Is Turkey Still America’s Best Ally in the Middle East?

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obama.erdogan.jpg
(Photo Credit: White House Photostream)
Joshua Walker has a good piece at Foreign Policy that takes a broad view of U.S.-Turkey relations and arrives at largely positive conclusions about the long-term prospects for the alliance.
Walker is part of a team of scholars at the German Marshall Fund‘s Transatlantic Academy who recently wrote “Getting To Zero: Turkey, Its Neighbors, And The West,” a comprehensive examination of Turkey’s rapidly expanding role in regional and global politics. (The title alludes to Turkey’s so-called “Zero Problems with Neighbors” foreign policy.)
Walker’s article can be interpreted as a response to the flurry of Beltway criticism aimed at Turkey in recent weeks given its opposition to the United States’ push for sanctions against Iran and its blusterous response to the Flotilla incident.
Walker concludes that

Turkish policies can complement the United States’ if framed within a broader and longer-term perspective of the transatlantic alliance that shares common goals and values even if the short-term means differ. What is needed now is not an emotional and reactional appraisal of Turkish rhetoric but one that recognizes that contributions to American and European goals may come in a new, and perhaps unfamiliar, guise that requires more, not less engagement.
Encouraging Ankara’s newfound assertiveness and diplomatic initiatives, rather than demonizing it for tactical differences, will ensure that Turkey remains a constructive transatlantic partner and committed U.S. ally in the long run. The fact is that Turkey is a rising power on the international scene as a G-20 founding member, with a European seat on the UN Security Council, and head of the Organization of Islamic Conference in one of the most critical geographies in the world. Turkey has arrived and is not going anywhere, regardless of Washington’s rhetoric about “Who lost Turkey?” Or “Where is Turkey going?” Therefore, despite all of its bluster and rhetoric, Turkey remains America’s most crucial ally in region.

I agree with Walker’s analysis and would add an additional point.
Of the two crises, Turkey’s behavior on the Iran issue has drawn the ire of official Washington more than its response to the Flotilla incident. This is somewhat ironic given that Turkey’s diplomatic engagement with Tehran was supported by Washington. The United States has more to gain from Turkey if it is trusted in Tehran and can serve as an interlocutor and the disagreements between Ankara and Washington on Iran’s nuclear program relate to means rather than ends.
On the other hand, no matter what one thinks of Israel’s blockade of Gaza, Turkey’s over-the-top response to the Flotilla incident is indicative of a worrying anti-Israel populism that is unhealthy for Turkey and may permanently jeopardize Ankara’s capacity to serve as a mediator between Israel and its enemies with real strategic consequences for both Turkey and the United States.
— Ben Katcher

Comments

179 comments on “Is Turkey Still America’s Best Ally in the Middle East?

  1. Marcus says:

    Web; numbers 1 to 3 are nadines ,I don`t know if she will bother herself with you any longer,but Number 4 was my statement,so I`m going to address it;
    I suggest you time-travel yourself back to Canaan circa 1400 BCE. (bring some small gifts to impress)
    Find an Amorite or some other Iron Age dude,convince him to let you take a sample of his DNA then,if you can make it back to TWN ,you let us know.

    Reply

  2. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    nadine,
    You are a bigoted moron, as shown by your admitted membership at a site called “sandmonkey.org” None of your justifications for your site actually justifies visiting a site with a racial slur as its name.
    Let’s try a novel concept for you called “proof.” Provide proof that the following statements you made are true:
    (1) “sandmonkeys.org is the blog of a young and snarky Egyptian”
    (2) “No Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did.”
    (3) “The Turkish population has been treated to diet of Nazi level anti-Semitic propaganda”
    (4) “The descendents of the vanquished tribes of Canaan are modern day jews,more so than anyone else alive”
    I have a theory that goes: “nadine just makes things up.” Please prove me wrong.

    Reply

  3. David says:

    Nah, Marcus. If he did, surely you two would have passed on the street by now.

    Reply

  4. Marcus says:

    Obama must also hail from planet goofy; he trusts BP to do their own investigation , but he doesn`t trust israel to do their own on the flotilla incident ?
    talk about not having Americas priorities straight. unbelievable !
    Obama probably spends more time worrying about jerusalem zoning bylaws than the oil spill, a genuine goofball.

    Reply

  5. nadine says:

    WEB, you really a supercilious moron. As I mentioned before on TWN to Paul Norheim (who had the grace to apologize), sandmonkeys.org is the blog of a young and snarky Egyptian, who chose the name for himself because, to put it mildly, he’s less than thrilled with the way Mubarak has been running Egypt.
    MarkL, I have read many books about the history of the Levant. From Time Immemorial does not really make a strong argument for its numbers (19th century numbers are always problematic because Ottoman censuses were wildly unreliable), but the general story it presents, of a mismanaged and underpopulated region becoming repopulated by BOTH Arabs and Jews due to the economic activity generated by the First and Second Aliyas (1880 – 1920s) is corroborated by many other contemporary sources.
    For example, the British, in their quest to map the globe, sent a survey team to Palestine in the 1860s which produced a very detailed (26 page) map published in 1878. They carefully noted the size of all settlements, down to houses. The settled area of Jerusalem was 1000 meters square. The settled area of Haifa with 190 by 440 meters. http://www.zeevgalili.com/english/?p=57 Tiny, in other words. This agrees with what Mark Twain wrote in The Innocents Abroad when he visited Jerusalem in 1867 and wrote that it was the size of an American village of 4,000 and he could walk around its walls in an hour.
    “Palestinians” did not really begin to think of themselves as Palestinians under they came under one government, which was Israel’s in 1967. Israel also allowed them to found institutions of higher learning, which the Jordanians had forbidden. Before 1967 they were Arabs from Palestine. After 1967 they became “Palestinians”.
    Since 1967 the Palestnians have produced reams of ersatz history claiming that there were Palestinians in 9000 BC, the Philistines were Palestinian, there was never a Jewish country in Palestine, the Jews have nothing to do with Palestine, the Jews are Europeans, and so on. It’s a lot of hooey, but it sells to those who are completely ignorant of both the Bible and history, which unfortunately is most people these days.
    WEB, suppose you try to find some text that was written IN 1948 that refers to the Arabs as “Palestinians”? You won’t find it. Back then, Jewish institutions used the name, e.g. today’s Jerusalem Post was the Palestine Post.

    Reply

  6. Marcus says:

    WEB ‘you said the arabs are not called Canaanites anymore..FYI ( and we all know now that you really need some) Caanan was a geographical area that included Israel,Gaza,parts of syria.lebanon and jordan. There were dozens of tribes none of them were called canaanites.
    Arabs are from ARABia, DUH. I`ve never heard anyone not even israeli arabs claim to be canaanite,philistine, that i`ve heard and believe might be true,especially those HAMAS dudes.
    When Moses and Joshua (you ever hear of those two ?…. their pretty famous )conquered Canaan,they pretty much killed everyone , the people left alive were pretty much all incorporated into the kingdom of Israel.
    so WEB try to concentrate, here is when we connect the dots…….the descendents of the vanquished tribes of Canaan are modern day jews,more so than anyone else alive.
    Yet, you have the nerve to question the historical connection jews have with Israel.
    your like from planet goofy.

    Reply

  7. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    nadine appears to be a daily visitor to a site called “sandmonkeys.org” I don’t consider that any different than going to a website called “dirtyjews.org”
    nadine will say that this is justified because according to him (although it’s not stated in the “about me” section, nor first blog post) nadine claims “sand monkey” is an Arab. I don’t believe that and even if he were, why would anyone hang out at a site where a racial slur is the site name? One doesn’t, unless one gets a chuckle every time they look at the site name.
    I think the most disturbing thing about nadine’s posting style is her tendency to make baseless claims and then ignore requests for proof.
    As for Marcus, I don’t know how ignorant he is, but he has strong trolling qualities. While nadine does play dirty, at least he wears a button down shirt. Marcus is a bit more like an unwashed bum who wants money. I just give him the same copy-paste message to keep him at bay.

    Reply

  8. MarkL says:

    W.E.B.
    Yes, “Jordan is the Palestinian State” is the Peters/Zionist/Nadine mantra.
    She has obviously read the book.
    Marcus doesn’t read books, but if he did, FTI would be at the top of his list.

    Reply

  9. MarkL says:

    W.E.B.
    Yes, “Jordan is the Palestinian State” is the Peters/Zionist/Nadine mantra.
    She has obviously read the book.
    Marcus doesn’t read books, but if he did, FTI would be at the top of his list.

    Reply

  10. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ Mark
    Yeah, judging from the reviews of Time Immemorial, it sounds right up nadine’s alley. 😉
    “This is a startling and disturbing book. It is startling because, despite the author’s professed ignorance of the historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict and lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history (pp. 221, 335) coupled with her limitation to sources largely in English (absolutely no Arab sources are used), she engages in the rewriting of history on the basis of little evidence. …The undocumented numbers in her book in no way allow for the wild and exaggerated assertions that she makes or for her conclusion. This book is disturbing because it seems to have been written for purely polemical and political reasons: to prove that Jordan is the Palestinian state.”

    Reply

  11. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Yes there were PEOPLE in the Levant in 9000 BC. Heck, there were people in the Levant in 100,000 BC. Next you’ll be telling me that the 100,000 year old Neanderthal whose remains have been found in Israel were actually Arabs! There is NO evidence that says that the people of 11,000 years ago were Arabs, neither by DNA nor culture. Nor were they Jews, who lived in the area for nearly 2000 years before the Arabs first showed up.”
    – nadine
    The quote doesn’t say that there were “people in the Levant in 9000 BC”, ignoramus. It says that “significant cultures were independently developed in northern Syria and in Palestine, especially at Jericho after 9000 B.C.E.”
    This does not mean that these ancient cultures were the Palestinian Arabs. Although I am not at all certain as to pre-history of the area, I will say that my earlier comment was not totally accurate and needs to be amended to say that the Palestinian Arabs entered the area in 2000 BC. I am not certain of that at all as I got the information from a website which I cannot be entirely certain of its accuracy (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm) although I trust it far more than what you say as you are a liar and a bigot (the years you spent at sandmonkeys.org only scratches the surface of your bigotry).
    Also, you are being dishonest with the semantics games (which you often play). You won’t accept calling the Palestinians Palestinians. You say Jews are the Palestinians. I use the term Palestinian Arabs to make the distinction clear to you. You then make a play on the word Arab so that you can say that the Palestinians arrived in 750 AD and bypass the Palestinians (earlier called Canaanites) were there for thousands of years prior to that.
    Since you need to resort to this tactic, I will make a disclaimer: when I say “Palestinians” I mean the Palestinians and not any Jews you claim (and refuse to provide proof for) who called themselves Palestinians.
    ————————–
    “Marcus, I’m strongly beginning to think that WEB doesn’t actually know any history, ancient or modern. He can buy stories about 9000 BC “Arabs” because he doesn’t know about the Kingdom of David, the existence of Judea or the presence of Jews in Palestine and the Levant during any period of time.”
    – nadine
    I have a general knowledge of Middle Eastern history. You don’t even have that. You have names that you’ve heard of: Kingdom of David, Judea, Israel, Arabs, you have your bigotry and your willingness to lie.
    I Lies
    “Jordan ethnically cleared the land they took. There wasn’t a single Jew left on the West Bank after 1948.” – nadine
    Compare that with a quote from a pro-Israeli website: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_jordan_annex.php
    “The Jordanian “occupation” of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem.”
    “Abusive of the rights of Jews.” No mention of “ethnically cleared.”
    It is true that Jordan desecrated Jewish synagogues and structures but nadine presents no evidence that there were any Jews even residing in the West Bank at the time TO clear. Israeli colonies were concentrated, if not exclusively concentrated in the modern-day area of Israel.
    II Ignorant bigotry, referring to the Prime Minister of Turkey Erdogan:
    “He may steal the next election like his buddy Ahmedinejad did (Erdogan supported A’jad all the way).” – nadine
    III Unsubstantiated claims/lies
    (1)
    Nadine: “Erdogan has had a hand in shaping it — the Turkish population has been treated to diet of Nazi level anti-Semitic propaganda”
    WEB: “As for the “Nazi level propaganda”, I regard that as baseless a claim as your earlier claim that Erdogan may rig the 2011 vote because Ahmadinejad did something similar in Iran. Please do prove me wrong.”
    Nadine: (no response)
    (2)
    Nadine: “No Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did.”
    WEB: “Prove this statement: ‘no Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did’ (2nd request)”
    Nadine: (no response)
    Nadine, you are ignorant of the Middle East, you hate Muslims and you lie.

    Reply

  12. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Marcus,
    As I mentioned to you already, you have the maturity of a child and your questions and comments are not worth responding to (see Marcus’ comments on the “Hashemite Assdom” and Marcus’ posting under multiple usernames: http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/06/is_turkey_still/index.php#comment-163106). I suspect that you are more fascist than your friend and that you would easily be in favor of de-humanizing different ethnicities and promoting mass killings or ethnic cleansing. You are a poor man’s Joseph Goebbels.
    WEB

    Reply

  13. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Test

    Reply

  14. MarkL says:

    WEB Dubois,
    I think you’ll find that From Time Immemorial is the only source on Palestinian history which Nadine will accept.

    Reply

  15. nadine says:

    “”Archaeologists are now discovering that significant cultures were independently developed in northern Syria and in Palestine, especially at Jericho after 9000 B.C.E.”
    Yes there were PEOPLE in the Levant in 9000 BC. Heck, there were people in the Levant in 100,000 BC. Next you’ll be telling me that the 100,000 year old Neanderthal whose remains have been found in Israel were actually Arabs! There is NO evidence that says that the people of 11,000 years ago were Arabs, neither by DNA nor culture. Nor were they Jews, who lived in the area for nearly 2000 years before the Arabs first showed up.
    Claiming 9000 year old remains as “Arabs” is like pointing to 9000 year old bones in the USA and claiming that they belonged to American citizens.
    Marcus, I’m strongly beginning to think that WEB doesn’t actually know any history, ancient or modern. He can buy stories about 9000 BC “Arabs” because he doesn’t know about the Kingdom of David, the existence of Judea or the presence of Jews in Palestine and the Levant during any period of time.

    Reply

  16. Marcus says:

    WEB; since your not responding to my points , I`m going to assume that you are simply from the Helen Thomas glee club. I never thought she should have lost her job,especially since she apologized and retracted her flippant remarks, you on the otherhand,refuse even to rationalize your hatred for the jewish state. Now THAT`S COWARDLY.
    BTW; There are a few Israel-bashers here but their greivances are specific, mostly with the west bank settlements or with IDF tactics or inordinate jewish influence on Crongress.
    You deary have the dubious distinction of being the most noxious anti-semite on the blog by saying that no jewish state of any sort has legitimacy..your right up-there with Achmedennajad
    CONGRADULATIONS !

    Reply

  17. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Marcus,
    As I mentioned to you already, you have the maturity of a child and your questions and comments are not worth responding to (see Marcus’ comments on the “Hashemite Assdom” and Marcus’ posting under other posters usernames in the “Is Turkey Still America’s Best Ally in the Middle East” thread, http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/06/is_turkey_still/#comments). I suspect that you are more fascist than your friend and that you would easily be in favor of de-humanizing different ethnicities and promoting mass killings or ethnic cleansing. You are a poor man’s Joseph Goebbels.
    WEB

    Reply

  18. WEB says:

    WEB; Radical Islamic types claim that there never was a jewish temple or Kingdom of Israel–that it never existed and is just a jewish conspiracy,is this your position ?
    They claim MOSES and Christ were both Moslems,is this what you believe as well.?
    I`m not trying to ridicule you,I simply would like to know why you believe (so stridently) that jews have no legitimate claim over any part of Israel ?

    Reply

  19. Marcus says:

    If you refuse to offer any reason (moral,legal,historical or otherwise, why JEWS HAVE NO RIGHT TO ANY PART OF ISRAEL ( contrary to the opinion of a vast majority of the worlds people and institutions) I am left with the idea that you are very simply just another lousy bigot.

    Reply

  20. Marcus says:

    If you refuse to offer any reason (moral,legal,historical or otherwise, why JEWS HAVE NO RIGHT TO ANY PART OF ISRAEL ( contrary to the opinion of a vast majority of the worlds people and institutions) I am left with the idea that you are very simply just another lousy bigot.

    Reply

  21. Marcus says:

    WEB; I am simply curious as to why you believe jews (anykind of jew including arab jews) have no right whatsoever to claim any part of their ancient homeland ?
    You have stated this opinion without offering any justification for it ?
    either you don`t believe that ancient Israel ever existed,or you belive that modern jews are not jewish enough to lay any claim on the ancient jewish homeland, which is it ?
    WHY WON~T YOU ANWSER , so I can stop asking the same thing over and over. Make your position clear instead of just insulting me.
    Are you hiding something ?

    Reply

  22. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Marcus,
    As I mentioned to you already, you have the maturity of a child and your questions and comments are not worth responding to (see Marcus’ comments on the “Hashemite Assdom”). I suspect that you are more fascist than your friend and that you would easily be in favor of de-humanizing different ethnicities and promoting mass killings or ethnic cleansing. You are a poor man’s Joseph Goebbels.
    WEB

    Reply

  23. Marcus says:

    Web; real simple questions,do you believe that :
    1) Jews have ever existed in a soveirgn nation ?
    2) Jews exist today as a distinct ethnic group ?
    or,as you seem to be arguing;
    3) that jews are ghosts and are the only human beings without a DNA link to their ancestors ?
    or;
    4) Jews are not human ?

