Hillary Clinton Supports Resolution Prohibiting Funding for Military Action Against Iran

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There is breaking news via Taylor Marsh that Hillary Clinton will support Senator Webb’s Resolution demanding that the President seek Congressional approval before any military action against Iran and prohibiting the use of funds for military operations in Iran.
This is significant news because while Hillary Clinton did support the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution calling for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard to be formally labeled a terrorist organization — and thus providing the President with a potential back door Congressional authorization for yet another war in the Middle East — her opposition to White House military action against Iran without Congress’s sign off cuts a different and healthy direction.
It is essential that the Senate pass a resolution that claws back its Congressional prerogatives to declare war (or not) from the White House and not allow the Executive Branch the ability to further expand the current horrific mess in the Middle East.
Hillary Clinton needs to apply her ascending political weight to the passage of the Webb resolution. It is not enough to just support a resolution and watch it languish. This is a measure that needs to be passed and sent to the White House to rob legitimacy from any conflict Cheney and his followers might engineer in the waning days of this administration.
As Clinton works to pass the Webb resolution, she needs to articulate what mix of incentives and disincentives should be on the table in the kind of direct US-Iran negotiations she has called for.
Thus far, George Bush is the executive force in these narratives — while Senators just vote one way or another without real responsibility for outcomes.
Hillary Clinton needs to perform like an executive and call together her team to secure Webb’s Resolution as a benchmark of her abilities — and then needs to put on the table for Americans and Iranians to see a policy track that differs from the course the Bush and Ahmadinejad factions have set us on.
— Steve Clemons

Comments

70 comments on “Hillary Clinton Supports Resolution Prohibiting Funding for Military Action Against Iran

  1. Bayerischer Wald says:

    ! You make an attractive case, but one can see holes in it.
    The fact is, the majority of the American public has rejected the Kool-Aid. And it makes no difference.
    Most people reject the idea that the only thing that counts in politics is who wins the game. They are looking for politicians who also have some interest in actual governance. And it makes no difference.
    There is a growing groundswell of ordinary people taking to the Internet — in places like this, and others — and expressing their disgust with the criminals in the Republican party and the wimps/enablers in the Democratic leadership. And it makes no difference.
    We hear nothing about this in the media. Newspapers don’t cover it — only in spots. They keep repeating the bullshit that got Bush elected in the first place, without any recognition how badly Bush has damaged our country. Certainly broadcast media continues to be dominated by nut jobs like Limbaugh and O’Reilly, who are ignored by any rational person, but still seem to prove that no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
    Speaking up isn’t enough. We do speak up, and get drowned out by the wingnuts and corporate stooges.
    Opting out certainly isn’t enough. That leaves the field to the fascists, and that can’t be right.
    Voting Democratic seems to not be enough, as the news proves every day. It seems that politicians make a choice when they join the profession: Republicans choose balls; Democrats choose hearts. No one gets both, and no one gets brains.
    The system is fixed, when the real conflict is not between one group of people and another, but rather between people as a whole and corporate interests. And no one notices.
    So, guy, stories about Star Wars are uplifting, and all; but this is Washington, not the real world. What can we really do?

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  2. Kathleen says:

    On the subject of possible false flag ops to instigate war with Iran, Citizens for Legitimate Gov’t is reporting the following about the airmen involved in the transportation of nuclear warheads…
    Anyone Seriously Investigating This?
    Submitted by davidswanson on Mon, 2007-10-08 16:08. Media
    Mystery surrounds deaths of Minot airmen
    By PressTV
    Six members of the US Air Force who were involved in the Minot AFB incident, have died mysteriously, an anti-Bush activist group says.
    The incident happened when a B-52 bomber was “mistakenly” loaded with six nuclear warheads and flown for more than three hours across several states, prompting an Air Force investigation and the firing of one commander.
    The plane was carrying Advanced Cruise Missiles from Minot Air Force Base, N.D, to Barksdale Air Force Base on August 30.
    The Air Combat Command has ordered a command-wide stand down on September 14 to review procedures, officials said.
    The missiles, which are being decommissioned, were mounted onto pylons on the bomber’s wings and it is unclear why the warheads had not been removed beforehand.
    In addition to the munitions squadron commander who was relieved of his duties, crews involved in the incident, including ground crew workers had been temporarily decertified for handling munitions.
    The activist group Citizens for Legitimate Government said the six members of the US Air Force who were directly involved as loaders or as pilots, were killed within 7 days in ‘accidents’.
    The victims include Airman First Class Todd Blue, 20, who died while on leave in Virginia. A statement by the military confirmed his death but did not say how he died.
    In another accident, a married couple from Barksdale Air Force Base were killed in the 5100 block of Shreveport-Blanchard Highway. The two were riding a 2007 Harley-Davidson motorcycle, with the husband driving and the wife the passenger, police said.
    “They were traveling behind a northbound Pontiac Aztec driven by Erica Jerry, 35, of Shreveport,” the county sheriff said. “Jerry initiated a left turn into a business parking lot at the same time the man driving the motorcycle attempted to pass her van on the left in a no passing zone. They collided.”
    Adam Barrs, a 20-year-old airman from Minot Air Force Base was killed in a crash on the outskirts of the city.
    First Lt. Weston Kissel, 28, a Minot Air Force Base bomber pilot, was killed in a motorcycle crash in Tennessee, the military officials say.
    Police found the body of a missing Air Force captain John Frueh near Badger Peak in northeast Skamania County, Washington.
    The Activist group says the mysterious deaths of the air force members could indicate to a conspiracy to cover up the truth about the Minot Air Base incident.

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  3. Kathleen says:

