeed…..
    http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/004629.html
    Top Italian telecom security official involved in Abu Omar rendition case commits suicide in Naples. Adamo Bove’s expertise was mobile telecom surveillance. “According to testimony by Bove’s ex-colleagues in Milan, it was Adamo Bove who helped the Milan magistrates identify and reconstruct the mobile phone traffic during the kidnapping of Abu Omar in Milan on February 17, 2003. It was this crucial investigative work that led to arrest warrants for 26 American agents and many of their Italian accomplices.” More. Corriere’s Guido Olimpio notes that Bove’s Greek telecom security official counterpart also was found dead recently, in a case that was covered by the WSJ and the Observer. More here. These cases are about not just domestic surveillance, but the intersection of Washington’s war on terror with secret factions inside companies and countries involved with domestic surveillance, and secrecy, it would seem, is at a premium.

    Reply

  66. Pissed Off American says:

    US names spy operations ‘manager’ for Cuba, Venezuela
    The United States has named a special “manager” for its intelligence operations against Cuba and Venezuela, in effect putting the two Latin American nations on a par with “axis of evil” states confronted on multiple levels by the administration of President George W. Bush.
    In a statement released Friday, the office of National Intelligence Director John Negroponte said the manager would be responsible “for integrating collection and analysis on Cuba and Venezuela across the intelligence community” and “ensuring the implementation of strategies” that have not been disclosed.
    “Such efforts are critical today, as policymakers have increasingly focused on the challenges that Cuba and Venezuela pose to American foreign policy,” the statement said.
    http://sg.news.yahoo.com/060819/1/42w82.html
    “Challenges”?????? WHAT God damned challenges???
    Assholes. Anyone sick of this shit yet? What the hell is some traitorous fanatic like Negroponte doing in a leadership position anyway? Good god, if you completely disregard the crimes of this administration your are still faced with it’s debacles. 9/11. Iraq. New Orleans. Why in God’s name are we still allowing these maniacs to decide America’s course??? Would ANY of these people, starting with Bush, still have a job if they had been running a corporation???

    Reply

  67. Pissed Off American says:

    By the way Steve, your advocation as to the character of Dov Zakheim makes me think that they may have ALREADY demanded payment, and that you met their terms.

    Reply

  68. Pissed Off American says:

    Behind the smiles, their teeth are filed sharp.
    Its not working because they are monsters.
    To understand what they are, you need to step away from the table, look past the thousand dollar suits, look at the howling dogs behind them. Look for their true faces.
    Posted by Den Valdron
    This is exactly how I see many of the so-called “moderates” that drop in here occassionally, professing to want change while advocating courses of action that will not institute change. There is an underlying dishonesty that telegraphs through their opinions and suggestions. Is it possible to conceal a lack of conviction??? That is what I feel from the posts of those such as this mlaw character, or MP, a lack of conviction. It is as though they have had an argument carefully crafted for them, one that implies allegiance to progressive change, yet advocates self defeating courses of action, doomed to failure and designed for the maintainence of the status quo.
    I doubt we still have a window of opportunity here for peaceful change, because I believe that a massive citizen’s call for change and governmental accountability would be countered with the actions of the police state that is concealed just under the surface of a media smokescreen. Surely, anyone who has closely
    followed the actions of this administration cannot discount the lengths they will go to to maintain thier grip on power.
    I believe Steve is a good man, but he cannot resist the addictive tittilation of flirting with those in power. Sooner or later they will demand payment from him for his admission to thier orgy. That is when Steve will find out what he is TRULY made out of.
    (Its not too late to accept the truth, Steve. Cut through the denial, you KNOW the truth. Reid, McCain, Clinton, Bush, Cheney…..these are the kind of people that the founding fathers sought to PROTECT US from. These are the very people that the Constitution was designed to COUNTER.)

    Reply

  69. Den Valdron says:

    All of which is true, POA, but when they’re sitting across from the table with you in thousand dollar suits, as our friend Steve can testify, they do not look and talk like Monsters.
    And so the temptation is to see it as sort of business as usual. To reach out, and to try and make linkages and alliances, compromises, to work with moderates.
    And then they wonder why that isn’t working any more, when its always worked. With no other solution, you just keep doing the same thing and keep on wondering why its not working. Perhaps if we try it some more it will start working again. On the opposite side of the table they nod and smile and invite you to try again.
    Behind the smiles, their teeth are filed sharp.
    Its not working because they are monsters.
    To understand what they are, you need to step away from the table, look past the thousand dollar suits, look at the howling dogs behind them. Look for their true faces.

    Reply

  70. Pissed Off American says:

    “Monsters.”
    Den has hit the nail squarely on its head.
    Who can forget the horror we experienced as we watched the crime of 9/11 unfold? Well, there is a REASON these “monsters” sought to block thorough investigations into the cvircumstances surrounding 9/11, ands still seek to hide the TRUTH from us.
    Who has not experienced the tragedy of having a loved one die of lung cancer, emphysema, or Melanoma???? Well, have you looked closely at Bush’s complete denial of science in regards to Global Warming, and his systematic DISMANTLEMENT of fifty years worth of progress in environmental law?
    Who here has not lamented the the terrible reality of autism and babiies born with horrendous birth defects??? Well, have you followed Bush’s comlete denial in regards to themoseral and its irrefutable link to autism? What kind of “monster” puts the interests of pharmaceutical comnpanies above the healthy well being of our children?
    Who here has not witnessed the terrible tragedy of heroin addiction, and is unaware of the gigantic costs that such addictions inflict on human siociety?? Well, have any of you followed events in Afghanistan, as poppy fields are reaping harvests of record ammounts of paste, the profits going directly into the pockets of those that these “monsters” in the White House claim to have defeated?
    Torture. Lies as the foundation for war. Shipping rush orders of bombs to Israel while standing at the podium advocating peace. Ignoring science as our environment becomes a deadly stew of over-heated toxins. Counting dollar signs for the Pharmas as children are born into a lifetime of autistic confusion. Covertly undermining damocracys in Haiti, Venezuela, Gaza, Lebanon, while proclaiming to be advancing freedom.
    The list goes on and on. These are NOT the acts of leaders of a “freeworld”. These are in fact the undeniable actions of what Den has correctly labeled as “monsters”. And they are as undeniably deserving of this monicker as Hitler, Amin, or Charles Manson was. And when you factor in the environmental abuses, the complete disregard for science as it applies to our environment’s health, the foreign policies that are causing countless deaths daily, and all the other travesties that this administration commits on a daily basis, the deaths caused by THESE monsters will FAR SURPASS the numbers that Hitler amassed.
    “Monsters”, indeed.

    Reply

  71. Den Valdron says:

    Let’s be clear, I’m not denouncing MP or mlaw230 as Chamberlains or Surrender Monkeys. They advocate a brand of civilized politica discourse that I respect and admire. Their approach and their way of doing things has been a norm, and it has been a functional and productive norm.
    It’s just that norm is no longer applicable.
    Now its monsters.
    The world has been changed. The old ways no longer apply. You need to deal with monsters as monsters and not as civilized men.
    Monsters.
    I can’t repeat that enough.
    New rules. Play by new rules, or die by the old ones.
    Monsters.

    Reply

  72. Carroll says:

    DING,DING,DING..!!!! Give Den a prize too, he gets it.
    “This is what is happening to your country. It has happened before, to other countries. Most recently, it happened in Germany, circa 1933. In historical terms, your situation now is analogous to Germany, 1936-1938.
    The reason that they have kept on going, and I do not say this to cast blame, is you and people like you. You practice politics of conciliation, compromise, accommodation. You give, they take. You do not go for the jugular when they are down, they keep going, they keep taking. They give nothing. You could have stopped them. So far, you have refused to act, because you do not understand what they are and how they work.”

    Reply

  73. Carroll says:

    BINGO !!BINGO! BINGO! GIVE MARKY THE PRIZE!
    “I think Den et. al. are saying you have to accept the nature of the problem before any solution is possible”
    by marky”
    When you those of you who don’t get it, get it?
    What will it take for you to get it?
    What you are dealing with in Washington and in this country now is NOT so much political parties and diverging goals and opinons. You are dealing with a MAFIA mentality in the entire system..whose foremost goal is to keep the same system going….one that been spawned by your own inattention and servant like attitudes toward those who actually are suppose to WORK FOR YOU…Fire them. And fire enough of them to remind them ALL that they are paid servants subject to dismissal for incompetence or misbehavior, not a royal ruling class in lifetime positions.