    Reply

  24. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “WEB, you really a pretentious twit.”
    – nadine
    You’re a bigoted moron.
    ———–
    “Jordan’s removal of Jews from the West Bank in 1948 and the Mufti’s ardent support of Nazism (he spent WWII in Berlin, raising a couple of divisions of Bosnian Muslims for the Waffen SS) are a matter of historical record.”
    – nadine
    I didn’t ask you about Huseini. The fact that you had to conflate Huseini with the alleged “Jordan’s removal of Jews from the West Bank” indicates that you are lying.
    ————————-
    “HAHAHAHAHAHA. You will believe any rubbish anyone writes on electronicintifada, won’t you?”
    – nadine
    I prefer credible sources actually. Source: The Middle East a History. Sixth Edition. By William Ochsenwald and Sydney Nettelton Fisher. Copyright 2004, page 9.
    “Archaeologists are now discovering that significant cultures were independently developed in northern Syria and in Palestine, especially at Jericho after 9000 B.C.E.”
    Obviously, you are too busy telling lies and braying like an ass to be bothered to read facts.
    ——————-
    “What language did these 9000 BC “Arabs” speak? What gods did they worship? What was their culture?”
    – nadine
    You first. You first stop being a coward and provide proof of your claim that “Jordan ethnically cleared the land they took.” You can’t because it’s not true and you don’t have the stones to admit it. The Palestinians and or the Jordanians desecrated many Jewish buildings and structures, but that doesn’t mean they forced out the Jews who lived in the West Bank.
    Next, prove this statement: “no Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did” (2nd request).
    ———————-
    “The Arabs arrived with the Arab conquest in the 7th century CE, and took over a Byzantine province inhabited by Greeks and Jews. It is from these people of the Byzantine Empire that most of the Arabs of the Levant descend today.”
    – nadine
    The people who we refer to as Palestinian Arabs have inhabited Palestine since 9000 BC. They have been there for thousands of years and their names have changed. Now they are generally just called Arabs. People don’t call them “Canaanites” and more ancient tribal names anymore.

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  25. nadine says:

    WEB, you really a pretentious twit. Next you’ll be demanding that I prove WWII happened and calling me a coward for failing to furnish proof. Go read a damn history book. Jordan’s removal of Jews from the West Bank in 1948 and the Mufti’s ardent support of Nazism (he spent WWII in Berlin, raising a couple of divisions of Bosnian Muslims for the Waffen SS) are a matter of historical record.
    Here’s a nice picture of the Mufti with his buddy Adolf: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html
    “There has been no Arab nation of Palestine, but the Arab people of Palestine have existed there since before 9000 BC. The name of a state is less important than that. ”
    HAHAHAHAHAHA. You will believe any rubbish anyone writes on electronicintifada, won’t you? What language did these 9000 BC “Arabs” speak? What gods did they worship? What was their culture?
    The Arabs arrived with the Arab conquest in the 7th century CE, and took over a Byzantine province inhabited by Greeks and Jews. It is from these people of the Byzantine Empire that most of the Arabs of the Levant descend today.

    Reply

  26. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    nadine,
    I asked you for proof of your comment that Jordan would have removed all the Jews in the West Bank if they had the opportunity. The Jordanians desecrated many Jewish buildings, but where is the proof that they would have removed every Jew from the West Bank? Please stop being a coward and provide this if you can.
    ———————
    “International cities have never worked, and the chances for it to work in Jerusalem failed in 1948 when the Arabs rejected the partition plan.”
    – nadine
    You are most likely making this up, as you often do. By all means, provide proof that “international cities have never worked.”
    ————————-
    “No, Jews didn’t have access to any site the Muslims claimed. For instance, Muslims were allowed into the Cave of the Patriarches, Jews had to stand outside on the steps. Conditions for Jews were so degrading under the Ottomans that you are essentially praising a Jim Crow system with Jews as niggers.”
    – nadine
    You lie once again. I never praised the Ottomans. Your throwing around the word “niggers” again shows your bigotry. Furthermore, you distort the Ottoman’s Empire’s relations with Jews which were excellent compared to the rest of the world.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/turkeys_prime_minister_leads_h.html
    “The Ottomans welcomed Jews expelled from Spain in 1492, and for most of the succeeding five centuries, Jews have fared better in Turkey than in the heart of Europe. I have heard Erdogan call Jews “part of the fabric of Turkish society.” Populist anti-Semitism was rare in Turkey. Today, “its seeds are being spread by the political leadership,” according to Soner Cagaptay, prominent Turkish-American scholar.”
    ———————
    “Furthermore, let us unpack that claim that “Israel was carved out of Palestinian lands”. Israel was actually carved out of the Mandate of Palestine, which was a British colony. In this British colony lived two kinds of people: the Palestinians, aka the Zionists or the Jews, who wanted to make Palestine into a country, and the Arabs, both Muslim and Christian. No Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did. So when you say “Palestinian lands” you’re not saying what you think you are saying.”
    – nadine
    Israel was carved out of Palestinian lands that the British had control of. Provide proof of your claim that “no Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did” unless you are again too much of a coward to do so.
    ——————-
    “This “Palestinian lands” is a locution thought up by the BBC to imply that there had previously been an Arab country of Palestine, but there never was. Not a country, not a province, not even a regional name until the Brits showed up in 1800. Until then “Palestine” was the British name for the place, not the Ottoman or Arab name. The Ottomans maps showed Palestine as part of three larger provinces: The Vilayet of Beirut, the Vilayet of Damascus, and the Independent Sanjak of Jerusalem. Never in history has there been an Arab country of Palestine.
    But in 1948 there were Arabs in Palestine, at least half of whom had recently come to Palestine to get good jobs. That’s one reason so many evacuated/ran at the prospect of war: they were just as attached to Beirut or Cairo as any place inside Palestine.”
    – nadine
    “The Palestine lands” is not a locution, nore was it thought up by the BBC. The people on the lands are Palestinian. Their lands are Palestinian lands. No one has a copyright on the English language.
    There has been no Arab nation of Palestine, but the Arab people of Palestine have existed there since before 9000 BC. The name of a state is less important than that.
    By the close of WWI, there were 620,000 Muslims in Palestine, 70,000 Christians and 60,000 Jews, so Muslims still outnumbered Jews 10:1 in Palestine.
    ———————
    “No, the Palestinian definition of “get everything” is simplicity itself: kill or drive off all the Jews and take possession of Palestine from the river to the sea. No compromises. It’s always been their goal; they only differ wrt tactics.”
    – nadine
    Well you have different definitions of getting everything. For any other group, “getting everything” might mean conquering the world or conquering someone else’s lands. For Palestinians, “getting everything” means getting rid of a nation that was founded in the middle of their lands. That’s not getting everything at all. That’s what most people take for granted.
    ——————
    “While Palestinians who lost land in 1948 certainly had rough luck, it was no rougher than the 14 million refugees of the partition of India at the same time, or the Jews of Europe and the Mideast who also lost their property and in Europe their lives. That the Jews of Palestine didn’t get exterminated is no credit to the Arabs, who were led by an ardent Nazi called Haj Amin al Husseini, but rather to the Brits, who defeated Rommel at el Alamein.”
    – nadine
    It was not rough luck that doomed the Palestinians, but the creation of a new state in the middle of their lands by foreigners with the intent purpose of keeping Palestinians out, which doomed them.
    That the Jews of Palestine didn’t get exterminated is no credit to the Zionists who created Israel either, as conquering Arab lands with the intent of setting up a Jewish state was sure to incite the population to kill or displace the colonists who come to populate the new state.
    Your comments about Husseini are propaganda with not much historical support. While Husseini was the mufti for Jerusalem for a few years, that does not mean at all that he would have automatically become a supreme political and military leader for the region, any more than one can assume that a random Catholic bishop of a large city will become a military dictator for an entire region.

    Reply

  27. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “WEB; you are really a pretentious ignoramus,but amusing. just a couple childish observations;”
    – Marcus
    Marcus, you are an ignorant child fit only to engage in hate-filled recriminations against your counterparts Sand and Carol.

    Reply

  28. Marcus says:

    WEB; you are really a pretentious ignoramus,but amusing. just a couple childish observations;
    “I`m sure that a democracy will make that majority of 80% palestinians happy” … are you joking? Don`t you know that the only democracy in the M/E is in Iraq and it had to be rammed down their throats and it`s still not taking ?
    “The Jewish migrants into Israel stole the Palestinians land at the beginning of the 20th century” WEB du Bois……… This statement is false/wrong on so many levels,the jews didn`t steal anything,they bought the land they settled on,at top dollar,fair and square. FYI the arabs respect these entirely legal land deeds as much as they respect democracy.
    BTW; have you ever heard of the kingdom of Israel that existed in the exact same place as modern Israel ( not in a slice of China as you snidely suggested) It was there,a soveriegn jewish Kingdom from 1600BC till 70CE (when they were INVOLUNTARILY forced out) and again the same patch of land has been inhabited by jews ever since(but under muslem rule). You seem not to be aware of this. You seem not to be aware of this.
    Do you think the jews arbitrarily picked this place because they thought the arabs would be easy pushovers?
    Tell me this, … If a Imperialistic/Colonialist Moslem army conquers a place,burns down a synagogue or a church and then builds a mosque on the smoldering ruins,does the land underneath it remain Moslem FOREVER ? Well does it ? I think not and that`s why it`s not their land,it was and now it`s not and no Lame General Assembly UN non-binding resolution is going to make it theirs.

    Reply

  29. nadine says:

    “I don’t see what good “taking it up with the Arabs” would do, as Jerusalem is controlled by Israel. I take it up with them, as they control the city. ”
    Take it up with whoever. International cities have never worked, and the chances for it to work in Jerusalem failed in 1948 when the Arabs rejected the partition plan.
    “That is only because Israel was carved out of Palestinian lands. Had it not, there would have been no barring of Jews from their synagogues, nor the destruction of those synagogues. None of this justifies the ethnic cleansing. The point is that the violent creation of Israel set off all this destruction.”
    No, Jews didn’t have access to any site the Muslims claimed. For instance, Muslims were allowed into the Cave of the Patriarches, Jews had to stand outside on the steps. Conditions for Jews were so degrading under the Ottomans that you are essentially praising a Jim Crow system with Jews as niggers.
    Furthermore, let us unpack that claim that “Israel was carved out of Palestinian lands”. Israel was actually carved out of the Mandate of Palestine, which was a British colony. In this British colony lived two kinds of people: the Palestinians, aka the Zionists or the Jews, who wanted to make Palestine into a country, and the Arabs, both Muslim and Christian. No Arab called himself a Palestinian in 1948, only Jews did. So when you say “Palestinian lands” you’re not saying what you think you are saying.
    This “Palestinian lands” is a locution thought up by the BBC to imply that there had previously been an Arab country of Palestine, but there never was. Not a country, not a province, not even a regional name until the Brits showed up in 1800. Until then “Palestine” was the British name for the place, not the Ottoman or Arab name. The Ottomans maps showed Palestine as part of three larger provinces: The Vilayet of Beirut, the Vilayet of Damascus, and the Independent Sanjak of Jerusalem. Never in history has there been an Arab country of Palestine.
    But in 1948 there were Arabs in Palestine, at least half of whom had recently come to Palestine to get good jobs. That’s one reason so many evacuated/ran at the prospect of war: they were just as attached to Beirut or Cairo as any place inside Palestine.
    “You have a strange definition of getting “everything” which apparently means being thrown off your land forever.”
    No, the Palestinian definition of “get everything” is simplicity itself: kill or drive off all the Jews and take possession of Palestine from the river to the sea. No compromises. It’s always been their goal; they only differ wrt tactics.
    While Palestinians who lost land in 1948 certainly had rough luck, it was no rougher than the 14 million refugees of the partition of India at the same time, or the Jews of Europe and the Mideast who also lost their property and in Europe their lives. That the Jews of Palestine didn’t get exterminated is no credit to the Arabs, who were led by an ardent Nazi called Haj Amin al Husseini, but rather to the Brits, who defeated Rommel at el Alamein.

    Reply

  30. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “WEB, Jerusalem was supposed to become an international city according to the UN Partition Plan of 1947. If you’ve got gripes over it not being implemented, I suggest you take them up with the Arabs, as it was the Arabs who rejected the plan; the Israelis accepted it.”
    – nadine
    I don’t see what good “taking it up with the Arabs” would do, as Jerusalem is controlled by Israel. I take it up with them, as they control the city.
    —————————
    “The only way that Jews, Christians and Muslims have all had access to their holy sites is under Israeli sovereignty. That’s just a plain fact.”
    – nadine
    That is only because Israel was carved out of Palestinian lands. Had it not, there would have been no barring of Jews from their synagogues, nor the destruction of those synagogues. None of this justifies the ethnic cleansing. The point is that the violent creation of Israel set off all this destruction.
    ————————
    “While I don’t second some of Marcus’s statements, I do agree that the two state solution won’t happen, because the Palestinians won’t agree to its minimum price: 1. Accept Israel 2. Declare an end to the conflict 3. Settle refugees in Palestine.”
    – nadine
    I disagree. This is off-topic, but I’ll bite anyway. There will be a two-state solution because it is in the interests of both parties to have one. Israel does not want the Palestinian people, just their land, so they could care less if they let them have a state once they are finished stealing as much land as possible. The plan is already set in motion with Israel’s border wall.
    ———————
    “The Pals have always convinced themselves that they can get everything for nothing if they just wait and kill a bunch of Jews once in a while, because however strong Israel looks, everybody knows Jews are weak and cowardly and will fall apart any day now. (You’d think 60 years would have taught them better, but it hasn’t. Every attempt to negotiate has fed this belief.) Obama has made them hope for this more than ever, so instead of helping negotiations, he has destroyed negotiations.”
    – nadine
    You have a strange definition of getting “everything” which apparently means being thrown off your land forever. Your Obama and negotiation comments make no sense. The logical conclusion of your comments is: (1) no more negotiation, (2) since no more negotiation all that is left is force, (3) finish the job and remove all Palestinians from the West Bank.
    More ethnic cleansing.
    ——————-
    “Are you familiar with Black September in 1970? That was the last time the PLO tried to overthrow the Hashemites in Jordan. King Hussein crushed them with about 5,000 dead and aid from Israel on the QT. Don’t think the Palestinians aren’t thinking about trying it again; for sure they are. Jordan is 80% Palestinian in population already, and has a strong Islamist faction in its parliament.”
    – nadine
    I’ll need to familiarize myself with Jordan’s government. If it’s just a monarchy, then there is no primae facie reason that should exist instead of a democracy. I’m sure that a democracy will make that majority of 80% Palestinians happy and who could object to democracy?

    Reply

  31. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “I compared Israeli behavior to Jordanian behavior in 1948, and I notice you run away from that comparison, as people always do. Jordan ethnically cleared the land they took. There wasn’t a single Jew left on the West Bank after 1948.”
    – nadine
    By the way, although cowardice may get the better of you again, please present your evidence for this.

    Reply

  32. nadine says:

    WEB, Jerusalem was supposed to become an international city according to the UN Partition Plan of 1947. If you’ve got gripes over it not being implemented, I suggest you take them up with the Arabs, as it was the Arabs who rejected the plan; the Israelis accepted it.
    Just for the record, when Jordan took the Old City in 1948, they did not make it an international city and not a single Jew was allowed in to pray at the holy places. Indeed, the Jordanians destroyed all Jewish holy places that were not also Muslim holy sites. They destroyed all the synagogues in the Jewish quarter, and used the gravestones on the Mount of Olives for paving stones.
    The only way that Jews, Christians and Muslims have all had access to their holy sites is under Israeli sovereignty. That’s just a plain fact.
    While I don’t second some of Marcus’s statements, I do agree that the two state solution won’t happen, because the Palestinians won’t agree to its minimum price: 1. Accept Israel 2. Declare an end to the conflict 3. Settle refugees in Palestine.
    The Pals have always convinced themselves that they can get everything for nothing if they just wait and kill a bunch of Jews once in a while, because however strong Israel looks, everybody knows Jews are weak and cowardly and will fall apart any day now. (You’d think 60 years would have taught them better, but it hasn’t. Every attempt to negotiate has fed this belief.) Obama has made them hope for this more than ever, so instead of helping negotiations, he has destroyed negotiations.
    Are you familiar with Black September in 1970? That was the last time the PLO tried to overthrow the Hashemites in Jordan. King Hussein crushed them with about 5,000 dead and aid from Israel on the QT. Don’t think the Palestinians aren’t thinking about trying it again; for sure they are. Jordan is 80% Palestinian in population already, and has a strong Islamist faction in its parliament.

    Reply

  33. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Web; you have called Nadine a bigot several times, I am fed up with you crying bigot,when somebody points out that it is the arabs who have waged a war of genocide against Israel for 60 years,refuse to accept the existence of the jewish state of Israel or worship and prosteylize a religon that urges it`s followers to subjugate and/or murder everyone else in the world.
    It wasn`t Nadine who made them that way.”
    – Marcus
    The fact that you are fed up with hearing a pro-Israeli bigot called a bigot is your problem and your bias. Not my problem.
    Even in your biased childish anger, you don’t even have your facts rights. I recently pointed out nadine’s bigotry for matters relating to the proposed similitude of Iran and Turkey. That’s between Turkey and Iran, not your BS war of genocide against Israel. You are wasting my time.
    ——————
    “You may be a live and let live type,how nice for you…try it with a scimitar at your throat.
    Try walking a mile in an israelis shoes before regurgitating tired old bits of slander at Nadine or Israel.”
    – Marcus
    The Jewish migrants into Israel stole the Palestinians land at the beginning of the 20th century. When you steal a lot of land, then you can expect to have sharp weapons at your throat. Don’t like having sharp weapons at your throat? Don’t steal.