    Here’s a nitty-gritty reality check on War with Iran, Italian style…
    peacepalestine
    There will always be a Palestine
    Friday, October 5, 2007
    Fabio Mini (an Italian General) – “Operation Swarm”- War without End against Iran
    Writing for Italy’s l’Espresso, Italian General Fabio Mini has understood and explained the dangerous mechanisms of gaining consensus to wage war against “Enemies”, which are variable and flexible according to the interests of hegemonic power. This enlightening article explains the manner in which War against Iran has been promoted in the West as well as the operative elements that will bring it about. A MUST READ! Translated from Italian by Diego Traversa and revised by Mary Rizzo for Tlaxcala and peacepalestine. (Also on peacepalestine by Fabio Mini: Even Escape is an Art, about the impossible disengagement from Iraq.
    Anyone who thought that the green light for the Israeli-American attack against Iran would come from the American Congress, was wrong. Equally wrong were those who thought that a president like Bush, so frustrated by the Iraqi chaos, the Afghan deadlock and the industrial lobbies’ pressures, would wind up making the decision on his own. The attack against Iran will take place thanks to the newly-appointed French Foreign Minister Kouchner. In these years of threats and counter-threats, of pretexts to make war, the only “revealing” words have been those from the laconic phrase “we must prepare ourselves for the worst.” Many have taken these words as a slip of the lip, others have regarded them as a bad luck-dispelling provocation, others as an instigation and still others as a submission to an ineluctable event. It could be that the sentence contains all of this, but the profound essence of Kouchner’s words is different.
    Strange connections and affinities have come into being in these last 15 years of worldwide military interventions of different kinds. Armies have been integrated with private soldiers, visionaries with mercenaries, business with ideology, and truth has gotten so imbued with lies that the propagandaÂ’s logic canÂ’t account for either. And one of the most unusual connections is the one that has been established between military staff, humanitarian workers and foreign policy, to such an extent that each of the three components can pass itself off as the other two. The main cement of this union is the emergency concept. Foreign politics has lost its nature of continuity in the relations between states and in the sphere of international organizations. It has been devoting itself for a while to running emergency relations, meaning extemporaneous relations connected to temporary and changeable interests or positions that are transitory and changeable to variable geometries.
    At the end of the day, emergency politics is the only kind that allows a limited and selective commitment. Moreover, it can be done or undone at oneÂ’s will, since the dimension of the emergency can be manipulated or interpreted. Following the same manner of reasoning, the armies of these last 15 years have exclusively devoted themselves to emergency situations, preferably abroad and for so-called humanitarian reasons, in order to guarantee themselves consensus and support. There are no longer any armies able to defend their own territories or to provide defence in case of war. ItÂ’s increasingly difficult to find a state threatened with war by another state and today all the worldÂ’s armies rely on a minimum 12-month notice allowing them to mobilise the resources for national defence. Therefore, they have become specialized in emergency in the respect of both the kind and the timing of the interventions.
    When Kouchner candidly states that we “must prepare ourselves for the worst” he simply interprets a philosophy which doesn’t have as its objective the searching for the best, less traumatic solution, but which instead calls on the political class to manage the emergency, the military means and the humanitarian organizations which have by now become inseparable. It’s also about the recognition of the political class’s incapacity itself to think of and find enduring solutions. It is about the military instruments and their incapacity in managing conflict situations until their complete stabilization, and the incapacity of the humanitarian organizations in settling the problems of the people in more long-term perspective than the one offered by emergency. Finally, Kouchner also admits that the summation of these incapacities leads inevitably to war.
    Then, war it will be.
    It’s obvious that, under these conditions, some exaggerations are required in order to assure the accomplishment of the emergency and the intervention of the various components: something has to happen: ­what the observers call the “trigger”­ so that it may provoke the political emergency, there has to be an immediate danger for the security of everyone and a humanitarian catastrophe has to be in sight (the bigger, the better). There has to be, in other words, a manageable apparatus capable of “inventing” the emergency, as well inventing its conclusion that will allow disengagement and the end of the commitment whether or not there has been any solution of these problems. The attack against Iran falls perfectly within this scenario and, looking at it carefully, it’s by now a nearly completed picture.
    There are multiple pretexts available for the attack. The idea that Iran intends upon developing a nuclear bomb and to destroy Israel is by now widely recognized by everyone. WhatÂ’s missing are confirmations and evidence beyond poor empty boasting, but in the past we have witnessed terroristic boasting that has at any rate, come about and nobody is willing to run the risk of underestimating it, not even for truthÂ’s sake. An Iranian or Iranian-supported attack against the American forces in Iraq, this too without a scrap of proof, has started to persuade even the most sceptical people. Sooner or later, after much speaking about it and evoking it, it will be taken as an invitation or a challenge and it will really be carried out. The support Iran gives to Hamas and Hezbollah makes Teheran extremely vulnerable. An excess or mistake by one of these formations is sufficient to set off an immediate military intervention.
    The foreign policy of the most major nations, Europe included, is by now used to the idea that a military intervention is able to bring Iran back to the positions it was in 20 years ago. Moreover, whatÂ’s starting to be accepted is the idea that the purpose isnÂ’t only that of preventing a nuclear power from rising but also that of terminating the country as a regional player which embodies oil and strategic interests in every part of south central Asia. Regarding the military planning aspect, everything has already been prepared for a while. The plans for the attack date back to 1979, at the time of the US embassy crisis, and they have been updated with new technologies and strategies ever since.
    The thesis that itÂ’s about an attack basically aimed at the atomic installations with no collateral damage for the civil population is only a miserable fantasy from those who have by now become used to telling lies. Even the idea that it may be restricted to Iranian soil is suspicious to say the least, since the end of the stubbornness and the boastfulness of the Ayatollahs, on one side, and by the Israeli-Americans, on the other, has to do with interests and ambitions which go far beyond the Persian Gulf.
    Whatever the kind of attack it may be, it will produce heavy military and civil casualties regardless of whether or not a nuclear emergency fall-out or a radiation leak is triggered. Any kind of attack must have as its premise the destruction of defence structures: air and missile bases, deposits, mobile ramps, military ports, naval units, radars and anti-aircraft artilleries, land and armoured units, communication and command headquarters will have to be eliminated before or during the attack against the nuclear installations.
    Many of these structures are located near the most densely populated areas. Even taking into account the most sophisticated cruise missiles, the “intelligent” bombs directed against the targets by the Israeli and American commandos, who have already been operative for some time in Iran, a quite high margin of collateral effects remains. Were mini nuclear fission bombs or neutron bombs to be used instead of the conventional “bunker busting” bombs, the damage percentage might rise, even thought not as greatly as many expect.
    Also the thesis that precise attacks may be carried out with only one component, the aerial and missile one, is a deception. A complex operation, as they say they want to realize, that aims at bringing the Iranian bellicose potential back to the stone age, requires multiple attack actions, with many forces, from many directions and in short lapses of time in order to prevent, as colonel Boyd used to say, any capability of decision, reaction and counter-strategy by the enemy. The multiple action has to also prevent the direct retaliation by the Iranian air and naval forces against the oil installations and cargos in the Persian and Oman Gulfs. It has to neutralise the missile threats against the American military bases in Central Asia and the Middle East. It has to prevent indirect Iranian strategic operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza, the Caucasus area and anywhere else a Shia may represent trouble. Moreover, Teheran controls the northern coast of the Hormuz Straits and closing this seaway to oil cargos might cause oil prices to skyrocket to levels between 200 and 400 dollars per barrel.
    The same would happen if Iran turned sabotage actions and bombings against the oil installations of other countries in the area. The military strategy of the attack against Iran can’t therefore be entrusted to a surgical attack or to one single component. It can be nothing but that of “Swarm Warfare” (or Horde Warfare), unearthed by Arquilla and Ronfeld after the unmatchable realization by Gengis Khan. In modern terms, this strategy makes all the components of war­land operative, naval, air, missile, space, virtual and information ones­ on multiple settings and levels. To achieve all this, it’s necessary that the “swarm” of the various components and actions, which develop by focusing on one place and then by spreading to other directions and places, be are at least sufficient enough in order to prevent any sort of reaction. The hordes entrusted with destroying the targets materially have to get integrated and to focus on targets along with the virtual hordes of diplomatic actions, of psychological warfare and with those of the manipulation of information.
    The military actions have to be aimed at creating a humanitarian emergency that allows the international organizations to intervene in Iranian territory. Obviously, the responsibility for the catastrophe must be pinned on the Iranians themselves. Even in this respect, everything is ready or practically ready, not least after KouchnerÂ’s exhortation. International agencies and NGOs are already looking forward to going to Iran to set women free from their chadors. If they are given the chance to intervene so as to gather refugees, to treat the wounded, to do the counts of the dead and to call elections every month, there will be a rush to bring democracy to Iran.
    This scenarioÂ’s complexity shouldnÂ’t lead one to think that itÂ’s necessary to deploy a huge amount of forces. The Israeli and American flight formationsÂ’ bombing capacities are so high that they can cover multiple targets with a limited amount of jets. The naval missiles are by now technological weapons that donÂ’t require mass interventions to carry out precise or wide-scale destruction. If anything, the variety of the plans and the kinds of intervention will bring about coordination, command and control problems, yet nothing out of the ordinary. The US and Israel have been cooperating for half a century and the matters of pseudo-authorizations from third countries about flying over or troopsÂ’ transit are by now overcome both by political accords with concerned countries and by the two powersÂ’ inclination to ignore any objections.
    What remains is the serious and important unknown of the post-emergency. The doubt about the future of a state which retains imperial origins and outlooks and which finds itself being turned from “rogue state” into “loser state” and being regarded as a political and strategic black hole after having been considered as aspiring to the role of regional power. Deep uncertainty remains not so much for the reaction to the defeat or the reduction of its aspirations but for the reaction to the humiliation. What can’t be ruled out is just what they want to avoid, that is, Iran’s nuclearization, still to be proved and implemented, which might instead be favoured with the help of foreign powers as a reaction to the humiliation.
    Fabio Mini is an Italian General, former commander of the NATO forces in Kossovo.
    Italian original: http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Operazione-sciame-di-fuoco/1796788 Translated by Diego Traversa and revised by Mary Rizzo, members of Tlaxcala.
    Labels: absolute madness, EU, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Italy, military, NATO, propaganda, US, war

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  4. Kathleen says:

    edgery…, exactly.

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  5. edgery says:

    Steve,
    what is your view on the exceptions contained in this reiteration of Constitutional authority of the Congress?
    (2) seems to provide ample excuse for more drummed up intelligence a la 2002 and Iraq while (3) seems to encourage our own military driving a band of Iraqi insurgents across the porous border into Iran to justify US action against Iran.

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  6. edgery says:

    Steve,
    what is your view on the exceptions contained in this reiteration of Constitutional authority of the Congress?
    (2) seems to provide ample excuse for more drummed up intelligence a la 2002 and Iraq while (3) seems to encourage our own military driving a band of Iraqi insurgents across the porous border into Iran to justify US action against Iran.

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  7. Kathleen says:

    Hillary’s Yes vote on the Kyl-Lieberman resolution is going to bring up old stuff, and rightfully so. Robert Parry at ConsortiumNews.com has written a great piece on Bill sweeping Iran-Contra under the rug and rightfully asks if Hillary will do the same with Junior’s scandals.
    Recent polls showing a Hillary surge were conducted after her “Darth” quip but before her yes vote on the Kyl-Lieberman resolution. Watch those numbers change.
    I remember when Kerry’s numbers rose after he said W stands for wrong, wrong war, wrong time, wrong place, then sank again when he stood in front of the Grand Canyon and said if he knew then what he knows now, he would vote the same way.
    A tanking we will go, a tanking we will go, Hi Ho the merry-o, a tanking we will go. And not a moment too soon, either. Anyone think Demz will ever get the message?