    Reply

  74. Carroll says:

    mlaw230..to answer your question
    “OK, Carroll, POA, Ven, what are YOU going to do about it?
    Posted by mlaw230 at August 18, 2006 04:04 PM”
    In a word everything I can. I make it a point to look for lesser congressmen and women who never get any press and whose actions and votes and bills I agree with…then I donate to them and call their offices to reinforce them…so they will know someone is watching them and agrees with them.
    I also call, write or fax writers of articles I agree with to encourage them to continue to speak out about various issues…you would be surprised at some of the high level figures I have gotten personal replies from or maybe you wouldn’t be but I was…this is important to do because these people are sticking their necks out in a lot of cases and need some ecouragement and appreciation from the public to keep on ..especially when they are tackling difficult or unpopular issues.
    Because I am very much against foreign influences like AIPAC and CAFN, I copy off articles written about these groups, as well as others and put them out at my local library for patrons to pick up…that’s been very successful.
    I also recommend and donate political books to my Library and also to my own book club.
    Other than that I never miss a chance to take chance by telling people what they might not want to hear but need to know. But these days I am finding that I don’t have to do much of that…because except for the died in the wool don’t bother me with facts my mind is made up fruit of the loom and popping dough boys…most everyone is already ageeing with me that Wshington needs a gaint enema applied to both the dems and the repubs and the entire system.

    Reply

  75. Carroll says:

    MP…I will excerpt the same part of your statement POA did…
    “”But what I think POA (and Carroll) underestimate is the extent to which there are deep and legitimate disagreements about which way to go among wide swaths of the American public. On any number of key issues. It is NOT simply that most folks are dupes and misinformed, though some are. A lot of people really do know what they think, and they don’t agree with the way “we” think. Unless WE come to terms with that central fact–that we are a profoundly heterogenous country–we will never turn things around.”
    Because it is too simple-simple. Of course people “know” what they think. It’ not a matter of them knowing what they “think”..duh.
    It’s a matter of actually “knowing enough details” about what they have “opinion” on.
    I don’t want to get into a 10 paragrpah explaination so let’s just use the “flat tax’ issue that so many uninformed people think is a great idea. Poor fools. Have they ever actually read the flat tax plan?…it’s over at Cato if you want to see it. If the poor darlings ever did read the details
    they would be saying “what the shit is this?!” instead of just letting the spin convinced them it would be good for them because they they hate the IRS.
    Ignorance abounds. So again it isn’t a matter of having different opinions, it’s a matter of actually “understanding” the “big picture” and I would be very surprised if more than 3 out ten citizen voters even know where to find the detailed information they need to have a legitimate “thought” on any issue except personal or religious ones that require no actual thinking and depend entirely on emotion, like abortion for example…. which quite frankly doesn’t even belong in the political realm.
    Here is what I would say….MOST people would agree on MORE issues if they ALL had the necessary and complete information available to them on any given issue and could understand it, and how it translates to them and their families or their interest.

    Reply

  76. Den Valdron says:

    Seriously, mlaw230, if you want to have any idea what you are dealing with, go and spend time on Free Republic, Little Green Footballs, Captains Quarters etc. Do not get into arguments just lurk.
    When you can’t stand it any longer, go to David Niewert’s site, Orcinus, and start looking at some of his essays on Eliminationism and Transmission.

    Reply

  77. Den Valdron says:

    mlaw230,
    For the record, by definition, Libertarians have no valid points. They’re selfish little masturbators. They’re prone to saying something sensible twice a day, simply by circumstance, but there is no real thinking behind it. I know that sounds harsh, but I say this with as much compassion as I can muster. Trust me on this.
    As to how you got where you are… It’s very simple. Your political system, pretty much every political system, works on the basis of cooperation. There is a social contract, stated or unstated, to operate within a framework of rules, part of which are essential principles of dialogue and fairness. Think in terms of principles of reciprocity.
    Reciprocity only works, the system only works, however, when both sides are committed to it and play by the rules.
    When one side stops playing by the rules, when it ends reciprocity, the system experiences dysfunction.
    Several things can happen. The other side ceases reciprocity, the system goes through a period of dysfunction, and eventually reciprocity is restored because it is in both sides interests.
    Alternately, the agents or factions that obstruct reciprocity are frozen out by the system as a whole, including their own comrades who experience net advantages and net benefits in reciprocity, and so have the edge over party members who do not play the game.
    In either case, the system rights itself. This has happened in America in the past.
    The real danger comes when a party emerges which discovers advantages to continuing reciprocity on the part of its adversaries, but refusing reciprocity on its own behalf. In this situation, power goes one way. One side makes concessions and compromises, the other side takes all that is offered and gives nothing back. This movement or party is antithetical to and contemptuous of the system, it demonizes its adversaries at every point, and it pursues radical agendas.
    There is a problem for such a radical party, however. By nature, its operation is inherently unstable. It cannot stand still, its power and solidarity are achieved only through continued expansion. Lacking reciprocity, having abandoned normal channels of dialogue and accommodation, it has no way to advance except through taking. Halt that expansion and cracks immediately start to appear. Its internal dynamics require that it drive forward into every sphere, seeking to conquer its adversary at every level, from something as elevated as the supreme court to something as trivial as PBS or the public relations office of NASA. They cannot stop because they are unable to stop.
    They will destroy the system, in part because they want to destroy the system, but mostly because the dynamics of their operation permit no other option. They forever teeter on the edge of the precipice between success and utter failure, their efforts simply drive them higher and higher up the mountain but always at the edge of the cliff. Only when the reach the top, and utterly destroy anything within their reach, will they achieve stability. They will preserve the forms and institutions, leaving a facade which legitimizes their power, much like the Roman Emperors left the Senate intact but empty. Real power is transferred elsewhere, to the Party, or Praetorian Guards.
    This is what is happening to your country. It has happened before, to other countries. Most recently, it happened in Germany, circa 1933. In historical terms, your situation now is analogous to Germany, 1936-1938.
    This is not Godwinism, which generally parallels the latter period, Germany 1942-1945, when the society, having reached its peak and in accelerating decline, became truly toxic. Rather, we are paralleling with remarkable fidelity, the early part of the disintegration of the Weimar Republic.
    The issue invites other comparisons, somewhat loose and amusing. 9/11 is the Reichstag Fire, Afghanistan is your Rhineland. Iraq is your Czechoslovakia. Britain your Austria (it shows far too little independence to be Italy, to the extent that there is a parallel to Italy in this mix, it is Israel or Pakistan, puffed up military states with a big ally and their own geopolitical agendas). Canada, I hope, will be your Switzerlans, I’m not looking forward to an Anschluss. I am very much afraid that Iran is your Poland. Comparisons like this are tempting but not really useful.
    The truth is that historical incidents seldom repeat with any great fidelity. What does repeat are patterns. The syndrome you are undergoing has been well documented.
    The question is, what can you do about it? Does the syndrome inevitably run its course, or can it be interrupted. Can the system be regained, restabilized, re-instituted.
    This would require a further broader historical analysis and the examination of more case histories. I would argue that it can be. This syndrome is so virulent precisely because it contains its own destruction, so one would assume that it is possible to stop it and engineer its collapse.
    The first step, however, is to understand fully and frankly, without any illusions whatsoever, what you are dealing with.
    Monsters.
    Not Americans, not decent human beings, not people like yourself, and not people you can reason with or dialogue with.
    Monsters.
    This is an appallingly difficult step to take, in part because the entire culturation of your political society is designed to prevent that outlook. You can’t reason with your enemy if you believe that they are monsters. Thus, in order for the system to work, you have to accept that they are not. The system works well, so long as the enemy are not actually monsters.
    But they really are monsters.
    Take a look at Iraq. 200,000 dead, possibly climbing towards 300,000. An administration of utter violence and utter corruption. A conquest based on lies. Look at Abu Ghraib. Guantanomo. Renditions. Look at ‘no fly’ lists which included Democratic Senator Kennedy.
    Go lurk on the list topics of Little Green Footballs, Captains Quarters, Free Republic. Listen to the rhetoric. Think about how murderous and violent and absolutely uncompromising the rhetoric is.
    Sure, you think to yourself, these are just the buffoon red meat eaters. Think again. These guys are the outer edges yes. But there are channels of communication and awareness between the outer edges and the periphery. Consider Senator Allen’s use of the term Maccaca (monkey, a code word for ‘nigger’, and an explicitly racist term), or Bush’s extensive use of political code words like ‘Dred Scott’ in the debate (actually a message about Roe v. Wade). Violent and lunatic ideas are tested out on the fringes, voiced by flakes like Michael Savage or Ann Coulter, and unless they are shouted down, steadily make their way inwards until Dick Cheney or Karl Rove are saying them.
    The point is, that you are dealing with monsters. And if you have any doubts, if you have any thought that you are dealing with anything but monsters, then you will lose and they will eat you. I say this not to frighten you, but merely as a statement of the nature of the beast. This is how the world works.
    Your only option is to accept that you are dealing with monsters and act accordingly.
    If you do not accept this, then you will either be destroyed, or you will become a monster yourself, simply by acculturation.
    Understand that the old political era of moderation, of communication, of compromise and dialogue is over. You will have to learn new tactics and new approaches. More, you will have to learn their tactics and approaches, and learn to combat or defend against them.
    As I said, they continually stand on the precipice between success and utter failure. The right push, the right time, can topple them. There have already been a series of incidents, including New Orleans, that might have undone them.
    The reason that they have kept on going, and I do not say this to cast blame, is you and people like you. You practice politics of conciliation, compromise, accommodation. You give, they take. You do not go for the jugular when they are down, they keep going, they keep taking. They give nothing. You could have stopped them. So far, you have refused to act, because you do not understand what they are and how they work.
    There you go. You asked. I answered.