    Reply

  34. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “If you did your homework you would know that the west bank and jerusalem have been Liberated NOT Occupied by the jews.
    At least TRY to get the basics right.”
    – Marcus
    Well your Israeli nationalism leads you to lay claim over anything Israel could claim. It wouldn’t surprise me if you claimed Egypt for Israel. Perhaps they can have a slice of China too. Pardon me, perhaps they can be “liberated” by Israel.
    In reality, according to international law, Jerusalem is an international city and Israel is breaking the law by its occupation of Jerusalem and annexation of East Jerusalem. You are the one who has failed to grasp the basics.
    ——————–
    “You said “future palestian state” LOL you must be kidding cause outside of Jordan, ANOTHER so-called Palestinian state, that aint never gonna happen.”
    – Marcus
    Your saying what will and will not pass followed by a “LOL” is a childish boast and nothing more.
    —————————–
    “Get with the programn, the arabs in refugee camps are finally getting fed up with the mistreatmeant by their muslim “brothers” and are headed for Jordan,count on it and this time Israel is not going to save the Hashemite assdom.”
    -Marcus
    “Hashemite Assdom.” You are a child. Go play with Sand and Carol.

    Reply

  35. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Gee, aren’t the Kurds Muslims? The Turks have never felt that any amount of “repression” of non-Turks had a thing to do with their national interests — until Erdogan. Ask yourself, what has made two countries that aren’t even Arab, Turkey and Iran, suddenly decide that the Palestinian cause is their own?
    This is Islamist ideology, pure and simple. Note that Erdogan doesn’t give a damn about the Palestinians as a whole, only his fellow Islamists in Hamas. He has never said a single nice thing about Fatah. As for domestic opinion, Erdogan has had a hand in shaping it — the Turkish population has been treated to diet of Nazi level anti-Semitic propaganda.”
    – nadine
    Still resorting to strawman debate tactics? Show me where I said the Kurds are not Muslim. You can’t because I never said they weren’t. Pretending I made comments I never made shows that your argument is weak. Nor did I say that Turkey has taken up the Palestinian cause as their own. Another distortion.
    As for Islamism, that is crap. Even the Europeans condemn Israel. Are they Islamists too? I think most of the world condemns Israel’s rape of the Arabs.
    As for the “Nazi level propaganda”, I regard that as baseless a claim as your earlier claim that Erdogan may rig the 2011 vote because Ahmadinejad did something similar in Iran. Please do prove me wrong.
    Also, the fact that Fatah was not mentioned to Erdogan does not mean that Erdogan has nothing nice to say about them. You continually make things up about Muslims.
    ———————
    “I compared Israeli behavior to Jordanian behavior in 1948, and I notice you run away from that comparison, as people always do. Jordan ethnically cleared the land they took. There wasn’t a single Jew left on the West Bank after 1948. (Ask yourself what would have happened to the Zionists if Jordan had won the war.)”
    – nadine
    Your comment here is a lie. I ran from nothing. You made a polemic comment and not a direct comment about Jordan’s conduct in 1948. So it is dishonest that because I focused on the many other topics brought up that I ran away from anything.
    ———-
    “Israel did not ethnically Israel or West Bank when they took them in 1948 or 1967. Since, as you point out, US aid to Israel didn’t begin until 1973, US influence wasn’t the deciding factor in 1948 or 1967. As you also point out, since the 60s Israel has had nukes – so how come they never used them, if their aggression was unrestrained?”
    – nadine
    ——————
    As I mentioned to you, Israel’s actions can be called restrained compared to the Mongol hordes and the Nazi’s. However, compared to 99% of the countries in the modern era, Israel is unrestrained, with its ridiculous blockades on fresh meat, concrete, ethnic cleansing, total flouting of the UN and international law, and bombing Lebanon.
    “The Palestinians aren’t being ethnically cleared. They are just staging a kind of passion play for their friends in the media. In this play, no landlord can evict his tenants and no city can clear off squatters from a vacant lot without a full-scale production worthy of Hollywood. Notice that every time this passion play is dutifully scribed as fact by some ignorant reporter, the numbers being discussed are tiny: 20 apartments here, 30 tenants there. This is pure spin, and you are falling for it.
    When somebody is really being ethnically cleared, his numbers drop to zero. They don’t triple. I gave you the numbers and you just ignore them. You admitted that you thought Erdogan was a moderate until you looked up his quotes. You are just as misinformed about the Palestinians.”
    – nadine
    The Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from the West Bank. I so wish that my post would be approved as I cite several credible sources that show this. Perhaps I will have to break the post up into even more parts to get it through.
    You are the one who is misinformed.
    By the way, Israel is not doing its ethnic cleansing with the speed of the Nazi’s or even the Serbians. They are moving at a much slower pace. That doesn’t change that it is ethnic cleansing.

    Reply

  36. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Just for the record, I recently attempted to create a post on Israel’s record in Jerusalem. It contained at least 4 links with quotes from each link. It is being held for approval. I tried breaking the post in half and it still is being held for approval.

    Reply

  37. Marcus says:

    Web; you have called Nadine a bigot several times, I am fed up with you crying bigot,when somebody points out that it is the arabs who have waged a war of genocide against Israel for 60 years,refuse to accept the existence of the jewish state of Israel or worship and prosteylize a religon that urges it`s followers to subjugate and/or murder everyone else in the world.
    It wasn`t Nadine who made them that way.
    You may be a live and let live type,how nice for you…try it with a scimitar at your throat.
    Try walking a mile in an israelis shoes before regurgitating tired old bits of slander at Nadine or Israel.

    Reply

  38. Marcus says:

    Web du bois;
    If you did your homework you would know that the west bank and jerusalem have been Liberated NOT Occupied by the jews.
    At least TRY to get the basics right.
    The arab population in the west bank has also tripled since 1967, that`s three times the opposite of ethnic cleansing ( for the math challenged readers)
    You said “future palestian state” LOL you must be kidding cause outside of Jordan, ANOTHER so-called Palestinian state, that aint never gonna happen.
    Get with the programn, the arabs in refugee camps are finally getting fed up with the mistreatmeant by their muslim “brothers” and are headed for Jordan,count on it and this time Israel is not going to save the Hashemite assdom.

    Reply

  39. nadine says:

    “I guess the Turks feel that the brutal repression of other Muslims was something that clashed with their interests.” (WEB)
    Gee, aren’t the Kurds Muslims? The Turks have never felt that any amount of “repression” of non-Turks had a thing to do with their national interests — until Erdogan. Ask yourself, what has made two countries that aren’t even Arab, Turkey and Iran, suddenly decide that the Palestinian cause is their own?
    This is Islamist ideology, pure and simple. Note that Erdogan doesn’t give a damn about the Palestinians as a whole, only his fellow Islamists in Hamas. He has never said a single nice thing about Fatah. As for domestic opinion, Erdogan has had a hand in shaping it — the Turkish population has been treated to diet of Nazi level anti-Semitic propaganda.
    “OK, Israel has practiced unrestrained aggression unless compared to the Mongol Hordes and the Nazis.”
    I compared Israeli behavior to Jordanian behavior in 1948, and I notice you run away from that comparison, as people always do. Jordan ethnically cleared the land they took. There wasn’t a single Jew left on the West Bank after 1948. (Ask yourself what would have happened to the Zionists if Jordan had won the war.) Israel did not ethnically Israel or West Bank when they took them in 1948 or 1967. Since, as you point out, US aid to Israel didn’t begin until 1973, US influence wasn’t the deciding factor in 1948 or 1967. As you also point out, since the 60s Israel has had nukes – so how come they never used them, if their aggression was unrestrained?
    The Palestinians aren’t being ethnically cleared. They are just staging a kind of passion play for their friends in the media. In this play, no landlord can evict his tenants and no city can clear off squatters from a vacant lot without a full-scale production worthy of Hollywood. Notice that every time this passion play is dutifully scribed as fact by some ignorant reporter, the numbers being discussed are tiny: 20 apartments here, 30 tenants there. This is pure spin, and you are falling for it.
    When somebody is really being ethnically cleared, his numbers drop to zero. They don’t triple. I gave you the numbers and you just ignore them. You admitted that you thought Erdogan was a moderate until you looked up his quotes. You are just as misinformed about the Palestinians.

    Reply

  40. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    I do not accept the simple theory that has been advanced by some that Erdogan is seeking alliances with Islamist countries primarily because he is an Islamist himself. My own philosophy on international relations is based on national interests (i.e. realism) and not based primarily on culture, so I am not disposed to accept that theory.
    I am working on an alternative explanation based on national interests.
    My theory is that Turkey is forging its own path because:
    (1) It’s economy has grown rapidly and it now can do that.
    (2) The West has made itself unpopular to Turkey by Israel’s rape of the Palestinians and the Lebanese with no restraint imposed on it by the US
    (3) The problems that Turkey has had with joining the EU
    (4) There is no harm to Turkey from being friends with Syria and having trade (especially natural resources) with Iran
    (5) Erdogan does not mind Iran developing a covert nuclear weapons program since Israel has one and he has a justifiably low opinion of Israel anyway
    Consider the economic benefits to Turkey from good relations with Iran:
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-17/erdogan-rebuffs-u-s-insists-turkey-isn-t-iran-ally-update2-.html
    Iran has contracted to send Turkey 10 billion cubic meters of natural gas a year, almost one-third of last year

    Reply

  41. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Oh, I want to qualify my 2nd to last comment with one thing. Israel did have nuclear weapons during the 1973 war, so they would have survived even had their armies been totally routed. However, it is still nice to have an army and not get it wiped out (thanks to the US giving them aircraft and tanks after they were destroyed by Egypt).

    Reply

  42. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “He may steal the next election like his buddy Ahmedinejad did (Erdogan supported A’jad all the way).”
    Your comment is bigoted against Muslims again. Turkey is a modern democratic country and there is little or no evidence of any vote rigging in the past done by Erdogan. Iran and Turkey are very different countries and you group them together as the same because they are Muslim. Very bigoted.
    ——————-
    “WEB, what does Israel’s behavior vis-a-vis the Palestinians have to do with Turkey, if not for Erdogan’s Islamist ideology?”
    A silly question, and one that I already answered.
    ——————-
    “Do you understand how absurd it is to cast Turkey as champion of the world’s oppressed minorities?”
    Your question is dishonest. Show me where I said anything remotely resembling that Turkey is the “champion of the world’s oppressed minorities.” What I have posted up as a source indicates the opposite: “Caught up in what it imagines as a virtual state of war against Turkey’s internal and external enemies, the CHP and its secular elite are more likely to espouse Hobbes than Rousseau or Mill.”
    —————-
    “Israel had done nothing against Turkish interests before Turkey sent the flotilla loaded with jihadist agents provocateurs.”
    I guess the Turks feel that the brutal repression of other Muslims was something that clashed with their interests. Again, the blockade was absurd, not allowing in concrete, fresh meat, margarine, children’s toys and many other daily necessities. I’d like to see where Israel has a mandate from the UN to be conducting this blockade. They have none. It’s illegal.
    ———-
    “The term “unrestrained aggression” is also ridiculous applied to Israel. Israel has the strongest regional military, bar none. If Israel had behaved in 1948 and 1967 like Egypt and Jordan did in 1948, today there would be NO Arabs in Israel, which would include the West Bank and Gaza. They absolutely had the power to do it. Only self-restraint prevented it.”
    OK, Israel has practiced unrestrained aggression unless compared to the Mongol Hordes and the Nazis. Arguably, Israel’s restraints come from the US from which it receives billions of dollars in aid every year and owes its very existence to. Israel would have fallen in 1973 without an emergency re-supply of military equipment from the US. Israel’s air force took such heavy losses it ceased to be effective and its tanks facing Egypt were nearly wiped out.
    —————-
    “Do try to understand the issues and describe them in appropriate terms.”
    I understand the issues far better and more fairly than an ill-informed bigot such as yourself.

    Reply

  43. nadine says:

    WEB, what does Israel’s behavior vis-a-vis the Palestinians have to do with Turkey, if not for Erdogan’s Islamist ideology? Do you understand how absurd it is to cast Turkey as champion of the world’s oppressed minorities? (If you were Kurdish, Greek or Armenian, you would understand.) Israel had done nothing against Turkish interests before Turkey sent the flotilla loaded with jihadist agents provocateurs.
    The term “unrestrained aggression” is also ridiculous applied to Israel. Israel has the strongest regional military, bar none. If Israel had behaved in 1948 and 1967 like Egypt and Jordan did in 1948, today there would be NO Arabs in Israel, which would include the West Bank and Gaza. They absolutely had the power to do it. Only self-restraint prevented it.
    Do try to understand the issues and describe them in appropriate terms.

    Reply

  44. nadine says:

    WEB, what does Israel’s behavior vis-a-vis the Palestinians have to do with Turkey, if not for Erdogan’s Islamist ideology? Do you understand how absurd it is to cast Turkey as champion of the world’s oppressed minorities? (If you were Kurdish, Greek or Armenian, you would understand.) Israel had done nothing against Turkish interests before Turkey sent the flotilla loaded with jihadist agents provocateurs.
    The term “unrestrained aggression” is also ridiculous applied to Israel. Israel has the strongest regional military, bar none. If Israel had behaved in 1948 and 1967 like Egypt and Jordan did in 1948, today there would be NO Arabs in Israel, which would include the West Bank and Gaza. They absolutely had the power to do it. Only self-restraint prevented it.
    Do try to understand the issues and describe them in appropriate terms.

    Reply

  45. nadine says:

    WEB, I’ve seen some recent polls from Turkey showing that the CHP is getting more support as Erdogan shows his hand and puts Turkey openly into the Iranian/Syria bloc. But it may be too late. He may steal the next election like his buddy Ahmedinejad did (Erdogan supported A’jad all the way).
    re: Jerusalem I posted a long reply which the blog swallowed “for approval” (I’ve had this happen once before with a long comment). If it comes back, you can read it. Meanwhile, here’s the short form: Israel is not ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem. The Palestinians are just wailing about ethnic cleansing to dumb/gullible/complicit reporters who repeat it all in print. Like Bill Maher said, they are too dumb to understand the issues, they just go, “who’s the victim here?”
    In 1970 Jerusalem was 75% Jewish and 25% Muslims. Since then, the Arab population has more than tripled and it’s now 65% Jewish, 32% Muslim. Does this sound like ethnic cleansing to you?
    The Palestinians have this really special talent: they can be “ethnically cleansed” from any place they chose while tripling their numbers in it. At least, to hear them tell it.

    Reply

  46. nadine says:

    WEB, I’ve seen some recent polls from Turkey showing that the CHP is getting more support as Erdogan shows his hand and puts Turkey openly into the Iranian/Syria bloc. But it may be too late. He may steal the next election like his buddy Ahmedinejad did (Erdogan supported A’jad all the way).
    re: Jerusalem I posted a long reply which the blog swallowed “for approval” (I’ve had this happen once before with a long comment). If it comes back, you can read it. Meanwhile, here’s the short form: Israel is not ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem. The Palestinians are just wailing about ethnic cleansing to dumb/gullible/complicit reporters who repeat it all in print. Like Bill Maher said, they are too dumb to understand the issues, they just go, “who’s the victim here?”
    In 1970 Jerusalem was 75% Jewish and 25% Muslims. Since then, the Arab population has more than tripled and it’s now 65% Jewish, 32% Muslim. Does this sound like ethnic cleansing to you?
    The Palestinians have this really special talent: they can be “ethnically cleansed” from any place they chose while tripling their numbers in it. At least, to hear them tell it.

    Reply

  47. nadine says:

    WEB, no, Israel is not engaged in ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem.
    What you are seeing is staged Palestinian screaming about “ethnic cleansing”, furthered by reporters too dumb or too complicit to sort fact from fiction.
    Let me explain what happens to facts in Jerusalem before they become news stories.
    Take the Shepherd’s hotel site in Sheikh Jarrah for example. Every single newspaper account talks about Palestinians protesting evictions by “settlers”, talks darkly about the Israeli efforts to “Judaize” East Jerusalem, and every single reporter laps it up and regurgitates it, because it fits the narrative. Whether it fits the facts, they don’t know and care even less.
    Here is some background. “[Shepherd’s Hotel] was first built in the 1930s by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al-Husayni, who was later deported by the British. After the Six-Day War it became the property of the State of Israel, and was subsequently sold in 1985 to a private company, who filed a request to permit construction on the property in November 2008.”
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Behind-the-Headlines-Background-information-regarding-the-Shepherd-Hotel-building-19-Jul-2009.htm
    So what we are talking about is a building being sold and eventually, the owner evicting the tenants (who were allowed to stay after 1967, please notice) in order to redevelop the site.
    Happens thousands of times a day in every city in the world. This being Jerusalem, the tenants are instructed not to move voluntarily, but to kick and scream for the cameras and make maximum fuss while protesters stage a riot.
    The neighborhood this building is in, Sheikh Jarrah, was mixed before 1948:
    At the Ottoman census of 1905, the Sheikh Jarrah nahiye (sub-district) consisted of the Muslim quarters of Sheikh Jarrah, Hayy el-Huseyni, Wadi el-Joz and Bab ez-Zahira, and the Jewish quarters of Shim’on Hatsadik and Nahalat Shim’on.[9] Its population was counted as 167 Muslim families, 97 Jewish families, and 6 Christian families.[9] It contained the largest concentration of Muslims outside the Old City.[9] In 1918 the Sheikh Jarrah quarter contained about 30 houses.[7]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah
    In 1948, all of East Jerusalem in Jordanian hands, including the Old City and Sheikh Jarrah, was ethnically cleansed of Jews. This was real ethnic cleansing, where one day there were many thousands of Jews east of the Green Line, and then there were none, all carted away prisoners. Those buildings that were not torn down to make the no-man’s land were given to Jordanians.
    After 1967, when Israel took the West Bank, some of the property-owners of Sheikh Jarrah sued to get their property back:
    “During the Six-Day War of 1967, Israel captured East Jerusalem, including Sheikh Jarrah. In 1972, the Sephardic Community Committee and the Knesset Yisrael Committee went to court to reclaim their property in the neighborhood. In 1982, they demanded rent for this property and the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in their favor. The tenants were allowed to remain as long as they paid rent.[1…On August 2, 2009, following an Israeli court decision, two Palestinian families (al-Hanoun and al-Ghawi), consisting of 53 persons, were evicted from two homes in Sheikh Jarrah. Jewish settlers moved into the houses almost immediately. The Israeli Supreme Court previously ruled that Jewish families had owned the land.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah
    So what you are really seeing are property disputes, of the sort that happen all over the world where borders change in war.
    Do try and notice the tiny numbers of people actually involved in the news reports: 30 tenants here, 20 new apartments there. They are spinning a story of ethnic cleansing out of single buildings. Meantime, what no reporter mentions is that in the next door Jewish neighborhood of Pisgat Zeev, Arab families are buying apartments and moving in without fuss.
    It’s all part of the Palestinian campaign to delegitimize Israel’s hold over its capital city.
    This includes telling dumb/complicit reporters that East Jerusalem is “historically Arab” when East Jerusalem includes the Old City, which before 1948 was most of the whole city, and which was majority Jewish for at least a hundred years before 1948.
    Jerusalem has grown fast since the Six Day War. In 1970, Jerusalem (using the expanded post 1967 city limits) was about 75% Jewish, nearly all the rest Muslim. Today it is only about 66% Jewish and 32% Muslim. The Arab population of Jerusalem has more than tripled.
    Please tell me, does this sound like “ethnic cleansing to you”?