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  8. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I think most of us are more concerned with the country than any party.”
    Except, of course, Morrow.
    Oh, and, uh, Scott Paul and Steve Clemons.

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  9. Carroll says:

    Yea, I don’t see any people here who are diehard suporters of a candidate just because they are from one party or another.
    The beauty of this particular blog is you don’t have to be partisan or do group think to have your say.
    I think most of us are more concerned with the country than any party.

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  10. Kathleen says:

    Robert Morrow… what folks are you talking about?? I don’t see Clinton supporters here.

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  11. Kathleen says:

    Robert Morrow… what folks are you talking about?? I don’t see Clinton supporters here.

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  12. Robert Morrow says:

    The Clintons have proven over 36 years that you can NOT trust ANYTHING that comes out of their mouths. Hillary is a hawk on Iran; but the truth is she would sell any of her constituencies down the river for money or power. When are you folks going to learn?

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  13. Carroll says:

    Posted by Memekiller at October 4, 2007 11:49 AM
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Washington must die with Bush. They all must die!…cackle,cackle

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  14. Memekiller says:

    Love the bomb, Carroll. Love the bomb.
    The Bush zombie must die.

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  15. Carroll says:

    Posted by Memekiller at October 4, 2007 02:01 AM
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    U.S. protests shrink while antiwar sentiment grows By Andy Sullivan Wed Oct 3, 8:33 AM ET
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Crowds at antiwar rallies in Washington have dwindled even as U.S. opinion has turned against the war in Iraq, as organizers feud and participants question the effectiveness of the street protests.
    Rival antiwar groups, which in years past jointly sponsored massive rallies on the National Mall, have promoted separate protests recently or decided to steer clear of the capital altogether.
    The thinning crowds stand in contrast to the antiwar protests of the Vietnam era, which grew as the war progressed.
    Activists and experts say divisions among peace groups, along with other factors like the lack of a draft, fatigue about the war and the rise of the Internet, have all contributed to the declining turnout.
    “When you have demonstrations in which the turnout is not terribly impressive, that gives politicians the sense that people may oppose the war but nobody’s really going to pay a price,” said Peter Kuznik, an American University history professor and antiwar protester.
    Frustration about the war has driven down President George W. Bush’s approval ratings and helped Democrats win control of Congress last year. But since 2005, antiwar groups have opted to promote separate events rather than work together.
    “There’s all of these peripheral issues that you’re going to be associated with, whether you want to or not,” said Hamilton College history professor Maurice Isserman.
    Antiwar leaders say recent smaller protests reflect new tactics, not disorganization. Smaller activist groups like Code Pink have been a colorful, disruptive presence at congressional hearings and appearances by Bush administration officials.
    Largely absent from the actions are young people, who were the majority of Vietnam-era protesters — perhaps because they do not risk being drafted into the military or from a sense that they can express their opposition to the war on the Internet, rather than on the streets, Isserman said.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
    Here is what needs to happen.
    AQ or the Iraq insurgents attack and kill most of the Blackwater forces in Iraq, (Iraq just told them today to get out of the country) drawing in the US troops and putting them in the position of having to defend the merc’s and eventually having to take over the jobs the merc’s were doing.
    Then Cheney and the Israelites start up a war with Iran on the boarders of Iraq.
    Then a draft is instituted to replace all the merc’s because we don’t have enough troops.
    When everyone’s little darling is subject to the draft maybe then they will get upset.
    Or if that doesn’t work we could bomb Iran , which would shut off 40% of the worlds oil supply. US firms and business would be brought to their knees, all supplies of necessities to consumers would grind to a halt and what did get trucked through would too expensive to buy for most people. The airlines would go down. People would start losing their jobs. Police and NG and all other federal and local enforcement arms would be cut back. Electrical use would be rationed, even at hospitals. People will die in cold storms and summer brownouts. Water plants would falter. China would lose a large chunk of their the energy supply and cut back on production, fewer imports to the US, giving them not much reason to continue to hold on to their dollars.
    Then we would be living in third world conditions, reckon the people would revolt then?

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  16. Kathleen says:

    Well if Joe Lieberman moves to Israel, Rcihard Blumenthal, current AG in CT. is poised to take his place. Not an improvement by any means.
    I’ve had my share of dealings with him in my work for various CT. Indian Tribes trying to be Federally recognized. The man has no problem lying and cheating and unfairly using his office to oppress less fortunate people. He even drank champagne with our convict Governor, John Rowland, when they succeeded in defeating an effort to integrate Hartford schools. Schiff vs. CT.
    Unfortunately, Ned Lamont doesn’t have the know-how to run a successful campaign. Now if we could talk Ralph Nader into running for the US Senate from CT., we might actually get somewhere. I’m not holding my breath.

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  17. David N says:

    Memekiller:
    Amen.
    We have not surrendered. I have been active, in a number of ways, and will continue to do so. You had no way of knowing that based on what’s here.
    We can all do something. The question was not, act or not. The question was, how to do so effectively.
    One way is to challenge the corporate dominance of the media. Write letters to papers and broadcasters that put out lies and slander. Campaign to get the Post to at last fire the traitor Novak. Cancel your subscriptions to publications that sponsor treason such as he commits. There is a movement to boycott companies such as Home Depot that advertise on Fox, and instead use Lowe’s, who ended their sponsorship of Feaux Noise lies.
    It’s never enough, but it helps.
    The question just may become, how bad will it get before we start with the stuff Carroll was talking about?
    In the meantime, man the barricades!!!!!

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  18. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Be still my heart!..The Lieberman’s may move to Israel.”
    Any chance of passing a resolution that they hafta take Washington with them?

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  19. Memekiller says:

    “So, guy, stories about Star Wars are uplifting, and all; but this is Washington, not the real world. What can we really do?” – David
    It’s not about being uplifting. It’s about not being pathetic. Or apathetic. Or both.
    There’s a quote I love. I don’t know who said it, and I don’t want to know because if I google it, I might find out it came from “Knight Rider”, but here it goes: “The only causes worth fighting for are lost causes.”
    It took me a long time to figure that quote out. It’s usually when I watch movies about Nazis that it makes sense to me. Things look mighty bleak, and people sacrifice their souls because they just see no way out. And then the war ends, and they spend the next fifty years in regret about what they became. You think there’s no accountability, then all of the sudden, the world comes right again and all those guys having their way with prisoners are explaining themselves through a microphone behind bulletproof glass. And you think, crap, I sure wish I was a little stronger.
    So in times of madness, I always think if I could live with myself fifty years from now when I look back on this relatively short period of insanity and see how I acted.
    For me, it’s not about winning or changing the world. It’s about knowing that when the time came I didn’t cower in fear and that I, at the very least, did not participate in the madness.
    Losing doesn’t make us pussies. Surrendering does. So for God sakes, man, have a little dignity and stand up for yourself.

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  20. Carroll says:

    Barf Alert.
    John Kerry and Jim Webb and even the repubs want to invade Burma.
    It’s a crisis! It’s a crisis!
    One third of the people there live in poverty!
    100 monks have been tossed out!
    Burma really wants to be a democracy!
    Don’t sanction Burma, rush them aid thru the UN.
    Go cheney yourselves boys…90% of Gaza lives in poverty and you voted to starve them some more.
    Israel killed 100 children and you voted to give them more money to do it with.
    Palestine wants to be a state, they even had elections and you ignored their elections.
    You sanctioned palestine and prevented the UN and the EU from sending them any aid.
    You fricking, sick hypocrites. Just shut your pie holes and go back to naming Post Offices and selling favors.

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  21. Carroll says:

    Posted by David N at October 3, 2007 11:59 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Ditto.
    What can we do?
    I have suggested withholding our taxes. Send in your return with no money just a note saying no representation, no money. But to make it work millions of us would have to do it.
    We could phsyically take over congress but that also would take hundreds of thousands.
    Moveon says they have 3.1 million members and I read that AARP is the largest membership group in the US, many millions. Then there are the unions.
    All these big groups should get together and stir up their membership and organize and flood congress for days and days, as long as it takes for most of them to resign or go bat shit crazy at the lose of their control of us.
    Since we don’t seem to have any White Knight figure to galvanize the public into action I suppose it will take some horrific event to get people off their asses.
    Maybe we should do our own false flag operation on the government to get people upset enough…got any ideas?