    Reply

  78. Pissed Off American says:

    “But what I think POA (and Carroll) underestimate is the extent to which there are deep and legitimate disagreements about which way to go among wide swaths of the American public. On any number of key issues. It is NOT simply that most folks are dupes and misinformed, though some are. A lot of people really do know what they think, and they don’t agree with the way “we” think. Unless WE come to terms with that central fact–that we are a profoundly heterogenous country–we will never turn things around.”
    Oh bullshit. The majority of Americans, if they knew, would be INCENSED at the fact that their votes are not being legitimately counted. You are saying that Americans are not of a one minded consensus that out votes should be counted????
    HORSESHIT!!! We are not talking policy directions or ideals here, we are talking about the actual criminal subversion of our Democracy. My point is that we need to pursue making the reality of this criminal subversion known to ALL Americans, and get it out from under the label of “conspiracy theory”.
    And you ain’t helping with this pseudo intellectual political mumbo jumbo that you try to muddy the waters with. Most Americans are simply too complacent, and completely unaware of how threatened our Democracy truly is. We need to inform the general population, and we need to do it quick.
    Gee, why are you so argumentative towards that premise?

    Reply

  79. Marky says:

    I think that changes in law have enabled the swing towards fascism in this country—several steps over the last four decades were calculated to give more power to the right wing and the ultra-rich.
    Foremost in my mind are the Supreme Court decision from the 1970s which ruled that campaign contributions are free speech, and the changes in media regulation that have led to huge corporations owning the large news outlets.
    In my opinion, the reason that Dean’s candidacy was torpedoed by an alliance of the news media, who ran a doctored videotape over 800 times in one week to discredit him, was that he had proposed breaking up the media conglomerates.
    In a much more stark fashion, we see that Bush’s regime has been enabled by breaking laws, over and over again, without any penalty. Bush IS above the law now, by virtue of his past law-breaking. The changes to our media and campaign structure were legal, but also inimical.

    Reply

  80. mlaw230 says:

    Where to begin?
    First, the reality is that the average american is hugely ignorant of any culture outside his own. So in America more than any other culture, there is this huge “fly wheel” on popular culture and belief that is just impervious to reason, which i sreflected in our politics. Whatever group is perceived to be the “swing vote”, this time around, is probably deciding based on a very limited and unreliable set of facts and it takes a long time, and a lot of bad results, to turn that around.
    Second, we have gone through a very significant change in the past few years. Information from the internet is available to all, misinformation is subject to critical analysis, our military is at the same time all powerful and entirely ineffective, and misinformation abounds, yet the decision making timeline process has been shrunk to the point of becoming a joke.
    We, meaning the enlightened or at least informed,(and i know that sounds arrogant), simply are not relevant, it doesn’t matter what you know,its what you think of in time, and whether you can convince your fellows in the first 15 seconds, because if you don’t the argument is lost. anything complicated is automatically suspect.
    I like to think I am “moderate” Den, but only in the sense that I do recognize that the Conservative, or the libertarian, have valid points, honorably held. That is not to say that I agree with the present crowd of propagandists and yes, I think criminals. Few truly understant our system, and fewer still understand that the current problems were anticipated long ago. The system is like a sailboat that inevitable rights itself, unfortunately it also will kill a lot of people first. The truck ( to switch metaphors) is clearly in the ditch, but if you just yank on the wheel, you are likely to cross the highway and get everybody killed. So yes, I recognize the danger, i am hopeful that those who can actually do something about it are doing so and I am trying very very hard not to panic.
    So my question, how did we get here? why are we experiencing this level of ideolgical cowardice and political foolishness at this time, is there a larger historical trend that we are missing?
    I have some ideas, but i would love to hear what you all thing, particulary the canadians who have front row seats but no dog in the fight.

    Reply

  81. Den Valdron says:

    MP, sorry if my comments seem despairing. It’s not my country, so I fancy I see a little more clearly what’s going on.
    Can you save yourselves? Maybe. But you won’t do it from simply coasting through the system and trusting to the moderate wisdom of soccer Moms.
    Regaining America will take something very close to a war effort. And I hate the term ‘war’ because its trite and overused, next thing you know, we’ll have war on some verb or other.
    The moderates are going to have to wake up and realize what they are dealing with and what’s going on. No more blase ‘ho de ho de ho’ attitude towards elections, no more triangulations, no more kissing off the base pursuing soccer Moms. Fight like hell, scream like a banshee at every instance of Electoral fraud, go after Diebold tooth and nail. No more compromise, no more conciliation, its just a path to date rape…
    The other alternative is that at some point, the decision will be made for you. Your economy collapses. Military disaster. America is fucked and ruined. When that happens, the ruling junta is out. The rest of you can try and put humpty dumpty back together, but it’ll be a smaller and shattered nation.

    Reply

  82. Den Valdron says:

    Good lord yes, its wildly destructive in many communities. Fetal alcohol syndrome is a runaway problem.
    There are roots behind it, of course. Unemployment, lack of hope, cultural dislocation. But even in white mainstream society alcohol and alcoholism is a devastating force. First nation societies lack many of the buffers and defenses, and have fewer options, so its even more brutal.

    Reply

  83. Marky says:

    MP,
    Carroll is welcome to her opinion of Hagel.
    I think he’s worse than useless.
    What this country needs is more Republicans defecting to the Democratic Party, as happened in Kansas recently.
    No elected Republican will stand up to Bush on the important matters. Only a unified Democratic majority in the House or Senate can effect change.

    Reply

  84. MP says:

    POA writes: “The only reason that 98% of America is not as angry as I am is because they are woefully misinformed, disengaged, and discouraged to the point of apathy. ”
    I disagree with this. I agree with POA about the criminality of this administration and its various nefarious deeds, the compromised electoral process and the like.
    But what I think POA (and Carroll) underestimate is the extent to which there are deep and legitimate disagreements about which way to go among wide swaths of the American public. On any number of key issues. It is NOT simply that most folks are dupes and misinformed, though some are. A lot of people really do know what they think, and they don’t agree with the way “we” think. Unless WE come to terms with that central fact–that we are a profoundly heterogenous country–we will never turn things around.
    In fact, the idea that folks would agree with us if only they were better informed–while perhaps true on some issues–is actually an arrogant stance that dooms us to failure in any arena where we are trying to accomplish something beyond convincing folks who already agree with us. The idea that we know what’s what and the rest are “sheeple” is silly.
    In this regard, Carroll’s “idea” that we should throw out every member of Congress is an example of this non-thinking and non-strategy. It’s laughable, really. Try running or organizing on this “strategy,” and reality will be your teacher. When your “guy” gets three votes (from you, your family and your friends), who ya gonna blame? Diebold?
    Mlaw’s strategy isn’t just about “hope,” as Den suggests, it’s about working with the reality and electorate we have. And (as someone said in another thread, maybe mlaw) figuring out how we got to where we are now as a country. If your only answer to this question is “those lying, criminal sacks of shit stole our country,” I’d suggest thinking a little deeper.
    Marky…Carroll likes Hagel. What do you make of that? Should we start calling her Eva?

    Reply

  85. marky says:

    MP,
    I think Den et. al. are saying you have to accept the nature of the problem before any solution is possible
    The GOP has become a massive criminal enterprise which taints anyone associated with it, and which uses tools more associated with Uzbek oil-renderers and Mafia enforcers than democracies.
    Ergo, there is NO middle ground, NO possibility of discussion with Republicans.
    Only a Republican who defects and denounces his party can possibly be trusted.
    Steve is completely wasting his time talking to enablers like Hagel. Hagel has made his bed with the 4th Reich—forget him.

    Reply

  86. MP says:

    I guess the problem with Den’s, POA’s, and Carroll’s position(s) is this: There’s noting to be done. According to them, the game is already lost. So what are we discussing? How do they propose to take back the government and restore checks and balances? Staying home won’t do it. Going out into the streets–unless we ALL do it–including all those middle of the roaders–and do it weekly or at least monthly–won’t do it. Certainly, writing in CAPS on this blog won’t do it. So what do you propose? POA says, “the first pol who tells the truth wins.” But honestly, when did THAT ever win an election? ‘Member Mondale and taxes? That was small potatoes compared with this, and he lost big time. Carter told the truth, and now he’s building houses. Again, what do you propose–seriously? Maybe it all has to unravel until even the dogs in the street can see it for what it really is–and then we try to pick up the pieces. Ideas anyone?