    Reply

  48. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    I got this from a very intelligent young man, who is a Fulbright Scholar studying in Turkey. It seems to sum up well the current reason why the AKP with such a dreadful leader as Erdogan is able to be in power. It’s worth a read:
    http://turkishpoliticsinaction.blogspot.com/2010/05/enter-kilicdaroglu-toward-new-chp.html
    So many ways, the demise of the Turkish left can be attributed to its’ members own dogmatic prescriptions for the role of religion in society. The left’s strict interpretations of secularism and conflation of the Islamist threat have proved a serious distraction for the advocacy of the social and economic reforms that typify leftist existence in other countries. As the sole inheritor of the left’s legacy, CHP is a frightfully sad representation of its past history. Caught up in what it imagines as a virtual state of war against Turkey’s internal and external enemies, the CHP and its secular elite are more likely to espouse Hobbes than Rousseau or Mill. Rather than protecting free speech, it must be stifled to preserve the integrity of a state facing threats from Islamists and Kurds. Rather than allowing for democracy, elected parties must be periodically closed because they might threaten the nationalist or secularist order. Rather than joining truly social democratic nations in Europe, EU accession must be held circumspect because it involves a surrendering of centralized state control, a re-negotiation of secularism, and countenance liberalism, for individuals vested with too much liberty might act contrary to state ideology and the carefully devised plans of the ruling elite.
    Many liberals have left CHP, casting relucant votes for the center-right and vaguely Islamist AKP rather than continue to support the stumbling block Baykal and the CHP have thrown up in the way of Turkey’s larger political development. How many of the many “floating voters” that cast ballots for AKP in 2002, and again in 2004 and 2007, were disgruntled leftists, fed up with Baykal and CHP authoritarianism? Other liberals have continued to support CHP, but not without due anguish. Still, yet another group, perhaps not liberal, per se, but frustrated with Baykal and the CHP status quo while equally afraid of AKP’s economic liberalization schemes and “creeping conservatism,” continue to support CHP rather than wed themselves to a more liberal vision of Turkish politics, a liberal ideology that if properly formulated, might coalesce the reasons for their resentment toward AKP with an incipient support for individual liberties and democratic pluralism.
    —————
    WEB’s take:
    Turkey should just give up on joining the EU for a while. It’s not up to the job right now in terms of its economy, nor its political reforms, which are truly dreadful. If I was European I would be totally opposed to Turkey’s entry on sheer lack of merit. You can be jailed for “offending the Turkish nation” and who knows what other restrictions there are on civil liberties. These are the signs of a country that is still not ready to share the ideals of a union of liberal democracies.
    For all intents and purposes, joining the EU should be seen as a prestige project and the real focus should be on trying to simultaneously fix Turkey’s economy and making the nation as free as it can be without exploding in ethnic strife.
    Here is another good read: http://www.avrupa.info.tr/Files/MRGTurkeyReport%5B1%5D.pdf

    Reply

  49. Marcus says:

    All this talk of jewish congressional support for israel is such BS rascist hate-mongering.
    When the IRA were fighting the british during Reagans first term and american support shifted away from the british positions,did anyone accuse President Reagan of dual-loyalty ???????
    The Friends of Ireland was a group of 70 congressmen actively trying to shift americas support firmly behind the irish
    Kennedy
    Peter King
    Speaker O`neil
    Thomas Foley
    Patrick Moynihan
    and 65 others.
    Were these people called traitors ? No they were not.
    The Canadian PM at the time was another irishman Brian Mulrony…is this the same kind of stranglehold that idiot Sand was talking about?

    Reply

  50. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Carol, you and your ilk are nothing but anti-Semitic trash. You are merely a distraction to me, although I will admit that if given the chance, I will take the occasional potshot at you.

    Reply

  51. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine
    With regards to the Rubin article, there are elements of it that are true, but of course it’s only half true because Rubin appears to be a neo-con and writing with that agenda.
    Points of agreement:
    * Erdogan is an Islamist
    * Islamists want to be friends with other Islamists (Iran, Sudan, etc), hence the shift towards these rogue states
    * Erdogan benefits at home in Turkey for his statements condemning Israel
    * The secular military enjoys close ties with Israel, their fall from power gives less of a reason to have good relations with Israel
    Rubin has totally nailed the benefits of Turkey opposing Israel, however he fails to talk about how Israel’s completely reckless, spit in your face foreign policy has shifted the political calculus in the region and provided the opportunity for such benefits.
    * Israel is engaged in ETHNIC CLEANSING in Jerusalem, yes ethnic cleansing, making it deliberately hard for Palestinians to obtain paperwork and then bulldozing their homes and replacing them with Jewish settlements.
    * Israel is not even supposed to be in control of Jerusalem which the UN has mandated as an international city
    * Israel continues to colonize the West Bank, gradually eating away at a future Palestinian state
    * The blockade on Gaza has been absurd including a ban on concrete, fresh meat, margarine and children’s toys. What else is on the ban list, toilet tissue?
    My point is that Turkey’s behavior shift seems to be attributable mainly to the rise in power of an Islamist who happens to be a douchebag, however the break with Israel is entirely due to Israel’s unrestrained aggression in the Middle East. As far as that break is concerned, the question is why did the break not happen sooner?

    Reply

  52. Carroll says:

    Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois, Jun 30 2010, 8:20PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Are you going to be our resident “liberal zionist” to counterbalance our “far right” wig, marcus and nadine zionistas?
    And …the anti semitic slurs is meaningless these days, it’s no more than calling someone anti teabagger or anti liberal or anti communist or anti socialist.
    The jews wanted to ‘group’ together and form a jewish political movement for Israel and be players in US foreign policy? Well then, they can expect to get slapped around just like every other political ‘group’.
    What?…you thought because of the holocaust the Jews or zionist got an eternal get out of jail free card and criminal immunity in perpetuity for their Jewish state….silly you, it doesn’t work that way.

    Reply

  53. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine,
    I guess you don’t mind hijacking this thread. I’m going to post my reply to you in the thread I mentioned.
    @ The thread
    Found an interesting article on the prospects of kicking out Erdogan’s party next year. Granted it contains commentary from the conservative national review, but it’s still interesting.
    http://www.acus.org/natosource/can-turkish-opposition-kick-out-erdogan

    Reply

  54. nadine says:

    WEB, did you miss today’s news?
    “Payroll company ADP said private employers added just 13,000 jobs in June. That’s well short of the 60,000 economists polled by Thomson Reuters forecast.
    The weaker-than-expected jobs report is the latest in a long string of disappointing economic data that has contributed to the market’s turbulent second-quarter performance. Heading into the final day of June, the Dow is down 9.1 percent for the three-month period. Broader indexes are down 11 percent.
    The ADP report is often seen as a precursor to the Labor Department’s big monthly jobs report due out Friday. ADP’s data only includes jobs created by private companies so it can vary widely from the Labor Department data, which also includes government jobs.
    Friday’s government report is expected to show employers cut a total of 110,000 jobs in June. However, economists predict the net loss of jobs is tied primarily to the government laying off temporary workers that were hired to work on the 2010 census.”
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jmT59dgLTTziX4p9X9MRBRpWZGdQD9GLL82O0
    Don’t fall into Obama’s pattern of batting down straw man arguments that “my opponents would have done nothing”. There was bipartisan support for doing something. Just not massive Dem pet project spending disguised as ‘stiumulus’.

    Reply

  55. Marcus says:

    This particular jew is just glad that there are no jews in the deepwater drilling business,I think those guys are wasp, ( but I`m not compiling a list or anything.)

    Reply

  56. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine
    You don’t address your own point, which is poll numbers. Obama’s numbers are better than Reagan’s poll numbers at the same time during his Presidency by about 5%.
    You quickly point out the problems Reagan inherited but fail to mention the bigger problems Obama inherited (Wall Street meltdown, enormous fiscal deficit, enormous fiscal debt, bursting of the real estate bubble and a recession on top of that).
    Unemployment did not drop sharply. It dropped gradually, about 1.25% each year after December 1982 until election day.
    Your comment about Obama not addressing jobs is completely false and ignores the stimulus, which saved or created millions of jobs. As for healthcare, while it was opposed by the majority of the American people at the time of its passage, it is supported by the majority of the American people right now.
    Your other comments are wrong too. The bailout of the auto companies and the declaring of bankruptcy by GM was a good thing. Your advice would have made things worse. Obama has ended giving subsidies to banks to administer federal loans, a very wise thing to do. It’s telling that you call ending a policy which rewards corporations for doing nothing as a “take over.” That’s the looking out for corporations Republican policy.
    The last jobs report before the most recent showed a gain in employment in the private sector by a few hundred thousand jobs, so your predictions on further job growth is baseless.
    To prevent a thread hijack, I would rather continue any further debate on general Obama-US domestic politics here:
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/05/what_will_the_w/#comments

    Reply

  57. nadine says:

    Barry Rubin gives some background on Turkey’s switching sides from a US/Israel ally to an Iran/Syrian ally, which has been visible for years to those who follow the situation:
    “…Turkey needed Israel as an ally when a secular government in Ankara regarded Iran, Syria, and Saddam Hussein

    Reply

  58. nadine says:

    “Just wanted to quickly point a few holes in nadine’s comments. His over-reaching makes it fun. :)” (WEB)
    His?
    It’s true that the Republicans lost seats in 1982. Unemployment was over 11% at the time. However, Reagan addressed the economy (he inherited 20% interest rates), which turned around after 1982. Unemployment dropped sharply and Reagan’s popularity rose quickly. He was reelected easily in 1984. Obama by contrast, has never addressed jobs, despite promising to do so, except for wasting a trillion dollars we don’t have on a stimulus which nobody thinks has worked, according to polls. Instead he jammed down a budget-busting health care bill that 60% of voters want to repeal.
    Furthermore, Obama is making the economy worse: he’s running around doing government takeovers of auto companies, financial companies, insurance companies, students loans, the banks, all the while raising taxes, causing disruption and raising health costs. In short, the uncertainty level is sky-high and private sector hiring has ground to a halt. If it weren’t for a million temporary Census jobs the figures would look even worse. So Obama won’t be seeing Reagan’s economic recovery next year.
    Also, the Democrats are more vulnerable this year than the Republicans were in 1982, simply by virtue of the size of the majorities they won in 2006 and 2008. When you win all the swing seats one election, you are vulnerable to losing them the next.
    Thanks for looking up the Erdogan quotes, btw.

    Reply

  59. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Just wanted to quickly point a few holes in nadine’s comments. His over-reaching makes it fun. 🙂
    Obama’s poll numbers are down. Guess whose else were down during his first midterm elections.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/11887/ronald-reagan-from-peoples-perspective-gallup-poll-review.aspx
    [quote]
    “Things got worse for Reagan in 1982. The public’s view of the economy remained sour, and the president’s ratings during 1982 stayed concomitantly low, in the 40% range, ending the year at 41%. The 1982 midterm elections were not good ones for Reagan and for the GOP. The Republicans lost about 25 seats in the House.”[/quote]
    I have to say though, that nadine does make a solid point on Erdogan, so much so that I have to change my opinion on him and even Turkey very drastically.
    I looked up the quotes nadine mentioned and they are seriously bad.
    Erdogan did say that Muslims cannot commit genocide, which is why he was comfortable with allowing the Sudanese President to visit.
    He also did say that democracy is like a streetcar, which you ride till you get to your destination and then you get off. He said that while he was mayor (of Ankara, I believe).
    Erdogan definitely represents the wrong trend for Turkey and I hope that they can reverse their direction as much as the United States did in 2008.

    Reply

  60. Paul Norheim says:

    Are you suddenly getting specific again, POA?
    I would certainly welcome that. Because in the
    discussion I linked to, you said “the Jews”,
    contemplating the feeling of “disgust for the Jews”
    as possibly the morally right position, given that
    -you assumed – AIPAC, and people like Nadine,
    Marcus etc. represented the Jews – in general.
    Which they of course don’t do.
    There is of course nothing extraordinary about
    blaming this or that Jew, Norwegian, or American.
    But that was not what the discussion was about.

    Reply

  61. nadine says:

    “You live in a fantasy world, Nadine, unable to see
    certain things clearly due to your own extremist
    position. Obama is no leftist, he is a pragmatist
    at the center of the political spectrum in America.
    If he had been on the left, the progressives would
    have loved him. They don’t. They are very
    disappointed.” (Paul Norheim)
    So, you think Obama is a centrist? What a hoot. That’s not what he is, Paul, it’s only what he ran as. The American people are suffering buyer’s remorse and the independent voters are swinging hard against him. His job approval is down to 45% – 48%. He couldn’t get re-elected today.
    This is not my opinion, but Gallup’s:
    49% Say Democrats are “too liberal”
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/139877/Near-Record-Say-Democratic-Party-Liberal.aspx
    42%, 35%, 20%. That’s the percentage of Americans who call themselves “conservative”, “moderate”, or “liberal”.
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-conservatives-outnumber-moderates-liberals.aspx
    Let’s put it this way: if Obama really a centrist with broad popular support, Democrats should not lose too many seats in the midterms. Wait and see what happens.
    Just because there is a disappointed looney left fringe in America is not evidence that Obama is a centrist.
    As for Erdogan, when a man defends Hamas as “not a terrorist group” and says there is no genocide in the Sudan because “Muslims don’t commit genocide” and calls democracy a “streetcar”, you don’t have to be paranoid to notice that this is not the speech of a moderate. (Rather, you have to be hiding your head in the sand not to notice) And Erdogan’s actions match his speech.

    Reply

  62. JohnH says:

    Prove it, Nadine: Erdogan has “been working to arrest the opposition and shut down the opposition media, so that Turks are afraid to speak against him. Now he’s changing the Turkish constitution to make it even harder to unseat him.”
    The only opposition figures arrested by Erdogan have been military folks plotting coups. Apparently Jewish supremacists think that military rule is preferable to democracy.
    BTW, when you “prove” your point, please do not cite notorious hasbara sources.

    Reply

  63. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “But Carroll and POA have started
    arguing that it’s time to blame, not this or that Jew having bad influence on US
    policies, but to blame “THE Jews” in general”
    Gee Paul, go screw yourself.
    “Jews in General”?
    Nope.
    “The Jewish State”, and those Jews that support Israeli attrocities done in the name of “The Jewish State”?
    Yep.
    Get off your high horse, its getting old.

    Reply

  64. Paul Norheim says:

    “…it is much harder for me to make that argument
    with any conviction…”
    Unfortunately, I think it’s true.”
    And the “argument” POA referred to in that quote,
    if my memory is correct, was the distinction
    between the actions of the Israeli government, and
    “the Jews” in general (whether in Israel or
    elsewhere in the world).
    Sand, I still think this distinction is crucial.

    Reply

  65. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Posted by W.E.B. Du Boise, Jun 30 2010, 9:48PM – Link
    Oh BTW Mr W.E.B DubBois ~ self anointed bigot catcher for the Washingtonnote — just checking — you do know that Palestinians are semites too…? Or are you just concerned and interested in the Jewish variety coz that would mean you “judge people by their race or religion.”?
    Just sayin'”
    ——————–
    Nice sock puppet. Looks and acts like Sand, the anti-Semite. The fact that you hide behind a sock puppet says everything about you and what you believe in.

    Reply

  66. Paul Norheim says:

    You live in a fantasy world, Nadine, unable to see
    certain things clearly due to your own extremist
    position. Obama is no leftist, he is a pragmatist
    at the center of the political spectrum in America.
    If he had been on the left, the progressives would
    have loved him. They don’t. They are very
    disappointed.
    And Erdogan has more of a “centrist” and moderate,
    than an extremist position. But from your extremist
    position, every moderate or rational politician
    looks ominously like a terrorist or Jew hater.
    May I recommend a different optician?