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  22. Carroll says:

    Breaking News
    Lieberman’s children Israel bound?
    E-mail News Brief
    Tell the Editors
    Published: 10/02/2007
    The wife of U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman said at least one of their children plans to immigrate to Israel.
    Hadassah Lieberman, who made a brief visit to Israel this week for the inauguration of a Jewish study center for women, described her family’s devotion to Zionism in an interview with Ha’aretz on Tuesday.
    Asked if any of the four children that she and the Independent senator from Connecticut have between them might move to Israel, she said, “One or two will do it. And if they make aliyah, we will be here.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Be still my heart!..The Lieberman’s may move to Israel.
    Maybe all the Lieberman’s in congress will move to Israel.
    We hope.

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  23. David N says:

    memekiller:
    You make an attractive case, but one can see holes in it.
    The fact is, the majority of the American public has rejected the Kool-Aid. And it makes no difference.
    Most people reject the idea that the only thing that counts in politics is who wins the game. They are looking for politicians who also have some interest in actual governance. And it makes no difference.
    There is a growing groundswell of ordinary people taking to the Internet — in places like this, and others — and expressing their disgust with the criminals in the Republican party and the wimps/enablers in the Democratic leadership. And it makes no difference.
    We hear nothing about this in the media. Newspapers don’t cover it — only in spots. They keep repeating the bullshit that got Bush elected in the first place, without any recognition how badly Bush has damaged our country. Certainly broadcast media continues to be dominated by nut jobs like Limbaugh and O’Reilly, who are ignored by any rational person, but still seem to prove that no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
    Speaking up isn’t enough. We do speak up, and get drowned out by the wingnuts and corporate stooges.
    Opting out certainly isn’t enough. That leaves the field to the fascists, and that can’t be right.
    Voting Democratic seems to not be enough, as the news proves every day. It seems that politicians make a choice when they join the profession: Republicans choose balls; Democrats choose hearts. No one gets both, and no one gets brains.
    The system is fixed, when the real conflict is not between one group of people and another, but rather between people as a whole and corporate interests. And no one notices.
    So, guy, stories about Star Wars are uplifting, and all; but this is Washington, not the real world. What can we really do?

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  24. Rosetta says:

    Wow. These are the most compelling comments I’ve ever seen. It’s just a mess, the whole way ’round. I can only add what I know, and that is, nobody games the system like the Clintons: http://theseedsof9-11.com

    Reply

  25. JohnH says:

    It’s also interesting to compare the US government’s reaction to June 8 and to September 11. When a US warship was attacked by a “friendly” government and 34 enlisted people killed, nothing was done. When major US landmarks were attacked, killing 2,974 people, the government decided to launch a trillion dollar, endless war, occupy two countries, and preside over the killing of perhaps a million people.
    Now Bush is cooking up stories about Iranian involvement in killing US soldiers. Despite the paucity of evidence, it could be enough to “justify” launching another trillion dollar plus war.
    All that’s missing for perfect hypocrisy is for Israel to launch another Liberty attack and then see Bush fly to Jerusalem to pat the Likudniks on their yarmulkas in foregiveness for their mistake.

    Reply

  26. Carroll says:

    Everything gets declassified sooner or later. The truth comes out sooner or later.
    However when it comes to Iran, forty years after the fact will be far too late.
    Chicago Tribune
    October 2, 2007
    Special report
    New revelations in attack on American spy ship
    Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly ’67 incident
    By John Crewdson | Tribune senior correspondent
    October 2, 2007
    snips…
    “In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country’s chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had “become the center of considerable controversy and debate.” It was not the agency’s intention, it said, “to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material,” available athttp://www.nsa.gov/liberty
    “But sir, it’s an American ship — I can see the flag!’ To which the ground control responded, ‘Never mind; hit it!'”
    In a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv.
    Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named “Hamlet” was reporting that the Americans had “clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway.”
    Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was “very angry,” and that “the reason for this is that the Americans have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American.”
    According to a memoir by then-CIA director Richard Helms, President Johnson’s personal anger was manifest when he discovered the story of the Liberty attack on an inside page of the next day’s New York Times. Johnson barked that “it should have been on the front page!”
    Israeli historian Tom Segev, who mentioned the cables in his recent book “1967,” said other cables showed that Harman’s source for the second cable was Arthur Goldberg, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.
    Oliver Kirby, the NSA’s deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.
    Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, ” I certainly did.”
    “They said, ‘We’ve got him in the zero,'” Kirby recalled, “whatever that meant — I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, ‘Can you see the flag?’ They said ‘Yes, it’s U.S, it’s U.S.’ They said it several times, so there wasn’t any doubt in anybody’s mind that they knew it.”
    Kirby, now 86 and retired in Texas, said the transcripts were “something that’s bothered me all my life.
    One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army’s intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.
    W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as “course material” in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.
    “The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag,” Lang recalled in an e-mail.
    “The flight commander was reluctant,” Lang said in a subsequent interview. “That was very clear. He didn’t want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, ‘Do you really want me to do this?’ I’ve remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I’ve been harboring this memory for all these years.”
    The full story at.
    http://tinyurl.com/33tosa
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    What does this have to do with today?
    Well basically it means that within the United States government forty years ago we had people who would allow an attack on a US ship by a foreign country that killed 34 people and wounded 171.
    That those people in our government then covered it up and denied justice to the victims in favor of the interest of a foreign country.
    And since then the US government has given 1.2 trillion dollars of American money to the country guilty of a deliberate attack on Americans.
    N.o.t.h.i.n.g h.a.s c.h.a.n.g.e.d.
    It’s only gotten worse.

    Reply

  27. Kathleen says:

    Mike Gravel on war with iran….
    Sen. Gravel Say AIPAC Is Pushing Confrontation With Iran
    Submitted by davidswanson on Wed, 2007-10-03 16:40. Activism
    By Philip Weiss
    I keep declaring that the Walt and Mearsheimer is historic, that it has blasted down a wall in the American discourse. I keep getting more evidence.
    The following exchange took place on the Jim Lehrer News Hour last night between presidential candidate (and former Alaska Sen.) Mike Gravel and PBS’s Ray Suarez. What is most significant about this is that the question of Israel’s interest versus America’s interest in confronting Iran is out on the table, on public television:
    RAY SUAREZ: You’re 77. Why put yourself through this?
    MIKE GRAVEL: I love my country, and I love the human
    race. And I want to see a change made in the
    leadership of our country so we can do more to protect
    the human race….With respect to my country going to war
    when there’s no reason to go to war, killing human
    beings, I’m ashamed of this.
    I’m ashamed of the leadership we have, whether it’s
    Democratic leadership or Republican leadership. That’s
    the reason why I’m in.
    Look what we’re trying to do with Iran right now. Last
    week, the Lieberman resolution — he’s the guy that
    wrote the resolution with Iraq and killed over 3,000
    Americans and a million Iraqis. And now he comes
    forward with another resolution, and the leadership of
    the Democratic Party in the Senate doesn’t even have
    the brains or the judgment to recognize what he’s
    doing. Sanctions on the Republican Guard? They already have
    sanctions. The U.N. passed them in March, Resolution
    1747. What is the game they’re playing right now to
    have sanctions? I mean, this was AIPAC that put
    Lieberman up to do this. This is disaster…
    If we touch Iran and they respond, you’re talking
    about, in the minimum, a world depression, because the
    oil industry will just get shut down at the Straits of
    Hormuz. That’s the minimum.
    RAY SUAREZ: You’re saying that the national
    legislature of this country, rather than doing the
    will of the citizens of the United States, passed that
    Iran resolution, sanctioning the Republican Guard,
    because of the American- Israeli Political Action
    Committee?
    MIKE GRAVEL: Wait a second. They’ll be some
    information coming out about how this thing was
    drafted. So the answer is yes, the short answer.
    The worst that will happen will be a nuclear exchange,
    and I don’t think we’ll ever be able to contain once
    they start shooting bombs at each other nuclear
    devices. This is what’s at stake with this resolution.
    And it’s the height of immorality, irresponsibility,
    and the United States Senate, with the Democrats in
    charge, voted for the passage of this resolution. It
    doesn’t get any worse than that, Ray.
    Boy, I’ll say.