    Reply

  87. Pissed Off American says:

    American values…..
    Hizbollah stumps up cash for Lebanese war victims
    By Alistair Lyon, Special Correspondent
    BEIRUT (Reuters) – Hizbollah handed out bundles of cash on Friday to people whose homes were wrecked by Israeli bombing, consolidating the Iranian-backed group’s support among Lebanon’s Shi’ites and embarrassing the Beirut government.
    continues at….
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060818/ts_nm/mideast_dc
    Movie star donates 400 Playstations to Israel
    By Nick Farrell: Friday 18 August 2006, 06:47
    STAR OF the silver screen, Adam Sandler has been doing his part in charity fund raising for the victims of the Israel-Lebanon war. He is sending 400 play stations to Israel.
    The Anger Management star said the Playstations would be delivered to those families whose houses had been damaged in the fighting.
    continues at……
    http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33767

    Reply

  88. Pissed Off American says:

    Hey Den, is alcoholism as big a problem with native Canadians as it is with native americans?

    Reply

  89. Den Valdron says:

    It’s Den, not Ven, actually.
    I’m a Canadian, so I have no direct involvement or influence in American party politics.
    I encourage and support Canadian traditions of fairness, accountability and transparency at the Provincial and Federal level. I write, I speak, I argue. In my line of work, I actually practice aboriginal law, and so I do advocacy for native Canadians in order to seek greater social justice. I try to keep myself informed as to various issues.
    As to whether I support a movement for American draft dodgers or refugees, well, we’ll see.

    Reply

  90. Pissed Off American says:

    OK, Carroll, POA, Ven, what are YOU going to do about it?
    Posted by mlaw230
    Be extremely vocal with neighbors, friends, associates and acquaintances. Run bumper stickers with internet “.com” addresses to progressive websites that are discussing TRUTHS. Correcting misinformation when I hear it, and telling the people where to go to prove to themselves that it IS misinformation. And fighting tooth and nail the snake salesmen, such as yourself, that would have us believe that moderation or business as usual is going to fix things.
    The only reason that 98% of America is not as angry as I am is because they are woefully misinformed, disengaged, and discouraged to the point of apathy. And buddy, you ain’t helping with weak admissions that the electoral process is broken, yet touting our vote as a solution. Or by stating that some hotshot prosecuter is going to use the law to stop an administration and a political process that has NO RESPECT for the law.
    Look, I might not be able to stop these bastards from screwing us, but at least I can help the people around me realize that they are in fact getting screwed. And the Bush Administration is running out of vaseline, so they are making my job alot easier.
    But when that vaseline is all gone, watch out, because thats when they are going to hit us hard with ANOTHER neo-con manufactured “trifecta”.

    Reply

  91. mlaw230 says:

    OK, Carroll, POA, Ven, what are YOU going to do about it?

    Reply

  92. Pissed Off American says:

    Islamo-fascist boogie men or decades old murders. I can’t figure out if we live in a Boo-ocracy or a tabloidocracy. But hang in there folks, Reid will rescue you just as soon as he finds his way out of AIPAC’s colon. And if Reid gets stuck, theres always McCain. Just give him a call and tell him what you want to hear, and he’ll have his writers incorporate it into the script.
    And if all else fails, remember, theres always the “vote”. Bush keeps it in the same closet he keeps the “rule of law” in.

    Reply

  93. Pissed Off American says:

    Meanwhile, the media is on a blitz, feeding us Bush’s excuse for IGNORING the opinion of the court about the NSA domestic spying. “Congress takes too long”, “we are only spying on terrists”, “the danger is grave and pressing”, etc.. Isn’t it great knowing that these assholes that brought you Enron, Iraq, and Katrina are now telling us they know best what is good for America, and screw the rule of law? So the NSA spying continues, despite the opinion of the court. But hey, don’t worry about it, mlaw has informed us that it is going to fix itself, and doing NOTHING is going to pay fantastiic dividends.
    So hush up, people, help is right around the corner.

    Reply

  94. Carroll says:

    I agree with Den…
    And mlaw230..I am afraid you are infected with the “it can’t happen here” delusion..because nothing has actually “happened” to you personally yet….use your imagination.
    I never imagined this country would “choose” to attack Iraq on ginned up fake evidence, or that they would to this day continue the lies about it, or that congress would go along with it, or that our press would be totally controlled and slanted, or that the US of A would support in our name and cover for the international war crimes being committed by Isr, or that 90% of the congress would go along with that too or that our taxmoney would go to pay journalist to plant stories favorable to this adm or that our tax money would go to faith based organizations who are allowed to discriminate against a person of a different religion when using our money, or the adm would sign a document saying using “Premptive Nuclear” strikes were a acceptable new policy for the US.
    Count ’em up ….how many laws have been broken in the above..or how many have been done because we have no laws made in congress to prevent it..dream on…we no longer have a functioning democracy.
    And you should have watched the hearing on the lobbying issue…it was pure comedy….the only thing both dems and repubs could agree on…and I half expected them to break down laughing at their own pretend hearing as they nodded and agreed with all the lobby org reps testifying that really nothing needs to change except the politicans need better bookkeeping on all their lobby sponsored trips and perks. What a joke.

    Reply

  95. Den Valdron says:

    Well actually, I wouldn’t be going out into the streets. I’d be guarding the border for refugees and incident. I’m Canadian.
    I’m kind of a fascinated and horrified observer of the American scene. What I see now is a historical process repeated over and over, the monsters take over.
    I appreciate mlaw230’s faith in the system.
    But how about this. What are the odds of electoral manipulation of the vote?
    Let’s face it, in order to get Subpoena power the Democrats have to either win the House, the Senate or both. I believe the House handicap is about what, 30 or 40 seats? The Senate handicap is 9 or 10? Remember that decades of gerrymandering have reduced the competitiveness of Congressional seats. Nowadays, 98% of Incumbents get re-elected.
    To take back the Senate, the Democrats need to take at least 6, maybe 7 Senate seats. About what? 15? 20 Senate seats are up for grabs? Not so great odds. All the Republicans have to do is hold 4 or 5 and they keep the Senate. Then there’s the house. Okay, big free for all. The Dems need to win 15 or 20. All the Republicans need to do is keep a dozen. The Democrats could make big gains and still be stuck out in the wilderness.
    So even with a mighty tide, its going to be difficult for the Democrats to sweep the Republicans out of power.
    And supposing they do, supposing the votes are there… Hey, this is a gang that fixes elections, remember? That gets away with fixing elections? You really figure that they won’t be desperate to prevent the Democrats from getting subpoena power.
    So, in a handful of key seats, the vote shifts 5%, or 15% (unexplained documented swings of 19% or more have already been observed, see Max Cleland or Tom Daschle). So far, you’ve been having fraud in two presidential and at least one midterm election. So… who is going to complain, and who is going to listen?
    As for the lobbying issue, I’m not seeing a big groundswell on that front. The reality is that election campaigns have become so incredibly expensive that corporations largely control the process for both parties. These same corporations control the media that largely does not report on this.
    Bush is at 36%. Hey Cheney’s at 18%. Neither one of them is going anywhere for three more years. Both of them have all the resources at their disposal.
    Yes, a lot of Republicans are going down on corruption charges. But not enough to swing the balance. And you won’t hear anything about the Franklin/Feith/AIPAC affair. No American politician is going to challenge AIPAC, and no prosecutor will be allowed to get far on an investigation.
    Are the courts ruling against the President? Yeah they are. We’ll see how far that goes.

    Reply

  96. Pissed Off American says:

    With all due respect, the only way to blow this is to over play the hand, all you need is the votes of the vast middle, you don’t need to turn everybody into Noam Chomsky, but if you try you are going to lose.
    Posted by mlaw230
    ROFLMAO!!!!! You admit in one breath that the electoral process is corrupt, and in the next breath you tout our vote as the tool for change.
    Heres the deal. The cat is out of the bag, and under this administration our democracy is DEAD. KAPUT. No longer in existence. HISTORY.
    And your sacharin mewling posture of moderation is designed to do little more than buy time for these bastards to cement thier hold on power. They KNOW the gig is up, and that the American people are beginning to recognize this charade for what it is. There is no question that the direction this country is heading will lead to inevitable massive dissent and revolt. And any rational look at the Patriot Act, the “Free Speech Zones”, and Bush’s active programs of evesdropping and spying on American citizens should tell us that he is activelly engaged in implementing policies and legislation designed to control, stifle, and criminalize our dissent.
    Truth be known, I highly distrust any INFORMED Americans who are not angry as hell, and screaming for indictments. And I am particularly aghast at and distrustful of people like yourself, who state “Yeah, the system is broken, but just be patient, the lying bastards that broke it are going to fix it for us”. That premise is a sign of ignorance, denial, or dishonesty. All you are doing is buying time for the criminals running the show. Its time we stopped doing that.
    And I am sorry, I see you for a Trojan Horse, telling the Dems how to LOSE in the future. I am not the only pissed off American, I am a member of the MAJORITY, NOT the minority. Give us an honest politician that is willing to tell Bush and Cheney to GO FUCK THEMSELVES on thier way to prison, and willing to tell the American people WHY Bush and Cheney should go fuck themselves on their way to prison, and you will have a winner, hands down.