    Reply

  67. Sand says:

    Paul — I haven’t read all of POA’s and Carolls comments — but I did notice this:
    “…But as more and more Jews, both here and in Israel, sign on to, advocate, condone and justify the daily attrocities committed by Israel’s police, military, and leadership against the Palestinian people, it is much harder for me to make that argument with any conviction…”
    Unfortunately, I think it’s true.
    Richard Silverstein had a Gaza Conference that I attended — there were only about 170 people there. I read the local Synagogue news alerts, AIPAC has an office here too — It’s all about supporting Israel — regardless what it has done — and obviously the threat of Iran.
    I’ve meet so-called progressive’s here part of MoveOn.org — but when you talk about the Palestinians or Iran I think they would draft your own grandmother to make sure Israel is protected. It’s bad here. I’ve lived in the UK and Canada — the strangle hold is tight.
    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/27/seattle-conference-gaza-humanitarian-crisis/

    Reply

  68. nadine says:

    “”He wants to join the Islamist bloc and perhaps
    revive Turkey’s Ottoman influence.”
    Why are you so damned sure of everything when the
    evidence is contradictory and open to different
    reasonable interpretations? Are you a prophet,
    Nadine?” (Paul Norheim)
    Paul, the evidence is not that contradictory, especially in this last year when Erdogan has dropped his pretences and has spent lots of face in Terhan, making treaties and praising and hugging Ahmedinejad and Assad (literally), breaking relations with Israel, praising Hamas and Bashir of Sudan, sending agents provocateurs to break the Gaza blockade.
    You’re just looking at the wishful thinking of the Left about what a great moderate guy this Erdogan is. Meantime, he’s been working to arrest the opposition and shut down the opposition media, so that Turks are afraid to speak against him. Now he’s changing the Turkish constitution to make it even harder to unseat him.
    It was Erdogan who compared democracy to a streetcar, saying you take it to your destination, then get off. The Islamist destination is not democracy.
    Really, it’s as if I said “President Obama is trying to take American politics on a lurch to the left,” and you said, “no, no, how can you be sure? He calls himself a moderate.” I can be sure because the evidence is in, just look at what he has been doing.

    Reply

  69. W.E.B. Du Boise says:

    Oh BTW Mr W.E.B DubBois ~ self anointed bigot catcher for the Washingtonnote — just checking — you do know that Palestinians are semites too…? Or are you just concerned and interested in the Jewish variety coz that would mean you “judge people by their race or religion.”?
    Just sayin’

    Reply

  70. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “I apologize.”
    You’re too nice. 🙂
    Personally, I maintain that nadine’s bigotry is shown by his hanging out at “sandmonkeys.org”
    (1) Though the blogger is nationally Egyptian, he has not said that he is an Arab. So his motives are not as clear as nadine says. Given nadine’s comments that Erdogan is trying to bring back the Ottoman Empire, I don’t think he can be called a credible source on anything.
    (2) Even if the blogger were Arab and he were Egyptian, it still does not justify the use of racial slurs by him towards his own. No more so than an Asian person making a blog called “Eastern Gook.”
    Not asking you to agree with me on that one, just letting you know my position is unchanged on that one. 🙂

    Reply

  71. nadine says:

    “With regards to sandmonkey.org, the blogger is indeed Egyptian. I haven’t read anything about him being Arab though. In all likelihood, he is the son of an ambassador from a country outside Egypt who came to Egypt, and thus calls himself Egyptian.”
    No he’s not. He is Muslim and Egyptian and comes from a well-to-do Egyptian family. That much you can glean from his posts, which I have been reading for years. He’s not the first or last bright young man to rebel against the diet of state-run propaganda he’s been fed all his life, especially now that other facts are available through other sources.
    Naturally, he’s not eager to post enough to identify him, especially when you read how his fellow young Egyptian blogger just got beaten to death by the secret police, ostensibly for refusing to show them his ID.

    Reply

  72. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Erdogan’s entire course of action for the last eight years has shown that he never wanted to join the West in the first place. He wants to join the Islamist bloc and perhaps revive Turkey’s Ottoman influence.”
    -nadine
    ——-
    You again reveal your hate toward Muslims. Turkey’s negotiations to JOIN THE EU began under Erdogan, so your claim that “he never wanted to join the West in the first place” shows that you ignore facts and judge people by their race or religion.
    Your comment about them wanting to revive Turkey’s Ottoman influence is extremely ignorant, as the Ottoman Empire was totally emasculated for the last few centuries of its existence and even if your ignorant comment were true, it would simultaneously mean war with the EU and the “Islamist bloc” that you claim it wants to join. Again, your comments have no basis in reality or sanity for that matter.

    Reply

  73. Paul Norheim says:

    “Paul, the site is the blog of a young Egyptian who
    chose the name for himself, because he is young and
    snarky.” (Nadine)
    I apologize.
    “He wants to join the Islamist bloc and perhaps
    revive Turkey’s Ottoman influence.”
    Why are you so damned sure of everything when the
    evidence is contradictory and open to different
    reasonable interpretations? Are you a prophet,
    Nadine?

    Reply

  74. Sand says:

    W.E.B. Du Bois: “…Sand, you can demonstrate your lack of originality by copying what I say about you and parroting it back to me, but that doesn’t change that you are an anti-Semite…”
    OK — If it makes you happy saying I’m an anti-Semite and it gives you some pleasure, a thrill up the leg or something — then OK whatever.

    Reply

  75. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Sand, you can demonstrate your lack of originality by copying what I say about you and parroting it back to me, but that doesn’t change that you are an anti-Semite.
    Your quotes prove that:
    “Really. The drum beat for war by politically motivated Jews over HERE!! is getting louder — and just because you can’t hear it — it’s not our problem.”
    – Sand
    “Rep. Weiner part of Israel’s very special team of little Gatekeepers.”
    – Sand
    “Also hats off to Helena Cobban’s post alerting us to more problems with our AIPAC embeds or, as I guess we now are calling them “burrowers.”
    (Your tone indicates that Jews are not Americans. Disgusting.)

    Reply

  76. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine,
    With regards to sandmonkey.org, the blogger is indeed Egyptian. I haven’t read anything about him being Arab though. In all likelihood, he is the son of an ambassador from a country outside Egypt who came to Egypt, and thus calls himself Egyptian.
    Most people who belong to a race, don’t deploy racial slurs against their own race.
    The ease with which your threw Turkey into the camp of the Iranian mollahs was definitely bizarre on your part.

    Reply

  77. Sand says:

    W.E.B. Du Bois — you are freakin’ delusional.
    Really — I’ve been following this stuff far far too long for you to jump out with a few of my quotes — and say — “Hah ha by God she’s an anti-semite.”
    E.g. Weiner’s record and recorded speeches alone show he’s a raving Israel-Firster loon that is a fake progressive and loves the media limelight.
    Go off and continue to dig your hole!

    Reply

  78. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine,
    With regards to sandmonkey.org, the blogger is indeed Egyptian. I haven’t read anything about him being Arab though. In all likelihood, he is the son of an ambassador from a country outside Egypt who came to Egypt, and thus calls himself Egyptian.
    Most people who belong to a race, don’t deploy racial slurs against their own race.
    The ease with which your threw Turkey into the camp of the Iranian mollahs was definitely bizarre on your part.

    Reply

  79. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @ nadine,
    With regards to sandmonkey.org, the blogger is indeed Egyptian. I haven’t read anything about him being Arab though. In all likelihood, he is the son of an ambassador from a country outside Egypt who came to Egypt, and thus calls himself Egyptian.
    Most people who belong to a race, don’t deploy racial slurs against their own race.
    The ease with which your threw Turkey into the camp of the Iranian mollahs was definitely bizarre on your part.

    Reply

  80. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Congratulations sand, for quoting yourself as proof that you are right. xD More of your mental patient logic.
    You can’t make one post without railing against Jews. You are an anti-Semite.
    Your comments on this thread show your anti-Semitism:
    “Really. The drum beat for war by politically motivated Jews over HERE!! is getting louder — and just because you can’t hear it — it’s not our problem.”
    – Sand
    (If you asked people if this quote was from a political blog or a 1930’s speech in Germany, most people could not tell the difference.)
    “Rep. Weiner part of Israel’s very special team of little Gatekeepers.”
    – Sand
    (Very anti-Semitic and conspiracy sounding in the way it diminishes someone’s identity as an American because he does not agree with your views. You definitely tip your hand there.)
    “Also hats off to Helena Cobban’s post alerting us to more problems with our AIPAC embeds or, as I guess we now are calling them “burrowers.”
    (More evidence of the same. Your tone indicates that Jews are not Americans. Disgusting.)

    Reply

  81. nadine says:

    “As for Nadine’s reference to “sandmonkeys.org”, it
    speaks volumes, doesn’t it? She remains a bigot.” (Paul Norheim)
    It speaks volumes only to the prejudiced.
    Paul, the site is the blog of a young Egyptian who chose the name for himself, because he is young and snarky.
    Now, if you don’t feel foolish, you ought to. Why don’t you go have a look before making more ignorant comments?
    As for Turkey, doesn’t Erdogan get a vote in what happens to Turkey’s relationship vis-a-vis Europe, the US, and Israel? If he chooses to flaunt new close ties with Iran, Syria, Hezbullah and Hamas, as he has, how can anyone not expect a deleterious effect on his relationship with the West?
    Stop this idiotic pretense that Muslims cannot act for themselves, but only react to somebody else. Whatever the EU did or did not do to Turkey’s admission for EU membership, Erdogan’s entire course of action for the last eight years has shown that he never wanted to join the West in the first place. He wants to join the Islamist bloc and perhaps revive Turkey’s Ottoman influence.

    Reply

  82. Sand says:

    Sand: “…Anti-Semitic cries aside will be looked on for the pathetic shams they are…”
    Case in point:
    W.E.B. Du Bois:”…despite the fact that they are provided by an anti-Semitic bigot on this site…”
    Truly, I hope you enjoy living in Alice in Wonderland.

    Reply

  83. Paul Norheim says:

    Sand,
    no, not sturmfronters; nor do they hate “all Jews”. But Carroll and POA have started
    arguing that it’s time to blame, not this or that Jew having bad influence on US
    policies, but to blame “THE Jews” in general. The recent discussion I referred to
    above can be found here:
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/06/end_the_siege_o/#comments

    Reply

  84. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Sorry, I think it is you and others that *neeD* to catch to what the rest of the *World* sees Israel for what it truly is. Anti-Semitic cries aside will be looked on for the pathetic shams they are. The number of bigots (like you) that try to justify the actions of Israel and those in Congress who are there to protect Israel disgusts most people when they find out about it — but obviously not you.”

    Reply

  85. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Thanks, Paul. I enjoyed reading your balanced post. I never thought I’d enjoy balance so much, but these days (lol) it’s a rare commodity.
    I agree with you that it’s wrong for a bunch of countries to send a signal that they will let another country into a club and then change their mind at the last second.
    I believe the problem is on the one hand racial and religious and on the other hand political. The EU has not been that popular. Even the Maastricht Treaty which established the EU was only narrowly approved in France. I mean like with a few % of defeat. The EU Constitution was defeated. The EU was already taking significant backlash for having grown too fast before they gave up on Turkey. Krugman wrote a chapter in an International Trade book a long time ago about why the EU was a bad idea, even without Turkey. He basically argued that there had to be large enough trade between European countries to justify the loss of individual rights to change monetary and fiscal policies which would be forfeited by each country upon the creation of a central bank.
    I think that we will not distance ourselves from Turkey. We already have too many enemies (North Korea, Iran) as well as international terrorists and putting down hostile groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Making new enemies is a luxury the US cannot afford.
    I will say that as someone who admired Lula of Brazil (due to his left of center pragmatism and economic accomplishments for the country) I was surprised to see him try to cut a deal with Iran. I don’t really like Erdogan’s Islamism (although he has achieved great economic progress for Turkey) and his friendly overtures towards Iran are disturbing.

    Reply

  86. Sand says:

    by W.E.B. Du Bois: “…You are so far off the reservation that even people who believe the US is too biased towards Israel will find you abhorrent. You will be regarded as a bigot in nearly all quarters of American society, with the exception of the few people who share your deranged point of view…”
    Sorry, I think it is you and others that *neeD* to catch to what the rest of the *World* sees Israel for what it truly is. Anti-Semitic cries aside will be looked on for the pathetic shams they are. The number of bigots (like you) that try to justify the actions of Israel and those in Congress who are there to protect Israel disgusts most people when they find out about it — but obviously not you.
    Israel’s Suicidal Course
    — Sinking Ship
    John J. Mearsheimer
    http://amconmag.com/article/2010/aug/01/00010/
    And may Israel’s suicide come quickly — because I don’t want to go down with it.

    Reply

  87. Paul Norheim says:

    Du Bois,
    Nice to hear a different voice here.
    As for Nadine’s reference to “sandmonkeys.org”, it
    speaks volumes, doesn’t it? She remains a bigot.
    Re Turkey, I basically agree with your take. I
    think it was a huge mistake that Europe hesitated
    for so long, and basically sent negative signals
    regarding EU membership.
    And it would be extremely foolish if the US
    distances itself from Turkey due to recent
    developments – listening to pro-Israel voices
    claiming that Turkey=Iran. There is no reason not
    to think that Turkey remains a true bridge between
    the West and the Muslim world, a bridge that may
    be crucial in critical times.
    Distancing ourselves by claiming that Turkey is
    turning into an Islamist society is not only
    stupid, but could eventually – given the specific
    circumstances, and internal dynamics within Turkey
    – even become a self fulfilling prophecy.

    Reply

  88. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “Do you really think I care a squat what you think?
    The source material I provide is there for people to read if they want to — From there they can make up their own minds and opinions, just as I have every right to my opinion.”
    ——
    Don’t care what I think. You are so far off the reservation that even people who believe the US is too biased towards Israel will find you abhorrent. You will be regarded as a bigot in nearly all quarters of American society, with the exception of the few people who share your deranged point of view.

    Reply

  89. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    With regards to Mearsheimer’s article, it’s either (1) wrong or (2) perhaps so far-sighted and down the road that it seems wrong now but may come true in 50 years or so.
    Mearsheimer is wrong in (1) his characterization of Israel as having lost the 1973 War. Israel kicked Syria’s, Egypt’s and Jordan’s asses, as well as the other Arab states who lent their air forces to the Arab alliance. That’s a technicality, but I wanted to get that out of the way.
    (2) He’s also fundamentally wrong in understanding the strength of Israel as a military fighting force. Israel has a more powerful air force than Turkey, which is more than 10 times as populous. Israel has nuclear weapons and has them deployed on cruise missiles in submarines. Israel has a sophisticated ballistic missile defense and the best armored forces in the region. Israel is quite strong militarily and it is difficult to see how this would change.
    (3) He is wrong in the political calculations of the United States. The US is strongly pro-Israel. Jews are very often pro-Israel and they have huge influence on the Democratic Party and they occupy key electoral states in Presidential elections. Republicans are even more pro-Israel than Democrats. Besides this, American public opinion shifted even more against Muslims after 9/11 and the repeated terrorist attacks attempted by Muslims on the United States.
    Mearsheimer’s best point is his demographic point about Israel becoming like apartheid South Africa. I don’t think this could come about so much because of Israel expanding into “Greater Israel” territorially, but due to the Palestinians already in Israel. The territorial expansion into Palestinian lands seems to me to be without the inclusion of Palestinians. The areas are literally colonized and then they are separated from the rest of Palestinian lands. That’s how it seems to me anyway.
    Mearsheimer’s demographic argument could be what eventually prevails in his overall argument, but that seems to be decades away at least.

    Reply

  90. Sand says:

    “Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois, Jun 30 2010, 7:59PM – Link — Sand, your tone makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best, and anti-Semitic at worst.”
    Do you really think I care a squat what you think?
    The source material I provide is there for people to read if they want to — From there they can make up their own minds and opinions, just as I have every right to my opinion.

    Reply

  91. Sand says:

    “Tell me, Sand: What exactly is my attitude? Do you know my position?”
    Your ‘attitude’ from what I’ve observed from your recent posts (I’m not here all the time) have been like some obsessed ADL moderator… You trying to equate most of Carroll’s and POA’s posts as anti-semitic have me baffled… Who the f*ck cares —
    They’re angry — ok what’s the problem with that — if you disagree with their *facts or arguments* then yes dispute them — bring in your own argument but for you to keep droning on about them being anti-semitic doesn’t help.
    I don’t believe either Carroll or POA are stormfronters, they don’t hate all jews — they don’t carry (or maybe we should ask them) a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion — I don’t think so.
    What has so offended you?

    Reply

  92. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Sand, your tone makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best, and anti-Semitic at worst.

    Reply

  93. Paul Norheim says:

    “If you can’t admit there being *Jews* in Congress
    that are doing massive harm against US interests –
    – there’s little hope for you.” (Sand)
    I have no problem agreeing that the powerful pro-
    Israel lobbies in the US Congress do massive harm
    against US interests. That’s obvious.
    “…especially when you have no idea of the kind
    of local mobilizing force we have to put up with –
    – who often have the same attitudes as yours with
    their only aim to stifle speech.”
    Tell me, Sand: What exactly is my attitude? Do you
    know my position? I basically agree with what Walt
    and Mearsheimer said in their “Lobby” book. Do I
    have to support open anti-Semitism to avoid being
    accused of stifling speech in America? Carroll and
    POA have done so in recent debates here that you
    may or may not have read. I vehemently objected to
    their position in our discussion, and I still do.