    Reply

  28. memekiller says:

    Whenever I hear this defeatist attitude about how we’re powerless to change things, I think about this virtual protest staged by players of “Star Wars Galaxies” when they tried to changed the rules of the game.
    In this instance, Sony, who ran the servers, was more than a dictator. They were God, with absolute control over everything people did. But a bunch of angry gamers staged a protest outside the spaceport in Mos Eisley, and the fascist IT guys started ejecting them into space.
    So one virtual guy starts taking on the role of reporter — reporting the virtual Kent State to other gamers in real time.
    Eventually, it got to be too much and Sony capitulated. Not because people were cancelling, but there was just too much heat. The one thing you can’t control is people’s minds (yet). That was enough. All it took was people refusing to play along any more.
    Even fascist dictators have to consider the people. There is a breaking point where people refuse to comply any more, no matter how much you threaten them or intimidate them, or strip away their rights.
    What they want is for you to be defeatist and accept your place in the world.

    Reply

  29. Carroll says:

    An Establishment of thugs. Issa suggesting that Blackwater would let Waxman be killed should he visit Iraq if he investigates Blackwater.
    “Issa: Watch Out, Waxman”
    Rep. Darrell Issa went on CSPAN’s Washington Journal this morning and had this to say about the House oversight committee’s investigation of Blackwater (via Atrios):
    “If Henry Waxman today wants to go to Iraq and do an investigation, Blackwater will be his support team. His protection team. Do you think he really wants to investigate directly?”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    They are all crazy, all of them. They are all thugs and/or crooks and/or self serving opportunist and/or traitorous fanatics.

    Reply

  30. Carroll says:

    Does the election or any of the candidates really matter? Aren’t they all, some more or less than others, what Glenn Greenwald describes as the “Beltway Establishment” or the Beltway Village:
    “Ultimately, no critique of any political issue or claims of “change” have any meaning at all unless they are grounded in the pervasive corruption not of one political faction, but of our political establishment as a whole — all of the broken and worthless appendage parts ..
    Nothing meaningful can be done about any of that except with the recognition that the fault lies not with any isolated political figure or party but with the entire Beltway edifice as a whole. Preventing any fundamental examination of America’s role in the world — questioning why we invade and bomb and occupy and interfere in the governance other countries more than anyone else by far — is one of the top objectives of Beltway orthodoxy.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    “all of the broken and worthless appendage parts ..”…well, that sums it up.
    If you can find anyone who will burn the establishment edifice to the ground vote for him. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

    Reply

  31. zak822 says:

    I like the politics of Sen. Clinton getting out in front like this, but I believe it’s simple election posturing. Congress will not refuse funding if President Bush, as Commander-in-Chief, launches an attack on Iran. Every Dem knows the media will crucify them if they don’t provide funds. ‘Course, the media will crucify them anyway, but that’s another topic.
    President Bush has the authority to initiate hostilities, and Congress will not gainsay that authority no matter how shaky the rationale.
    Once there is military engagement, my Dems will fold like a sand castle in the rain.
    As a sidebar, there’s little point to the constant refrain about war supporters kids not being in the military. Better to ask young people themselves why they’re not joining to fight the war on terra. We can get milage out of that.

    Reply

  32. Kathleen says:

    None of us here is gullible about impeachment and do not expect Demz to have the fiber to do it, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t drive them nutso insisting on it.
    I’m so over the top with their bullshit, my vocabulary has been reduced to one word, Impeachment. That’s all I have to say them now.

    Reply

  33. memekiller says:

    Make that “velcro” not “teflon”…

    Reply

  34. David N says:

    Same old, same old.
    I remember, way back, two years ago, Obama was asking rhetorically what he needed to do to establish his legitimacy as a presidential candidate. At the time, I had a simple answer.
    Your job.
    Well, turns out that wasn’t necessary. None of them has done their job, which is to protect the Constitution of the United States in the only effective manner, by impeaching first Cheney, then Bush. All Dodd’s empty rhetoric about restoring the Constitution on his first day in office — as if — is then revealed as the empty bullshit it is.
    ” . . . compliant press . . .”
    POA, haven’t you been paying attention? That’s been a given for the last twenty years. That’s how W stole the election in the first place, or even got into position to be able to steal it.
    Finally, we have the answer to the old question:
    WAR, what is it good for?
    To be used as an empty rhetorical device to justify amassing power for the corporate interests, subverting the Constitution, and destroying our democracy and economy, in the name of the almighty profit.
    It is continually amazing to me that I can sound like John Reed, and it makes sense. Has no one learned anything in the last hundred years?????

    Reply

  35. PissedOffAmerican says:

    We have no leverage without representation. And, as the last seven years have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have no representation.
    Period.
    This Administration, and any future Administrations, will no longer represent the interests, or the desires, of the American people. It has become a global game, played by global players. The state means NOTHING to them.

    Reply

  36. memekiller says:

    Dan,
    Well, look at Petreaus. You had the same thoughts there — the people would somehow fall for this charade. What everyone is missing is that a party with these polls is teflon. You can say anything about them and it sticks.
    The other thing you overlook is Pavlov’s dog. The folks in DC have the intellect to override the stimulus/response of their reptilian brains, which is why the learning curve has flatlined. You saw the same thing during Clinton impeachment. DC kept thinking the bottom was going to fall out, but Clinton’s support showed the public was sending a fairly clear, consistent message. Frustration over the government’s lack of comprehension is what fueled grassroots orgs like MoveOn. MoveOn, already! For the love of God, MOVE ON!!!!
    Again, DC isn’t getting it. The public’s opinion has solidified. They’ve made up their minds about Bush and his war. There will be no stabbed in the back, and there will be no rallying around the President when he gears up for war with Iran. Not becaues they’re partisan, but because they’ve seen this movie before, over and over and over again. They know that if the Whitehouse says something, and the media climbs on board, and the Democrats get badgered into following along, believe the exact opposite. Ring a bell every time you feed a dog, when you ring a bell, the dog’s mouth salivates. Pure and simple.
    So yes, again, the public will hear a unified voice from DC saying whatever that just happens to cast the world in such a way that turns Bush’s failure into a parallel world where he has principled resolve with divine foresight. Again. And they’re going to go, holy mother of Mary — when will you people WAKE UP?
    It’s not the public you have to worry about. It’s the opposition’s self-defeating fear of standing up, and its lack of conviction.

    Reply

  37. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “We’ll also get all the usual sorts of propaganda designed to put fire in liberal and conservative bellies. Rumors about evil mullahs forcing babies to wear burkhas; rumors of Christian churches bombed and Christians forced to wear upside-down cross badges; rumors of secretive extermination camps being constructed deep in the heart of Persia, etc.”
    These monsters aren’t that shrewd, or that patient. They will simply murder a bunch of us in ANOTHER false flag terrorist attack, whose blame will be placed squarely in the laps of the Iranians. Hell, as 9/11 and the accusations leading up to the Iraq war proved, they don’t even need sound evidence to convince the American people. All they need is a good lie, a compliant press, and a cowed citizenry.

    Reply

  38. Carroll says:

    Why are we worrying about this election and this government? We the people don’t have a government. We haven’t had one for 40 years or more. And this election isn’t going to change anything.
    What would you say if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the US government had allowed a foreign country to “deliberately” attack a US ship, kill 34 Americans and wound 171 others and “deliberately” covered it up?
    Well guess what…Israel did and the US did.
    What do you say about a government that allows it’s own people to be killed? And doesn’t punish the killers? And has in fact given those killers 1.2 trillion dollars in aid since then? And says the “protection” of that guilty country is the “cornerstone of our foreign policy”?
    http://tinyurl.com/2c75rc
    Chicago Tribune
    ChicagoTribuneWebEdition
    October 2, 2007
    Special report
    New revelations in attack on American spy ship
    Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly ’67 incident
    By John Crewdson | Tribune senior correspondent
    October 2, 2007
    snip…
    “In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country’s chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had “become the center of considerable controversy and debate.” It was not the agency’s intention, it said, “to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material,” available athttp://www.nsa.gov/liberty
    “But sir, it’s an American ship — I can see the flag!’ To which the ground control responded, ‘Never mind; hit it!'”
    In a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv.
    Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named “Hamlet” was reporting that the Americans had “clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway.”
    Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was “very angry,” and that “the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American.”
    According to a memoir by then-CIA director Richard Helms, President Johnson’s personal anger was manifest when he discovered the story of the Liberty attack on an inside page of the next day’s New York Times. Johnson barked that “it should have been on the front page!”
    Israeli historian Tom Segev, who mentioned the cables in his recent book “1967,” said other cables showed that Harman’s source for the second cable was Arthur Goldberg, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.
    Oliver Kirby, the NSA’s deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.
    Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, “I certainly did.”
    “They said, ‘We’ve got him in the zero,'” Kirby recalled, “whatever that meant — I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, ‘Can you see the flag?’ They said ‘Yes, it’s U.S, it’s U.S.’ They said it several times, so there wasn’t any doubt in anybody’s mind that they knew it.”
    One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army’s intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.
    W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as “course material” in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.
    “The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag,” Lang recalled in an e-mail.
    “The flight commander was reluctant,” Lang said in a subsequent interview. “That was very clear. He didn’t want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, ‘Do you really want me to do this?’ I’ve remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I’ve been harboring this memory for all these years.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Nothing has changed and you don’t have a country. So instead of worrying about who to vote for you better set about investigating which country’s government has the best record of representing their own citizens and think about moving to it.
    Cause this ain’t it.

