Joe Biden Suggests Cheney Seriously Misguided

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Bottom line according to Joe Biden, who is effective in this exchange with Meet the Press‘ David Gregory, is that Cheney is misinformed or misleading. That’s charitable.
David Frum outlines what he thinks Cheney should be saying — and interestingly, Frum basically argues that on GITMO, terror trials, and the like, there is far more continuity from the Bush administration to Obama than there is a new course. Frum is right — and that is what is disappointing so many.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

25 comments on “Joe Biden Suggests Cheney Seriously Misguided

  1. DonS says:

    Glenn Greenwald gives a very different take on whether Cheney is feeling persecuted and is going on the “offense” as postulated above by Nadine:
    Greenwald interprets what Cheney’s behavior telegraphs, particularly, to the Obama administration::
    ” ‘. . . not only will I not hide or apologize, but I will proudly tout and defend my role in these crimes, because I know you will do absolutely nothing about it, even though the Attorney General and the President themselves said that the act to which I’m confessing is a felony.’ Does anyone doubt that Cheney’s assessment is right? And isn’t that, rather obviously, a monumental indictment of most everything?”
    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/02/16/cheney/index.html
    If Cheney’s conscience is clear it is only because it is close to the conscience, or lack thereof, of a sociopath.
    Obama, Holder, what have you wrought?

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  2. DonS says:

    Cheney, a big supporter of waterboarding. Turley indicts Cheney for war crimes, and strongly indicts Obama/Holder for refusal to investigate and prosecute. And he indicts Cheney for chutzpah in thumbing his nose at law and convention.
    http://jonathanturley.org/2010/02/15/cheney-i-was-a-big-supporter-of-waterboarding/

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  3. Neo Controll says:

    “Dick Cheney is not paranoid. They really are out to get him. His conscience is clear and he has decided that the best defense is a good offense.”
    Nadine, you are a very sick puppy. Very sick puppy. I’d say we need a vote.
    Anyone, who’s not some wet behind the ears weathervane, but Kotz, want to weigh in?

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  4. nadine says:

    questions, consider the political shitstorm that was kicked off by the Bush administration instituting the interrogation and military tribunal systems for combatants taken off the field in Afghanistan. Now imagine how much greater it would have been if they had tried to start with a British citizen taken off an airliner. I think somebody calculated that they couldn’t possibly start with this case, esp. as the tribunal system was not even set up.
    Dick Cheney is not paranoid. They really are out to get him. His conscience is clear and he has decided that the best defense is a good offense.

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  5. sdemetri says:

    Ali Soufan’s editorial in the NYTimes the other day favored criminal
    courts over the military commissions. As lead FBI investigator in
    the Cole investigation and involvement in prosecutions in both
    settings, he favors the former. Of three convictions in the military
    commissions, two of the folks are free in their countries. The
    right’s hyperventilating on this issue is strange.
    Cheney advocates torture, and his complicity with the system that
    tortured should have him in a cell. Were it not for Chief of Staff
    Emanuel, according to Jane Mayer’s New Yorker profile of Holder,
    Cheney might be in danger of that.

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  6. questions says:

    Well, thanks! For all the grief I get around here it’s nice to get nice occasionally. Thanks! And since I’m also a youngest sib. it’s nice to be the “older” one even if it’s just pretend, anonymous, and not even true! And even more, since you’re such a basically decent person around here, and well-thought of, I can bask in something like the reflected decency which seems to evade me routinely around here! So for the nth and severalth time, thanks!

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  7. David says:

    For the severalth time, Thank you, questions. I wind up not having to post a comment, because you have it covered. It’s a bit like when I was a little kid. My older brother would already have said everything that needed saying, so I just stayed quiet and smiled (at least that’s what I’m told). Apparently it went so well for me that I didn’t start with words. I waited until late in the game and started with complete sentences.
    I do think a) and b) are both correct as far as what drives Dick Cheney, the man whose office outed a CIA agent and has so far gotten away with it, having thrown Scooter Libby under the bus. If I remember correctly, Cheney is outraged that W did not pardon Loose Lips Libby.