    Reply

  94. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    Paul,
    I am very interested in a decent discussion on politics (any politics :D). Let’s give it a go. I liked your comment: “On one hand, there is Nadine with her non stop defense of everything Israel does, and her bigoted attacks on everything Arab or Muslim.”
    As Nadine used a link from a blog called “sandmonkeys.org” I was just thinking to myself, is there anything but this bigots exchanges with other people? Having read comments on other sites, I also have read a bunch of idiots on the other side just bashing Jews.
    Let’s start fresh. Is Turkey America’s best ally in the Middle East? I think we can agree that Turkey is definitely one of the best allies to the US in the region. Our allies are Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, Israel, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, perhaps Egypt and perhaps other countries as well (i.e Yemen, UAE, etc).
    I think that Turkey can be useful if they help apply pressure to keep other countries from developing nuclear weapons, and to encourage secularism throughout the Muslim world. Maybe Turkey will not long be able to maintain its own secularism, but perhaps they will not turn that far Islamist even in the worst case. What will they do, outlaw drinking? Allow the headscarf to be worn in public buildings? Not really a big deal and I think that even modern progressive Islamic societies like Malaysia are more Islamist than Turkey.
    The problem for the United States is that we are totally pro-Israeli biased. Even when the President tries to make our policies fair, you can count on him being tackled by AIPAC and pro-Israeli groups within the Democratic Party.
    I really can’t fathom why Erdogan would want to pretend that Iran is not trying to develop nuclear weapons as he does. It’s really a bizarre move and needs explanation. Despite that, I don’t think there’s much of a rift in reality between the US and Turkey. Many Israeli nationalists think there is one, but that is only because Turkey dared denounce Israel’s conduct vis-a-vis Gaza and that Turkey has made favorable comments towards Hamas and Hezbollah. In reality, that is the mainstream opinion in the Muslim world. If people think that a government echoing that opinion is alarming, then they were too busy yelling for more pro-Israeli policies to have been listening in the first place.

    Reply

  95. Sand says:

    Paul — I don’t understand you. If you can’t admit there being *Jews* in Congress that are doing massive harm against US interests — there’s little hope for you.
    Also as you don’t actually live here I’m really surprised at your condescension at times… especially when you have no idea of the kind of local mobilizing force we have to put up with — who often have the same attitudes as yours with their only aim to stifle speech. Example — as in my Seattle. Evangelical Christians here are more interested in god, guns, gays and abortion than Israel — so in Seattle — the right wing Jews are the force to reckon with.
    So, please get over it. If the mere mention of *Jew* somr how offends you — then don’t read Carroll’s, POA and even my posts etc.
    Really. The drum beat for war by politically motivated Jews over HERE!! is getting louder — and just because you can’t hear it — it’s not our problem.

    Reply

  96. Paul Norheim says:

    Sweetness said (re. the “Intel” discussion): “The
    truth is, Paul, it has almost nothing to do with
    it. Marcus and other nuts exaggerate Israel’s
    achievements. Carroll and her brand of idiots
    denigrate them.
    It’s just the usual pissing match.”
    I guess so. For the last couple of weeks I’ve been
    asking myself if there is any point discussing
    Middle East issues within the current environment
    at the comment section of TWN.
    On one hand, there is Nadine with her non stop
    defense of everything Israel does, and her bigoted
    attacks on everything Arab or Muslim. And there is
    Marcus expressing the same views in even more
    blunt and extreme language. On the other hand, we
    have regulars like Carroll and POA howling: “The
    Jews! The Jews!”
    I am especially disappointed (and surprised) that
    POA converted to anti-Semitism.
    I never imagined that the discussions here could
    become so primitive. The worst thing is that
    people that are much more competent than myself on
    these issues will not feel tempted to discuss the
    issues within the current environment, where
    polarized and stupid positions dominate the
    discussions and always get the last word.

    Reply

  97. JohnH says:

    Marcus– a little more on my heritage. My surname comes from a country that has multiple languages, multiple ethnic groups, and multiple religions. They have a long tradition of living in peace and harmony, though they once fought a civil war for three weeks. They colonized no one, invaded no one, did no ethnic cleansing, and conduct no pogroms amongst their neighbors.
    You see, marcus, with a little imagination and goodwill peace can prevail. Israeli leaders should spend some time there and learn some lessons (though they probably can’t for fear of being prosecuted for war crimes.)

    Reply

  98. Sand says:

    BTW — why aren’t we hearing anything about Dennis Blair’s replacement? He resigned end of May — and not a squeak from the Lobby, or Steve?

    Reply

  99. Sand says:

    Nadine: “Sand, you obviously have NO idea how many phony think tanks host crowds of Lobbyists on Saudi funding, or how many ex State Dept. types have a cosy sinecure at them, all shilling for the Saudis.”
    No I don’t — and from the looks of things they can’t be getting their money’s worth…
    I guess Chas Freeman in your paranoid mind is one of the shills for SA — noting what your lot did to him.

    Reply

  100. Sand says:

    Nadine: “Sand, you obviously have NO idea how many phony think tanks host crowds of Lobbyists on Saudi funding, or how many ex State Dept. types have a cosy sinecure at them, all shilling for the Saudis.”
    No I don’t — and from the looks of things they can’t be getting their money’s worth…
    I guess Chas Freeman in your paranoid mind is one of the shills SA — noting what your lot did to him.

    Reply

  101. nadine says:

    Sand, you obviously have NO idea how many phony think tanks host crowds of Lobbyists on Saudi funding, or how many ex State Dept. types have a cosy sinecure at them, all shilling for the Saudis.
    If they don’t make more headway, it’s only because the majority of the American people don’t like Wahhabi theocratic monarchies, but do like Israel.

    Reply

  102. Sand says:

    Nadine: “Yah sure, that’s what’s missing. The Saudis & the other oil potentates have not figured out how to lobby DC! They don’t spend any of their wealth buying friends in Washington. Yeah, that’s it!”
    Give me a break! There’s always enough servants of Israel in Congress and DC to block any real Saudi lobbying power *especially* when they go up against your friends. American interests be damned.
    — Congress Slows Saudi Arms Sale
    …Administration officials anticipated the deals would be wrapped up quickly and ready for congressional review last September. The 1976 Arms Export Control Act requires most major arms sales valued at more than $14 million to be notified to Congress,…
    Some lawmakers did not wait for an official notification to protest. LED BY REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D-N.Y.), 16 representatives announced July 31 that they would seek to block the reported inclusion of Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) in the package to Saudi Arabia. Those systems improve the accuracy of bombs by enabling them to be directed by satellites…”
    http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2008_01-02/saudiarms
    Rep. Weiner part of Israel’s very special team of little Gatekeepers.

    Reply

  103. JohnH says:

    Marcus–people of my heritage are not lobbying Congress on behalf of a foreign government. Nor are people of my countries of ancestry engaged in any colonization, brutal occupation, ethnic cleansing, or pogroms against their neighbors.
    I guess maybe that’s why they have no need to lobby Congress on their behalf.

    Reply

  104. JohnH says:

    If wealthy Arabs have figured out how lobby on behalf of Palestinians, they are a singularly inept lot. My guess is they have have not bothered to make the requisite investments. There are experienced PR firms in Washington who will represent anybody and do so very effectively. For whatever reasons, wealthy Arab leaders prefer to let their legitimacy be sapped in the eyes of their people instead of being proactive.
    Of course, if Israel stays on its current path of self destruction, then there is no reason for them to waste their money…
    Also, it’s true that most people remain in the silent majority, unless goaded by their leaders or by outside events. Sixty years of Israeli provocations have taken their toll on Arab public opinion, yet Jewish supremacists insist on continuing to poke their fingers in Arabs’ eyes, conducting regular pogroms in Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza. Yet it is not Arab leaders who will stand and be counted. Rather it is Turkey and Iran, who gain popularity in Arab public opinion at the expense of their own US-allied “leaders.”

    Reply

  105. nadine says:

    “If Arab leaders would invest a tiny fraction of their enormous wealth in canceling out Jewish establishment influence, there would be peace between Israel and Palestine.” (Johnh)
    Yah sure, that’s what’s missing. The Saudis & the other oil potentates have not figured out how to lobby DC! They don’t spend any of their wealth buying friends in Washington. Yeah, that’s it!
    You’re a real hoot, JohnH.

    Reply

  106. nadine says:

    A good explanation of why it should not comfort anyone that most Turks are not extreme Islamists:
    A Holocaust Survivor’s View on Islam
    A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
    We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
    The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march… It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
    The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
    Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
    The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
    And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
    History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
    Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
    Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
    Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts — the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
    Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it and send it on – before it’s too late.
    Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor , MI 48104
    *Dr. Emanuel Tanay MD is a well-known forensic psychiatrist who has been an expert witness in many famous cases. He has served as an officer or committee member on the Michigan Psychiatric Society, the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, the American Psychiatric Association (APA), and others. He is a diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology and of the American Board of Forensic Psychiatry and a distinguished fellow of the APA and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (AAFC).
    A Holocaust survivor himself, Dr Tanay coauthored a book about the survivors of the Holocaust and was asked by the German government to consult on just compensation for the Holocaust survivors. Dr. Tanay has served on several journal editorial boards, authored many publications, and presented countless times on forensic medicine. His efforts have also produced many awards and commendations from groups such as theMichigan State Medical Society, APA, the Detroit Institute of Technology, and AAFC, among others.

    Reply

  107. Sand says:

    Rep Gary ACKERMAN is also a member of B’nai B’rith, a Jewish advocacy group who recently
    “…issued a statement criticizing the recommendations of the Middle East Study Committee of the Presbyterian Church USA. These recommendations include possibly withholding US military aid to Israel in order to encourage it to abide by international law as well as an endorsement of the important Kairos Document, recently put forth jointly by the leaders of the Palestinian Christian community…”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/will-mainline-american-protestants-give-palestinian-christians-a-voice.html
    http://www.nndb.com/org/511/000042385/
    Conflict of interest — much?

    Reply

  108. Sand says:

    Rep. Gary ACKERMAN: Chairman of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East is aslo the PRESIDENT of the International Council of Jewish Parliamentarians (ICJP)
    http://www.icjp.net/who.htm
    Noting members of his steering committee are Knesset members whom we can assume are advocating policy exclusively in Israel’s interest.
    The World Jewish Congress whose main purpose is to act as “the diplomatic arm of the Jewish people” helps fund this council.
    IN RECENT NEWS:
    — Ackerman calls on Jewish lawmakers to meet in Jerusalem [June 9, 2010] JTA
    “…WASHINGTON (JTA) The president of an international umbrella body for Jewish lawmakers is calling for a meeting in Jerusalem to discuss Israel’s “delegitimization.”
    “Israel is confronting a global effort to denude it of its legitimacy and its right to self-defense,” U.S. Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.), the chairman of the International Council of Jewish Parliamentarians, said in a statement Wednesday. “And while American support for Israel, and particularly for Israel

    Reply

  109. Marcus says:

    JohnH; It`s always jews this and jews that with you, how about revealing what your ancenstry is, so we can count how many of your kind there are in Congress.

    Reply

  110. JohnH says:

    Most Jews do pretty well, too, once that they’re out of the ME. It’s the exceptions–rabid Jewish supremacists who cause the problems. Perhaps the US needs a few Arabs who behave the same to balance things out? Maybe a well funded AAPAC to lobby Congress, lavishly fund Congressional elections, and buy a few key media conglomerates?
    If Arab leaders would invest a tiny fraction of their enormous wealth in canceling out Jewish establishment influence, there would be peace between Israel and Palestine.

    Reply

  111. Marcus says:

    To equate Hamas with the NGO world Jewish Congress demonstrates the same insanity as carroll seeing nothing wrong in allowing every country in the world having nuclear weapons,from Canada to Yemen,same difference to her.
    This person is clearly incapable of rational discernment between safe and unsafe or right and wrong. It`s no surprise that she is the biggest Israel basher and anti-semite posting regularly.

    Reply

  112. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    “WE Du Bois, I’m not bigoted at all to Arabs. They do just fine as a rule once they get out of Mideast, which many of them do.
    It’s Arab politics I can’t stand. Corrupt and brutal, reactionary and vicious to minorities. A Strong Man on top maintaining control through terror. You can ask how and why, but it’s just a fact, true in both US allies like Egypt (see “On Khaled Said” http://www.sandmonkey.org/2010/06/13/on-khaled-said/ ) and US enemies like Syria.”
    I think you just provided the most solid evidence that you are bigoted to Arabs by providing a link to “sandmonkey.org” which features monkeys wearing Turkish fezes in the banner.
    Your credibility is just about finished. One question for you: is “sandmonkey.org” your personal blog?

    Reply

  113. nadine says:

    JohnH, you must not have looked carefully at that piece by Shlomo ben Ami, as he is far more rational than your usual sources:
    “To both Israel and the West, the regional context of Turkey

    Reply

  114. Sweetness says:

    Nadine, I don’t doubt it–but they haven’t cured death yet nor
    invented the fountain of youth, as some boosters (almost) suggest.

    Reply

  115. nadine says:

    Hi Sweetness, Israel’s economic achievements are actually quite remarkable. There is a recent book about them by Dan Senor & Saul Singer, which is getting good reviews:
    Start-up Nation: The Story of Israel’s Economic Miracle
    http://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-Miracle/dp/044654146X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277928335&sr=8-2
    Of course, if you went looking for the real reasons for the Muslim world’s rejection of the existence of Israel (as opposed to the reasons they put forward to their fellow travelers in the West), Israel’s economic and military successes, which put the Arab world to shame, would rank rather high on the list.

    Reply

  116. nadine says:

    “Maybe we should expell the Jews in congress like Ackerman who are members of International Jewish World Congress and other international jewish “nationalist” organizations. ” (Carroll)
    Surely it would be simpler to just make them wear some identifying insignia…a yellow Star of David perhaps?

    Reply

  117. Carroll says:

    Maybe we should expell the Jews in congress like Ackerman who are members of International Jewish World Congress and other international jewish “nationalist” organizations. HUM..marcus?? the Jews claim they are a “Nation of People” no matter what country they live in so maybe we shouldn’t have members of a international foreign nation of people in our government?
    If that so called democracy just like ‘us’ Israel won’t let a member of another nations organization stay in Israel why should we let Jewish members of the World Jewish congress and ‘dual citizens’ stay in this country?
    Tell us again how Israel is a democracy just like the US. LOL
    Israel condemned for expelling Palestinian politicians
    Jonathan Cook, Foreign Correspondent
    Last Updated: June 29. 2010 12:19AM UAE / June 28. 2010 8:19PM GMT
    NAZARETH, ISRAEL // Israeli human-rights groups and Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, have condemned a decision by Israel to expel four Palestinian politicians from East Jerusalem by the end of this week.
    The Israeli government revoked their residency rights in Jerusalem a few weeks ago, after claiming they were

    Reply

  118. Sweetness says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 29 2010, 6:51PM – Link
    The truth is, Paul, it has almost nothing to do with it. Marcus and other nuts exaggerate Israel’s achievements. Carroll and her brand of idiots denigrate them.
    It’s just the usual pissing match.

    Reply

  119. Marcus says:

    The fact that someone with the name Steve Israel can get elected to Congress is a testament to the freedom and diversity that the USofA stands for across the world,(he couldn`t get past the municipal level in Canada)I`m impressed with America (for the first time in my adult life)
    Perhaps the supposed up-tick in anti-semitism is more a backlash against non-wasp actors generally;ie;a black president (who seems to surround himself with an inordinate number of jews,I distrust him just for that,they seem to be as a lighting rod for any rascist elements that might otherwise direct their animosity at him),a swelling latino population in particular,(with the jews being the prennial scapegoat) I`m thinking this because I can`t see any justification for the anti-Israel posts I read here,with one exception;I would like Israel to stop taking any money from the States and in return ,the US would stop endangering Israel by putting limits on it`s defense requirements;
    let Israel bomb the Scuds in lebanon
    let Israel sell high tech. stuff to China or Russia or being the loyal ally that it is,do a seperate deal on this issue whereby the states can have first refusal on anything it wants kept away from those two countries.
    stop pushing the 2 state idea and let Israel deal with the west bank like the internal problem it is.
    Stop trying to limit the municipal affairs of jerusalem (does anyone really want to see the arabs in control there,jerusalem doesn`t need a ghetto scene)
    let Israel build it`s own fighter aircraft.
    leave israel out of the NPT framework
    stop arming and training a arab army in the west bank that surely one day will be used against israel.
    support democratic movements in the M/E
    and let(maybe even help) israel bomb the illegal nuke sites in Iran
    A strong independent Israel and the promotion of representative democracy in arab countries is in the states best interest in so many ways.
    BTW; the ability of Israel to strike Iran is a great source of pride for jews the world-over.We`ve come a long way in just 60 years and that`s why israel has nothing to prove to the world (even if they didn`t invent the micro-chip)

    Reply

  120. nadine says:

    WE Du Bois, I’m not bigoted at all to Arabs. They do just fine as a rule once they get out of Mideast, which many of them do.
    It’s Arab politics I can’t stand. Corrupt and brutal, reactionary and vicious to minorities. A Strong Man on top maintaining control through terror. You can ask how and why, but it’s just a fact, true in both US allies like Egypt (see “On Khaled Said” http://www.sandmonkey.org/2010/06/13/on-khaled-said/ ) and US enemies like Syria.
    Now, it seems to be fashionable on the Left to pretend that since all these corrupt strongmen with their mukhabarats (secret police) aren’t white or western, they must really be okay, unless you can slam the US for being their ally.
    This is the part I reject. Unlike the Left, I believe in human rights for all humans, even the nonwhite nonwestern ones — which means human rights responsibilities for all governments, even the nonwhite nonwestern ones.

    Reply

  121. Sand says:

    And, again, if Israel even for a moment thinks its been given the going ahead — what seriously will be the consequences in the region? What will Israel be unleashing on our troops and our allies?
    — Would Conflict with Iran Destabilize Afghanistan? Daniel Luban [August 27, 2009]
    http://thefastertimes.com/diplomacy/2009/08/27/would-conflict-with-iran-destabilize-afghanistan/
    “…can the U.S. have its cake and eat it too? Can it pursue confrontation with Tehran while simultaneously reversing a

    Reply

  122. Sand says:

    RC.
    Yep. Israel and its supporters are really ‘champing at the bit’ to hit Iran. I can’t believe Gates would be stupid enough to let them — however, has he the power to stop them? Truly sickening.
    — U.S., Israel Differ on Iran Nuke Intel
    June 27, 2010 10:34 AM
    “…CIA Director Leon Panetta, in an EXCLUSIVE

    Reply

  123. rc says:

    @11:46. Interesting paragraph: no cost and an ‘off switch’ in Washington. Is this still current policy? I’ll wager what the first indigenous innovative modification will be once they hit Israeli-Palestinian soil!