    Reply

  39. Dan Kervick says:

    memekiller wrote:
    “I didn’t say the Dems would. I meant the public would be at the gates with pitchforks to scare the cowards into impeaching him.”
    I tend to doubt that. A war against Iran won’t come out of the blue. It will be the result of an orchestrated, escalating series of provocations, retaliations and counter-retaliations. A raid here, a missile strike there; and for every one there will be a plausible-sounding reason. Perhaps there will be a mysterious explosion at a Saudi or Gulf State port, prompting a limited “retaliatory” strike on Iran. Eventually the Iranians will be forced to really retaliate. Once Iranians are sinking our ships and shooting at our boys in Iraq, the public will get behind the White House and we’ll be off to the races.
    We’ll also get all the usual sorts of propaganda designed to put fire in liberal and conservative bellies. Rumors about evil mullahs forcing babies to wear burkhas; rumors of Christian churches bombed and Christians forced to wear upside-down cross badges; rumors of secretive extermination camps being constructed deep in the heart of Persia, etc.

    Reply

  40. memekiller says:

    PO’dAmerican,
    I didn’t say the Dems would. I meant the public would be at the gates with pitchforks to scare the cowards into impeaching him.
    And enough with this defeatist “they won’t pass it” crap. Then make them vote it down again. Make them vote it down every week. Make them actually filibuster, for God’s sake.
    Republicans never stick the flag burning amendment up for a vote because they think it will pass; they put it up for a vote because they think it won’t, and they want you on record voting against it.
    Win or lose, the battles you chose defines you, and the tenacity with which you pursue them speaks to your conviction. Show our conviction is to bring back accountability. Show their conviction is partisanship, and devotion to the boy king.
    Lose the vote, win the war. Or rather, stop the war.

    Reply

  41. sahmadi says:

    How gullible you people are? Webb’s amendment is NOT going to pass. Hillary knows this. She is basically covering her rear end. Even if the amendment passes, she continues to share the Bush administrations designation of the Iranian military as terrorist…which is absurd! The designation is a declaration of war considering the previous authority the Congress bestowed on Bush.
    When Bush decides to attack Iran, there will not be major demonstrations. There will be sporadic outrage…nothing more. The country will rally around the troops and will give this President the benefit of the doubt. The media will hype the technology and the precision of the attack. The war will be like a Fall sitcom.
    Impeachment? LOL. You people are fools. You think the Democrats have the guts or even the desire to impeach? The Democrats are salivating at the chance to wield the power that Bush has acquired…that is why they really haven’t opposed him. Truthfully what is the difference between a nanny state and a police state. Not much.

    Reply

  42. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “If you want Bush impeached, let him bomb Iran.”
    You’re dreamin’. If these cowards haven’t seen cause to impeach him by now, the Monkey Boy could nuke Hawaii and get away with it.
    And who’s gonna impeach him? If you haven’t noticed by now, the democrats are all for bombing Iran. That is, when they aren’t against it. One certainly doesn’t want to blink when following Washington poliposturing, you might miss the flip before the flop.

    Reply

  43. memekiller says:

    Yeah, I really, really don’t believe the public is going to rally around an attack on Iran. Public opinion on Bush is solid as granite, and it will appear to be exactly what it is.
    If you want Bush impeached, let him bomb Iran.

    Reply

  44. Sandy says:

    Hear! Hear! Kathleen!

    Reply

  45. Kathleen says:

    Even if the Webb resolution passed, doesn’t Dopey still have his little veto pen handy?
    It’s all an excercise in futility, at taxpayer expense. Dopey doesn’t need Congress’ approval to respond to an “attack” by Iran or to go after the “terrorists” even if they are across the border in Iran, especially if they are.
    Made to order for The Plan.
    Just get it the F**k over with and impeach them, already.
    Geeeeezus H. Christ.

    Reply

  46. Chesire11 says:

    Although it will certainly be better for the Senate Dems to pass Webb’s Resolution than it would be to reject it, what actual effect will it have? Bush finds an excuse to launch a few strikes, Iran retaliates. As American troops come under fire and the death toll climbs, pressure to fund and authorize war against Iran will become inexorable.

    Reply

  47. memekiller says:

    “Suppose the Congress does pass such a resolution, and the administration just ignores it. What would happen then? I’m not asking for opinions on what *should* happen then, but rather on what *would* happen then.”
    What would happen is that Clinton would not have to spend a lot of valuable time Sunday mornings explaining why she voted for an attack before she was against it.
    If Bush bombs Iran. Then learn to love the bomb.
    Yeeeeehaaaah!!!!!

    Reply

  48. Dan Kervick says:

    Suppose the Congress does pass such a resolution, and the administration just ignores it. What would happen then? I’m not asking for opinions on what *should* happen then, but rather on what *would* happen then.

    Reply

  49. rich says:

    Great post, Steve. A few brief comments.
    ASKING Prznt. Bush to “seek Congressional approval” is a huge mistake. It defaults to making Congress a rubber stamp after a decision’s already been made–and that inverts the lawful process. That cedes power to Bush he does not possess. The ONLY valid course is to force Bush to request a formal Congressional Declaration of War.
    Agree on two points. As many have been saying:
    “It is essential that the Senate pass a resolution that claws back its Congressional prerogatives to declare war.”
    And absolutely critical:
    “It is not enough to just support a resolution and watch it languish. This is a measure that needs to be passed and sent to the White House to rob legitimacy from any conflict Cheney and his followers might engineer..”
    BUT the soft weasel-words are not enough.
    A “resolution” is but an IR-Resolution without bluntly stated steadfast adherence to the Constitutional principle that Congress Declares War.
    The degraded law & Legis as an institution is still offering up weak tea: It’s NOT ENOUGH to “support” a resolution–find a Gang of 14 or 28 and bring th process to bear to drive a stake through the betrayal of our codified system.
    This news is a positive sign; however, Hillary wants it both ways–and can’t, on this issue.
    Merely ‘supporting’ or even co-sponsoring failed legislation will NOT be sufficient–not when the problem is structural and the abuse of power so well-documented in Iraq, at extremely high cost.
    The Revolutionary Guard is no more a terrorist organization than recognized US agencies involved in covert wars, etc.–and faciliting such policy failures and structural abuses will not win Hillary the general election.
    “Hillary Clinton will support Senator Webb’s Resolution demanding that the President seek Congressional approval before any military action against Iran and prohibiting the use of funds for military operations in Iran.”

    Reply

  50. Ric says:

    I don’t know what all the fuss is about. When/if Bush comes to ask for the authorization to attack Iram, the Democrats will give it to him. You all seem to think that the Democrats OPPOSE Bush policies.

    Reply

  51. Orin T. says:

    I will wait and see if she acts in the same direction as she is talking, or like Sen. Dick Luger she refuses to put her vote where her mouth is.

    Reply

  52. Linda says:

    Kuchinich or someone in the House should do a similar resolution and probably add that if we go to war with Iran, we also reinstitute the draft. We don’t have enough Army and Marines to do it any other way. That’s just practical reality regardless of all the options and foreign policy conjectures on this or other similar blogs. The public doesn’t want us in Iraq, and Congress hasn’t been able to get us out–so the very least they maybe can do is keep us from starting a war with Iran too.

    Reply

  53. Carroll says:

    I forgot to add may they all burn in hell.