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  8. questions says:

    Nadine, here’s a bit of the transcript from Cheney on whatever Sunday program you were watching….
    ” KARL: OK. So — so was it a mistake when your administration took on the Richard Reid case? This is very similar. This was somebody that was trying to blow up an airliner with a shoe bomb, and he was within five minutes of getting taken off that plane read his Miranda rights, four times, in fact, in 48 hours, and tried through the civilian system. Was that a mistake?
    CHENEY: Well, first of all, I believe he was not tried. He pled guilty. They never did end up having a trial. Secondly, when this came up, as I recall, it was December of ’01, just a couple of months after 9/11. We were not yet operational with the military commissions. We hadn’t had all the Supreme Court decisions handed down about what we could and couldn’t do with the commissions.
    KARL: But you still had an option to put him into military custody.
    CHENEY: Well, we could have put him into military custody. I don’t– I don’t question that. The point is, in this particular case, all of
    that was never worked out, primarily because he pled guilty.”
    (transcript copy/pasted from C and L)
    Note the “we could have put him into military custody” part. They didn’t do that. So there really is a little something weird here.
    The biggest problem with trusting anything Cheney wants is that he’s motivated either by the deepest paranoia possible, or the most fearful sense of self-preservation as he does not want his actions investigated. In neither case would I want this guy running things.
    What happens, in Cheney-land, if you’re, say, an ice cream truck driver or, I dunno, Maher Arar? The paranoia thing is a problem and Cheney shmears it like cream cheese over everything. Really not the way to run a country.

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  9. bob h says:

    I found it puzzling that Cheney would choose a time for this political onslaught when the United States is undertaking a major offensive against the Taliban in Helmand Province, which would seem to me to be a major indicator of Obama’s seriousness about terrorism. That he would choose a time when news of the killing of the Mehsuds by Predators is so fresh.
    The Marines in Helmand and those around the Mehsuds still alive would agree that Obama is pretty damn serious.
    What is more important- facts on the ground in Pakistan and Afghanistan, or the optics of criminal prosecutions at home?

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  10. nadine says:

    But strangely, Dick Cheney, Mr. Unpopularity Personified, always swings public opinion in his direction every time one of these confrontations occurs…or did Obama & Biden convince the public that it was a swell idea to try KSM in a civilian court in lower Manhattan? The latest Pew poll gives Republicans a 17 point advantage in answer to the question “Which party can do a better job on the issue of terrorist defenses?”
    You seriously think it was Cheney who declined to debate Joe Biden on the issue? Too funny.

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  11. Mr.Murder says:

    “These are the inconvenient facts and Joe Biden is out there talking real fast in a losing effort to distract the public from them. In the court of public opinion, Dick Cheney has won every round so far.”
    -The lowest rated officeholder in opinion polling history. The public really favors what he says over Biden? Guess that’s why he wasn’t man enough to go toe to toe with Joe? Maybe Cheney had better things to do….

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  12. nadine says:

    Obama said 190, now Biden says 300 (they really should realize that the way they keep changing these numbers around does not help their credibility with the public). The actual number of Islamic terrorists, as opposed to terror group-related money-raising or immigration fraud, is fewer than a dozen according to Politifact.com http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/12/barack-obama/obama-claims-bush-administration-got-190-terrorism/
    Even that number has to do with the fact that the military tribunal system wasn’t past its legal hurdles until 2008.

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  13. PissedOffAmerican says:

    And the other two hundred and something people that were tried in civilian courts, for terrorism related crimes, during Bush’s reign? Were they too tried before the institution of the military tribunal system???
    You’re full of shit, Nadine. You are trying to use Fox News talking points on an audience that stopped buying that shit a long time ago. Don’t you realize by now that the majority of the people posting here know you are a shameless liar? Don’t you have any pride or self respect?
    If you don’t have any faith in the civilian system of justice, as laid out in the Constitution, why don’t you shag your ass out of our country? Now.

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  14. nadine says:

    Maw, it took about six years of legal wrangling to set up the military tribunal system in the event. As far as I know there was no precedent in place in 2001 that would have supported indefinite detention of a British citizen not taken from Afghanistan, but from an airliner. You have to look at the state of the law at the time.
    Biden is trying to pretend that none of the wrangling ever took place and everything is the same now as in 2001. Biden is trying to play a weak hand; the Obama administration badly wrong-footed itself by letting that fool Holder make decisions without even consulting the intelligence community. Now they have to do damage control.