    Reply

  97. mlaw230 says:

    Thanks to anonymous – but no worries, POA and Ven are just frustrated and rightly so. It just sounds hostile.
    As a rhetorical trick the “hoping” thing may also work, its just intellectually dishonest. The plan is to amend the AUMF to prevent an attack on Iran and Syria and to win an election to gain the power of subpoena. What have you suggested other than mewing about going “to the streets” after which you will no doubt have a latte and congratulate yourself on striking a blow for freedom.
    Ven correctly points out the agenda of the right, all of which is legal. But the body politic has a way of expelling the truly extreme and we appear to be on the way to doing that.
    Not to venture to far into panglossian sunshine but:
    1) There appear to be ALOT of right wing politicians about to be indicted on corruption charges.
    2) The Courts ARE ruling aginst the administration on a rapidly increasing rate.
    3) Public support for the President is at about 36% and does not appear to have bumped up as a result of the British Plot (alleged)
    4) The Republican Party seems, if anything, to be held in lower regard than the President.
    5) The Republican congressional Caucus does not appear to understand how much trouble it is in on the lobbying issue.
    6) Many of the old line, and I think honorable, Republicans are disassociating themselves with the current crowd, even Fukuyama (sp?) the patron saint of te neocons has essentially abandoned the program. there is also a libertarian strain in the republican party that is not pleased.
    7) I would expect to hear more about the Franklin/Feith/aipac matter with the real chance of high level indictments.
    With all due respect, the only way to blow this is to over play the hand, all you need is the votes of the vast middle, you don’t need to turn everybody into Noam Chomsky, but if you try you are going to lose.

    Reply

  98. Den Valdron says:

    Was I hostile? I didn’t intend to be.
    My thesis was essentially that the American judiciary has been captured by partisan ideologues and extremists who have more regard for their agenda than the constitution or case law.
    I think that’s been pretty much proven out. Simply look to ‘Bush vs. Gore’, a decision which cannot be explained except as a partisan political act.
    Nor is the capture of the Judiciary an accident, but rather a part of a deliberative strategy by right wing ideologues who saw what they perceived as a ‘liberal activist judiciary’ and set out to transform it. This underlay the opposition to literally any Judicial nominations under Clinton, and to the assembly line of nominations, including radically extreme ones, under Bush II.
    America is in the grip of a social movement which has defrauded Presidential elections, and achieved a sort of quadruple crown of domination of the Presidency, the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court and the Media. They’ve probably got the military and intelligence agencies too, but its an open question as to whether these entities have managed to retain their professionalism.
    So, what’s mlaw230’s best strategy at this time?
    He’s ‘hoping’
    He’s hoping that the Judiciary is not completely and thoroughly radicalised, though he concedes its markedly more conservative.
    He’s hoping that the key Mid Term Elections will not be the subject of fraud at critical points.
    Checks? Nope. Balances? Nope. Redress? Nope. Actual limits on the movement? Nope.
    He’s just ‘hoping’ that these people who have so savagely and fraudulently obtained power, and who have determinedly consolidated their grip at every point will ‘play fair’ and gracefully relinquish power should they happen to lose. And of course, this would mean exposure of their corruption and potential unwinding of their plans and dreams.
    Yeah. Okay. I’m sure that will happen. Good for him. Way to go. Keep that chin up. Just keep ‘hoping’ because my friend, at this point, its all you got left.
    But let’s not have any illusions.

    Reply

  99. .... says:

    mlaw, i find your comments responsive and realistic.. if some of the posters on this thread come across as hostile i believe it’s due to their valuing hostility more then civilry.. the internet is an outlet where some feel the absence of a phsyical person standing in front of them allows for all sorts of behaviour which they would be unlikely to express outside internet chat sites.. however there are exceptions and some are hostile no matter whether here in internetland or elsewhere.. maybe they just need to get laid and all they have is the internet.

    Reply

  100. Den Valdron says:

    And there is your problem, mlaw230. You hope you are correct.
    The founding fathers did not pin their faith on ‘hope.’ They spent a lot of time and effort trying to put together a system of checks and balances. They did not intend to rely upon hope.
    You hope that two Supreme Court Judges and a scattering of appellate federal judges appointed without real opposition by the most radical and extremist President in history, a President who throughout his entire term has pursued a theory of unlimited Presidential power at every turn, will save your ass…
    Why? Because “they’re not so bad” and “lifetime appointments change people.”
    Uh huh. I wish you luck with that laddy, cause right now, its all you got.
    You do understand that?
    You have been backed up against the wall, one of their hands is on your throat, one hands in your pocket, their fly is unzipped.
    And your big plan is that maybe they’ll just come to their senses and go away without robbing or raping you.
    Tell you what. Let’s get together here next year, and you can tell me all about how that worked out for you, Sunshine.

    Reply

  101. mlaw230 says:

    Den: The jury is out on Alito and Roberts. I read their prior opinions and they just frankly were not that bad, although obviously Alito’s executive branch decisions are troubling. But life time appointments change people.
    As I recall the first Judge to rule against the Administration on the NSA cases was a Bush 41 appointment, and the 4th Circuit’s Lutig issued a blistering opinion on Hamden, and he was on the short list when Roberts was nominated.
    I recognize the judiciary is more conservative than it used to be, but conservative does not equal “wingnut,” and these judges are not likely to abandon basic core principals for partisanship.
    I hope I am correct, but these issues are so clear its really hard to believe that the Administration has much of a chance even with Scalia.

    Reply

  102. Den Valdron says:

    “Denying legal authority to expanding the war to Syria and Iran?”
    Bush didn’t even think he needed legal authority to invade Iraq. Read your Gonzales. The reservation of the power to declare war to Congress is now merely ‘ceremonial.’ In practical terms, the Presidents from Kennedy and Johnson, and including Nixon, Reagan and Bush I, has reserved the right and power to unilaterally exert force without the consent or consultation of congress. I don’t agree with much that Gonzales has to say.
    But when he argues that that ship has left the power, I think that for all practical considerations he is right.
    The only way congress can impede the unilateral will of the President in this regard is impeachment.
    Congress could, if its willing to accept the political consequences, cut off funding for the war, of course. That’s never ever going to happen at any time.

    Reply

  103. Den Valdron says:

    Mlaw230,
    I respectfully disagree that Americans are entitled to rely upon the judiciary from Presidential imperialism.
    The reality is that the Supreme Court was already substantially weighted towards the extreme-fringe right, with Justices Scalia, Rhenquist and Thomas forming an impressive lunatic faction that often persuaded and was unafraid of its dissents. Look up Scalia’s paranoid ravings about ‘culture wars’ sometimes.
    With Roberts and Alito, both of whom were essentially stealth extremists (with Alito being the more obviously radical and visibly corrupt of the two) the Supreme Court is now an Ideological bastion of partisan extremism. These men collectively subscribe to various forms of fringe radical extreme right wing doctrine, which comes second only to their partisan committment. This is the Dred Scot court all over again.
    However, the real damage is at Federal Court and Federal Appellate Court levels. Basically, the Republicans blocked literally hundreds of Clinton appointments for eight years. The result is that in his two terms, with Republican majorities in the House and Senate, Bush has been able to nominate and place 16 years of the most extreme and activist judges that ideology will bear. Only once did the Democrats ever stand up, and they caved to a meaningless compromise which only lead to further surrenders. Prior to Clinton, of course, we have the twelve years of Reagan/Bush I. And before that, a single carter interregnum, previously presided over by Nixon and Ford.
    Which means that what we are stuck with for moderation, are a small pool ancient doddering judges appointed by Richard fucking Nixon, and for moderates, the surviving pool of Ronald Reagan fucking Reagan picks. Feel free to vomit.
    The conclusion is that as a general rule, the Federal Courts will act as Partisan tools of various conservative and republican interests. Decisions will be made on a partisan basis. And the only restriction on Presidential powers will be against Democratic Presidents… if you ever see another one.

    Reply

  104. mlaw230 says:

    POA: I do apologize for the “shut up” part, that was immoderate.
    As I am sure you are aware the Justice Department is not part of the judicial branch, its part of the executive.
    As I recall there were thousands in the street on the day the bombs fell on Baghdad, with no effect. Vietnam went on for 4 years AFTER Kent State.
    Priority one should be denying legal authority to expanding the war to Iran and Syria, thousands of lives are at stake. If you establish that, Bush and Co will probably still want to go forward but the military may balk.
    Priority two should be a democratic majority in the house so that some oversight and investigation can take place, but that is not the only place investigation takes place.
    To win you need us poor feckless moderates to vote for the Dems, and you need those on the Right to stay home. All “moderates” want to know is that it is safe to vote for the Dems. Concentrate on that, on the wiser less militarist course, and there may well be a sea change.