    Reply

  54. Carroll says:

    If I were doing a political ad for Dennis I would use this article and something like..
    I AM THE ONLY AMERICAN CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT THAT DOESN’T SUPPORT ISRAEL AND KILLING CHILDREN, MINE, YOURS OR ANYONE ELSES.
    Twilight Zone / The children of 5767
    By Gideon Levy
    It was a pretty quiet year, relatively speaking. Only 457 Palestinians and 10 Israelis were killed, according to the B’Tselem human rights organization, including the victims of Qassam rockets. Fewer casualties than in many previous years. However, it was still a terrible year: 92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens – a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number. The Jewish year of 5767. Almost 100 children, who were alive and playing last New Year, didn’t survive to see this one.
    One year. Close to 8,000 kilometers were covered in the newspaper’s small, armored Rover – not including the hundreds of kilometers in the old yellow Mercedes taxi belonging to Munir and Sa’id, our dedicated drivers in Gaza. This is how we celebrated the 40th anniversary of the occupation. No one can argue anymore that it’s only a temporary, passing phenomenon. Israel is the occupation. The occupation is Israel.
    We set out each week in the footsteps of the fighters, in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, trying to document the deeds of Israel Defense Forces soldiers, Border Police officers, Shin Bet security service investigators and Civil Administration personnel – the mighty occupation army that leaves behind in its wake horrific killing and destruction, this year as every year, for four decades.
    And this was the year of the children that were killed. We didn’t get to all of their homes, only to some; homes of bereavement where parents weep bitterly over their children, who were climbing a fig tree in the yard, or sitting on a bench in the street, or preparing for an exam, or on their way home from school, or sleeping peacefully in the false security of their homes.
    A few of them also threw a rock at an armored vehicle or touched a forbidden fence. All came under live fire, some of which was deliberately aimed at them, cutting them down in their youth. From Mohammed (al-Zakh) to Mahmoud (al-Qarinawi), from the boy who was buried twice in Gaza to the boy who was buried in Israel. These are the stories of the children of 5767.
    The first of them was buried twice. Abdullah al-Zakh identified half of the body of his son Mahmoud, in the morgue refrigerator of Shifa Hospital in Gaza, by the boy’s belt and the socks on his feet. This was shortly before last Rosh Hashanah. The next day, when the Israel Defense Forces “successfully” completed Operation Locked Kindergarten, as it was called, leaving behind 22 dead and a razed neighborhood, and left Sajiyeh in Gaza, the bereaved father found the remaining parts of the body and brought them for a belated burial.
    Mahmoud was 14 when he died. He was killed three days before the start of the school year. Thus we ushered in Rosh Hashanah 5767. In Shifa we saw children whose legs were amputated, who were paralyzed or on respirators. Families were killed in their sleep, or while riding on donkeys, or working in the fields. Operation Locked Kindergarten and Operation Summer Rains. Remember? Five children were killed in the first operation, with the dreadful name. For a week, the people of Sajiyeh lived in fear the likes of which Sderot residents have never experienced – not to belittle their anxiety, that is.
    The day after Rosh Hashanah we traveled to Rafah. Dam Hamad, 14, had been killed in her sleep, in her mother’s arms, by an Israeli rocket strike that sent a concrete pillar crashing down on her head. She was the only daughter of her paralyzed mother, her whole world. In the family’s impoverished home in the Brazil neighborhood, at the edge of Rafah, we met the mother who lay in a heap in bed; everything she had in the world was gone. Outside, I remarked to the reporter from French television who accompanied me that this was one of those moments when I felt ashamed to be an Israeli. The next day he called and said: “They didn’t broadcast what you said, for fear of the Jewish viewers in France.”
    Soon afterward we went back to Jerusalem to visit Maria Aman, the amazing little girl from Gaza, who lost nearly everyone in her life to a missile strike gone awry that wiped out her innocent family, including her mother, while riding in their car. Her devoted father Hamdi remains by her side. For a year and a half, she has been cared for at the wonderful Alyn Hospital, where she has learned to feed a parrot with her mouth and to operate her wheelchair using her chin. All the rest of her limbs are paralyzed. She is connected day and night to a respirator. Still, she is a cheerful and neatly groomed child whose father fears the day they might be sent back to Gaza.
    For now, they remain in Israel. Many Israelis have devoted themselves to Maria and come to visit her regularly. A few weeks ago, broadcast journalist Leah Lior took her in her car to see the sea in Tel Aviv. It was a Saturday night, and the area was crowded with people out for a good time, but the girl in the wheelchair attracted attention. Some people recognized her and stopped to say hello and wish her well. Who knows? Maybe the pilot who fired the missile at her car happened to be passing by, too.
    Not everyone has been fortunate enough to receive the treatment that Maria has had. In mid-November, a few days after the bombardment of Beit Hanoun – remember that? – we arrived in the battered and bleeding town: 22 killed in a moment, 11 shells dropped on a densely packed town. Islam, 14, sat there dressed in black, grieving for her eight relatives that had been killed, including her mother and grandmother. Those disabled by this bombardment didn’t get to go to Alyn.
    Two days before the shelling of Beit Hanoun, our forces also fired a missile that hit the minibus transporting children to the Indira Gandhi kindergarten in Beit Lahia. Two kids, passersby, were killed on the spot. The teacher, Najwa Khalif, died a few days later. She was wounded in clear view of her 20 small pupils, who were sitting in the minibus. After her death, the children drew a picture: a row of children lying bleeding, their teacher in the front, and an Israeli plane bombing them. At the Indira Gandhi kindergarten, we had to bid good-bye to Gaza, too: Since then, we haven’t been able to cross into the Strip.
    But the children have come to us. In November, 31 children were killed in Gaza. One of them, Ayman al-Mahdi, died in Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer, where he had been rushed in grave condition. Only his uncle was permitted to stay with him during his final days. A fifth-grader, Ayman had been sitting with friends on a bench on a street in Jabalya, right by his school. A bullet fired from a tank struck him. He was just 10 years old.
    IDF troops killed children in the West Bank, too. Jamil Jabaji, a boy who tended horses in the new Askar refugee camp, was shot in the head. He was 14 when he was killed, last December. He and his friends were throwing rocks at the armored vehicle that passed by the camp, located near Nablus. The driver provoked the children, slowing down and speeding up, slowing down and speeding up, until finally a soldier got out, aimed at the boy’s head and fired. Jamil’s horses were left in their stable, and his family was left to mourn.
    And what did 16-year-old Taha al-Jawi do to get himself killed? The IDF claimed that he tried to sabotage the barbed-wire fence surrounding the abandoned Atarot airport; his friends said he was just playing soccer and had gone to chase after the ball. Whatever the circumstances, the response from the soldiers was quick and decisive: a bullet in the leg that caused him to bleed to death, lying in a muddy ditch by the side of the road. Not a word of regret, not a word of condemnation from the IDF spokesman, when we asked for a comment. Live fire directed at unarmed children who weren’t endangering anyone, with no prior warning.
    Abir Aramin was even younger; she was just 11. The daughter of an activist in the Combatants for Peace organization, in January she left her school in Anata and was on the way to buy candy in a little shop. She was fired upon from a Border Police vehicle. Bassam, her father, told us back then with bloodshot eyes and in a strangled voice: “I told myself that I don’t want to take revenge. Revenge will be for this ‘hero,’ who was so ‘threatened’ by my daughter that he shot and killed her, to stand trial for it.” But just a few days ago the authorities announced that the case was being closed: The Border Police apparently acted appropriately.
    “I’m not going to exploit my daughter’s blood for political purposes. This is a human outcry. I’m not going to lose my mind just because I lost my heart,” the grieving father, who has many Israeli friends, also told us.
    In Nablus, we documented the use of children as human shields – the use of the so-called “neighbor procedure” – involving an 11-year-old girl, a 12-year-old boy and a 15-year-old boy. So what if the High Court of Justice has outlawed it? We also recorded the story of the death of baby Khaled, whose parents, Sana and Daoud Fakih, tried to rush him to the hospital in the middle of the night, a time when Palestinian babies apparently mustn’t get sick: The baby died at the checkpoint.
    In Kafr al-Shuhada (the “martyrs’ village”) south of Jenin, in March, 15-year-old Ahmed Asasa was fleeing from soldiers who had entered the village. A sniper’s bullet caught him in the neck.
    Bushra Bargis hadn’t even left her home. In late April she was studying for a big test, notebooks in hand, pacing around her room in the Jenin refugee camp in the early evening, when a sniper shot her in the forehead from quite far away. Her bloodstained notebooks bore witness to her final moments.
    And what about the unborn babies? They weren’t safe either. A bullet in the back of Maha Qatuni, a woman who was seven months pregnant and got up during the night to protect her children in their home, struck her fetus in the womb, shattering its head. The wounded mother lay in the Rafidiya Hospital in Nablus, hooked up to numerous tubes. She was going to name the baby Daoud. Does killing a fetus count as murder? And how “old” was the deceased? He was certainly the youngest of the many children Israel killed in the past year.
    Happy New Year
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    I am going to fax this to Hillary’s senate office tomorrow and ask how she squares her it takes a village to her support for Israel killing children.
    Hillary supports killing children, anyone who suports this Israeli regime and their occupation supports killing children.
    That is a fact, no if’s and’s and but’s. 90% of our congress are child killers.