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  15. Maw of America says:

    Nadine – Why not simply hold Reid until the tribunal system was set up? It didn’t take that long and there was certainly precedent for holding him indefinitely. Why the rush to convict him through the criminal justice system?

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  16. nadine says:

    John Waring, it’s going to be hard for Biden to win back the narrative when he has so few facts on his side. It takes some nerve to ignore the entire development of the military tribunal system from 2001 to 2008, which if I recall involved two major Supreme Court rulings and some new laws to satisfy them, and SIMULTANEOUSLY accuse the Dick Cheney of re-writing history.
    Can I say it slowly: Richard Reid was tried as a civilian because his case was in 2001 and the military tribunal system was not in place yet. This was not true in December 2009 when the Undie Bomber fell into our hands. He could have gone into the military tribunal system. It was Eric Holder’s choice that he did not.
    The Bush administration also developed a methodology for interrogating terrorists. The Obama administration didn’t like it, so they abolished it – and replaced it with nothing, nada, zip. A new interrogation program that hadn’t even started yet. So there was nobody qualified to interrogate the Undie Bomber last Christmas.
    It’s also why we’ve stopped trying to capture al Qaeda terrorists and just are trying to shoot them instead. But dead men provide no information. Biden’s protestations that al Qaeda is incapacitated may be true, or may be very wide of the mark. We aren’t gathering the information to tell.
    These are the inconvenient facts and Joe Biden is out there talking real fast in a losing effort to distract the public from them. In the court of public opinion, Dick Cheney has won every round so far.

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  17. John Waring says:

    Finally some push-back from the Administration. Joe Biden, please keep it up.
    Now if the administration would only do the same against those who say health care reform is akin to socialism.
    Mr. Vice President, please win back the narrative.

    Reply

  18. susan says:

    Each of these men is trying to score political points. They are both frauds and belong in jail for war crimes.

    Reply

  19. Mr.Murder says:

    Cheney’s junket tour du jour continues unabated.
    Gregory didn’t mind repeating the talking points.
    The chatnick is made of Russert material.

    Reply

  20. ... says:

    cheney represents a part of the usa that is unfortunately very real…. there are many cheney types expressing similar views thru the media, and in spite of how the man is so discredited by many, there is still a large number of folks that would probably vote for him… change in the usa is gonna be slow………. if biden or frum had come out and said something like this 7 or 8 years ago it would have been better timing… always best to keep ones expectations really low when it comes to most public figures, whether it be the presidency or someone pulling strings close by…

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  21. JohnH says:

    It must be a slow Sunday…

    Reply

  22. DonS says:

    “Dick Cheney is a fine fellow” (Biden)
    That’s if your standard is ghouls.

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  23. Mr.Murder says:

    By the way, the republican record for job creation through tax cuts shows a decade of loss. The numbers don’t lie, the Bush legacy and permanent tax cuts for billionaires have left America void of the ability to even keep its own currency solvent.
    Someone needs to challenge these chatter monkeys when they mouth assumptions on policy that are not backed by facts or actionable information.
    Meat Depressed is basically a platform to launch campaigns from. Harold Ford Jr. is certainly welcome back to any discussion. Had the man’s relatives not had such negative traction he would probably be where Pres.Obama is at this time.

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  24. Mr.Murder says:

    *had already issued warnings*

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  25. Mr.Murder says:

    The right of persons in search and seizure is a constitutional benchmark. It doesn’t say the right of citizens, or the right of Americans. Persons have rights granted, explicit rights, vague only in the sense of who would not be allowed. “Persons” seems to imply a lot of people, all of them.
    The grant of rights is explicit. This helped the nation immediately establish diplomatic standing.
    Perhaps bobo needs to be reminded that on Sept.10th the Attorney General of the United States had already issues warnings to staffers not to fly on airlines. It seems like a Sept.10th voodoo detainee being denied Miranda rights would not have been a problem in keeping people like John “charter flight” Ashcroft safe. See also Condi Rice warning Willie Brown and staff not to fly on or near that time.
    Someone needs to remind these clowns that law and order procedure was not what threatened America, and it was not what enabled successful terrorist attacks.

    Reply

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