    Reply

  105. Pissed Off American says:

    Yeah, well, mlaw, if you hadn’t noticed, we have a God damned apparent FELONY PERJURER for an Attorney General, and his whole purpose in life seems to be to see how far he can insert his head up Bush’s ass. So don’t be touting our Judicial Branch as some sort of rescuing asset, just waiting in the wings for the right opportunity to pounce. These bastards have shown no regards for the law thus far, and I ain’t seen them being held accountable by these thieving sharks that make up the Bar these days.
    And “when it starts to unravel” these criminals are just going to foist another “trifecta” on us, and you can expect THAT any day now. The winnings of their first trifecta have beebn spent, and they need another one, fast. And this one is gonna be doozy, because they are really going to need us on the fear train to justify killing as many Muslims as they intend to.
    And don’t be telling me to “shut up”. It is apothetic mewling excuses and limpwristed “moderation” from people like yourself that has allowed these bastards to so completely stray from America’s ideals and the rule of law. These fuckers need indicting, and they need it NOW.
    By the time you get off the pot to wipe your butt you’ll be doing it with state owned toilet paper under the watchful eye of one of Gonzales’ cameras.

    Reply

  106. karen says:

    I must say, the close up pics of Bolton are a scary sight. He looks like he should be wearing a white coat and needlessly torturing mice in a lab somewhere….
    Even when POA goes off it doesn’t scare me nearly as much!

    Reply

  107. Carroll says:

    Dear mlaw230
    “now shut up and focus on issues on which you have at least a slight chance of persuading someone.”
    Which issues would that be?
    And while I agree with you partly…I think you give too much credit to your profession in how much it can accomplish against our criminal regime.
    “The Supreme Court is well aware that it does not command a single soldier or policeman, they have the power of the pen but not the sword or the purse, but they will eventually Rule and I think it will be ugly for this administration.”
    How many times does this adm and it’s minons have to prove to you that they don’t give a damn about the law or the power of the pen?
    The first violation of the constitution was back in 2001 when Bush moved money not appropiated for his purpose without congress’s consent ..was a peep heard? No…it was a small blip in the news but without any action by congress.
    You forget who “makes’ the laws…perhaps you think dems in control of congress would bring about some demand for legal justice…I don’t, but I would love to be proved wrong….an soon enough for it to make any difference in the near future.
    “Six years is not that long to wait, none of the cases (except Youngstown and arguably Nixon) limitng Executive power actually came down while the President in question was sitting.”
    Do you think we can afford 6 years..or even two?…guess it depends on what you think will be left of the country after another 2 years.

    Reply

  108. km4 says:

    Is Bush an idiot?
    Is water wet ?

    Reply

  109. damned says:

    POA is doing his part right here and now and everyday screaming at the 34 people who visit here regularly and most all of us say “Amen” to his explosions. If he went to the streets he wouldn’t be in front of the keyboard inciting our righteous wrath, and he’d probably get arrested and thrown in Gitmo after five minutes on the street. So, POA, stay put and enrage us daily as we sit watching helplessly on own destruction, but we won’t go peacefully, our anger is too inflamed for any peacefulness while sitting before our screens.

    Reply

  110. mlaw230 says:

    POA: If ranting makes you feel better, rant away, but it isn’t effective.
    Just so you know I know: There is substantial evidence that the Diebold machines in particular can be, and have been, compromised; there is evidence that a computer program was prepared to hack the machines in florida 2000 and even without the program, it is apparently quite easy to do so with a moderate amount of computer skill without leaving a trace.
    There is irrefutable evidence that the Ohio 2004 recount was falsified and there is no way to actually audit any of the electronic voting machines outputs against a true paper trail, in fact, virtually all of the machines outputs are internally inconsistant. The 2004 exit interviews do not support the official tally and no one has satisfactorily explained why not, and these are the same polling processes with which we determine legitimacy of foreign elections in the third world. There is going to be an E-voting train wreck in November, and yes it has crossed my mind that those in power could use the train wreck to justify not leaving even if we do throw the bums out. This is also just the E-voting issue, there are also substantial issues regarding disenfranchisement, no machines, long lines, off the list etc.. etc.. We are in deep and serious trouble, perhaps deeper and more serious than ever before in our history.
    We have three branches of government, it’s safe to assume that congress, (including both parties), is currently corrupt, and the executive is the root of the problem. But the judicial system works slowly, and authoritarians such as the present Administration have a rather ironic respect for legality, it is unlikely that Justic e Roberts and Alito are going to go for reversing Marbury v Madison which is about the only chance the Administration has of prevailing in that Court on the executive Power issue.
    There are also plenty of good honest career prosecutors who will indict their mother if they think they can get a conviction. When it starts to unravel its going to go all at the same time, somebody will, if they haven’t already, enter a plea deal and we will be off to the races.
    Six years is not that long to wait, none of the cases (except Youngstown and arguably Nixon) limitng Executive power actually came down while the President in question was sitting. The Supreme Court is well aware that it does not command a single soldier or policeman, they have the power of the pen but not the sword or the purse, but they will eventually Rule and I think it will be ugly for this administration.
    Unfortunatley when you rant about things you can’t prove, or at least can’t prove in 20 seconds or less, you sound like a lunatic and you are labeled a nut. So ongratulations, you are among the few who recognize how potentially disasterous a situation we are in, now shut up and focus on issues on which you have at least a slight chance of persuading someone.

    Reply

  111. MNPundit says:

    It depends on the marches. If they are properly covered by the media like the “Immigrant” marches then they may strike a chord but marches on their do nothing except shock the general populace into being ready to learn about the issue. You have to take advantage of it and get out on the streets door-to-door person-to-person neighbor-to-neighbor to discuss an issue.
    If you do things soley by media the relationship is very shallow but if someone who you already have a relationship with discusses something with you, it is more likely to force you to think.
    Grassroots and local activism remain the best method for actual change but they are helped tremendously by powerful events like marches etc.

    Reply

  112. Frank says:

    The way I see it, Iran’s nuclear facilities will be bombed before November. The preverbial “October surprise” in spades!!… Bush’s core support by the “patriotic” evangelists, sensing the approach of the “rapture” ,will get out the idiot vote to continue our glorious leader’s goose stepping republican party control of our now full flowered fascistic nation. It will be interesting to watch what false flag happenings will occur to trigger the middle east conflagration. Israel’s ambassador to the UN Bolton, will play a big role in this catastrophy’s realization. AIPAC will sing huzzahs over their crowning achievement of the destruction of Iran’s nuclear facilities by reason of their control of the American congress and MSM.
    Alas, our foreign affairs diplomacy ended with Bush’s presidency. Our nation’s honor, built up in the world over the 200 years of our nation’s existance, has been calculatingly destroyed by this blood thirsty idiot swine of a president.

    Reply

  113. marky says:

    Speaking of going to the streets… any more multi-million man marches in Mexico over the stolen election there? I know they won’t get reported in our media. Last I read was that Obrador was being told to lie back and enjoy it as the faux certification was near completion (without counting the millions of ballots that were tossed in garbage dumps).

    Reply

  114. Carroll says:

    Well I agree with POA we should be doing something!
    Taking to the streets will not sway this adm …but if it was a large and shocking enough display it might be the lightening point for the public and those with some power in and around goverment to throw a monkey wrench into the Isrmerica plan for Iran…because Iran is on the menu, no doubt about it. There will be another Israeli “incident” after the fall elections that will be blamed on Syria and Iran and it will be full steam ahead after that.
    It’s too bad we don’t have a draft. We ought to have a draft right now, with no exceptions for anything except physcial or mental disability. If we did we could count on the college agers to energize a revolt to Iraq and coming Iran war.

    Reply

  115. Pissed Off American says:

    “Be patient, the wall is crumbling slowly, we got a good ruling on the NSA today and more will follow. Perhaps the most important thing to establish through direct action now is whether Congress will impeach if Bush attacks Iran or Syria without further authorization from Congress.”
    You gotta be kidding me. If they haven’t thrown the treasonous prick out on his ear because of his actions the last six years they sure as hell ain’t gonna do it now.
    “History will take care of the thieving and the lieing…….”
    Yep, just like it did in communist Russia.

    Reply

  116. Pissed Off American says:

    “POA: Although I appreciate your passion, going to the “Streets” will get you nowhere. Similarly, there may well be a huge problem with Diebold, both in the past and this November. Unfortunately, we will never know for sure unless we provide somebody responsible the subpoena power required. Diebold chicanery can shift a close election, so we have to make sure its not a close election.”
    Obviously you haven’t bothered to research this, or you are purposely misrepresenting the FACTS. When you take the time to inform yourself, and know WTF you are talking about, get back to me and we will discuss it.

    Reply

  117. Zoe Rastegar says:

    Dear Mr. Clemon:
    Thank you for your article expressing your opinion about Mr. Bolton. I guess this is not a surprise to us how and for who Mr. Bolton works.
    There must have been some wisdom on the part of those who didn’t approve of his nomination to UN.
    Please let me know how can one participate in such debates at New America Foundation.
    Regards,
    Zoe Rastegar
    President
    Accent Productions, Inc.
    http://www.accentproductions.org

    Reply

  118. vachon says:

    With the level of slime this guy oozes, it’s a wonder he can sit upright in a chair.

    Reply

  119. MNPundit says:

    Considering out reputation and actions in that region, it’s probably for the best that US HAS no peacekeepers there.
    We’re not a neutral party in this conflict after all. Bolton, Condi, and Bush made that abundantly clear.