    At present, U.S.-Israeli negotiations over a proposed sale to Israel of the F-35 continue with both sides in reported disagreement over Israeli desires to customize the aircraft to meet its own
    defense needs and the final cost of each plane. Israel would like to include its own electronic
    warfare and communication systems and have the ability to independently maintain the plane. In
    addition, estimated costs of each F-35 vary widely between $100 and $200 million apiece
    depending on the degree of agreed-upon Israeli customization. According to Israeli Air Force
    Major General Ido Nehushtan,

    Reply

  124. W.E.B. Du Bois says:

    @nadine
    Your tone sounds very bigoted and hateful towards all Muslims in general. So for starters, our common goals and values are that we are all people who want to get along and prosper. We’re not separated into a world of light and darkness as you seem to think of Christians and Jews on one side and Muslims on the other.
    Your broad brush painting has also lead to another over-generalization that there is a “new Islamist Turkey.” The fact that Erdogan has won two elections does not mean that Turkey is now an Islamist country. You don’t know what the future holds for Turkey and your comment has as much validity as saying that the US is an evangelical nation because we had two terms of Bush.
    Now if you put your hatred aside for a moment, the common goals would be that we both want to advance democracy, that we can agree on advancing human rights, free market economic reforms, fighting terrorism and we can try to agree on non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. Most people would have already understood this, but you do not due to your anger and whatever political agenda you harbor.
    You sound like Bush, “either you’re with us or against us.” I’m against you and all the other nationalist bigots like you. Who is this “we” you speak of that “hear, Obama encouraged Turkey and Brazil to do a side deal with Iran”? Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh’s audience? The conspiracy theory bigot crowd? I’m sorry, but I don’t prescribe to that “we” crowd of degenerates, nor do most people. It seems that you could not even stay on topic and discuss Turkey without losing your train of thought and reflexing into Obama-bashing.
    In either case, to people who are interested in the facts, Turkey and Iran are extremely different. Turkey is a secular capitalist democracy. Iran is a brutal theocracy with a very large state owned sector. Turkey sought integration with the West, Iran seeks nuclear weapons and has a combatitive relation with the West. The difference between the two countries are like night and day, but no difference is large enough for a conspiracy-theorist like yourself.

    Reply

  125. Carroll says:

    Everyone should use Sand’s link to the 2009 congressional report on US aid to Israel.
    Read it and you see that without US taxpayer money there would be no Israel..they are quite literally money sucking parasites.
    We could have build another entire America with the money we have given Israel.
    Want to really set Americans on fire about Israel?…spend some time and figure out just how much money the US and it’s citizens would/will lose when Israel implodes. We are talking trillions of US government and private investment dollars and US pensions funds diverted to Israeli bonds that will go up in smoke. The jewish state is the biggest con game and ponzi scheme ever run on the world.
    U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel
    Jeremy M. Sharp
    Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs
    December 4, 2009
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

    Reply

  126. Carroll says:

    Everyone should use Sand’s link to the 2009 congressional report on US aid to Israel.
    Read it and you see that without US taxpayer money there would be no Israel..they are quite literally money sucking parasites.
    We could have build another entire America with the money we have given Israel.
    Want to really set Americans on fire about Israel?…spend some time and figure out just how much money the US and it’s citizens would/will lose when Israel implodes. We are talking trillions of US government and private investment dollars and US pensions funds diverted to Israeli bonds that will go up in smoke. The jewish state is the biggest con game and ponzi scheme ever run on the world.
    U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel
    Jeremy M. Sharp
    Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs
    December 4, 2009
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

    Reply

  127. Sand says:

    Link for above:
    — House Dems, Citing Corruption, Block Reconstruction Funds For Afghanistan
    by Ryan Grim
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/house-dems-citing-corrupt_n_628126.html
    Also hats off to Helena Cobban’s post alerting us to more problems with our AIPAC embeds or, as I guess we now are calling them “burrowers.”
    — Obama ‘wilfully’ provoking Beijing?
    Posted by Helena Cobban
    June 29, 2010
    http://justworldnews.org/archives/004059.html

    Reply

  128. Sand says:

    tut tut… Paul: “…Could someone please explain to me the relevance of discussing Israel’s hi-tech achievements in the context of the Middle East crisis? Intel or not Intel… is that an argument for or against Arab inferiority and Israeli superiority as a culture?…”
    It’s all about Trade, Loans, and Bribes Paul. It has everything to do with the Middle East…
    My BS detector went off as soon as Rep. Nita Lowey — AIPAC’s very own ‘Appropriations’ Handmaiden started making a stink about the aid $$$ going to the Afghan wheelers & dealers. Then comes Gates piping up about downsizing on Military budget: WFT!
    Sen Levin (via The Hill article) then busts a gut over Gates announcement … leading to the obvious backroom deals.
    “…In his Kansas speech, Gates took aim at the secondary engine for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

    Reply

  129. Carroll says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 29 2010, 6:51PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The point to correcting marcus is that the zionist activist circulate the myth of Israeli accomplishments and aren’t picky about the truth.
    They have a whole list of….”what would you do? if Israel didn’t make this, that and the other.
    You couldn’t have a computer without Israel…you would die with such and such a illness if not for Isralei drugs and on and on.
    The problem is that 99% of their list isn’t true.
    Just google Israeli accomplishments and you will come across the ‘hasbara list’ they use to try and prove Israel’s superiority in everything.
    I’ve seen the ‘you wouldn’t have a computer except for Israeli computer chips’ about a thousand times on various blogs.
    Their other favorite claim is the genius of Israel’s drug development industry.
    While in reality, Telva, their drug manufacturer produces 99% generic drugs from expired patents or patents they have copied.
    Israeli companies have been the most sued of all drug companies for patent theft by US drug makers.
    But don’t take my word for it look it up.
    Claiming credit for others work and intelligence and creativity isn’t kosher.

    Reply

  130. Carroll says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 29 2010, 6:51PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The point to correcting marcus is that the zionist activist circulate the myth of Israeli accomplishments and aren’t picky about the truth.
    They have a whole list of….”what would you do? if Israel didn’t make this, that and the other.
    You couldn’t have a computer without Israel…you would die with such and such a illness if not for Isralei drugs and on and on.
    The problem is that 99% of their list isn’t true.
    Just google Israeli accomplishments and you will come across the ‘hasbara list’ they use to try and prove Israel’s superiority in everything.
    I’ve seen the ‘you wouldn’t have a computer except for Israeli computer chips’ about a thousand times on various blogs.
    Their other favorite claim is the genius of Israel’s drug development industry.
    While in reality, Telva, their drug manufacturer produces 99% generic drugs from expired patents or patents they have copied.
    Israeli companies have been the most sued of all drug companies for patent theft by US drug makers.
    But don’t take my word for it look it up.
    Claiming credit for others work and intelligence and creativity isn’t kosher.

    Reply

  131. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “As has often been noted, take away oil, and all the Arab states together export less than Finland does”
    Yeah, well, I think we can do quite well without Israel’s token little micro-chip that the Marcus abomination is blathering on about.
    But try going forward without Arab oil.
    Of course, The Jewish State is a major exporter of the implements of death. They’re quite good at that, aren’t they? They’re good at stealing the technology to develop their technologically advanced killing machines, too. And as an added bonus for them, they have a whole population of genetically inferior brown people to test them on. Right, Nadine?

    Reply

  132. nadine says:

    “I thought that Germany in the 1930’s proved once and for all
    that there is no necessary connection between technological
    achievements and cultural/moral superiority (or inferiority, for
    that sake).
    Am I wrong?” (Paul Norheim)
    I think you are, Paul, since Germany in the 1930s was in a unique cultural situation: a culture which had had the best institutions of higher learning in Europe before WWI, which the Nazis systematically wrecked by sacking all the administrators (& all the Jews & other political undesirables), and putting their goons in charge of them instead. However, Germany in the 1930s had, as it were, a huge savings account of past scientific achievement to draw on, even though the engine of that achievement was being effectively wrecked by the government.
    “The synergy effect of several factors – universities, financial
    opportunities, factories, small and big companies etc – made
    Silicon Valley possible. ”
    Besides those factors, you need free markets, individual liberty, and a culture that supports science and entrepreneurship. While achievement in a totalitarian society can excel in certain protected slots, such as nuclear development under Stalin, it’s more likely to run afoul of crazy political demands. Cf Lysenko and Soviet biology.
    “Could someone please explain to me the relevance of
    discussing Israel’s hi-tech achievements in the context of the
    Middle East crisis? Intel or not Intel… is that an argument for or
    against Arab inferiority and Israeli superiority as a culture?”
    Well, that depends if you value hi-tech achievements, if you think they are an important marker of achievement. That the political environment of the Arab states is not conducive to business development, much less hi-tech development, can be seen by checking the stats. As has often been noted, take away oil, and all the Arab states together export less than Finland does. High-trust societies with relatively low levels of corruption do better than low-trust societies with rampant corruption.

    Reply

  133. David says:

    Thanks, samuelburke, for posting the Andrew Bacevich commentary.

    Reply

  134. JohnH says:

    I think marcus was trying to say the he finally found a single reason to assert that Israel is a strategic asset to the United States, not a burden.
    Pretty thin gruel…

    Reply

  135. Paul Norheim says:

    Could someone please explain to me the relevance of
    discussing Israel’s hi-tech achievements in the context of the
    Middle East crisis? Intel or not Intel… is that an argument for or
    against Arab inferiority and Israeli superiority as a culture?
    The synergy effect of several factors – universities, financial
    opportunities, factories, small and big companies etc – made
    Silicon Valley possible. The same could be said for Germany in
    the late 1930’s, Florence in the 13th century, etc. etc. Does
    that imply that the German culture was superior to France or
    England in 1939?
    What is the exact meaning of “superior” in such a context?
    Does it imply moral superiority? Or just that their high-tech
    achievements were…eh…high-tech; the same high-tech
    achievements that they employed to declare war against the
    whole world, and to organize and administer their highly
    effective concentration camps?
    Yeah, California (with a little help from China) can create
    iPhones; Israel can make Intel chips, and Germany made the
    Mercedes car, the Leica camera, wonderful musical
    instruments, and also provided the brain power to make the
    nuclear bomb.
    So what?
    I thought that Germany in the 1930’s proved once and for all
    that there is no necessary connection between technological
    achievements and cultural/moral superiority (or inferiority, for
    that sake).
    Am I wrong?

    Reply

  136. JohnH says:

    The Israeli microchip “industry” probably has more to do with Intel CEO Andrew Grove’s religion than anything else.
    http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/17239/intel-founder-discusses-survivor-background-in-memoir/
    Generally microprocessor plants are sited where there is abundant water, so that toxic chemicals used in the manufacturing process can be diluted enough to meet environmental standards.
    I wonder how much Palestinian water is consumed everyday to support Intel’s inappropriate siting in water starved Israel?
    [Guess I won’t be buying Intel products any time soon.]

    Reply

  137. Carroll says:

    “It was`nt very long ago that carroll and others were posting regularly that Iran didn`t want a nuke arsenal at all (again it was the jews telling lies) Now it`s, yeah, well ok. maybe they want NUKES, but they would NEVER actually use them. Yeah Right. Just more Lies.”
    How old are you? You sound a little high school runt ranting away in his mom’s basement.
    I never said Iran didn’t want to develop nukes I in fact said Iran does have the right to develop nukes as long as Israel and other countries are allowed to have nukes.
    In fact the biggest guarentee that Israel would never use it’s nukes is for Iran to also have nuclear weapons.

    Reply

  138. Carroll says:

    You know beside hating the Arabs and Palestines Israel just plain can’t stand the intellectual and business competition of smart and educated Palestines.
    Barred from Jerusalem for crime of being Palestinian
    Engineer’s battle to overturn loss of residency highlights plight of thousands
    By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
    Tuesday, 29 June 2010
    Samir Abu-Khalaf holds a photograph of his son Murad, whose East Jerusalem residency was revoked by Israeli authorities
    To say that Palestinian Murad Al-Khalaf’s roots are in Jerusalem is a serious understatement. His family lived in the Baka district of West Jerusalem until they were forced to leave in the war of 1948. They have since lived

    Reply

  139. Marcus says:

    Americas influence in the M/E is being eroded because of it`s lukewarm defence of allies (historic and potential new ones)All of Americas M/E allies have said so.,again carroll and others assert an inversion of reality,whereby friendly nations (israel for example) are the problem and enemies ,well their not really enemies,it just the jews saying they are.
    By not calling islamic terrorism by name,the US is empowering the islamic terrorists to sail along under the radar.
    By not allowing Israel to bomb the Scuds Syria moved to Lebanon,it empowers Hizzbulla.
    By not using force against Tehran`s nuke sites,israel , eygpt,jordan,saudi arabia the Gulf states and the whole world is threatened.
    By cosying-up to assad jr., Lebanon is lost.
    By not backing the iranian greens or any other democratic parties ,democracy is lost everywhere,including Iraq and Afghanistan
    By giving Hamas 400million, the PA is weakened.
    it is only by strengthing the American commitment to Israel that the I/P conflict could be resolved and democratic movements everywhere could have a chance at success.
    Carroll claims that no one thinks that a nuclear armed Iran is a danger to anyone !?!? that it is just jews lying again (for their own amusement perhaps))about a supposed,imaginary,threat.
    She is the same people,who, prior to WW2 said EXACTLY the same thing about Hitler, (nothing to worry about with hitler,its just the jews trying to start a war) History may not repeat itself,but the same character types keep coming back.
    The REALITY of course is very different. 4 UN resolutions, increasing statements of concern and actual war preperations by at least 6 countries proves how wrong she is.
    Does anyone believe that Saudi Arabia is controlled by Jews or the US (note Obamas bowing )? So why are they allowing Israel to base military supplies there for a potential (long overdue)attack on iran.
    It was`nt very long ago that carroll and others were posting regularly that Iran didn`t want a nuke arsenal at all (again it was the jews telling lies) Now it`s, yeah, well ok. maybe they want NUKES, but they would NEVER actually use them. Yeah Right. Just more Lies.

    Reply

  140. Carroll says:

    Oh gawd, not the Israel micro chip myth again!
    Israel doesn’t have a micro chip industry, Israel has two plants there that are owned by Intell and got them by the US giving a 6 million dollar grant to Israel for Israel to give to Intell as a sweetner, the 6 million being 10% of the cost of the 6 billion Intell spent building a plant there.
    Israel has micro chip industry courtesy, as usual, of the US inducing companies to do favors for Israel. The announcement at the time was that it would ‘create employment’ for Israelis.
    There isn’t even room to list all the countries that make and export micro chips from
    Costa Rica, all over Asia, to even Mexico.,,almost every country in the world except for probably Haiti makes and exports computer chips
    And this will be a blow to Marcus but the actual germ of the whole computer and micro chip revolution was started by a German company Siemens and then went thru many hands and inventors including Texas Instruments until an Irish guy, Robert Joyce and a British guy, Jack Kilby created and patented the modern micro chip and created the Intell corp…short for ‘integrated circuitry”.
    If we all had a quarter for every thing the Israelis claim they invented we could buy Steve his own TV station.

    Reply

  141. Marcus says:

    “a miracle that could have been outsourced anywhere” perhaps,but it`s those other miracles (the old ones) that REALLY matter to so many people.
    You could try hitchens approach,or maybe the islamist one (where it was moslems who wrote the bible)or Obamas ridicule(cluthing bibles) but in the meantime,,it was the jews who wrote the bible and died in the Colliseum for doing so.
    It`s simply preposterous to assert that Turkey is Americas greatest,natural,historic ally over Israel.

    Reply

  142. JohnH says:

    A single Israeli microchip! Woo-hoo! A miracle that could have been outsourced anywhere!
    But thanks for the heads up, marcus. That single Israeli microchip was probably put there at the behest of Mossad…

    Reply

  143. Marcus says:

    To those of you wondering what Israel has ever done for you….look inside the computer your using…if it doesn`t say MADE IN ISRAEL on your microchip, look a little closer.

    Reply

  144. Marcus says:

    The first half of mearsheimer`s ( that is a suspiciously jewish sounding name-but he is actually german,I think its important that the ethnic identity of posters here is known ,not only the jewish contributors) article seems to be an insult that Israel has not had a clear-cut victory since the 1967 war. He claims that israel`s “failures” have left it`s adversaries intact.
    The obvious solution would then be to leave them not intact. I couldn`t agree more.
    The second half of the article concentrates on israel not being able to maintain an aparthied state.
    The obvious solution then would be, to not stand in the way of any arab who wants to emigrate to greener pastures.
    As for Turkey; except for taking 26billion in foriegn aid,what has it ever done for America ?