    Reply

  55. S Brennan says:

    C’mon Steve,
    The Hill & Bill parade are just covering their asses after hearing last weeks vote to attack Iran went over like a lead balloon.
    When Hill & Bill get the nomination through their Machiavellian maneuvers we’ll see more of their whiplash wonkishness. No morals, no spine, just a thirst for power.
    Just what this country needs.

    Reply

  56. JohnH says:

    Carroll: “The idea for Freedom’s Watch was hatched in March at the winter meeting of the Republican Jewish Coalition.” Kind of makes you wonder how much of that money is trickle down from the billions of foreign aid going to Israel. Let’s see. $200 million equates to about 2% of the $10 billion in aid sent during the last four years. And operating AIPAC probably costs another few million per year…
    Ah, the sweet, sweet gravy train.

    Reply

  57. JohnH says:

    “Hillary Clinton needs to apply her ascending political weight to the passage of the Webb resolution. It is not enough to just support a resolution and watch it languish.” I agree.
    Unfortunately, none of the Democratic candidates–I call them Hillary and the Seven Dwarfs–has much to show on their resumes regarding legislative or executive accomplishments. Kucinich probably has the best, and that relates to his experience as Mayor of Cleveland, staring down the bankers and utilities, accepting bankruptcy rather than selling off the municipal electrical utility. Biden and Dodd chair committees. Hillary has Bill covering her back. But accomplishment at the national or global level? Nada. Zip.
    So yes, it would be nice if Hillary could use some of her rising political capital. But I doubt if she has the skills or inclination to successfully move a critical piece of legislation to passage. And frankly, that calls into question her qualifications to be President.

    Reply

  58. Carroll says:

    Speaking of which….Eric Alterman is a excellent example of how worried a lot of Jews are about the uber zionist establishment Jews behind AIPAC and the Iran war march. He takes on the very jewish Freedom Watch.
    http://mediamatters.org/altercation/
    snip…..
    “Just before The New York Times ran this story, I read another one by Phil Weiss in The American Conservative, which is not yet online, that focused on the implications of the Jewishness of the funders of Freedom’s Watch. Think about it. They are extremely wealthy and they are agitating for war by comparing Ahmadinejad to Adolf Hitler. “If Hitler’s warnings were heeded when he wrote ‘Mein Kampf,’ he could have been stopped,” said Bradley Blakeman, 49, the president of Freedom’s Watch and a former deputy assistant to Mr. Bush. “Ahmadinejad is giving all the same kind of warning signs to us, and the region — he wants the destruction of the United States and the destruction of Israel.”
    Excuse me, but what’s Israel got to do with this? Why are you arguing that something is bad for Israel when it’s Americans you are seeking to convince?
    Oh, I see: “The idea for Freedom’s Watch was hatched in March at the winter meeting of the Republican Jewish Coalition in Manalapan, Fla., where Vice President Dick Cheney was the keynote speaker, according to participants.”
    Also, why is it being so secretive about its donors? “One benefactor, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the group was hoping to raise as much as $200 million by November 2008. Raising big money ‘will be easy,’ the benefactor said, adding that several of the founders each wrote a check for $1 million. Mr. Blakeman would not confirm or deny whether any donor gave $1 million, or more, to the organization. Since the group is organized as a tax-exempt organization, it does not have to reveal its donors and it can not engage in certain types of partisan activities that directly support political candidates.”
    Call me a Nervous Jewish Nellie, but I don’t like it when enormously wealthy Jews use their enormous wealth exactly the way anti-Semites have historically tried to accuse them of doing.
    This administration has lied us into one war with the help of some of these same people and it has inspired what many insist are a spate of anti-Semitic accusations against Neocons and others. Just what do they expect from this one?
    We are at war with Iran and they are striking back at us through terrorist acts the world over? How are people supposed to distinguish their dishonesty about Iraq and Iran from their commitment to protecting Israel?
    Oh, right, I forgot. There is no such thing as a conflict between U.S. interests and Israeli interests, period. Well, that settles that.
    To tell you the truth, I’d feel a lot better if these rich folk were volunteering their children to fight in Iraq and Iran rather than just using their money to ensure that other people’s children will have to fight and die there.”

    Reply

  59. PissedOffAmerican says:

    So, which Hillary is acting out of conviction, the AIPAC whore, or the “Oops, my constituents seem to be a little pissed about my vote on the Lieberman/Kyle resolution” flip flopper?
    My bet? It depends on who shes trying to impress at any given moment.

    Reply

  60. Carroll says:

    Posted by DonS at October 1, 2007 09:14 PM
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The dialogue has started…everywhere but congress.
    Since this issue has irritated me considerably since I found out about the extent of the AIPAC meddling in our policy I have follwed public opinion and comments religiously. Trust me, the dam has broken and the public is talking about it. It has been delinked from anti-semitism thanks to AIPAC’s own smearing tactics that backfired and the efforts of some liberal Jews themselves in publicly breaking the taboo.

    Reply

  61. steve duncan says:

    Three aspects of this possible Iran action advocate for its occurrence. One, Bush/Cheney cannot expect a Democratic President to initiate such a campaign. Time is not on Cheney’s side. They feel they must move now. Two, the possibility Bush/Cheney think attacking Iran may actually avert a Democratic Presidency. I don’t discount the “Rally around the President (or the President’s party)” factor even accounting for how badly Bushco has botched the Afghanistan & Iraq campaigns. Three, Bush knows his legacy is hopelessly in tatters. He may feel a successful Iran campaign will rehabilitate it or at least blur memories of Iraq a bit. A botched Iran gambit likely won’t soil it much further. Of course a mistake in Iran will mean lots of people getting killed. That, and running businesses and the government into the ground, is something Bush does prolifically.

    Reply

  62. DonS says:

    AIPAC and its collaborators and thier influence on American politics, need to be defanged,
    Until then, extremist politics will continue to hold sway over the likes of Clinton.
    Short term pronouncements mean little. Separate criticism of extremist power and money from the charge of anti-semetic blackmail and we may have the beginning of a dialogue.
    Contain your enthusiasm.

    Reply

  63. Sister Souljah says:

    Looks like Hillary’s pulling a Sister Souljah on AIPAC.
    Thanks for your donations, and now that I’ve filled my coffers, I’ll stand with the majority of my party on the side of sanity.
    Smart move.

    Reply

  64. Carroll says:

    There have been three attempts to do this that I know of… One by Jones in congress, one in the defense bill, one by Webb….so Hillary, after convening a post debate poll of her advisors, is now going to go against her neo and AIPAC backers by insisting on this?
    We will see how hard she tries to get it through.

    Reply

  65. infoshaman says:

    Jim Webb for Senate majority leader. He’s a fighter!

    Reply

  66. memekiller says:

    Hey, does Hillary read the comments on your blog? I suggested this in the last post.
    So, as you might suspect, I think this is a great idea. This is the only way I see out of this pickle she put herself in, and good lord, if you can’t take a stand to demand that we wait for a competent President to deal with Iran, when can you? When the polls are at 70%?

    Reply

  67. ... says:

    i find it hard to like hilary… she is quintessential politician, going which ever way the wind blows.. that does not command my respect and implies a lack of integrity on her part. coming on the heels of the kyl-lieiberman amendment is why i say this..

    Reply

  68. Kathleen says:

    It’s still pretty straddelllley, for me. Naming the entire armed force of a country a terrorist group, is a bit too sweepingly convenient for back door bullshit. They aren’t going to have to declare war if we can say a terrorist hit us in Iraq.
    It doesn’t work for me that she shilly shallies back and forth on the war and peace thing, without very stringent attention to the nitty-gritties and strictly observed Constitutional processes.
    In any case it doesn’t change my assessment of who I can trust to hold anyone accountable. Calling Darth, Darth and getting a lot of PR mileage is one thing, standing up to Darth and introducing articles of impeachment against him, is another.
    When it comes to Goliath, I’ll take Dennis and his sling shot.
    Now when Demz write and ask for money, I’m instituting my Affirmative Action Program for Underdog Candidates, and sending Kucinich and Gravel each a little check. It’s my Odd Fellows Fund, so to speak. And like Bill Clinton says, it feels so good to give.
    I get more pleasure out of giving to Kucinicha and Gravel at Demz begging for themselves. It’s twisted, I know, but it’s Halloween season and it’s a trickier year than most.
    Call it Revenge of the Nerds. Try it, you’ll like it.

    Reply

  69. Greg Priddy says:

    That’s big news! A major change in emphasis from Hillary Clinton. I hope we see her lending her weight as the Democratic presidential frontrunner to get this passed soon, not just passively supporting it.
    Anyway, thanks Hillary… and Jim!

    Reply

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