    Reply

  120. John B. says:

    Good points mlaw230, and even though I am hopeful (unbelievably, still) and tend to agree with your analysis I don’t blame POA for the hyperbole and sense of crisis. He, (if he is a he) is mostly right.
    We are through the looking glass and even with your sense of turnabout and pendulum swing, I am not convinced that we will ever pass back through. We are fractured and divided as a nation and even though a certain percentage of this divisiveness has been engineered by the crooks liars and war criminals on the otherside; I am not ready to make nice and perhaps never will be…unless they are tried prosecuted and convicted for crimes against the country and indeed, humanity. A truth and reconciliation comission will be necessary at a minimum.

    Reply

  121. mlaw230 says:

    POA: Although I appreciate your passion, going to the “Streets” will get you nowhere. Similarly, there may well be a huge problem with Diebold, both in the past and this November. Unfortunately, we will never know for sure unless we provide somebody responsible the subpoena power required. Diebold chicanery can shift a close election, so we have to make sure its not a close election.
    Be patient, the wall is crumbling slowly, we got a good ruling on the NSA today and more will follow. Perhaps the most important thing to establish through direct action now is whether Congress will impeach if Bush attacks Iran or Syria without further authorization from Congress.
    Conceptually, Bush maintains that these are different fronts in the same war, it underpins his entire legal argument so if he goes to war he will say that he already has the authority. On the other hand if the AUMF is reconsidered and expressly limited or enough Congressman are of record declaring unauthorized action impeachable, you may be able to head him off.
    History will take care of the thieving and the lieing, and if there is truth to the Diebold stories someone will spill the beans soon enough, but if the bombing of Syria and Iran are not prevented these will be very small potatoes.

    Reply

  122. Patience says:

    Click my name for the link.

    Reply

  123. Patience says:

    Billmon predicted this about a month ago…

    Reply

  124. Jimmy says:

    No, no, POA, you can get on the street right now, start right now, I’ll …. well, I’ll be right behind you ….. but first I gotta do some stuff … and then …. well, after I’m done I’ll be out on the streets with you….. yeah …. me and you, POA, and probably Caroll ….. I’m gonna wear my football helmet … whats you gonna wear? ….. maybe make a sign saying ……. “EVERYTHING these bastards in the Bush Administration touch turns to gold plated shit !!” …… I think this will change my life ….. see ya on the street.
    Best regards

    Reply

  125. Pissed Off American says:

    “Write to your local newspaper and let them know where Democrats stand, and that we’re not going to allow our party and our candidates to be smeared.”
    Meanwhile, the Diebold machines snicker in the background, an all knowing smile on thier shiny new faces. You people really don’t get it, do you?

    Reply

  126. Pissed Off American says:

    For those of you with access to this morning’s Los Angeles Times, it pretty well spells things out for us in regards to Lebanon. There are three articles that are particularly telling. The first is about an American citizen of Lebanese origin, a moderate individual who cherished American ideals and was an advocate for our freedoms, a sensible voice. He was killed in the Israeli bombings. The second article has to do with the complete absence of the Lebanese government in south Lebanon, and the extensive and loudly heralded role Hezbollah is taking in extending aid and rebuilding efforts. They are the knights in shining armor, riding to the rescue of Lebanon and the Lebanese people. There are Hezbollah flags everywhere, and they are the people’s heroe. The third article is about how the Bush Administration is advancing some ignorant bullshit about pouring money and aid into Lebanon “to compete with Hezbollah” for the hearts and minds of the Lebanese people. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????? Are these assholes in the White House so rascist that they think the Lebanese people are a collective batch of raghead IDIOTS??? Does this drooling buffoon Bush REALLY think that the Lebanese people failed to note the wink and a nod Bush gave Israel while they were bombing Lebanon back to the Stone Age? Do these asssholes REALLY think the Lebanese people failed to note the red white and blue bombs raining on them, stamped “MADE IN AMERICA”??? And how stupid do these treasonous asses think Americans are? Are we just going to quietly stand by and watch as these fuckers squander our tax money rebuilding a nation thety just squandered our tax money destroying? And, God forbid, are we so cowed by these sons of bitches that we will quietly watch as the Monkey Boy sends Haliburton or Bechtel in there, with Blackwater providing security, to the tune of a couple million a day, or, more true to form, with a blank check???
    I got news for you people, EVERYTHING these bastards in the Bush Administration touch turns to gold plated shit. And we end up paying for the gold, and eating the shit.
    Meanwhile, we all natter on about “candidates”, or whether or not the French efforts smell better than Bolton’s do.
    If you haven’t figured it out by now, the Bush Administration is going to do WHATEVER THE HELL IT CHOOSES TO DO. And screw the law, screw morality, screw human rights, screw the constitution, screw the Muslims, and screw the American people.
    We shoulda been on the the streets, en masse, a LOOOOONG time ago. We missed the window.
    We’re cooked.

    Reply

  127. abbie says:

    This is what the November election will all come down to:
    “Orrin Hatch was quoted in Tuesday’s Tooele Transcript Bulletin as saying Middle East terrorists are ‘waiting for the Democrats here to take control, let things cool off and then strike again.'”
    Pounded over and over again from sea to shining sea for the next 80 days and the American people won’t dare to vote for the terrorists and become traitors. You vote for a Democrat and you are a traitor who will probably need some surviellance as you go over the edge into conniption fits saying to yourself, “OK, if they think I’m a terrorist traitor, ok, let’s get it on!” Back to the ’60s times 100, baby!

    Reply

  128. Election Day 2006 says:

    Here’s something concrete you can do about Karl Rove’s attempt to politicize Ned Lamont’s victory and put Democratic Senate candidates on the defensive. It’s a very powerful tool and takes very little time to use. Share it widely with friends in states with key Senate races and share it with all blogs you read.
    “Write to your local newspaper and let them know where Democrats stand, and that we’re not going to allow our party and our candidates to be smeared.”
    http://www.democrats.org/speakout

    Reply

  129. edolfoe says:

    It’s a mirage ….. all a mirage.
    Republican candidate Joe Benedict Arnoldman is whoopin’ our anti Iraq war Nedly Lamont in the latest poll, 53% to 41%, and we think wees gonna win back the legislature this November?! with Connecticut going pro-War. Yikes! What a difference a terrorist plot makes to the national knee-jerk’s reactions.
    Oh, my gawd!!!! The Evil ones are doin’ a little jig Berchestgarten style [they call it the Eagle’s Nest].

    Reply

  130. Kathleen says:

    I’m praying the Dems on the SFRC hang very tough on those NSA Intercepts that Bolton requested and refuse to vote on Bolton’s confirmation unless and until they receive the requested documents. That would be one way to stop Bolton’s confirmation and to protect the Senate’s Consitutional role in the confirmation process.
    The UN Charter requires member Nations to appoint representatives who uphold the UN Charter. John Bolton does not meet that criteria. He feels nothing but contempt for the UN, except to use it, when convenient, to legitimize our bloody goals.

    Reply

  131. marcus says:

    Much as the Cheney would love to see a UN force led by the French fail, I think the Bush’s #1 concern is their own regime’s stability. I doubt they want to see any spikes in gas prices with less than 90 days before the election.

    Reply

  132. Detlef says:

    On the other hand, mlaw230…
    If France really wants to be an effective broker and to be taken seriously in the Middle East, it needs to be backed by the EU. Or at least by some of the bigger European countries. And Germany for example has pretty close ties with Israel (even militarily) while still being on good terms with the Arab states too. So any French tilt towards Arab interests likely would be “softened” by other European states.

    Reply

  133. MP says:

    Excellent points, mlaw.

    Reply

  134. mlaw230 says:

    Fair enough. I think a tilt towards Israel is not necessarily inconsistant with an honest broker. Considering the neighborhood, i.e. a stated intent to destroy Israel, and Israel’s relative size, American military and diplomatic support is all that stands between Israrel and oblivion. A position of honest support, openly disclosed, as it has been, does not undermine our position.
    This is not to say that our policy has been always correct. We should long ago have used our influence to foster a two state solution for Palestine and an end to Settlments with which Israel has slowly annexed the West Bank.
    France, with its substantial Muslim population and history of anti semitism, will have its own “tilt” which is unlikely to be favorable to Israel in the long term.
    Right or wrong, for good or ill, our influence in the region has suffered and will not be easily restored.

    Reply

  135. Den Valdron says:

    mlaw20, I found it really amusing that the US fancies itself as an ‘honest broker’ tilted towards Israel.

    Reply

  136. sdemetri says:

    Seems to me if Seymour Hersh’s connections are correct, and given Ray Close’s post at juancole.com yesterday, and the nonsensical but continuous repetition out of the White House of how Hezbollah lost big time in this last go-round, Bush is on a trajectory for bombing Iran. With as many Dems uncritical of Israel’s campaign in Lebanon, and unwilling to short circuit the war rhetoric or press for direct negotiations with Iran, as foolish as it might seem I can see them getting behind such folly. Or at least sitting on their hands until the momentum is too great to stop. Bolton being cool to support the cease-fire provisions, while taking credit for it, works very well in the argument…”we tried everything we could. Now we must act against the root cause, Iran.”