    Reply

  145. samuelburke says:

    Andrew Bacevich says it so well, as always he takes the high
    road.
    Endless war, a recipe for four-star arrogance
    By Andrew J. Bacevich
    Sunday, June 27, 2010; B01
    Long wars are antithetical to democracy. Protracted conflict
    introduces toxins that inexorably corrode the values of popular
    government. Not least among those values is a code of military
    conduct that honors the principle of civilian control while
    keeping the officer corps free from the taint of politics. Events of
    the past week — notably the Rolling Stone profile that led to
    Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal’s dismissal — hint at the toll that
    nearly a decade of continuous conflict has exacted on the U.S.
    armed forces. The fate of any one general qualifies as small beer:
    Wearing four stars does not signify indispensability. But
    indications that the military’s professional ethic is eroding,
    evident in the disrespect for senior civilians expressed by
    McChrystal and his inner circle, should set off alarms.
    Earlier generations of American leaders, military as well as
    civilian, instinctively understood the danger posed by long wars.
    “A democracy cannot fight a Seven Years War,” Gen. George C.
    Marshall once remarked. The people who provided the lifeblood
    of the citizen army raised to wage World War II had plenty of
    determination but limited patience. They wanted victory won and
    normalcy restored.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
    dyn/content/article/2010/06/25/AR2010062502160_pf.html

    Reply

  146. JohnH says:

    Nadine sinks to a new low–if you state the obvious, which Mearsheimer does, then you’re antisemitic! In her worldview, you can only be a scholar if you’re an avowed Jewish supremacist.
    So, Nadine, have fun helping Israel self destruct!

    Reply

  147. DonS says:

    corrected link of 6:32 post on Turkey banning Israeli military overflight:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/28/turkey-bans-israeli-military-flight-airspace-gaza-flotilla

    Reply

  148. kotzabasis says:

    Ben Katcher, what a ludicrous title! Are you in the process of re-writing history and supplanting America’s best ally, Israel, that stands shoulder to shoulder with the U.S fighting its greatest enemy, Islamic fanaticism, with Turkey, that has turned into the political amanuensis of Iran?

    Reply

  149. Dirk says:

    “You’re right, ArasA, I mistyped. Turkey and Azerbaijan are maintaining a joint blockade of Armenia.
    I should note that Turkey is not in a state of war with Armenia, so the blockade does not conform to the law of the sea regarding blockades, but it’s there nonetheless.” (nadine projects her hysteria)
    WTF are you talking about. First you state that Turkey is blockading Azerbaijan, a Shiite Turkish people strongly allied with Turkey; then you compound it by diverting to Armenia. Maybe you should check a map, you dill pickle, Armenia doesn’t even have a coast.
    “so the blockade does not conform to the law of the sea regarding blockades” (nadine’s further hysteria)
    While I’ve never read the Law of the Sea, a blockade is an act of war and therefore unlikely to be enumerated in a Law of the Sea.

    Reply

  150. Tony C. says:

    The above, blinding contrast between Mearsheimer’s
    concise, clear and cogent analysis, and Nadine’s pathetic,
    substance-free, ad hominem dismissal of it, neatly sums up
    the seriousness and weight of their respective positions.

    Reply

  151. nadine says:

    “There is no blockade of Azerbaijan or
    whatsoever. ” (ArasA)
    You’re right, ArasA, I mistyped. Turkey and Azerbaijan are maintaining a joint blockade of Armenia.
    I should note that Turkey is not in a state of war with Armenia, so the blockade does not conform to the law of the sea regarding blockades, but it’s there nonetheless.
    Of course the world doesn’t give a flying f– about the Armenians or the blockade of Armenia.
    Some Israelis are talking about trying to run the blockade to return the favor. They better not; Turkey would sink the ships and nobody would care.

    Reply

  152. nadine says:

    Whatever claims Mearshimer ever had to scholarship have been forfeited. Now he sounds as openly anti-Semitic and conspiratorial as the Carroll, which is why she is quoting him. He is a walking illustration of the death spiral of rationality that occurs when somebody turns away from reason and starts blaming world’s ills on a vast unseen conspiracy by the Jews.
    The Israeli problem he describes is a self-fulfilling prophecy that he worked hard to help generate: make the US constrain Israel, demand concessions, restraint, withdrawals, thus weakening Israeli’s deterrence and emboldening Israel’s enemies. Promise diplomatic support for these concessions, which not only is never given, the concessions bring only more demands and more hostility, encouraging Israel’s enemies that they need never compromise, only wait. Then claim that because Israel is no longer an effective fighting force, it is an albatross that should be thrown to the wolves.
    I hope Mearshimer publishes his screed far and wide. I hope everybody sees what the heart and soul of Democratic foreign policy has become.
    The American people will have something to say about this. Not some fictional “Lobby”. But the voters.

    Reply

  153. Carroll says:

    August 1 2010 Issue
    Copyright

    Reply

  154. JohnH says:

    Erdogan on Charlie Rose tonight.
    Rose has talked to Erdogan, Ahmadinejad, and Assad in the last two months. Sounds like a one man diplomatic mission to me.
    To Nadine, Rose must be antisemitic for having the audacity to conduct reasonable interviews with people who choose not to roll over and have their bellies rubbed by the Israeli Master.

    Reply

  155. nadine says:

    “Don’t you know the proper way to welcome armed commandos onto a ship is to put out poo-poo trays and distribute leis? I think I read this in Emily Post…”
    Damn straight if you are running a naval blockade and don’t want to be shot.
    The next ship that tries it may be sunk outright; Israel announced they would regard the next flotilla as an act of war. Iran thought better of sending ships and backed down. Always remember Lenin’s words: “Probe with a bayonet. If you meet steel, retreat. If you meet mush, advance.” That’s how these guys operate.
    Obama is mush personified. Mush to the nth degree. I’m sure Erdogan and Ahmedinejad can’t believe their luck. They must take it as a sign straight from Allah. I have heard repeatedly that believing ‘Twelvers’ regard Barack Hussein Obama as a sign from Imam Hussein to the faithful. Can’t verify that, but it fits with how they think.

    Reply

  156. Carroll says:

    On the other hand, no matter what one thinks of Israel’s blockade of Gaza, Turkey’s over-the-top response to the Flotilla incident is indicative of a worrying anti-Israel populism that is unhealthy for Turkey and may permanently jeopardize Ankara’s capacity to serve as a mediator between Israel and its enemies with real strategic consequences for both Turkey and the United States.
    — Ben Katcher”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Turkey was over the top?…LOL elect me US Prez and the next time Israel kills some civilians I’ll show you over the top..way, way over…as in it’s totally over.
    Usually you aren’t so foolish in your statements.
    Looks like you are now suffering from fatal group think tankery.
    Too many of you in the thinkery world write as if
    world policy actually should revolve around Israel..perhaps because you have given up hope that the US superpower is ever going to shed this parasite on the donkeys ass.
    Why should Turkey acquiesce to the US and Israel?
    Why should Turkey and US have to suffer “strategic consequences’ because Isreal wants to nuke Iran so they can remain “the” nuclear power in the ME?
    And the only thing worrying about the anti Israel sentiment around the world is how long it’s going to take for it to reach the point where someone shuts the little midget nazis down.

    Reply

  157. Maw of America says:

    Interesting comment at 7:46 PM:
    “David, I suggest you look at the video of the Israelis boarding the Mavi Marmara. They rappelled down to a bunch of 30 guys standing around (obviously not being fired upon) and were immediately set upon with knives and iron bars. It’s on video. You are grossly mistaken about the circumstances of the “Israeli attack”.” (Nadine)
    Don’t you know the proper way to welcome armed commandos onto a ship is to put out poo-poo trays and distribute leis? I think I read this in Emily Post…

    Reply

  158. ArasA says:

    “Turkey maintains an internationally recognized
    blockade of Azerbaijan” (Nadine)
    What ??? There is no blockade of Azerbaijan or
    whatsoever. Azerbaijan is a little brother state of
    Turkey. Please check your facts before making
    statements and stop bashing Turkey.
    Ben, well written article, but I do not think
    Turkey’s response was over the top to the flotilla
    massacre. Every other country would do the same and
    thats why whole world outraged against Israel.

    Reply

  159. PissedOffAmerican says:

    To call Turkey’s reaction to Israel’s criminal attack on these ships “over the top” really cements my opinion of Katcher. Too bad Obama and Congress don’t have the balls or the integrity to go “over the top” towards Israel.
    When Katcher did a full essay on the rift between Israel and Turkey when it first began to fester, he ommitted mention of Turkey’s stance on the Goldstone Report. In so doing, he offered one of the most irresponsible and disingenuous essays I have ever seen offered here.
    Katcher is an essayist with an unwritten agenda. In other words, a propagandist.

    Reply

  160. JohnH says:

    I love it when Nadine goes on a diatribe! It always means that somebody must be standing up to Israel’s “freedom to act” (conduct pogroms of its neighbors). According to Nadine, Turkey is run by “Islamists,”–people who criticize Israel’s wanton killing of civilians in Gaza and who don’t approve of letting Simon Perez filibuster his way around the issue). And according to Nadine, Turkey is antisemitic because of some soap opera, blah, blah, blah.
    Well, we’re all aware of the Joe McCarthy stle character assassinations perpetrated by AIPAC and other Jewish supremacist groups, when anyone in an official position murmurs the least criticism of Israeli, forget about mentioning the good stuff, like war crimes.
    So the more strident Nadine’s criticism of Turkey, the more we now that Turkey is becoming an effective voice against Israel’s crimes against humanity.
    Good for Erdogan!

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  161. nadine says:

    “Right now, Barack Obama looks like a very small-minded “pragmatist”, whose inability to understand the global times in which he lives and articulate a responsive strategic vision of his own has turned him into a virtual acolyte of George Bush” (Dan Kervick)
    It seems to me that Obama has articulated his vision quite well: a world in which no country can tell another what to do. A world in which America stops using more than its share of energy and becomes poorer. A world in which America is no longer the global cop, speaks soothingly and defers to every thug regime in sight, especially Muslim ones, rather than confront any of them. A world with America in retreat and out of the superpower business, in other words.
    So even Alistair Crooke, who likes this result, notices that the international system is now “dysfunctional” and in danger of blowing up? What was he expecting to happen?

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  162. nadine says:

    DonS, aren’t you outraged for the poor, poor Azerbaijanis?

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  163. Neo Controll says:

    “Ben Katcher is just slowly, slowly catching up to the truth about Erdogan that has long been visible to sharper (or perhaps less ideologically blinded) observers.”
    It’s not official until Wig Wag sings.

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  164. DonS says:

    “Everybody who is travelling Turkey these days is saying that for the first time ever, people who oppose Erdogan are talking in whispers, not for attribution, afraid of government reprisals.”
    From her handlers fax to your ears . . . words you can take to the bank, at least until the FDIC forecloses.

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  165. DonS says:

    “Turkey maintains an internationally recognized blockade of Azerbaijan”
    Perhaps that is why Israel is massing their aircraft in Azerbaijan for the expected attact on Iran.3
    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread586685/pg1

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  166. nadine says:

    David, I suggest you look at the video of the Israelis boarding the Mavi Marmara. They rappelled down to a bunch of 30 guys standing around (obviously not being fired upon) and were immediately set upon with knives and iron bars. It’s on video. You are grossly mistaken about the circumstances of the “Israeli attack”.

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  167. nadine says:

    “Where the moderate and democratic Islamists in Turkey are concerned, one of our common goals is a commitment to the free exercise of religion” (Dan Kervick)
    Ask the Turkish Jews how free their religion is, after Turkish TV showed “The Valley of the Wolves” a viciously anti-Semitic work.
    Islamists free up their version of Islam, nobody else’s, and certainly not other religions.
    Is it “moderate” to claim that there is no Islamic terrorism and that no genocide has happened in the Sudan because Muslims don’t commit genocide? (And naturally, no genocide ever happened in Turkey) Is it “moderate” to jail lots of officers on trumped up charges, and shut down the opposition press?
    Everybody who is travelling Turkey these days is saying that for the first time ever, people who oppose Erdogan are talking in whispers, not for attribution, afraid of government reprisals.
    What Erdogan was really good at, was LOOKING moderate for a long time while he prepared his ground. But the aim of every Islamist is to impose Sharia law, by definition. That is neither a moderate nor a democratic aim.
    Ben Katcher is just slowly, slowly catching up to the truth about Erdogan that has long been visible to sharper (or perhaps less ideologically blinded) observers.

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  168. David says:

    Thanks for that link, John.
    Ben, why do you say “anti-Israel populism”? For me the issue is humanitarian outrage, and because the United States is apparently powerless to call Likud’s hand, someone else had to do it. I cannot help thinking back to the robust civil rights actions of my college days, and how they were greeted as unacceptable agitation. What is unacceptable is not what Turkey did. It is what Israel is doing. JStreet is actually Israel’s best friend in America, if one genuinely cares about a safe, sane, just Israel.
    I accept the fact that we cannot undo the past. I do not accept the idea that we cannot move forward toward a more humane, more just political dynamic regarding Israel and Palestine.
    I also adamantly reject the idea that this is some sort of centuries-old, intractable conflict. In the context of violence and injustice, old animosities can certainly re-emerge. But they are consequences, not causes. And mostly they are exploited by people in power who see some sort of short-term benefit from fanning conflict and hatred, people who should burn in hell. And I am hard pressed to excuse a country that invaded another country on trumped up grounds under the rubric of “pre-emptive war.”
    Damn, I am even angrier than I realized at everyone who incites, inflicts, or chooses violence, and that certainly includes Israel’s attack on the flotilla. It was neither justified nor even remotely a civilized response. And it was much more than an incident. Israel has only itself to blame for any resulting anti-Israel populism. And then there is the inescapable fact that violence begets violence. You’d think someone influential would figure that out.
    Before I forget, I think you put together an excellent post.

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  169. Dan Kervick says:

    People should also read Alistair Crooke’s piece in Foreign Policy, which is unsparing in its depiction of a reactionary United States, unable to understand and adapt to fundamental global change, and recapitulating the mistakes of great powers of the past.
    http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/28/iran_and_the_end_of_deference
    Right now, Barack Obama looks like a very small-minded “pragmatist”, whose inability to understand the global times in which he lives and articulate a responsive strategic vision of his own has turned him into a virtual acolyte of George Bush. In the Middle East, his administration seems dedicated to the pursuit of the Bush strategic agenda, with only minor tactical adjustments.

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  170. nadine says:

    “What do you think would have been the reaction in Israel and Washington if Turkey would have attacked and taken over an Israeli ship on international waters, killing 9 Israeli citizens?” (Raimo Kangasniemi)
    Israel maintains an internationally recognized blockade of Gaza. Turkey maintains an internationally recognized blockade of Azerbaijan. If an Israeli ship had tried to run the blockade of Azerbaijan, and 9 Israelis had been killed in the act of stabbing and beating Turkish commandos sent to maintain the blockade, the world’s reaction would have been fury — against Israel.
    Next question?

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  171. Dan Kervick says:

    “So what are our “common goals and values” with Islamists?”
    Where the moderate and democratic Islamists in Turkey are concerned, one of our common goals is a commitment to the free exercise of religion, a deeply American principle that stands in contrast to the militant French-style secularism of the Kemalist tradition.

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  172. DonS says:

    “Turkey Bans Israeli Military Flight . . .”
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2010/06/is_turkey_still/#commentshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10432903.stm
    I wonder if that’s over the top too? What must the other NATO members be thinking?

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  173. pangloss says:

    I agree with Kangasniemi, what do you mean by over the top
    response. Ben do you, like the the Congress & Obama, also serve
    at the pleasure of Israeli lobby?

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  174. JohnH says:

    The key issue here is whether the US will tolerate Turkey’s pursuing its own national interests–developing commercial relations and a trade union with its neighbors.
    Or will Washington insist Turkey’s supporting Israel’s “total problems with its neighbors” policy and try to suppress Turkey’s development? Turkey is not likely to accede to restrictions its own market opportunities, so an Israel-centric approach is doomed to conflict and failure.
    The ball is in Washington’s court. If the US chooses not to be a constructive force in the region, Turkey will choose an increasingly independent foreign policy.

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  175. Raimo Kangasniemi says:

    “On the other hand, no matter what one thinks of Israel’s blockade of Gaza, Turkey’s over-the-top response to the Flotilla incident is indicative of a worrying anti-Israel populism that is unhealthy for Turkey and may permanently jeopardize Ankara’s capacity to serve as a mediator between Israel and its enemies with real strategic consequences for both Turkey and the United States.”
    Turkey’s reaction is “over-the-top”? What do you think would have been the reaction in Israel and Washington if Turkey would have attacked and taken over an Israeli ship on international waters, killing 9 Israeli citizens?
    What comes to Turkey acting as a mediator, what’s the point?
    US hasn’t achieved anything positive at all in it’s “mediator” role in the Middle East since Carter and currently Israel is just playing time, not wanting anything constructive to be achieved, not in negotiations lead by USA and not through any mediating action on the part of Turkey and USA will not be satisfied with anything that Turkey could achieve in a mediator role, like Iran negotiations show.
    Turkey and US could mediate until the Sun becomes a red giant, but nothing would come out of it based on their track record.

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  176. nadine says:

    “Turkish policies can complement the United States’ if framed within a broader and longer-term perspective of the transatlantic alliance that shares common goals and values even if the short-term means differ.”
    So what are our “common goals and values” with Islamists? Erdogan’s common goals and values with Iran are obvious, and Erdogan has been celebrating them quite openly. In this light, Erdogan’s support of Hezbullah and Hamas make perfect sense. But Mr. Katcher is going to have to explain what common goals and values the US has with this new Islamist Turkey.
    “This is somewhat ironic given that Turkey’s diplomatic engagement with Tehran was supported by Washington. The United States has more to gain from Turkey if it is trusted in Tehran and can serve as an interlocutor”
    That rather depends on Turkey’s position in the mix, now doesn’t it? If Turkey shares Iran’s revolutionary Islamist strategic goals, all the US is doing is aiding the enemy camp, not negotiating with it. If, as we hear, Obama encouraged Turkey and Brazil to do a side deal with Iran, then scolded them after they did it, it only reinforces the general impression that foreign policy is being handled by rank amateurs in this administration.

    Reply

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