    Reply

  137. chris from boca says:

    steve , josh marshall reports via NYT’s that the president was puzzled that 10,000 shiites would demonstrate in Baghdad in support of Hezbullah.
    puzzled.
    is it any wonder that people like Bolton have such influence over our foreign affairs?
    does anyone doubt that uncle dick cheney forgot to advise the boy prince of this link between Iran and the shiites and Hezbos?
    cheney has been doing business with the same people for the decade before he returned to power.

    Reply

  138. mlaw230 says:

    So, it appears that the vacume formed by our absince from middle eastern diplomatic affairs is being filled by the French? This is probably not the final indignity of the Bush foreign policy construct, but it may be the most long lasting.
    This can’t be good news for the Israelis either. If France supplants the US as resident “honest broker” the tilt will be much more favorable to arab interests. Apparently petulent, whinning, moralizing obstructionism just doesn’t work on the world stage.
    The world is now aware that we are not all powerful, an empire of arms relies at least in part upon the cooperation of the natives, so they no longer fear us, and they sure as hell don’t love us.
    The best we can hope for is to simply limit the damage over the next 2 1/2 years. With a concerted effort to head off a war against syria and Iran a new administration could rebuild credibiity but it will be a very long time.

    Reply

  139. Aunt Deb says:

    If Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army can work together — and there seems to be hope for this outcome — the need for a UN force is lessened. Of course, that isn’t how the Israelis and the Bush administration see it, but it is nonetheless true. After all, the IDF has pretty much withdrawn at this point. The real issue for Lebanon will be the reconstruction effort and funding for that.
    I think the effectiveness of the Bush-Cheney dissing of the UN is becoming increasingly counterproductive. John Bolton is going to go under with all the other jetsam of this administration.

    Reply

  140. big time says:

    But,
    Bolton’s handling of getting the cease fire agreement in co-operation with the French will be touted as his great over-riding achievement at the UN come time to vote in the Senate, and with this accomplishment Bolton will sail through the rest of the way to a legitmate confirmation as our Ambassador to the UN. You’ll see. Heckuva job, ‘stache!

    Reply

  141. km4 says:

    Bush is crap, says UK Deputy PM Prescott
    Criticises US handling of Middle East, condemning ‘cowboy’ President at private meeting
    By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor
    Published: 17 August 2006
    John Prescott has given vent to his private feelings about the Bush presidency, summing up George Bush’s administration in a single word: crap.
    The Deputy Prime Minister’s condemnation of President Bush and his approach to the Middle East could cause a diplomatic row but it will please Labour MPs who are furious about Tony Blair’s backing of the United States over the bombing of Lebanon.
    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1219716.ece

    Reply

  142. Will says:

    The point wasn’t that the unavailability of US troops for this mission was wrong, or even Bolton’s fault. It was simply to highlight the manner in which Bolton deliberately undermines the UN at every turn, and often misrepresents other states to make his oblique comments. (see Russia’s actual position on the applicability of Chapter VII enforcement to N.K. resolution c/f Bolton’s statements to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee).
    Bolton is a tard, and only the truly ignorant would regard his grandstanding as a genuine effort at reform.

    Reply

  143. Marky says:

    Maybe George Allen could coach an army of peace-keeping Macacas…
    Hey, and I bet the Lebanese will just LOVE the John McCain “straight talk express”. He’ll give 200% to back Israel.. and tell the Arabs to fuck themselves. They’ll miss Bush’s incompetence after they meet the racist empire-builder, McCain.

    Reply

  144. Marky says:

    Well, to be fair, how could Bolton help the force deployed in Southern Lebanon guard the Syrian border, as Bush expects it to do?
    hmm?

    Reply

  145. Den Valdron says:

    Sorry P.O.A. but these here are the killingest towel-heads you ever did see. They just kicked Israeli tail back to Tel Aviv, they seen a lot of America (mostly your bombs and ordnance), they heard a lot about America (from Iraq and Afghanistan). They are lovin’ only two things: Chewin their special flavoured bubble gum, and killing the enemy. And as it happens, they just watched your boys swallow all that special flavoured gum and they knows only one way to get it out, and their knives are dull and rusty. I am a beggin’ you, do not send your boys out there to Lebanon, cause the ones that make it back, and there won’t be many, will be coming back as girls, if you catch my drift.
    If the Shrub is hankering to kill more Muslims, have him invade Somalia again, they’re pretty harmless. But do not so much as look at Hezbollah cross eyed.

    Reply

  146. Pissed Off American says:

    You don’t want American soldiers in that situation.
    Posted by Den Valdron
    Yes, we do. After all, what better way to escalate things? Look, Den, we ain’t killin’ them sand niggers fast enough for Israel’s likin’. We gotta step things up a bit before Bush breaks for his Christmas bike ride and brush clearing orgy. Get with the program man, we got Muslims to kill.

    Reply

  147. Den Valdron says:

    U.S. participation in the U.N. Peacekeeping force? Steve, I don’t know how to break this to you but…
    1) America doesn’t have the troops any more. Your standing army is only about 490,000. Proportion of American ground troops killed or wounded is around 5% which isn’t fatal, but it is ugly, and it chops your room to maneuver. You’ve got somewhere between 150,000 and 130,000 troops locked up in Iraq, a mixture of National Guard and regular, some of whom are on their third or fourth tour. You’ve got the rest locked up in the Persian Gulf garrisons in Kuwait, Quatar, Bahrain. You’ve got 30,000 in North Korea, another 30,000 to 40,000 over east Asia. You got 1000 military bases worldwide. Training brigades are being sent to Iraq for counterinsurgency, that’s called eating your seed corn. Recruiting standards are dropping like stones, and targets aren’t being met. Unless you plan on having the coast guard do the job, America just don’t have the manpower. Period. Finito. End of story.
    2) The second thing, and there’s no gentle way to put this, is that they hate you Steve. That’s right. The Lebanese people hate you personally. There are posters in crowds of demonstrators that read “Death to Steve.” Why do they hate you personally? Because you are American, and you know John Bolton. Bolton and Condoleeza Rice spent a month running interference for Israel while it bombed the hell out of Lebanon. Bolton and Rice obstructed peace efforts. They were absolutely partisan in trying to assist Israel in every way possible. The Lebanese noticed this. And they noticed that most of the munitions being dropped on them were made in America. And they noticed that you were shipping precision munitions, cluster bombs and jet fuel to the Israelis on an urgent basis because the Israelis were using up so much dropping things on their heads they were running out. Yes, they noticed that you were supplying *brand new* stuff that was being used against them, even as the old stuff was running out. They watched television, they listened to George W. Bush. Some of them may even have read this blog. They concluded that America was not their friend. They concluded that America was not even a fair and independent third party. What they concluded was that when Israel unzips its fly to give them the old unwanted in and out, the member that pops out is red white and blue and sings yankee doodle dandy. In short, they concluded that you’re Israel’s pricks. So, they hate you. They might well hate you worse than Israel.
    So… you want to put American troops anywhere near that? Not good.
    The Lebanese will see American troops as direct proxies and agents of Israel, no different, and in many ways markedly worse than actual Israeli troops.
    The US army in peacekeeping missions (a la the previous effort in Beirut, and more particularly in Somalia) has a habit of going beyond the narrow confines of its peacekeeping mission. They like to play in the pond, they turn into just another militia, they choose up sides and it gets ugly. Hezbollah is not the Somali’s, Hezbollah takes no shit, they hit what they aim at and they bring firepower to the dance. It won’t be Rambo. It won’t be Blackhawk Down. It’ll be a combination of Beirut 1983 and Fallujah/Karbala/Bagdad 2004. You don’t want American soldiers in that situation.

    Reply

  148. Pissed Off American says:

    I doubt they really care whether a peacekeeping force has success or not. If they want to murder a few thousand more Muslims, they have certainly shown us the have no compunction about doing so. But as far as Lebanon goes, the nation itself has been set back decades. Mission accomplished. The infrastructure is destroyed, and peace isn’t going to change that fact. The economic reality of this fact will accomplish the same things the bombs did. Dissarray, displaced lebanese citizens, higher infant mortality rates, increased mortality from disease, etc. Theres more than one way to kill a Muslim. But even more importantly, it has enhanced the popularity of groups such as Hizbollah and Hamas within the Muslim world community. Thus we can be assured that Israel and these blood soaked fanatics in the Bush Administration, such as this asshole Bolton, will have no shortage of excuses to continue slaughtering Muslim men women and children.
    It was a banner month in Iraq for them as well. 3500 dead civilians for the month of July alone, and no end in sight. Lends new meaning to that sick bastard Cheney’s statement about “The insurgency is in its last throes”, eh? NOW I see what he meant. He might as well have said “The only GOOD raghead is a DEAD raghead.”
    Dead Muslims everywhere. Lebanon, the Gaza strip, Iraq. Heck, Bolton is in Seventh Heaven, everything is just going peachy. Now, if he can only figure out a way to get Bush to nuke Iran, his fondest wet dream will become reality.

    Reply

Add your comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *